Zone1 What exactly did Jesus mean when He said "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"?

[ding]

.yet Darwin insists the is no moral compass that defines evil and good,

There are two components to natural selection; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage. Virtue is the greatest organizing principle. As such virtue will always provide functional advantages. So while Darwinism may have no formal moral compass, nature most certainly does. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the natural outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work through the laws of nature.

 

[ding]

Indeed the Bible defines God as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.....all loving as well as all powerful.

I agree that that is how the authors of the books described God. Reason and experience would agree as those are logical conclusions from the study of creation.

Another problem you have.........this is not heaven....its reality existing on a physical plane with existing laws of physics that regulate that existence, everything dies naturally. Guess what? Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4)

Let me stop you there. I don't really have any problems. You may not agree with me but that isn't a problem for me. I agree this isn't heaven. As near as I can tell this is an alternate reality. Or at least that's the closest I can come to describing a material world that is made up of mind stuff and is materially different (no pun intended) than the real reality which is pure mind stuff.

As for Satan, there are several different beliefs ranging from he doesn't exist to he does exist and has been separated from God and is devoid of good to he works for God to test men by tempting them. To me that question is meaningless though. It doesn't matter which one is the correct belief. Why? Because regardless of whether Satan exists or doesn't exist or works for God doesn't change the fact that man is a rebel. Man is at war with God. Those two statements are true regardless of whether Stan exists or doesn't exist or works for God. So regardless of that question the answer is the same no matter what; we have two choices surrender to God or remain rebels.

 

[ding]

This is confirmed in Scripture (1 John 4:8, Genesis 17:1, Job 42:2, and Matt. 19:26). Yet you just admitted that evil exists in the world. The atheist declares that God cannot be omnipotent...all powerful as the Bible claims, that He is not perfect in goodness/love since as you stated, "He allows evil to exist", He is not omnipotent since He cannot stop evil from existing.....His loving goodness would require Him to stop evil from existing. Since those of Christian Faith declare all 3 are true characteristics of God.....Christians are guilty of promoting a logical fallacy. That about sums up the Atheist argument in a nutshell.

My answer to that question is simpler. God's power isn't put forth to achieve certain outcomes. God's power is put forth to achieve certain outcomes under certain conditions which affect the lives of those who experience it.

 

[ding]

However there is a flaw in this logic or rather lack thereof. The existence of Evil is more of a problem for the atheist than the Christian. Why? Define EVIL without referencing a single line from the Holy Scriptures. There is no logical or rational method for the atheist to define evil. That is if you accept the concept of Evolution as defined by Darwin.

I agree the argument that there can be no God unless everything is perfect is a ridiculous argument on face value. As are most of the arguments against belief in God.

 

[ding]

Darwin concludes within his theory of evolution that (1.) No Gods worth having exist. (2.) No life after death exists. (3.) Therefore, there is no foundation for an ethical code to exist in nature, there is no morality found in nature. (4.) There is no ultimate meaning to life.....you are created through nature, you live, you die....its survival of the fittest to continue the bloodline. (5.) Darwin and most atheists deny that human free will exists.

I'm not certain that's what Darwin concluded. Others may have concluded that from his work, but I don't believe Darwin did. To me the argument that we are only material beings is ridiculous as every single person who has ever lived believed they had spirit while they lived. The only question might be does that spirit continue to exist at death or not. But while alive everyone knows they have spirit. It's what animates them. It's what makes them unique. It's what makes us who we are. As for those that believe natural selection disproves God, I think they got it backwards. Natural selection proves the existence of God. The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

But to your point... yes, if one concludes there is no God - for whatever reason - all those things are true.
Atheism proceeds on the basis that the needs of individuals and society in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts. Atheists see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure.

 

[ding]

If there is no foundation for an ethical code to exist in nature. How Does the atheist declare what's evil and what's not? You would have to declare that the gift of life is evil for bringing us into the world in the first place.............but even Darwin realized that DEATH is a natural thing, as natural as breathing............who would get to decide who gets a miracle and who does not? Choosing one person, one child, one woman, one man over another would make God a liar. God has no respect of person.....God respects only Truth (Romans 2:11). We are commanded to worship in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24)

There absolutely is a natural standard that exists within nature. Nature constantly provides us feedback on our behaviors. We are free to establish any morals we want but we are not free from suffering the consequences from choosing poorly. Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for logical reasons. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

 

[The Duke]

What exactly did Jesus mean when He said "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"?

Well, one thing that comes to mind is this:

Humans do not know the hideousness of Hell that awaits them if they do not repent. Some of us have a glimpse of how hideous it is

See Faustina Diary 741

OMG doesn't begin to say it

You don't even want Nazi Pelousi going to a place like that

Exactly what he said. No need to read further into it.

 

[ding]

God creates and then allows the laws of Physics that He also created to regulate that which is natural.......each natural thing will reproduce each after its own kind (Genesis 1:24-25)..........mankind has been endowed with the gift of Reason, an ability so great and not held by any other species on earth to rationalize his/her own mortality by making free will decisions that effect that mortality every day........thus the person and sometimes others.....those around he or she......are effected by another's decisions, judgments. Some people just continually concentrate on evil always, just as God stated and that made Him repentant (Sorry) that He had ever made man on the earth (Genesis 6:5-6) If man had not been created with the capacity of FREE WILL ..............God could not have been sorry that He created man.....demonstrating that God can't control the thoughts of man who were created in His Image, especially after man disobeyed and gained the knowledge of Sin, man had become as ONE OF US (the Godhead--Genesis 3:22) to know good from evil.........God banned man from the Garden before they could eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.

I agree with a lot of this but I would be reluctant to say God can't do something or that he didn't know exactly what would happen or would be sorry about anything God did.

 

[ding]

Death is not Evil..........Accidents are not Evil, Poor decision making is not evil if its based upon ignorance........weather events are not evil. People die every day, people are killed in accidents every day, people die due to weather events or some other natural events....flooding, snow, storms....etc., Yes.......even Children die every day......its natural.......its not evil or the gift of life itself would be logically EVIL.

I agree. Which is why I repeat what we are told in Genesis that everything God created is good.

No one does evil for the sake of evil. They do evil for the sake of their own good usually at the expense of others. That doesn't make them evil. That just makes them wrong and absent good for that specific thing. It is this belief that makes redemption logical. Of course redemption is only the first logical step towards sanctification.

 

[ding]

The Christian is not promised anything extra in this reality..........the race is run to receive the reward after the race of life is over. EVERYONE DIES, EVERYONE GETS SICK..........even the atheist. God demonstrates His love by allowing us to come to the knowledge of the Truth and save our eternal soul (1 Tim. 2:3-4) God tells us not to be concerned with the Flesh........all things physical were created to decay........but be concerned with He that can destroy the soul.

I agree. That's why I say that God's power isn't put forth to achieve certain outcomes. God's power is put forth to achieve certain outcomes under certain conditions which affect the lives of those who experience it.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Because it all comes down to free will. We are all part and parcel to God meaning that while a part of Him, he also endows us with free will just as all leaves are part of the tree yet each leaf has free will to fall off when it chooses. All living things begin as part of God's domain, but many fall down through forgetfulness of God, bodily identification (ego) or sin to the many lower spheres of existence below him. Every living thing you know here on Earth is in the process of either falling lower, remaining the same or moving back up to be with God again according to their actions in each subsequent life.

I agree with this and have had the same thoughts. But still, you wonder why God doesn't intercede more often. Have you ever prayed for deliverance from some bad situation or person and you prayed like crazy but nothing seemed to happen? I think all of us have been there?

 

[BreezeWood]

Exactly what he said. No need to read further into it.

did you read that in their own handwriting ...

they knew from the beginning their fate at the hands of those who knew exactly what they were doing - and the forgery was written by them to placate their own malicious crime to excuse themselves, who have yet to be brought to justice and continue in their crimes to this day. duke.

 

[toobfreak]

I agree with this and have had the same thoughts.

It wasn't really offered as a theory or opinion.

But still, you wonder why God doesn't intercede more often. Have you ever prayed for deliverance from some bad situation or person and you prayed like crazy but nothing seemed to happen? I think all of us have been there?

It doesn't work that way. It all comes back to free will and karma within material nature. If what you say were true, everyone would just party like it was 1999 then wait for God to come bale you out. Sometimes prayers are answered, just not when or in the way you wanted or expect, and sometimes the answer is just no. Bottom line is these are all arguments created by atheists to rationalize their belief that there is no actual sublime original creator of the phenomenal world.

 

[Clyde 154]

That's not accurate. Good exists. The absence of good (or evil) is compared to good. Goodness is the extant reality that exists. The negation of goodness isn't an extant reality. It's a negation of the extant reality. So when I say evil doesn't exist that doesn't mean that goodness isn't negated. It is. From a convention standpoint that's what we call evil. The importance of which is to properly frame the true nature of existence. The true nature of existence is good. That was the point made in the creation account. Everything God created is good. It's non-negotiable to me.

Good exists? Again........give me an example of GOOD without referencing one passage of scripture. Show me what is defined as GOOD in nature. Instead you cut and paste abstract subjective BS from the NET?

To put it better.......WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION THE AUTHORITY OF GOD (you have no right to question and accuse God -- Romans 9:20) when you blame God as allowing evil when you just admitted that everything God created is GOOD? What God created is indeed GOOD as defined in scripture. (Genesis 1:31).......therefore by your own admission, no one can accuse God of allowing evil or creating evil because what God created was good and pure, until it became corrupted, the fault must therefore be the result of Sin in the World......or as Paul described it...............the fault rests in the free will decision of mankind.

Mankind was created with eternity in mind...God put eternity in the minds of man when he was created (Eccl. 3:11) but man lacks the ability to KNOW the thoughts and mind of God in discovering what God has done from beginning to end. When man was created He did not reside in the world as we know it. God placed man into a special place a Garden of Eden .......man sinned and was removed from this special place where man once had immortality with God taking care of all men's needs...........Man sinned and his punishment resulted in death and suffering at the hands of the god of this world (Satan)...as God exilied man from the Garden and placed guarding angels at its gates to prohibit man from ever entering again and becoming immortal with the knowledge of Good and Evil.....that came from the tree of knowledge. (Genesis 3:24).

We live in the REAL WORLD and we are sentenced by God to earn our living and existence from the sweat of our own brow (Genesis 3:19)...with the end result, man going back to the dust from which he was created....to put it better man is in a state decay from the time he is born into this REAL WORLD.

In the real world.....man is subject to the laws that govern this reality..........but God is indeed love, and inspite of man's sin........God would have all men find salvation by coming to the knowlege of the truth. "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son .......for the sins of this world...." John 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:3-4



"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man (Adam/Eve)......AND DEATH THROUGH SIN.......and so DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN......BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED." -- Romans 5:12 Man is the source of evil because of willful sin. You can't even blame evil on Satan......because Satan has been defeated and must ask permission from God before he can tempt man though sin. Sin comes from free will (Luke 22:31-34).

Man seeks after a Spiritual Kingdom where Good always resides.......eternity begins where the flesh ends (Luke 17:20-22)....the promised reward comes after this race called life is over. (1 Cor. 9:24-27). Until death...........we are all at the mercy of this reality called LIFE.

 

[ding]

Good exists? Again........give me an example of GOOD without referencing one passage of scripture. Show me what is defined as GOOD in nature. Instead you cut and paste abstract subjective BS from the NET?

Any extant virtue is goodness. Charity, kindness, sympathy, honesty, thankfulness, forgiveness, love, etc.

 

[ding]

To put it better.......WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION THE AUTHORITY OF GOD (you have no right to question and accuse God -- Romans 9:20) when you blame God as allowing evil when you just admitted that everything God created is GOOD? What God created is indeed GOOD as defined in scripture. (Genesis 1:31).......therefore by your own admission, no one can accuse God of allowing evil or creating evil because what God created was good and pure, until it became corrupted, the fault must therefore be the result of Sin in the World......or as Paul described it...............the fault rests in the free will decision of mankind.

When did I question the authority of God? I didn't. Apparently you have your panties all wadded up over nothing.

 

[ding]

Mankind was created with eternity in mind...God put eternity in the minds of man when he was created (Eccl. 3:11) but man lacks the ability to KNOW the thoughts and mind of God in discovering what God has done from beginning to end. When man was created He did not reside in the world as we know it. God placed man into a special place a Garden of Eden .......man sinned and was removed from this special place where man once had immortality with God taking care of all men's needs...........Man sinned and his punishment resulted in death and suffering at the hands of the god of this world (Satan)...as God exilied man from the Garden and placed guarding angels at its gates to prohibit man from ever entering again and becoming immortal with the knowledge of Good and Evil.....that came from the tree of knowledge. (Genesis 3:24).

The world is exactly as God knew it would be. Your interpretation of Genesis is flawed if you believe otherwise.

 

[ding]

We live in the REAL WORLD and we are sentenced by God to earn our living and existence from the sweat of our own brow (Genesis 3:19)...with the end result, man going back to the dust from which he was created....to put it better man is in a state decay from the time he is born into this REAL WORLD.

How old do you believe the universe and earth are?

 

[ding]

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man (Adam/Eve)......AND DEATH THROUGH SIN.......and so DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN......BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED." -- Romans 5:12 Man is the source of evil because of willful sin. You can't even blame evil on Satan......because Satan has been defeated and must ask permission from God before he can tempt man though sin. Sin comes from free will (Luke 22:31-34).

So do you believe that if Adam and Eve had never eaten the forbidden fruit, mankind would be entirely different than today?

 

[ding]

Man seeks after a Spiritual Kingdom where Good always resides.......eternity begins where the flesh ends (Luke 17:20-22)....the promised reward comes after this race called life is over. (1 Cor. 9:24-27). Until death...........we are all at the mercy of this reality called LIFE.

Actually life is pretty dang amazing. It's a gift from God. If you don't agree you can always see yourself out.