Zone1 What exactly did Jesus mean when He said "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"?

[ding]

Instead you cut and paste abstract subjective BS from the NET?

What is it that you believe I have cut and pasted from the NET?

 

[Clyde 154]

Once again you attempt to answer...........not with the truth located in the Word of God but ad hominem subjectivity....aka, personal OPINION. Clearly you have been corrupted by some false doctrine that does not take its doctrine from the Word of God but man made opinionated traditions.

There is no interpretation.........the scriptures self interpret when allowed. Private interpretation is forbidden (2 Peter 1:19-21) I presented the Book, Chapter and Verse that demonstrate the fact the world became corrupted because of SIN. As stated.....God was pleased with His creation and mankind and He stated it was VERY GOOD.....not evil, but very good. You cannot project evil due to anything that God created when everything created was "very good".

If.........everything remained VERY GOOD to include the creation of mankind.....please enlighten us as to How God became "REPENTANT" ...i.e, sorry or to turn away..."REGRET"....in the Original Greek........because He had created man upon the earth, and He vowed to remove man from the face of the earth because of the sin that had corrupted His creation. This demonstrates that everything God created was created with free will......even the angels were endowed with free will when they were created by and through Jesus (2 Peter 2:4-9, Col. 1:16)....they sinned by free will.

Clear and unambiguous, "And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him to His heart..............The Lord saw the wickedness was great upon the earth, and the every intention of his (man's) heart was EVIL, continually..........." -- Genesis 6:6-7

Simple, God just declared that man and his thoughts were responsible for EVIL. Why does God not interfere with mankind though some supernatural act such as was used in the 1st century? The supernatural gifts from heaven ceased when the perfect law of liberty was completed.....i.e, the Holy Bible (1 Cor. 13, James 1:25, Jude 3).......Today, God has given us everything that pertains to life and godliness through the knowledge revealed though Christ Jesus(2 Peter 1:3).....the only gifts that man enjoys today are Faith, Hope and Charity, with charity or love being the greatest of the gifts.

Not once in scripture has God used the miraculous to play favorite among men.........God has no respect of person. Of the some 120 examples of the supernatural after creation.........the signs and wonders used by God were always used to confirm that the words being spoken by the Holy Men of God were actually TRUTH from Heaven. The supernatural gifts of the spirit were used to establish doctrine for the infant N.T. church.....but once the church grew and became mature......the need for the miraculous ceased or as Paul stated..................................................

"When I was a child, I spake as a child; I understood as a child; I thought as a child....when I became a man, I put away childish things." -- 1 Cor.13:11

There are a great many children in the world today........PLAYING CHURCH, pretending to be in possession of some supernatural gift of the spirit, when as Peter stated, You have neither lot nor part in the matter of bestowing supernatual gifts through the laying on the hands of an Apostle. (Acts 8:21-23).

 

[Red Front]

There are two components to natural selection; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage. Virtue is the greatest organizing principle. As such virtue will always provide functional advantages. So while Darwinism may have no formal moral compass, nature most certainly does. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the natural outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work through the laws of nature.

So true. Profound.

Patterns of thought and behavior that are conducive to life, "pro-existence", giving life a survival advantage or edge. Empowering life to survive and thrive by adopting a system of ethics, and virtue, in a community of like-minded individuals, committed to a "social contract" (to each other's wellbeing). that is the universal "religion" of God. I don't see God as an individual person as theists do, I see God as REALITY, with all of its laws. God is the state of being conscious and that cosmic "nervous system" that gave rise to organic life. God is everything, all things, as they truly are, the good, the bad and the ugly. That which lacks virtue or morality, unable to empathize or cooperate with others, perishes. It is replaced with that which can live in a community, and commit itself to the survival and "good" of the "other".

I wouldn't identify myself as an atheist, I'm more of an agnostic who leans towards pantheism. I believe moral atheists are superior to theists, in their worldview and character. They're not moral in order to live forever or get some reward after they're dead, they're ethical and even kind, because they have a sense that that is what is correct. Goodness for goodness sake, not to "inherit eternal life" or avoid the "lake of fire". Many American Evangelicals see no value in being moral apart from their mythology. Without the divine offer of immortality, they would become nihilistic and a danger to themselves and others. Some immature atheists also become nihilistic and destructive, but those who don't, I see as morally and ontologically superior to theists, who only do what is right in order to be "saved" from hell or "live forever". I see more virtue and maturity in those who don't believe in life after death or in a heavenly sugar daddy, and yet act ethically and are a pleasure to meet and socialize with. Atheists who are humane and friendly, more down to earth, are so much better than these self-righteous, delusional religious fundamentalists. They're insufferable and undermine human progress.

The good atheist's commitment to virtue comes from an inherent sense of right and wrong, similar to sexual orientation or some other natural orientation. The human social animal draws its identity and purpose in relation to others hence evolving an "orientation" towards morality or patterns of behavior that contribute to its personal survival and that of its family and "tribe" i.e. community. Humans don't need religion to be moral, they just need the natural impulse to live. Life itself becomes the highest ideal and principle, not an imaginary god entity or divine-person in heaven standing over everyone with a Louisville Slugger.

 

[Clyde 154]

What is it that you believe I have cut and pasted from the NET?

Your obvious use of "hyperbole" in the attempt to use many words while not stating anything of value in relation to the actual content of the Holy Scriptures. Better known as DEFLECTION. It appears that you searched the web in order to find some intelligent attempt to defend your argument instead of using the Word of God.

 

[ding]

I believe moral atheists are superior to theists, in their worldview and character. They're not moral in order to live forever or get some reward after they're dead, they're ethical and even kind, because they have a sense that that is what is correct.

Moral atheism is an oxymoron given that atheism proceeds on the belief that the lives of individuals and society in general are driven solely on the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

 

[ding]

Many American Evangelicals see no value in being moral apart from their mythology. Without the divine offer of immortality, they would become nihilistic and a danger to themselves and others.

Not the ones I personally know. How many do you know personally?

 

[ding]

I see more virtue and maturity in those who don't believe in life after death or in a heavenly sugar daddy, and yet act ethically and are a pleasure to meet and socialize with. Atheists who are humane and friendly, more down to earth, are so much better than these self-righteous, delusional religious fundamentalists. They're insufferable and undermine human progress.

I don't personally know any Christians who believe in a heavenly sugar daddy. As for undermining human progress I think you need to go back and review history from a more balanced perspective. By any objective measure Christianity has been a force for good and responsible for human progress.

 

[Red Front]

Moral atheism is an oxymoron given that atheism proceeds on the belief that the lives of individuals and society in general are driven solely on the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

No not really. If we are "driven" by our needs to a certain extent that doesn't make us immoral or uncivilized. Christians are also "driven" or compelled by their needs. You essentially said nothing.

 

[ding]

The good atheist's commitment to virtue comes from an inherent sense of right and wrong, similar to sexual orientation or some other natural orientation. The human social animal draws its identity and purpose in relation to others hence evolving an "orientation" towards morality or patterns of behavior that contribute to its personal survival and that of its family and "tribe" i.e. community. Humans don't need religion to be moral, they just need the natural impulse to live. Life itself becomes the highest ideal and principle, not an imaginary god entity or divine-person in heaven standing over everyone with a Louisville Slugger.

Again... atheism proceeds in all its manifestations that happiness comes from the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts. That's it. That's all there is.... satisfaction of material needs and satisfaction of primitive instincts.

 

[ding]

No not really. If we are "driven" by our needs to a certain extent that doesn't make us immoral or uncivilized. Christians are also "driven" or compelled by their needs. You essentially said nothing.

No. Christians believe they are more than just matter and recognize a higher nature in man. As such they believe there is more to life than the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

 

[ding]

Once again you attempt to answer...........not with the truth located in the Word of God but ad hominem subjectivity....aka, personal OPINION. Clearly you have been corrupted by some false doctrine that does not take its doctrine from the Word of God but man made opinionated traditions.

There is no interpretation.........the scriptures self interpret when allowed. Private interpretation is forbidden (2 Peter 1:19-21) I presented the Book, Chapter and Verse that demonstrate the fact the world became corrupted because of SIN. As stated.....God was pleased with His creation and mankind and He stated it was VERY GOOD.....not evil, but very good. You cannot project evil due to anything that God created when everything created was "very good".

If.........everything remained VERY GOOD to include the creation of mankind.....please enlighten us as to How God became "REPENTANT" ...i.e, sorry or to turn away..."REGRET"....in the Original Greek........because He had created man upon the earth, and He vowed to remove man from the face of the earth because of the sin that had corrupted His creation. This demonstrates that everything God created was created with free will......even the angels were endowed with free will when they were created by and through Jesus (2 Peter 2:4-9, Col. 1:16)....they sinned by free will.

Clear and unambiguous, "And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him to His heart..............The Lord saw the wickedness was great upon the earth, and the every intention of his (man's) heart was EVIL, continually..........." -- Genesis 6:6-7

Simple, God just declared that man and his thoughts were responsible for EVIL. Why does God not interfere with mankind though some supernatural act such as was used in the 1st century? The supernatural gifts from heaven ceased when the perfect law of liberty was completed.....i.e, the Holy Bible (1 Cor. 13, James 1:25, Jude 3).......Today, God has given us everything that pertains to life and godliness through the knowledge revealed though Christ Jesus(2 Peter 1:3).....the only gifts that man enjoys today are Faith, Hope and Charity, with charity or love being the greatest of the gifts.

Not once in scripture has God used the miraculous to play favorite among men.........God has no respect of person. Of the some 120 examples of the supernatural after creation.........the signs and wonders used by God were always used to confirm that the words being spoken by the Holy Men of God were actually TRUTH from Heaven. The supernatural gifts of the spirit were used to establish doctrine for the infant N.T. church.....but once the church grew and became mature......the need for the miraculous ceased or as Paul stated..................................................

"When I was a child, I spake as a child; I understood as a child; I thought as a child....when I became a man, I put away childish things." -- 1 Cor.13:11

There are a great many children in the world today........PLAYING CHURCH, pretending to be in possession of some supernatural gift of the spirit, when as Peter stated, You have neither lot nor part in the matter of bestowing supernatual gifts through the laying on the hands of an Apostle. (Acts 8:21-23).

No idea what you are talking about here. Can you link this to a specific post so I can see what you are trying to rebut?

 

[Red Front]

I don't personally know any Christians who believe in a heavenly sugar daddy. As for undermining human progress I think you need to go back and review history from a more balanced perspective. By any objective measure Christianity has been a force for good and responsible for human progress.

To the extent that it civilized society it was an instrument of positive change, especially when the alternative was savagery. But now in the modern age, we no longer need mythology to scare us into civility, we should be civil irrespective of whether there is or isn't a god in heaven. Human life itself and whatever contributes to its survival and flourishing should be held as the highest objective and principle. Our ideals should be grounded on what best contributes to the well-being and success of human life and to a certain extent, all other life as well, provided it's not in a position to injure or kill us.

 

[ding]

Your obvious use of "hyperbole" in the attempt to use many words while not stating anything of value in relation to the actual content of the Holy Scriptures. Better known as DEFLECTION. It appears that you searched the web in order to find some intelligent attempt to defend your argument instead of using the Word of God.

Can you point to a specific post or quote what I actually wrote that you believe was copy and pasted from the net?

 

[Red Front]

No. Christians believe they are more than just matter and recognize a higher nature in man. As such they believe there is more to life than the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

Material needs are important, but ethical atheists, people in general, whether they're religious or not, don't define their humanity or life in terms of simply satisfying their physical needs. Being human is a bit more complex than that. You're resorting to a very simplistic definition of secular, humanistic values.

 

[ding]

To the extent that it civilized society it was an instrument of positive change, especially when the alternative was savagery. But now in the modern age, we no longer need mythology to scare us into civility, we should be civil irrespective of whether there is or isn't a god in heaven. Human life itself and whatever contributes to its survival and flourishing should be held as the highest objective and principle. Our ideals should be grounded on what best contributes to the well-being and success of human life and to a certain extent, all other life as well, provided it's not in a position to injure or kill us.

I disagree. Christianity - as do all of the major religions - serve a purpose. If they didn't they would have been discarded long ago according to Darwinian principles.

I also disagree with your characterization of mythology and your conclusion that it is used to scare people. That hasn't been my experience at all. In fact, my interpretations and experiences have been quite the opposite.

 

[ding]

Material needs are important, but ethical atheists, people in general, whether they're religious or not, don't define their humanity or life in terms of simply satisfying their physical needs. Being human is a bit more complex than that. You're resorting to a very simplistic definition of secular, humanistic values.

The behaviors and actions of militant atheists regimes of the 20th century say otherwise.

 

[Red Front]

Again... atheism proceeds in all its manifestations that happiness comes from the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts. That's it. That's all there is.... satisfaction of material needs and satisfaction of primitive instincts.

No it doesn't, that's your false characterization of what most atheists and humanists believe. Material needs are important but there is more to human life and nature than simply meeting one's need to eat, have shelter, and procreate. There is a need for human interaction and we can draw value and much satisfaction from our relationships, that aren't based on sex or taking anything material or physical from others. We draw satisfaction and value from human contact, and our relationships, with both humans and other animals. We find value and find much satisfaction, pleasure, and happiness, in our hobbies, our careers, our mission, our art, philosophy, exploration, and education..etc. Your definition of humanity is quite shallow and simplistic. Should anyone expect anything else than that from religious fundamentalists? No.

 

[Red Front]

I disagree. Christianity - as do all of the major religions - serve a purpose. If they didn't they would have been discarded long ago according to Darwinian principles.

I also disagree with your characterization of mythology and your conclusion that it is used to scare people. That hasn't been my experience at all. In fact, my interpretations and experiences have been quite the opposite.

Mostly a coping mechanism to keep some people from losing their minds with fear and becoming destructive. It serves a purpose but we should grow out of it and become mature adults.

 

[BreezeWood]

To the extent that it civilized society it was an instrument of positive change, especially when the alternative was savagery. But now in the modern age, we no longer need mythology to scare us into civility, we should be civil irrespective of whether there is or isn't a god in heaven. Human life itself and whatever contributes to its survival and flourishing should be held as the highest objective and principle. Our ideals should be grounded on what best contributes to the well-being and success of human life and to a certain extent, all other life as well, provided it's not in a position to injure or kill us.

true for the depraved who use mythology for nefarious purposes ...

the art is meant to explain the metaphysical which includes both our physiology and the spiritual content that is its guide, both of which occurred simultaneously on planet earth in the form of a self asserting life form.

religious fanatics enjoy nothing more than corrupting and debasing the pleasantries of mythological explanations to rather suite their own depraved religious ineptitude's.

 

[ding]

No it doesn't, that's your false characterization of what most atheists and humanists believe. Material needs are important but there is more to human life and nature than simply meeting one's need to eat, have shelter, and procreate. There is a need for human interaction and we can draw value and much satisfaction from our relationships, that aren't based on sex or taking anything material or physical from others. We draw satisfaction and value from human contact, and our relationships, with both humans and other animals. We find value and find much satisfaction, pleasure, and happiness, in our hobbies, our careers, our mission, our art, philosophy, exploration, and education..etc. Your definition of humanity is quite shallow and simplistic. Should anyone expect anything else than that from religious fundamentalists? No.

Atheists only believe in the material. They don't believe they have a spirit inside them that animates them. Love to them is just an electro-chemical reaction in the brain that only exists because of evolutionary forces. They believe there is no meaning in life because there is no higher purpose in life than satisfying their material needs and satisfying their animalistic urges.