Zone1 What is a Jew?

[rosends]

So if people do not need to convert to Judaism, how can they be saved? Do Jews just not care about the eternal souls of others?

What do you mean "saved"? That isn't a Jewish concept.

 

[Meriweather]

Well of course only one can be right.

Either Jesus is the messiah, or he is not. Personally I look the texts and accounts with logic and reason in order to decide which is right.

It is not about hating and demeaning all the others. It’s about speaking the truth.

Jesus has the term "messiah" because he was appointed a commission by God. He noted many times he was not the political Messiah Jews began expecting after the end of David's reign. Jesus said it was he or whom Moses spoke.

Following Jesus' way is a choice. This choice does not give any of us permission to refrain from respecting and honoring other choices.

 

[Meriweather]

So if people do not need to convert to Judaism, how can they be saved? Do Jews just not care about the eternal souls of others?

Those who observe the Noachide laws are in good shape. It was not mandated that the rest of us adhere to all the other disciplines God assigned to the Jews.

 

[Meriweather]

What do you mean "saved"? That isn't a Jewish concept.

Nor is it a Catholic concept. Some non-Catholic Christians believe once a person accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior one is assured of a heavenly afterlife.

 

[Dadoalex]

Well of course only one can be right.

Either Jesus is the messiah, or he is not. Personally I look the texts and accounts with logic and reason in order to decide which is right.

It is not about hating and demeaning all the others. It’s about speaking the truth.

Sure it is...your truth.

 

[alang1216]

He hunted down and killed what he and the Pope considered to be heretics. True Christians were also killed. The Holy Roman church is thought to be the agent of Satan, and Charlemagne and other inquisitors the 'flood' of Revelation 12, cast out to destroy the young church. It is noteworthy that a flood destroys everything in its path. Therefore, not knowing who and where the true church actually was the Devil decided to just persecute or kill everyone not a Catholic.

You have yet to say what is the 'true' church today or who is a 'true' Christian today?

 

[Woodznutz]

You have yet to say what is the 'true' church today or who is a 'true' Christian today?

The church is a spiritual organism, not an identifiable organization.
We are "the salt of the earth", and likely scattered all over the place.

 

[theHawk]

What do you mean "saved"? That isn't a Jewish concept.

Essentially being allowed into heaven.

Since the fall of man (Adam and Eve), and mankind fell into sin, those sins need to be paid for. When people died, good and bad went to Sheol, translated as Hades in Greek. But Sheol itself was described as having different areas, where the bad went and where the good went to (Abraham’s bosom).

Does it not seem odd to you that good people would go to such a place, instead of heaven? This place is also described as having doors that cannot be breached.

Being “saved” means being saved from Sheol. For even the righteous are in Sheol, not heaven. For no one had paid for their sins, as no man is without sin. It wasn’t until Jesus was crucified and descended into Sheol was that debt paid, and those barred gates were opened. The gates to heaven.

Now, ever since Jesus came and gave us the New Covenant, that is our only way to have our debt paid. Now when we die, even if righteous and no mortal sins, we do not need to wait around in Abraham’s bosom, we either go to heaven, or possibly purgatory(and heaven afterwards), or eternal damnation in hell.

 

[rosends]

Essentially being allowed into heaven.

Since the fall of man (Adam and Eve), and mankind fell into sin, those sins need to be paid for. When people died, good and bad went to Sheol, translated as Hades in Greek. But Sheol itself was described as having different areas, where the bad went and where the good went to (Abraham’s bosom).

Does it not seem odd to you that good people would go to such a place, instead of heaven? This place is also described as having doors that cannot be breached.

Being “saved” means being saved from Sheol. For even the righteous are in Sheol, not heaven. For no one had paid for their sins, as no man is without sin. It wasn’t until Jesus was crucified and descended into Sheol was that debt paid, and those barred gates were opened. The gates to heaven.

Now, ever since Jesus came and gave us the New Covenant, that is our only way to have our debt paid. Now when we die, even if righteous and no mortal sins, we do not need to wait around in Abraham’s bosom, we either go to heaven, or possibly purgatory(and heaven afterwards), or eternal damnation in hell.

But you are starting with concepts that aren't part of Judaism. Judaism sees that most everyone (eventually) gets into heaven and that mankind didn't fall into sin, so there is no idea of "salvation" from that. The idea of She'ol as you describe it is likewise not from within Jewish texts. The word is found but the meaning is not explored and Jewish texts make no reference to doors.

So understanding that you are contextualizing your vision of the fate of man through your Christian lens, I how you can understand that someone not looking at things in that way will not have the same preset notions that you have. Judaism rejects your idea of "saved," of "Jesus paying for anything or of Jesus' value at all. Judaism does not have a "new" covenant and doesn't have purgatory. Your confusion at what happens within the Jewish system is caused by your needing to see everything in light of a Christian theology.

 

[seaofnails]

.
What exactly the majority of Jews believe is going to be a faith from a very manipulated race of people.

for the last 2000 + years the Jewish people who refused to convert to Roman Catholicism were literally depicted and treated in the most horrible way, they were treated like animals, rounded up and tortured, butchered and slaughtered by the millions, they were driven out from their homes repeatedly in nearly every part of the world into harsh horrible environments and stripped of every human right you can imagine.

Early from the third century The Catholic Church began its persecution of Jews - in 315 — Constantine begins edits against the Jews and denounces them as Christ killers

in 337 — Constantius, his son, expands anti-Jewish legislation; Jews are labeled " a pernicious sect " = harmful " destructive " sect.

for 2000 years, up until WWll - the Jewish people had been living under horrible terrorism, persecution, these historical accounts can be seen here

Click Here

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

www.simpletoremember.com

Simply because they refused to accept Roman Catholicism,

Remember in WWll, - 6 - 8 million Jews were slaughtered, in many Catholic Countries, in fact the Vatican claims that it was involved in negotiations with the Nazi's in Italy in attempting to separate and save Jews in Italy who had been converted to Catholic faith - but there was no saving nor safety for Jews who were not Catholic converts - they were shipped out of Italy and sent to die.

In conclusion, not even a complete single generation has yet passed, just 78 years have passed since that the Jewish race were being mass slaughtered in WWll.

so....... everything regarding the Jewish peoples today is going to be a very manipulated condition ( just 78 years ago ) nearly the entire civilization of the entire Hebrew race were being butchered and slaughter like animals, - this went on for 2000 years of persecution from the Roman Catholic world, not even a single generation has yet passed.

their very bible translations into other languages are a very manipulated condition, their outward display of morals and sexuality and ethics is very manipulated.

the safest and most security for the Jew today can be achieved by things such as

1. producing bible translations into other languages that match up - batch up - perfectly to the Trinitarian translations -

2. conducting an American gay pride parade in downtown Jerusalem

The Jerusalem gay pride parade is an annual pride parade taking place in Jerusalem.

they have come to realize what is important to the perverted Trinitarian world and have found that this keeps their children and families safe and secure - The Catholic and Protestant world sees a throng of Jewish people running around committing depraved acts of perversity - but their Bible translations are batching up * matching up with the Trinitarian translations - the Pope and Trinitarian leaders simply see no harm in this, these Jews are closely resembling their very own society and not creating problems in easily disproving their translations of the Old Testament.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

"Jew" is short for Judah. The Jews are the descendants of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel

 

[rosends]

"Jew" is short for Judah. The Jews are the descendants of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel

Jew is an English word that developed from earlier (Germanic and pre-Germanic) words leading to Juden. It stems from "Judean" which is related to the Hebrew "Yehudi" which means "of Judah." The Judah, though, is the southern kingdom of Judah (as opposed to the northern kingdom of Israel - there was a split after Solomon's reign). That kingdom had in it primarily members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a bunch from Levi and a smattering of remnants from other tribes who had escaped into the south when the north was besieged. [note, if you will, the description of Mordechai in the scroll of Esther -- he is written as "Mordechai the Yehudi" but is listed as being from the tribe of Benjamin]. So while many of the current population of Jews descend from the tribe of Judah, not all do.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Jew is an English word that developed from earlier (Germanic and pre-Germanic) words leading to Juden. It stems from "Judean" which is related to the Hebrew "Yehudi" which means "of Judah." The Judah, though, is the southern kingdom of Judah (as opposed to the northern kingdom of Israel - there was a split after Solomon's reign). That kingdom had in it primarily members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a bunch from Levi and a smattering of remnants from other tribes who had escaped into the south when the north was besieged. [note, if you will, the description of Mordechai in the scroll of Esther -- he is written as "Mordechai the Yehudi" but is listed as being from the tribe of Benjamin]. So while many of the current population of Jews descend from the tribe of Judah, not all do.

Yep. Some Levi and Benjamin. Overwhelmingly Judah though

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

But you are starting with concepts that aren't part of Judaism. Judaism sees that most everyone (eventually) gets into heaven and that mankind didn't fall into sin, so there is no idea of "salvation" from that. The idea of She'ol as you describe it is likewise not from within Jewish texts. The word is found but the meaning is not explored and Jewish texts make no reference to doors.

So understanding that you are contextualizing your vision of the fate of man through your Christian lens, I how you can understand that someone not looking at things in that way will not have the same preset notions that you have. Judaism rejects your idea of "saved," of "Jesus paying for anything or of Jesus' value at all. Judaism does not have a "new" covenant and doesn't have purgatory. Your confusion at what happens within the Jewish system is caused by your needing to see everything in light of a Christian theology.

I can see clearly that theHawk is seeing the answer to “What is a Jew?” theologically and very narrowly from his own (Christian?) preconceptions. I appreciate rosends pointing this out here.

But rosends ’ very reasonable response to theHawk , though it makes sense to me (as far as I understand it), seems primarily a theological answer. I’m sure he knows this and could answer theHawk in many different ways. He said as much earlier in comment #83 to me.

My own experience talking to modern Jews (at least the more or less secular ones I grew up with) is that theological questions are not central to their consciousness of themselves. Indeed, many of my culturally “Christian” friends also are not very concerned with theological matters.

Maybe this is just because I mostly lived in big cities where no single Church or Synagogue predominated. Or because the times were different in the 60s when I grew up. Or because I was mostly only interested in theological issues as they seemed to more or less directly influence people’s individual personality or group culture.

 

[theHawk]

But you are starting with concepts that aren't part of Judaism. Judaism sees that most everyone (eventually) gets into heaven and that mankind didn't fall into sin, so there is no idea of "salvation" from that. The idea of She'ol as you describe it is likewise not from within Jewish texts. The word is found but the meaning is not explored and Jewish texts make no reference to doors.

So understanding that you are contextualizing your vision of the fate of man through your Christian lens, I how you can understand that someone not looking at things in that way will not have the same preset notions that you have. Judaism rejects your idea of "saved," of "Jesus paying for anything or of Jesus' value at all. Judaism does not have a "new" covenant and doesn't have purgatory. Your confusion at what happens within the Jewish system is caused by your needing to see everything in light of a Christian theology.

If there is no need for salvation then why did God not restore man into paradise?
In Genesis man is expelled from paradise, as he chooses to sin against God. If there is no need to pay for these sins, why haven’t we been restored to the status that Adam was in before the fall? Why did Jews need to sacrifice a lamb in those old rituals?

 

[theHawk]

.
What exactly the majority of Jews believe is going to be a faith from a very manipulated race of people.

for the last 2000 + years the Jewish people who refused to convert to Roman Catholicism were literally depicted and treated in the most horrible way, they were treated like animals, rounded up and tortured, butchered and slaughtered by the millions, they were driven out from their homes repeatedly in nearly every part of the world into harsh horrible environments and stripped of every human right you can imagine.

Early from the third century The Catholic Church began its persecution of Jews - in 315 — Constantine begins edits against the Jews and denounces them as Christ killers

in 337 — Constantius, his son, expands anti-Jewish legislation; Jews are labeled " a pernicious sect " = harmful " destructive " sect.

for 2000 years, up until WWll - the Jewish people had been living under horrible terrorism, persecution, these historical accounts can be seen here

Click Here

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

www.simpletoremember.com

Simply because they refused to accept Roman Catholicism,

Remember in WWll, - 6 - 8 million Jews were slaughtered, in many Catholic Countries, in fact the Vatican claims that it was involved in negotiations with the Nazi's in Italy in attempting to separate and save Jews in Italy who had been converted to Catholic faith - but there was no saving nor safety for Jews who were not Catholic converts - they were shipped out of Italy and sent to die.

In conclusion, not even a complete single generation has yet passed, just 78 years have passed since that the Jewish race were being mass slaughtered in WWll.

so....... everything regarding the Jewish peoples today is going to be a very manipulated condition ( just 78 years ago ) nearly the entire civilization of the entire Hebrew race were being butchered and slaughter like animals, - this went on for 2000 years of persecution from the Roman Catholic world, not even a single generation has yet passed.

their very bible translations into other languages are a very manipulated condition, their outward display of morals and sexuality and ethics is very manipulated.

the safest and most security for the Jew today can be achieved by things such as

1. producing bible translations into other languages that match up - batch up - perfectly to the Trinitarian translations -

2. conducting an American gay pride parade in downtown Jerusalem

The Jerusalem gay pride parade is an annual pride parade taking place in Jerusalem.

they have come to realize what is important to the perverted Trinitarian world and have found that this keeps their children and families safe and secure - The Catholic and Protestant world sees a throng of Jewish people running around committing depraved acts of perversity - but their Bible translations are batching up * matching up with the Trinitarian translations - the Pope and Trinitarian leaders simply see no harm in this, these Jews are closely resembling their very own society and not creating problems in easily disproving their translations of the Old Testament.

Yes of course, Jews are the only persecuted people in history. As if they didn’t help the Romans hunt down the early Christians.

 

[rosends]

If there is no need for salvation then why did God not restore man into paradise?
In Genesis man is expelled from paradise, as he chooses to sin against God. If there is no need to pay for these sins, why haven’t we been restored to the status that Adam was in before the fall? Why did Jews need to sacrifice a lamb in those old rituals?

There is no salvation but man is separated from Eden because the world is not set up for that next stage. Mankind changed after the knowledge of evil was incorporated into man's being so now we have to rise above that temptation to do evil and fix ourselves and our world.

In terms of paying for sin, we have to recognize that we make mistakes and have to improve. Part of that process of returning to God included, in biblical and temple times, offering certain sacrifices. Now, we have prayer to accomplish this, but this is only one small part of that process.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

If there is no need for salvation then why did God not restore man into paradise?
In Genesis man is expelled from paradise, as he chooses to sin against God. If there is no need to pay for these sins, why haven’t we been restored to the status that Adam was in before the fall? Why did Jews need to sacrifice a lamb in those old rituals?

The person you're arguing with doesn't understand the purpose of the Passover. The vast majority of Jews completely missed the lesson from this yearly rutual

 

[alang1216]

The church is a spiritual organism, not an identifiable organization.
We are "the salt of the earth", and likely scattered all over the place.

Ahhhh. The true church is the one you're a member of. Got it.

 

[rosends]

The person you're arguing with doesn't understand the purpose of the Passover. The vast majority of Jews completely missed the lesson from this yearly rutual

actually, the Jews to whom the Exodus occurred and who were commanded to observe the festival understand it way better than the johnny-come-latelies who have decided that it means something different to validate their own separate theology.

Can you imagine what you would say if a Muslim commented that Christians don't understand Easter and get all the wrong messages from it because they think it has to do with Jesus and resurrection? Or how an American would feel if a Russian said "your constitution doesn't mean what you think it does because it is actually supporting the Russian system"? This is the saddest form of attempted arrogance.