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So, which is it? Prayer actually accomplishes something, or prayer just makes you feel better? Because, if it is the former, I am still waiting for someone to tell me what that is. If it is the latter, I stand by my previous statement.There are some that believe it does, so, I'm of the thought anything is possible...Nothing. But, why don't they just say that. Why do so many theists have to pretend that they are actually accomplishing something with prayer? See, that is my problem. If the purpose is "It makes me feel better", okay. But, just say that. Don't try to pretend that prayer actually serves a demonstrable function, or has any actual effect on the events about which one is praying.It makes people feel better
What's your issue with it?
Unless you sit on your ass praying for things to be provided to you...that's just being lazy
And, it's interesting that you mention "praying for things to be provided for you". That is another problem I have with prayer; it denies people the ability to be proud of their accomplishments. I mean, I need a job. So, I go to my parishioners, and they all "pray over me" that I get a job. Then I go out, put in applications, do job interviews, impress potential employers, and get a job. Yay, me! Right? WRONG!!! No, I, and all my parishioners "give God the glory":, and pretend that their stupid prayer was the reason I found a job. REALLY?!?!?
You see, if you want to pray because it "makes people feel better", that's great. You do that. But please don't pretend that it actually accomplishes something, and please don't give prayer the credit for my hard fucking work!
So, which is it? Prayer actually accomplishes something, or prayer just makes you feel better? Because, if it is the former, I am still waiting for someone to tell me what that is. If it is the latter, I stand by my previous statement.There are some that believe it does, so, I'm of the thought anything is possible...Nothing. But, why don't they just say that. Why do so many theists have to pretend that they are actually accomplishing something with prayer? See, that is my problem. If the purpose is "It makes me feel better", okay. But, just say that. Don't try to pretend that prayer actually serves a demonstrable function, or has any actual effect on the events about which one is praying.It makes people feel better
What's your issue with it?
Unless you sit on your ass praying for things to be provided to you...that's just being lazy
And, it's interesting that you mention "praying for things to be provided for you". That is another problem I have with prayer; it denies people the ability to be proud of their accomplishments. I mean, I need a job. So, I go to my parishioners, and they all "pray over me" that I get a job. Then I go out, put in applications, do job interviews, impress potential employers, and get a job. Yay, me! Right? WRONG!!! No, I, and all my parishioners "give God the glory":, and pretend that their stupid prayer was the reason I found a job. REALLY?!?!?
You see, if you want to pray because it "makes people feel better", that's great. You do that. But please don't pretend that it actually accomplishes something, and please don't give prayer the credit for my hard fucking work!
Depends on the person.
Do you want hard and fast results it works?
If someone gave you an example you'd just say it was coincidence....
I do have to say, if God can cure people through prayer, why can't he replace limbs?
I will pray for you to gain wisdom.Because you know they are accomplishing many things.Nothing. But, why don't they just say that. Why do so many theists have to pretend that they are actually accomplishing something with prayer? See, that is my problem. If the purpose is "It makes me feel better", okay. But, just say that. Don't try to pretend that prayer actually serves a demonstrable function, or has any actual effect on the events about which one is praying.It makes people feel better
What's your issue with it?
Unless you sit on your ass praying for things to be provided to you...that's just being lazy
That’s what drives you crazy. You want to join in but your afraid to.
"Because you know they are accomplishing many things. "
He specifically said he doesn't know or believe that.
How many lies can you squeeze into this one thread today? Are you going for some kind of record?
From a purely scientific standpoint, yes, to a degree. Prayer is a way of focusing mental energy not only in the conscious but also the subconscious and unconscious minds, focusing the mind focuses the body towards a specific goal. Does it work 100% of the time? Of course not, depends on the individual.Number one, I read the links, I know the controversy involved with different findings which is why I included a link to the whole Google search, you know scientific pros and cons, something you're probably not all that familiar with.Here, you're referring specifically to the type of prayer that I was excluding from my question. "75 percent of Americans believe that prayer is an important part of daily life." I'm not talking about daily, ritualistic prayer.5 Scientifically Supported Benefits of PrayerThis is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
You probably should have actaully read this link:
By the end of 26 weeks, a primary endpoint had occurred in 25.6% of patients in the prayer group and in 29.3% of patients in the control group. The difference was not statistically significant. The results remained nonsignificant when data were analyzed separately for high- and low-risk patients. Thus, this study showed that, as delivered in this study, intercessory prayer did not influence the 26-week outcome after discharge from a coronary care unit.So, in the first two studies, prayer was shown to have negligible, or even deleterious effect, and in the third, the methodology was extremely suspect. So, basically, these studies indicate that, objectively, prayer seems to have no positive effect, at all.
----------------------------------------
In the two groups that did not know for certain whether or not they were being prayed for, complications occurred in 52% of patients who received intercessory prayer and in 51% of those who did not. In contrast, complications occurred in a significantly larger proportion of patients (59%) who knew for certain that they were being prayed for. Major events and 30-day mortality rates, however, were similar across the three groups.
This study therefore showed that remote intercessory prayer did not improve outcomes after coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In fact, the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a slightly but significantly higher rate of postsurgical complications.
-----------------------------------------
Some points about this study are worth noting. The differences between groups, although significantly favoring patients for whom prayer was offered, were very small; the medians of the two groups differed by a small margin. Thus, the significance of the findings depended heavily upon the outliers who skewed the sample. Next, no attempt was made to compare for unusual biases, such as day of admission and discharge. It is conceivable, for example, that patients admitted toward the end of the week may have been investigated and treated more slowly and those due for discharge toward the end of the week may have been retained until the start of the next week.
And, again, this is talking about the practice of daily, ritual prayer, which is specifically what I indicated was not to what I was referring.
Now I was simply pointing out studies that state both positive and negative, as expected you keyed in on only the negative......... That just proved confirmation bias........ Thanks for your participation.
Well, he apecifically said he knows prayer can make people feel better. And a better state of mind can lead to better recovery from injury or illness. Is that your point?
This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
I'm not sure if he's truly asking a question that he wants an honest answer for or (more likely) simply venting out a rant based on his bias as is plainly obvious in his phraseology and use of specific descriptors. That's not the sign of an open mind.This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
Why does it matter? I mean if your secure in your beliefs, why bother?
I'm not sure if he's truly asking a question that he wants an honest answer for or (more likely) simply venting out a rant based on his bias as is plainly obvious in his phraseology and use of specific descriptors. That's not the sign of an open mind.This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
Why does it matter? I mean if your secure in your beliefs, why bother?
Yeah, that's kinda what I said all along. I get that praying makes me feel better, and positive outlook affects recover, etc.From a purely scientific standpoint, yes, to a degree. Prayer is a way of focusing mental energy not only in the conscious but also the subconscious and unconscious minds, focusing the mind focuses the body towards a specific goal. Does it work 100% of the time? Of course not, depends on the individual.Number one, I read the links, I know the controversy involved with different findings which is why I included a link to the whole Google search, you know scientific pros and cons, something you're probably not all that familiar with.Here, you're referring specifically to the type of prayer that I was excluding from my question. "75 percent of Americans believe that prayer is an important part of daily life." I'm not talking about daily, ritualistic prayer.5 Scientifically Supported Benefits of PrayerThis is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
You probably should have actaully read this link:
By the end of 26 weeks, a primary endpoint had occurred in 25.6% of patients in the prayer group and in 29.3% of patients in the control group. The difference was not statistically significant. The results remained nonsignificant when data were analyzed separately for high- and low-risk patients. Thus, this study showed that, as delivered in this study, intercessory prayer did not influence the 26-week outcome after discharge from a coronary care unit.So, in the first two studies, prayer was shown to have negligible, or even deleterious effect, and in the third, the methodology was extremely suspect. So, basically, these studies indicate that, objectively, prayer seems to have no positive effect, at all.
----------------------------------------
In the two groups that did not know for certain whether or not they were being prayed for, complications occurred in 52% of patients who received intercessory prayer and in 51% of those who did not. In contrast, complications occurred in a significantly larger proportion of patients (59%) who knew for certain that they were being prayed for. Major events and 30-day mortality rates, however, were similar across the three groups.
This study therefore showed that remote intercessory prayer did not improve outcomes after coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In fact, the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a slightly but significantly higher rate of postsurgical complications.
-----------------------------------------
Some points about this study are worth noting. The differences between groups, although significantly favoring patients for whom prayer was offered, were very small; the medians of the two groups differed by a small margin. Thus, the significance of the findings depended heavily upon the outliers who skewed the sample. Next, no attempt was made to compare for unusual biases, such as day of admission and discharge. It is conceivable, for example, that patients admitted toward the end of the week may have been investigated and treated more slowly and those due for discharge toward the end of the week may have been retained until the start of the next week.
And, again, this is talking about the practice of daily, ritual prayer, which is specifically what I indicated was not to what I was referring.
Now I was simply pointing out studies that state both positive and negative, as expected you keyed in on only the negative......... That just proved confirmation bias........ Thanks for your participation.
Well, he apecifically said he knows prayer can make people feel better. And a better state of mind can lead to better recovery from injury or illness. Is that your point?
Again, all you're pointing to is the effect of prayer effecting a positive mental position. So, what you basically seem to be saying is that prayer doesn't actually do anything demonstrable. Again, I have no problem with "We pray because it makes us feel better, and positive outlook assists with illness recovery," But, how about we stop pretending that prayer results in any actual supernatural intervention?As for praying for divine intervention, that also, depending on the circumstances can focus the mind towards the end result. Can it produce healing? There are many scientifically unexplainable recoveries, many claim it's the result of prayer, personally I don't know, it could be, it couldn't be, no empirical evidence one way or the other.
How bout you stop pretending you're a self appointed humanist God and mind your own business?Yeah, that's kinda what I said all along. I get that praying makes me feel better, and positive outlook affects recover, etc.From a purely scientific standpoint, yes, to a degree. Prayer is a way of focusing mental energy not only in the conscious but also the subconscious and unconscious minds, focusing the mind focuses the body towards a specific goal. Does it work 100% of the time? Of course not, depends on the individual.Number one, I read the links, I know the controversy involved with different findings which is why I included a link to the whole Google search, you know scientific pros and cons, something you're probably not all that familiar with.Here, you're referring specifically to the type of prayer that I was excluding from my question. "75 percent of Americans believe that prayer is an important part of daily life." I'm not talking about daily, ritualistic prayer.
You probably should have actaully read this link:
By the end of 26 weeks, a primary endpoint had occurred in 25.6% of patients in the prayer group and in 29.3% of patients in the control group. The difference was not statistically significant. The results remained nonsignificant when data were analyzed separately for high- and low-risk patients. Thus, this study showed that, as delivered in this study, intercessory prayer did not influence the 26-week outcome after discharge from a coronary care unit.So, in the first two studies, prayer was shown to have negligible, or even deleterious effect, and in the third, the methodology was extremely suspect. So, basically, these studies indicate that, objectively, prayer seems to have no positive effect, at all.
----------------------------------------
In the two groups that did not know for certain whether or not they were being prayed for, complications occurred in 52% of patients who received intercessory prayer and in 51% of those who did not. In contrast, complications occurred in a significantly larger proportion of patients (59%) who knew for certain that they were being prayed for. Major events and 30-day mortality rates, however, were similar across the three groups.
This study therefore showed that remote intercessory prayer did not improve outcomes after coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In fact, the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a slightly but significantly higher rate of postsurgical complications.
-----------------------------------------
Some points about this study are worth noting. The differences between groups, although significantly favoring patients for whom prayer was offered, were very small; the medians of the two groups differed by a small margin. Thus, the significance of the findings depended heavily upon the outliers who skewed the sample. Next, no attempt was made to compare for unusual biases, such as day of admission and discharge. It is conceivable, for example, that patients admitted toward the end of the week may have been investigated and treated more slowly and those due for discharge toward the end of the week may have been retained until the start of the next week.
And, again, this is talking about the practice of daily, ritual prayer, which is specifically what I indicated was not to what I was referring.
Now I was simply pointing out studies that state both positive and negative, as expected you keyed in on only the negative......... That just proved confirmation bias........ Thanks for your participation.
Well, he apecifically said he knows prayer can make people feel better. And a better state of mind can lead to better recovery from injury or illness. Is that your point?
Again, all you're pointing to is the effect of prayer effecting a positive mental position. So, what you basically seem to be saying is that prayer doesn't actually do anything demonstrable. Again, I have no problem with "We pray because it makes us feel better, and positive outlook assists with illness recovery," But, how about we stop pretending that prayer results in any actual supernatural intervention?As for praying for divine intervention, that also, depending on the circumstances can focus the mind towards the end result. Can it produce healing? There are many scientifically unexplainable recoveries, many claim it's the result of prayer, personally I don't know, it could be, it couldn't be, no empirical evidence one way or the other.
I'll do that, right about the time theists stop giving "God" credit for the hard work of doctors, nurses, and, frankly everyone else. Guess what? God didn't save my life after my heart attack. A brilliant fucking doctor, who spent years, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn medicine did. To give God his credit is a disservice to all of that doctor's hard work.How bout you stop pretending you're a self appointed humanist God and mind your own business?Yeah, that's kinda what I said all along. I get that praying makes me feel better, and positive outlook affects recover, etc.From a purely scientific standpoint, yes, to a degree. Prayer is a way of focusing mental energy not only in the conscious but also the subconscious and unconscious minds, focusing the mind focuses the body towards a specific goal. Does it work 100% of the time? Of course not, depends on the individual.Number one, I read the links, I know the controversy involved with different findings which is why I included a link to the whole Google search, you know scientific pros and cons, something you're probably not all that familiar with.Here, you're referring specifically to the type of prayer that I was excluding from my question. "75 percent of Americans believe that prayer is an important part of daily life." I'm not talking about daily, ritualistic prayer.
You probably should have actaully read this link:
By the end of 26 weeks, a primary endpoint had occurred in 25.6% of patients in the prayer group and in 29.3% of patients in the control group. The difference was not statistically significant. The results remained nonsignificant when data were analyzed separately for high- and low-risk patients. Thus, this study showed that, as delivered in this study, intercessory prayer did not influence the 26-week outcome after discharge from a coronary care unit.So, in the first two studies, prayer was shown to have negligible, or even deleterious effect, and in the third, the methodology was extremely suspect. So, basically, these studies indicate that, objectively, prayer seems to have no positive effect, at all.
----------------------------------------
In the two groups that did not know for certain whether or not they were being prayed for, complications occurred in 52% of patients who received intercessory prayer and in 51% of those who did not. In contrast, complications occurred in a significantly larger proportion of patients (59%) who knew for certain that they were being prayed for. Major events and 30-day mortality rates, however, were similar across the three groups.
This study therefore showed that remote intercessory prayer did not improve outcomes after coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In fact, the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a slightly but significantly higher rate of postsurgical complications.
-----------------------------------------
Some points about this study are worth noting. The differences between groups, although significantly favoring patients for whom prayer was offered, were very small; the medians of the two groups differed by a small margin. Thus, the significance of the findings depended heavily upon the outliers who skewed the sample. Next, no attempt was made to compare for unusual biases, such as day of admission and discharge. It is conceivable, for example, that patients admitted toward the end of the week may have been investigated and treated more slowly and those due for discharge toward the end of the week may have been retained until the start of the next week.
And, again, this is talking about the practice of daily, ritual prayer, which is specifically what I indicated was not to what I was referring.
Now I was simply pointing out studies that state both positive and negative, as expected you keyed in on only the negative......... That just proved confirmation bias........ Thanks for your participation.
Well, he apecifically said he knows prayer can make people feel better. And a better state of mind can lead to better recovery from injury or illness. Is that your point?
Again, all you're pointing to is the effect of prayer effecting a positive mental position. So, what you basically seem to be saying is that prayer doesn't actually do anything demonstrable. Again, I have no problem with "We pray because it makes us feel better, and positive outlook assists with illness recovery," But, how about we stop pretending that prayer results in any actual supernatural intervention?As for praying for divine intervention, that also, depending on the circumstances can focus the mind towards the end result. Can it produce healing? There are many scientifically unexplainable recoveries, many claim it's the result of prayer, personally I don't know, it could be, it couldn't be, no empirical evidence one way or the other.
God is a spirit. Whether you believe it or not is a different issue but I will try to explain the best way I know how (by experience) and hopefully it will help you. The spirit within recognizes the spirit within whether we can see it or know it.This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
Thanks again for confirming my first, second and last assessment of your inability to think beyond your self absorbed, pathetic, hateful bias. Keep up the "good" work there Sparknuts, it's always a pleasure making fun of your rantings.I'll do that, right about the time theists stop giving "God" credit for the hard work of doctors, nurses, and, frankly everyone else. Guess what? God didn't save my life after my heart attack. A brilliant fucking doctor, who spent years, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn medicine did. To give God his credit is a disservice to all of that doctor's hard work.How bout you stop pretending you're a self appointed humanist God and mind your own business?Yeah, that's kinda what I said all along. I get that praying makes me feel better, and positive outlook affects recover, etc.From a purely scientific standpoint, yes, to a degree. Prayer is a way of focusing mental energy not only in the conscious but also the subconscious and unconscious minds, focusing the mind focuses the body towards a specific goal. Does it work 100% of the time? Of course not, depends on the individual.Number one, I read the links, I know the controversy involved with different findings which is why I included a link to the whole Google search, you know scientific pros and cons, something you're probably not all that familiar with.
Now I was simply pointing out studies that state both positive and negative, as expected you keyed in on only the negative......... That just proved confirmation bias........ Thanks for your participation.
Well, he apecifically said he knows prayer can make people feel better. And a better state of mind can lead to better recovery from injury or illness. Is that your point?
Again, all you're pointing to is the effect of prayer effecting a positive mental position. So, what you basically seem to be saying is that prayer doesn't actually do anything demonstrable. Again, I have no problem with "We pray because it makes us feel better, and positive outlook assists with illness recovery," But, how about we stop pretending that prayer results in any actual supernatural intervention?As for praying for divine intervention, that also, depending on the circumstances can focus the mind towards the end result. Can it produce healing? There are many scientifically unexplainable recoveries, many claim it's the result of prayer, personally I don't know, it could be, it couldn't be, no empirical evidence one way or the other.
I'll "mind my own business" when lazy-assed Christians start realising that "thoughts and prayers" solved not one single problem. EVER. And, instead of "thoughts and prayers" start expecting their lawmakers to start actually doing shit to prevent tragedies from happening in this country. Then, I will "mind my own business".
I asked a simple question. What does prayer accomplish? And, basically, the response I got was, "Hey! Asshole. It doesn't do a damned thing, and we know it. But we like our prayers, so leave us the fuck alone!"
Okay. I'll do that. But, then, the next time any of you stupid fucks - and, yea, I mean any Christian - who makes a post, or says something about their prayers making a difference, I'm sure that you will all understand when I just point at you, laugh, and tell everyone what stupid, delusional fucks you are.
Oh and it's hysterically funny that you're the Westboroan version of Humanism.........I'll do that, right about the time theists stop giving "God" credit for the hard work of doctors, nurses, and, frankly everyone else. Guess what? God didn't save my life after my heart attack. A brilliant fucking doctor, who spent years, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn medicine did. To give God his credit is a disservice to all of that doctor's hard work.How bout you stop pretending you're a self appointed humanist God and mind your own business?Yeah, that's kinda what I said all along. I get that praying makes me feel better, and positive outlook affects recover, etc.From a purely scientific standpoint, yes, to a degree. Prayer is a way of focusing mental energy not only in the conscious but also the subconscious and unconscious minds, focusing the mind focuses the body towards a specific goal. Does it work 100% of the time? Of course not, depends on the individual.Number one, I read the links, I know the controversy involved with different findings which is why I included a link to the whole Google search, you know scientific pros and cons, something you're probably not all that familiar with.
Now I was simply pointing out studies that state both positive and negative, as expected you keyed in on only the negative......... That just proved confirmation bias........ Thanks for your participation.
Well, he apecifically said he knows prayer can make people feel better. And a better state of mind can lead to better recovery from injury or illness. Is that your point?
Again, all you're pointing to is the effect of prayer effecting a positive mental position. So, what you basically seem to be saying is that prayer doesn't actually do anything demonstrable. Again, I have no problem with "We pray because it makes us feel better, and positive outlook assists with illness recovery," But, how about we stop pretending that prayer results in any actual supernatural intervention?As for praying for divine intervention, that also, depending on the circumstances can focus the mind towards the end result. Can it produce healing? There are many scientifically unexplainable recoveries, many claim it's the result of prayer, personally I don't know, it could be, it couldn't be, no empirical evidence one way or the other.
I'll "mind my own business" when lazy-assed Christians start realising that "thoughts and prayers" solved not one single problem. EVER. And, instead of "thoughts and prayers" start expecting their lawmakers to start actually doing shit to prevent tragedies from happening in this country. Then, I will "mind my own business".
I asked a simple question. What does prayer accomplish? And, basically, the response I got was, "Hey! Asshole. It doesn't do a damned thing, and we know it. But we like our prayers, so leave us the fuck alone!"
Okay. I'll do that. But, then, the next time any of you stupid fucks - and, yea, I mean any Christian - who makes a post, or says something about their prayers making a difference, I'm sure that you will all understand when I just point at you, laugh, and tell everyone what stupid, delusional fucks you are.
This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish.
Ya know, this is an interesting break down of the different types of prayer. All of them seem to be centered on one thing - the person praying. In it, I don't see an example of "God, guide the hands of the surgeon..." What type of prayer would that be?This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish.
This depends on the type of prayer.
Word Prayers: If there is a problem, putting that problem into words often clarifies what the possible solutions might be.
Prayers of Thanksgiving: This calls to mind our blessings, and helps us to retain a humility that often we are much smaller than the events around us.
Meditation: Gives us a chance to think about the Word of God and our itty bitty place in the grand scheme of things. It provides the opportunity to adore God and to appreciate Him.
Prayers Confessing Regret: We are owning up to our faults and resolving to do better.
Prayers Requesting Assistance: This helps us to remember that Christ said the poor in spirit (poor people know they are in need) are blessed, even strengthened.
Contemplation: This is clearing the mind so that God might work quietly with your spirit.
Group Prayers: Praying with one another gives one the sense of their community. It is often a time of joy.
Prayer clarifies, it strengthens, it brings peace, and in rare instances a supernatural response is received. One often (but not always) feels closer to God.
Prayer cannot be compared to wishes Aladdin made to a Genii, where what is wished for is immediately handed over. Instead, God begins to work with an individual and this is why persistence in prayer is necessary. I once prayed for four years before a prayer was answered. Only in hindsight could I see the steps that guided me along the way until the final result fell into play.
This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".
I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:
School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?
Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??
I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.
Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.
Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!
Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!
Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?
Ya know, this is an interesting break down of the different types of prayer. All of them seem to be centered on one thing - the person praying. In it, I don't see an example of "God, guide the hands of the surgeon..." What type of prayer would that be?
