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Again, the question is whether or not the force used was excessive.
Immie
pepper spray is the lowest and safest form of force to use against resistance...there is an almost universal and instant compliance rate
did you want the officers to go hands on and fight the kids ?
night sticks ?
no I think what you really want is them just to able to break the law
thusly the death of free expression
Your last statement there doesn't make any sense. The death of free expression comes at the hands of those in authority. It was the police that were ending free expression not those who were protesting.
Immie
I break the law all the time. I was driving 68 miles an hour today on the way home from work in a 60 mph zone and to think of it, some nerd had the nerve to put up one of those lighted signs that construction companies use on the side of the road that said, "Slow down. Speed wrecks you day". I'm more than willing to face the consequences of my actions.
Immie
Thanks. I watched it without the sound on so I wouldn't be tricked into believing FOX's version of events.Do you have a link to that video you mentioned?My perspective is I wasn't there and I don't have ALL the facts, I didn't see any of the events, except one, leading up to the incident including what the cops and protesters were doing, I wasn't the proverbial fly on the wall in her office, the police pre-action briefing room or the OWS planning group. Therefore, not being omnipotent I would like to have all that information before I pass judgement.
Call me crazy but I believe in due process, not trail and conviction by public opinion.
I saw it on the new last night so there should be links on Google. I guess I assumed everyone would be paying attention to this and had already seen it. Silly me..........
Here ya go.
Other Side of UC Davis Pepper Spray Controversy - Fox News Video - Fox News
What's interesting is I didn't see it on any other news station but then I might have missed it.
Personally I believe the problem (here) is associative experience. Other than myself I doubt anyone here has ever been in the shoes of the officers in that situation. What most people don't see is even in "passive resistant" scenarios frequently there is an undertone of seething anger directed towards the the authority figures who are present and being in the middle of that you never know if or when that anger will explode into action so you do what you have been trained to do and that is attempt to take control of the situation to protect yourself and your fellow officers.See post number #198 but does that justify it? I don't know I wasn't there so you're asking the wrong person.
Reading through the remainder of the thread now and have watched the video.
I don't think it was justified force, but as you said, I was not there. From the reports I have seen, it appears that the police went overboard.
Y'all know that police officers don't take kindly to us peons not asking "How high?" when they tell us to jump, don't you?
Immie
If the officers had tried to extricate themselves by physically breaking the interlocked human chain they would have had to deploy physical measures possibly resulting in serious physical injury to one or more of the protesters not to mention the protestors might have seen this as an violent attack and struck back, potentially causing a riot, it's happened before. Think of the propaganda value the protesters would have had then.
These are all possible scenarios that could have been going on in the cops heads, I don't know, I'm simply speculating based on my knowledge and experience of dealing with strikes and protests and my knowledge of mob dynamics.
Please. The casualness of it all shows the cop wasn't thinking he was in danger....he carefully shook the can of spray and sprayed those kids like he was applying hairspray.
Personally I believe the problem (here) is associative experience. Other than myself I doubt anyone here has ever been in the shoes of the officers in that situation. What most people don't see is even in "passive resistant" scenarios frequently there is an undertone of seething anger directed towards the the authority figures who are present and being in the middle of that you never know if or when that anger will explode into action so you do what you have been trained to do and that is attempt to take control of the situation to protect yourself and your fellow officers.Reading through the remainder of the thread now and have watched the video.
I don't think it was justified force, but as you said, I was not there. From the reports I have seen, it appears that the police went overboard.
Immie
If the officers had tried to extricate themselves by physically breaking the interlocked human chain they would have had to deploy physical measures possibly resulting in serious physical injury to one or more of the protesters not to mention the protestors might have seen this as an violent attack and struck back, potentially causing a riot, it's happened before. Think of the propaganda value the protesters would have had then.
These are all possible scenarios that could have been going on in the cops heads, I don't know, I'm simply speculating based on my knowledge and experience of dealing with strikes and protests and my knowledge of mob dynamics.
No everyone doesn't react the same. And that cop reacted badly. Very badly. He should be fired, imo.Personally I believe the problem (here) is associative experience. Other than myself I doubt anyone here has ever been in the shoes of the officers in that situation. What most people don't see is even in "passive resistant" scenarios frequently there is an undertone of seething anger directed towards the the authority figures who are present and being in the middle of that you never know if or when that anger will explode into action so you do what you have been trained to do and that is attempt to take control of the situation to protect yourself and your fellow officers.
If the officers had tried to extricate themselves by physically breaking the interlocked human chain they would have had to deploy physical measures possibly resulting in serious physical injury to one or more of the protesters not to mention the protestors might have seen this as an violent attack and struck back, potentially causing a riot, it's happened before. Think of the propaganda value the protesters would have had then.
These are all possible scenarios that could have been going on in the cops heads, I don't know, I'm simply speculating based on my knowledge and experience of dealing with strikes and protests and my knowledge of mob dynamics.
I never said he thought he was I said it was a potentiality, but of course you know exactly what he was thinking....... And everyone reacts the exact same way as everyone else to every and all circumstances........ right?
Or that sitting on the ground is a law breaking offense?so what about the bold claims that the sitting protestors were denying other students their rights to enter the class rooms?
Thanks. I watched it without the sound on so I wouldn't be tricked into believing FOX's version of events.Do you have a link to that video you mentioned?
I saw it on the new last night so there should be links on Google. I guess I assumed everyone would be paying attention to this and had already seen it. Silly me..........
Here ya go.
Other Side of UC Davis Pepper Spray Controversy - Fox News Video - Fox News
What's interesting is I didn't see it on any other news station but then I might have missed it.
The cops weren't "trapped" when they sprayed the students. In fact there was a guy with a huge video camera right next to the cop and he sure didn't look trapped.
They weren't encircled when the pepper spray was applied.
You're right. Like I said, bear with us.
I'm sure that one day soon we'll decide that the system is so broken that our only recourse is to start breaking the law and spreading scabies.
Silly us thinking that things are still fixable at the ballot box and with legal protests.
It is silly. Just ask Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Mahatma Gandhi, Henry David Thoreau, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Emmeline Pankhurst. There's never a reason for civil disobedience.
Yes there is, and sometimes it has been both honorable and necessary. That tradition also includes a willingness to take the legal consequences of one's actions, and NOT resisting arrest; you prefer to ignore that. There's nothing sacred or magical about protest; whether it is a good thing or an abuse of liberty depends on why and how it is done. Ringel is correct, in calling you a bully; calling opponents all sorts of names in an attempt to browbeat them into silence is an old favorite tactic of the Left in America. I know your species well; they called me and my fellow soldiers every filthy epithet in the book and then some, when we came home from Vietnam. You are invited to consider just what I think of the Left, as a result of that. Some of your cohorts here have kept the memories fresh, too; I've been called a murderer and a baby killer right here on this board, because I served in Vietnam, and I refuse to be ashamed of it, or say I'm sorry I did. You can call me anything you like; I'll take that as a compliment; the contempt of your hateful kind tells me I must still be doing something right.
It is silly. Just ask Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Mahatma Gandhi, Henry David Thoreau, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Emmeline Pankhurst. There's never a reason for civil disobedience.
none of these broke laws secondary to their cause
Call it the douse of pepper spray heard 'round the world.
The UC-Davis police officer caught on camera shooting a bright red stream of highly concentrated, gaseous chili pepper onto a docile group of student protesters has inflamed a fiery national debate over just how harmful pepper spray can be.
Instead of dispersing the tension at the usually placid Northern California campus near Sacramento, Lt. John Spike's pepper spray cannister has fueled the controversy into a growing encampment and spurred plans for a major general strike Monday with sympathizers streaming in from across the state. There are now a geodesic dome and nearly 100 tents, donated from as far away as Egypt -- with more on the way.
"We've doubled in size, and we can double in size, again," said Geoffrey Wildanger, 23, of Los Altos, who was one of the students sprayed Friday in what's become a touchstone moment for the Occupy movement.
And suddenly, pepper spray is the focus of a national conversation, fomented by Fox News, MSNBC and Photoshopped images of Lt. John Spike dousing the Declaration of Independence. While to one side it's a chemical weapon, to the other it's as y harmless as the sauce poured on chicken wings.
Wildanger said he even still felt the burning four days later when he stepped into a hot shower.
"My eyes burned. The steam seemed to activate it," said Wildanger.
Another protester vomited blood, he said. Others felt burning on their hands for a day, and two were treated at the hospital.
Pepper spray is almost ubiquitous in California, legal for purchase by anyone, and easily found on the Internet. Mountain View Surplus sells a canister, called The Jogger, for $11.99. For the fashion conscious, a stylish pink canister, with a "Fight Breast Cancer" logo, costs only $9.99.
"But it should be used for people, as a defense," said Chris Gordon, sales associate at Mountain View Surplus.
"That's the opposite of what I saw -- it was used against the people. It was reminiscent of a police state. People don't consider that could happen here."
There's another difference: the civilian sizes are small, only 2.5 ounces -- holding just a fraction of the spray that UC-Davis police cannisters unleashed.
Known as oleoresin capsicum or OC, pepper spray is made from the same naturally-occurring chemical that makes chili peppers hot, but at concentrations much higher.
University of California-San Francisco researchers have discovered that the startling "hot" sensation is caused when the chemical binds directly to proteins in pain- and heat-sensing neurons.
Its defenders say it is a temporary irritant that can prevent far greater harm. In an interview with Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, attorney Megyn Kelly called it "a food product, essentially."
Its effects can include temporary blindness, coughing and skin irritation. The most serious problems occurs when pepper spray is inhaled, because capsicum inflames the airways, causing swelling and restriction -- a real threat to anyone with respiratory problems.
"Even from a distance, 20 to 30 feet away, it got in my eyes and brought me immediately to my knees,'' said former UC-Berkeley student George Ciccariello-Maher, now a professor at Drexel, who was sprayed during a 2001 rally in Canada.
"The immediate reaction is to force your eyes shut," he said. And my nostrils poured mucus all over my face."
There is near universal agreement on this: Pepper spray is a tool to preserve peace, not break up peaceful protests.
That's why many were outraged by Pike's seemingly casual posture, photographed by psychobiology student Louise Macabitas.
That photograph has been parodied throughout the Internet, with a pepper-spraying Pike Photoshopped into more than 1,000 images by famous painters -- from Wyeth to Picasso and DaVinci. Even Julie Andrews, atop a mountain in "The Sound of Music," got zapped.
Half a dozen law enforcement officials interviewed for this story agreed that the use of pepper spray at UC-Davis did not appear to be appropriate or reasonable. All agreed that the incident would not likely have happened at their agencies. Most said they had been sprayed as part of their training and described it as extremely painful.
"Our policy is that we do not use pepper spray or Tasers or batons against passively resisting people," said Santa Clara County Assistant Sheriff Peter Rode.
"It's a public safety issue. If they are blocking an intersection, then of course you have to move them. But if they aren't, then you might want to let them sit out there and get tired and go home. You go the path of least resistance."
To Ernie Burwell, a retired force expert and longtime deputy in the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, the UC-Davis incident could have been avoided.
"You've got a passive group of people. They are not threatening anybody. They are not trying to flee," he said. "What kind of country have we become where we are starting to use force on passive protesters?"
San Jose Police Sgt. Jason Dwyer said he has only used pepper spray once in his 13 year career -- to break up a violent fight between two women who were kicking in stiletto heels.
"On some people -- sometimes intoxicated or angry -- it can tick them off even more," he said.
On a grand scale, that appears to be exactly what happened at UC-Davis.
If indeed it is proven that this is the case then yes, he should be disciplined. Thank you for acknowledging it was your opinion, not factual evidence presented in a court of law..........No everyone doesn't react the same. And that cop reacted badly. Very badly. He should be fired, imo.
I never said he thought he was I said it was a potentiality, but of course you know exactly what he was thinking....... And everyone reacts the exact same way as everyone else to every and all circumstances........ right?
