What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[Saigon]

If you follow this logic it would be illegal for Israel to contruct anything in the West Bank including roads, public utilities, schools, hospitals, etc. Basically they would have had to let the West Bank undeveloped and without infrastructure for the past 45 years. Sorry, but this doesn't fly.

It is also entirely true, from a legal perspective.

No nation, under any circumstances, has the right to construct anything at all on land for which it does not enjoy legal recognition.

Israel should not have built a single building on the West Bank unless they were prepared to either abandon it in the event of a final settlement, or unless they were doing so with the agreement of the Palestinian Authority.

(Given they have done, I think any final settlement should allow Israel to annex 20% of the West Bank and trade land south of Jericho, or perhaps arond Shin Beit in return for it)

 

[P F Tinmore]

What about Israel? It has no borders.

Israel has internationally recognised borders with Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza and Egypt.

The Golan border and those demarcating the West Bank are not entirely clear, but I take the Green Line as being the basis for any future settlement.

All those borders you mentioned are "green lines." They are specifically not to be borders.

 

[Saigon]

Ok, so this is where you prove conclusively that you are a shill for Islamo-Facism. Have you noticed not one of your statements so far have been true so far? Let's put your false claims about your "background" in that category as well.

Um....what?

Dude, that makes absolutely 0 sense!

Just address the facts as posted....the insane rants aren't of great interest to me.

Insane rants are not exactly exceptional on USMB. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Ok, I enjoy them immensely!!

I just don't accept them as a replacement rational positions.

 

[Artevelde]

If you follow this logic it would be illegal for Israel to contruct anything in the West Bank including roads, public utilities, schools, hospitals, etc. Basically they would have had to let the West Bank undeveloped and without infrastructure for the past 45 years. Sorry, but this doesn't fly.

It is also entirely true, from a legal perspective.

No nation, under any circumstances, has the right to construct anything at all on land for which it does not enjoy legal recognition.

Israel should not have built a single building on the West Bank unless they were prepared to either abandon it in the event of a final settlement, or unless they were doing so with the agreement of the Palestinian Authority.

(Given they have done, I think any final settlement should allow Israel to annex 20% of the West Bank and trade land south of Jericho, or perhaps arond Shin Beit in return for it)

So they should have left the West Bank without sewers, drainage, roads, hospitals, etc. That's pretty absurd.

I also note that according to you all the scientific bases on the South Pole are completely illegal and should be immediately destroyed.

 

[Roudy]

Were you not a racist extremist yourself, this point might have some value!

It always entertains the hells out of when people on Stormfront post this kind of statement, as if they were moderates, and the rest of the world that does not occupy itself with racial hatred were some kinf of perverted extremists!

Gee, did anybody understand what this moron said. Maybe his boyfriend Abdul took over for a few minutes, who knows. Keep in mind this is the same ignorant retard that corrects the smallest of typos.

How does somebody who regularly visits storm front accuse others of being racist? Answer: Jew haters have no shame.

Is Turnspeak in Arabic translated as 'Truth?'

Ha ha ha! Have you noticed, how he keeps mentioning stormfront? It's like his second home or something. Stormfront this and stormfront that. Is storefront occupied too? Why would somebody be a regular flyer on such a neo nazi white supremacist Jew hating site, if not one himself? The guy is either an Islamist or one of these white power type knuckleheads.

 

[Artevelde]

Um....what?

Dude, that makes absolutely 0 sense!

Just address the facts as posted....the insane rants aren't of great interest to me.

Insane rants are not exactly exceptional on USMB. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Ok, I enjoy them immensely!!

I just don't accept them as a replacement rational positions.

Hey, if somebody is insane or dim-witted it's their problem, not yours.

 

[Saigon]

What about Israel? It has no borders.

Israel has internationally recognised borders with Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza and Egypt.

The Golan border and those demarcating the West Bank are not entirely clear, but I take the Green Line as being the basis for any future settlement.

All those borders you mentioned are "green lines." They are specifically not to be borders.

Agreed - but they have become default positions. All Israelis and Palestinians understand the Green Line borders, and both sides accept them as a basis for negotiation.

 

[Artevelde]

Israel has internationally recognised borders with Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza and Egypt.

The Golan border and those demarcating the West Bank are not entirely clear, but I take the Green Line as being the basis for any future settlement.

All those borders you mentioned are "green lines." They are specifically not to be borders.

Agreed - but they have become default positions. All Israelis and Palestinians understand the Green Line borders, and both sides accept them as a basis for negotiation.

This is incorrect. And it is wrong that all Palestinians accept these lines as a basis. Many Palestinians still aim for the destruction of Israel.

 

[Saigon]

Ha ha ha! Have you noticed, how he keeps mentioning stormfront? It's like his second home or something. Stormfront this and stormfront that. Is storefront occupied too? Why would somebody be a regular flyer on such a neo nazi white supremacist Jew hating site, if not one himself? The guy is either an Islamist or one of these white power type knuckleheads.

Your posting is very, very reminiscent of the classic Stormfront style - that is why I keep mentioning it.

All the posters there kept calling me a Jew and you keep calling me a Muslim, just because I don't buy into your particular brand of hate speech and extremism - it's hilarious!

I have posted on Stormfront a lot as an anti-fascist, so am very used to the approach they take. The only reason I don't post there now was I was banned. There are still a few of my posts there, so you can go there and search for my posts under the user name 'Ernst Gauss' and decide for yourself what slant they take.

 

[Saigon]

This is incorrect. And it is wrong that all Palestinians accept these lines as a basis. Many Palestinians still aim for the destruction of Israel.

Some, yes. that's true.

But I think for most of us the destruction of Israel is not on the negotiating table, so I tend to stick to what is available for discussion.

For Palestinians who accept that Israel is there for good - the Green Line is the starting point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has internationally recognised borders with Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza and Egypt.

The Golan border and those demarcating the West Bank are not entirely clear, but I take the Green Line as being the basis for any future settlement.

All those borders you mentioned are "green lines." They are specifically not to be borders.

Agreed - but they have become default positions. All Israelis and Palestinians understand the Green Line borders, and both sides accept them as a basis for negotiation.

The 1949 armistice lines have become Israel's de-facto borders. Most people have heard a million times that they are Israel's borders so they believe that they are. But they are not legitimate borders. They have no legal standing.

 

[Artevelde]

All those borders you mentioned are "green lines." They are specifically not to be borders.

Agreed - but they have become default positions. All Israelis and Palestinians understand the Green Line borders, and both sides accept them as a basis for negotiation.

The 1949 armistice lines have become Israel's de-facto borders. Most people have heard a million times that they are Israel's borders so they believe that they are. But they are not legitimate borders. They have no legal standing.

Yes, by that reasoning there are virtually no legal borders anywhere in the world. Doesn't change the fact that you're a racist liar.

 

[Roudy]

Not recognized? Israel is recognized as a country by the international community, and therefore as such, it can do as it pleases to protect itself, and not have to go to any authority to "get permission" to do anything. And besides, who cares what "other" countries think, really? After all we have many "countries" including the Mexicans that think the wall between the US and Mexico is "collective punishment" and "dangerous" and "oppressive" blah blah blah. There are even people right here in the US (bleeding heart liberals) that want the wall removed. You are even stupider and less educated than I thought.

Let's go back a step, so maybe you can understand this.

Do you understand what a border is?

Do you know what I mean by 'international recognition' of borders?

If so, do you believe it would be legal for the US to build a wall between, say, Mexicoty City and Oaxaca as a way of protecting US territory?

Good point.

There is a lot of confusion about Israel and borders.

I believe that confusion is deliberate.

Yup the confusion is deliberate. On the part of IslamoNazis that is. The wall stops the Palestinian animals from blowing up Israelis, the Palestinians have an Islamic right to blow up Jews, and the Jews cannot do anything about it.

The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews".

The holocaust was all fake and an excuse to make money and steal Arab land. The gas chambers did not exist. It's all a lie. If any Jews died it was because not because the Nazis killed them but rather from diseases.

Israel did 9-11, to make the US go to war with Muslims. Otherwise Muslims as we can see never do these kinds of things. No never.

Israel is a racist apartheid state and the Arabs / Muslims are the most tolerant peaceful people on the face of this earth.

The terror, violence, persecution, oppression that Muslims are committing today is not Koran or Islam based.

The Jews are like Nazis, the Muslims, who sided with the Nazis and adore Hitler for killing all those Jews, and to this day follow Nazi ideology calling for the total destruction of Israel, and mass slaughter of Jews, are not Nazis. No, never.

Let's see, have we covered it all? or should we add a few more?

 

[Roudy]

I take issue with the qualification "illegal". As the occupying power Israel has a de facto right (and to certain extent even an obligation) to take whatever measures are necessary to ensure security. The erection of the wall falls well within that right, as do check-points and the like.

Artevelde -

No nation has the right to build anything outside its own internationally recognised borders, and to do so is, in effect, an annexation.

While any final peace process would inevitably see settlements like Gilo remain within Israel anyway, the construction of the wall outside the Green Line is without question an illegal act.

No nation has the right to build anything outside its own internationally recognised borders...

What about Israel? It has no borders.

Try penetrating Israel's borders, when you get your head blown off you will realize that it does have borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Agreed - but they have become default positions. All Israelis and Palestinians understand the Green Line borders, and both sides accept them as a basis for negotiation.

The 1949 armistice lines have become Israel's de-facto borders. Most people have heard a million times that they are Israel's borders so they believe that they are. But they are not legitimate borders. They have no legal standing.

Yes, by that reasoning there are virtually no legal borders anywhere in the world. Doesn't change the fact that you're a racist liar.

How do you figure that?

It is the armistice lines that are not borders.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

How does that apply to other countries?

 

[Saigon]

The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews".

The holocaust was all fake and an excuse to make money and steal Arab land. The gas chambers did not exist. It's all a lie. If any Jews died it was because not because the Nazis killed them but rather from diseases.

Israel did 9-11, to make the US go to war with Muslims. Otherwise Muslims as we can see never do these kinds of things. No never.

Israel is a racist apartheid state and the Arabs / Muslims are the most tolerant peaceful people on the face of this earth.

The terror, violence, persecution, oppression that Muslims are committing today is not Koran or Islam based.

The Jews are like Nazis, the Muslims, who sided with the Nazis and adore Hitler for killing all those Jews, and to this day follow Nazi ideology calling for the total destruction of Israel, and mass slaughter of Jews, are not Nazis. No, never.

Let's see, have we covered it all? or should we add a few more?

Much of what you have posted here are racist lies, without question - but you missed your own racist lies. The ones you tell here every day.

Remember all of that old crap about there not being anything as Palestinians? That Israel has never used collecive punishment? That Arabs are all evil terrorists?

How can you rant about lies told by one side, and perpetuate the lies told by the other side?

Do you honestly think this level of debate convinces anyone at all?

Why not set the same standard of truth for all sides?

 

[Hossfly]

The Jews that are in Israel are "fake Jews" and have no relation to their ancestors, the Muslim Arabs who don't speak Hebrew or follow the Torah, and look exactly like the other Arabs out there are the real "Hebrews".

The holocaust was all fake and an excuse to make money and steal Arab land. The gas chambers did not exist. It's all a lie. If any Jews died it was because not because the Nazis killed them but rather from diseases.

Israel did 9-11, to make the US go to war with Muslims. Otherwise Muslims as we can see never do these kinds of things. No never.

Israel is a racist apartheid state and the Arabs / Muslims are the most tolerant peaceful people on the face of this earth.

The terror, violence, persecution, oppression that Muslims are committing today is not Koran or Islam based.

The Jews are like Nazis, the Muslims, who sided with the Nazis and adore Hitler for killing all those Jews, and to this day follow Nazi ideology calling for the total destruction of Israel, and mass slaughter of Jews, are not Nazis. No, never.

Let's see, have we covered it all? or should we add a few more?

Much of what you have posted here are racist lies, without question - but you missed your own racist lies. The ones you tell here every day.

Remember all of that old crap about there not being anything as Palestinians? That Israel has never used collecive punishment? That Arabs are all evil terrorists?

How can you rant about lies told by one side, and perpetuate the lies told by the other side?

Do you honestly think this level of debate convinces anyone at all?

Why not set the same standard of truth for all sides?

Which 'side' do you champion? Truthfully.

 

[Saigon]

Hossfly -

I champion the rights of all peoples, everywhere, equally.

I absolutely and without reservation defend Israel's right to exist and to be left in peace.

I also defend the rights of Palestinians to live on land they have lived on for 3,000 years.

I don't see any contradiction in those positions.

 

[Roudy]

Ha ha ha! Have you noticed, how he keeps mentioning stormfront? It's like his second home or something. Stormfront this and stormfront that. Is storefront occupied too? Why would somebody be a regular flyer on such a neo nazi white supremacist Jew hating site, if not one himself? The guy is either an Islamist or one of these white power type knuckleheads.

Your posting is very, very reminiscent of the classic Stormfront style - that is why I keep mentioning it.

All the posters there kept calling me a Jew and you keep calling me a Muslim, just because I don't buy into your particular brand of hate speech and extremism - it's hilarious!

I have posted on Stormfront a lot as an anti-fascist, so am very used to the approach they take. The only reason I don't post there now was I was banned. There are still a few of my posts there, so you can go there and search for my posts under the user name 'Ernst Gauss' and decide for yourself what slant they take.

Your deception isn't working. You shouldn't be surprised why people think you're an Islamist. You repeat anti semetic lies and propoganda only Muslims and white supremacists regularly do, you visit white supremacist sites like stormfrint, and you are extremely ignorant. If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, then it is one.

 

[Saigon]

Your deception isn't working. You shouldn't be surprised why people think you're an Islamist. You repeat anti semetic lies and propoganda only Muslims and white supremacists regularly do, you visit white supremacist sites like stormfrint, and you are extremely ignorant. If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, then it is one.

As I said - when people on Stormfront disappear over the horizon of extremism into out-and-out race hatred - this is exactly the defense they come up. They are moderates - EVERYONE else is an extremist.

I also laughed when they call me a Jew, and I laugh when you call me a Muslim - it really is funny.

Really, Roudy, when you understand so little of the conflict you can't even tell what side people are on, it's time to give up.

When I post this statement:

I absolutely and without reservation defend Israel's right to exist and to be left in peace.

and you respond as you do here above, it's time to give up forever!!