What Kind of State in Israel?

[georgephillip]

Why does every single survivor of Liberty believe the attack was deliberate?

 

[YKohen]

1. Every single one doesn't.

2. Your own NSA tapes show it was a tragic case of friendly fire.

3. Numerous Congressional hearings concluded the same through the years.

That's why the case was closed long ago.

 

[georgephillip]

Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.

 

[irosie91]

Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.

Name a person involved in a PERSONAL INJURY CASE who does not lay BLAME for
his injuries

technically----navy veterans who publically express opinions contrary
to that of the navy regarding incidents in which they were involved---
are in violation of law. If one of the people who was involved told
ME his opinion----I could not, ethically, repeat what he said and
CERTAINLY NOT NAME HIM

 

[YKohen]

I don't have to. You made the statement that "every single survivor of Liberty believe the attack was deliberate". If anything, YOU would have to bring testamony toback that up- from every single one.

But it's a moot point. The case was closed long ago.

Or do you think it's some sort of Zionist conspiracy? If so, it would be from LBJ down, include Secretary of Defense McNamara, include the top echelons of the armed forces- and Congress, plus the CIA, the NSA and many others; not to mention hundreds or even thousands of officers and soldiers.

And after 45 years, there was never any kind of leak.

Must be a first.

Oh, right, and I would just love to hear why there would be such a cover-up (not to mention why we would have attacked our close and important ally, and THE leader of the free world.

I can't wait to hear this.

 

[georgephillip]

Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.

Name a person involved in a PERSONAL INJURY CASE who does not lay BLAME for
his injuries

technically----navy veterans who publically express opinions contrary
to that of the navy regarding incidents in which they were involved---
are in violation of law. If one of the people who was involved told
ME his opinion----I could not, ethically, repeat what he said and
CERTAINLY NOT NAME HIM

Possibly that explains why all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged?

USS Liberty Witnesses

 

[georgephillip]

I don't have to. You made the statement that "every single survivor of Liberty believe the attack was deliberate". If anything, YOU would have to bring testamony toback that up- from every single one.

But it's a moot point. The case was closed long ago.

Or do you think it's some sort of Zionist conspiracy? If so, it would be from LBJ down, include Secretary of Defense McNamara, include the top echelons of the armed forces- and Congress, plus the CIA, the NSA and many others; not to mention hundreds or even thousands of officers and soldiers.

And after 45 years, there was never any kind of leak.

Must be a first.

Oh, right, and I would just love to hear why there would be such a cover-up (not to mention why we would have attacked our close and important ally, and THE leader of the free world.

I can't wait to hear this.

Any explanation of motive would require an investigation by the full US Congress.
So far, Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty is the only similar event in US History that has never received such scrutiny.
I can't wait to see that hearing on CSPAN...how about you?

 

[YKohen]

Congress did carry out a full investigation. In fact:

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry (June 10_18, 1967)

The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

CIA Report (June 13, 1967)

The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) (June 9-20, 1967)

Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack.

Clifford Report (July 18, 1967)

No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituting "gross negligence." Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.

Senate Armed Services Committee (Feb. 1, 1968)

No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

House Appropriations Committee (April-May 1968)

Navy communications "foul-up" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee (May 10, 1971)

Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (1979)

Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

National Security Agency (1981)

Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.

House Armed Services Committee (June 1991)

Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommittee on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.

Again, do you think it's some sort of Zionist conspiracy? If so, it would be from LBJ down, include Secretary of Defense McNamara, include the top echelons of the armed forces- and Congress, plus the CIA, the NSA and many others; not to mention hundreds or even thousands of officers and soldiers.

And after 45 years, there was never any kind of leak.

Congress closed the case for a good reason: They reached a conclusion.

Move along now. Find another conspiracy theory.

 

[georgephillip]

Moving on...

"On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller.

"I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on. The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller.

"Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying.

"There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs.

"The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating.

"The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally."

Why do you suppose the heroic Jews wanted to sink Liberty without any survivors?

Statement of Stephen Forslund

 

[SAYIT]

Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.

Name a person involved in a PERSONAL INJURY CASE who does not lay BLAME for
his injuries

technically----navy veterans who publically express opinions contrary
to that of the navy regarding incidents in which they were involved---
are in violation of law. If one of the people who was involved told
ME his opinion----I could not, ethically, repeat what he said and
CERTAINLY NOT NAME HIM

Possibly that explains why all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged?

USS Liberty Witnesses

Reading the Kavanaugh statement you will find he claims two NSA personnel debriefed him bedside. "They told me that I was never to speak of the attack to anyone and not to provide details about the attack to anyone. They also told me that if I committed a breach of this agreement that I would spend many years in Leavenworth."
A breach of what agreement? Clearly Kavanaugh and his mates have spoken openly and with each other of this incident for decades. Does anyone have a copy of that agreement? Is there any document which requires their silence? Has anyone ever signed such an agreement? Have any of them been subject to court martial? Have any ever spent "years at Leavenworth?"

 

[YKohen]

That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.

The only ones they do have show that it was unintentional.

Of course, Forslund, being an old man by now (the tragic event happened 45 years ago), must have a faulty recollection.

NSA tapes offer clues in '67 attack on U.S. spy ship 34 crewmen died, 171 hurt in 'mistaken' Israeli strike

...Now, in a highly unusual release of eavesdropping tapes, the National Security Agency has made public recordings that show an Israeli ground controller telling helicopter pilots after the attack that the vessel was "an Arab ship" or "an Egyptian supply ship."

The recordings were released in response to a lawsuit filed under the Freedom of Information Act by A. Jay Cristol, a former Navy pilot and lawyer who has studied the incident for 16 years and published a book about it last year, The Liberty Incident, based on his doctoral dissertation. He says the recordings support his conclusion that the Israeli attackers had no idea they were targeting a U.S. vessel.

"These tapes contain nothing showing that the attack was deliberate, and, to me at least, they show it was a mistake," says Cristol, now a U.S. bankruptcy judge in Miami. Based in part on his analysis, Israeli news media are reporting that the material proves their government's case. "There's nothing more of significance to be found," says Cristol. "I think it will settle the matter for all but that 2 percent of die-hard conspiracy theorists."
==
I suppose that would include you.

 

[SAYIT]

Moving on...

"On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller.

"I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on. The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller.

"Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying.

"There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs.

"The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating.

"The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally."

Why do you suppose the heroic Jews wanted to sink Liberty without any survivors?

Statement of Stephen Forslund

And yet none of what Forslund claims to have read has ever been made public so the only person to have read it was ... drum roll, please ... Forslund.
How convenient.
The bottom line? Israel had nothing to gain and much to lose by attacking an American ship and no one has ever found a smoking gun which explains why successive American administrations have "covered up" what has been officially deemed a tragic case of mistaken identity.

 

[SAYIT]

Moving on...
Why do you suppose the heroic Jews wanted to sink Liberty without any survivors?

Statement of Stephen Forslund

Is that some sort of ethnic slur, Princess?

 

[georgephillip]

Name a person involved in a PERSONAL INJURY CASE who does not lay BLAME for
his injuries

technically----navy veterans who publically express opinions contrary
to that of the navy regarding incidents in which they were involved---
are in violation of law. If one of the people who was involved told
ME his opinion----I could not, ethically, repeat what he said and
CERTAINLY NOT NAME HIM

Possibly that explains why all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged?

USS Liberty Witnesses

Reading the Kavanaugh statement you will find he claims two NSA personnel debriefed him bedside. "They told me that I was never to speak of the attack to anyone and not to provide details about the attack to anyone. They also told me that if I committed a breach of this agreement that I would spend many years in Leavenworth."
A breach of what agreement? Clearly Kavanaugh and his mates have spoken openly and with each other of this incident for decades. Does anyone have a copy of that agreement? Is there any document which requires their silence? Has anyone ever signed such an agreement? Have any of them been subject to court martial? Have any ever spent "years at Leavenworth?"

"Between 1000 and 1100 hours, I observed what appeared to be a maritime reconnaissance aircraft at approximately 500 feet, move slowly from starboard to
port making a half moon circle from bow to stern. It then moved away toward
the shore. This aircraft flew directly over our ship and I observed that it was
marked with a Military Star of David. The aircraft flew so close to us that we
waved to the pilot as he looked down at us while banking the aircraft.

"8. When the attack began, I was taking a shower just aft of the CT sleeping quarters just above the screw. While showering I heard what sounded like marbles
thrown into an empty oil drum then the lights dimmed a few times. A few seconds later, the apparent second run by attacking aircraft, bullets penetrated the
ship and a bullet hit just inches away from me tearing a hole in my hip and sending me to the floor of the shower in a pool of blood."

Think the Heroic Jew waved back?

http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/kavanaugh.pdf

 

[georgephillip]

That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.

The only ones they do have show that it was unintentional.

Of course, Forslund, being an old man by now (the tragic event happened 45 years ago), must have a faulty recollection.

NSA tapes offer clues in '67 attack on U.S. spy ship 34 crewmen died, 171 hurt in 'mistaken' Israeli strike

...Now, in a highly unusual release of eavesdropping tapes, the National Security Agency has made public recordings that show an Israeli ground controller telling helicopter pilots after the attack that the vessel was "an Arab ship" or "an Egyptian supply ship."

The recordings were released in response to a lawsuit filed under the Freedom of Information Act by A. Jay Cristol, a former Navy pilot and lawyer who has studied the incident for 16 years and published a book about it last year, The Liberty Incident, based on his doctoral dissertation. He says the recordings support his conclusion that the Israeli attackers had no idea they were targeting a U.S. vessel.

"These tapes contain nothing showing that the attack was deliberate, and, to me at least, they show it was a mistake," says Cristol, now a U.S. bankruptcy judge in Miami. Based in part on his analysis, Israeli news media are reporting that the material proves their government's case. "There's nothing more of significance to be found," says Cristol. "I think it will settle the matter for all but that 2 percent of die-hard conspiracy theorists."
==
I suppose that would include you.

I suppose you and Cristol are among the Jews who lie about what happened to Liberty.

"Cristol’s insufferable mantra: “The Israelis’ attack on the Liberty was an accident,” was repeated by him ad nauseam at the book signing.

"However, the overwhelming credible evidence shows that the Israeli attack was intentional (James M. Ennes, Jr.’s 'Assault on the Liberty'), and that an insidious cover-up of that fact has continued down to the present day (James Bamford's 'Body of Secrets').

"Recently, two individuals from the U.S. intelligence community have come forward to verify that they had viewed intercepted real-time transcripts, on June 8, 1967, between Israeli jet pilots and their ground controllers, in which the Israelis clearly acknowledged that they knew that they were attacking, and worse still, trying to sink, 'the American ship' (http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm)."

"Liberty" Smearing Backfires: Pro-Israeli Cristol Overreaches, When Ahron Jay Cristol, a self-described "amateur historian," showed up at the National Security Agency's (NSA) National Cryptologic Museum at Fort George C. Meade, MD., on Jan. 14, 2004,

 

[SAYIT]

Possibly that explains why all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged?

USS Liberty Witnesses

Reading the Kavanaugh statement you will find he claims two NSA personnel debriefed him bedside. "They told me that I was never to speak of the attack to anyone and not to provide details about the attack to anyone. They also told me that if I committed a breach of this agreement that I would spend many years in Leavenworth."
A breach of what agreement? Clearly Kavanaugh and his mates have spoken openly and with each other of this incident for decades. Does anyone have a copy of that agreement? Is there any document which requires their silence? Has anyone ever signed such an agreement? Have any of them been subject to court martial? Have any ever spent "years at Leavenworth?"

"Between 1000 and 1100 hours, I observed what appeared to be a maritime reconnaissance aircraft at approximately 500 feet, move slowly from starboard to
port making a half moon circle from bow to stern. It then moved away toward
the shore. This aircraft flew directly over our ship and I observed that it was
marked with a Military Star of David. The aircraft flew so close to us that we
waved to the pilot as he looked down at us while banking the aircraft.

"8. When the attack began, I was taking a shower just aft of the CT sleeping quarters just above the screw. While showering I heard what sounded like marbles
thrown into an empty oil drum then the lights dimmed a few times. A few seconds later, the apparent second run by attacking aircraft, bullets penetrated the
ship and a bullet hit just inches away from me tearing a hole in my hip and sending me to the floor of the shower in a pool of blood."

Think the Heroic Jew waved back?

http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/kavanaugh.pdf

Lame deflection.
You claimed all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged (how is one court martialed after discharge, anyway?). I retorted that no one has ever seen the "agreement" to which Kavanaugh refered and the survivors have been talking to anyone and everyone for decades. You then changed the subject.
And you never answered the question, Princess ... is your "Heroic Jew" reference an ethnic slur?

 

[georgephillip]

Reading the Kavanaugh statement you will find he claims two NSA personnel debriefed him bedside. "They told me that I was never to speak of the attack to anyone and not to provide details about the attack to anyone. They also told me that if I committed a breach of this agreement that I would spend many years in Leavenworth."
A breach of what agreement? Clearly Kavanaugh and his mates have spoken openly and with each other of this incident for decades. Does anyone have a copy of that agreement? Is there any document which requires their silence? Has anyone ever signed such an agreement? Have any of them been subject to court martial? Have any ever spent "years at Leavenworth?"

"Between 1000 and 1100 hours, I observed what appeared to be a maritime reconnaissance aircraft at approximately 500 feet, move slowly from starboard to
port making a half moon circle from bow to stern. It then moved away toward
the shore. This aircraft flew directly over our ship and I observed that it was
marked with a Military Star of David. The aircraft flew so close to us that we
waved to the pilot as he looked down at us while banking the aircraft.

"8. When the attack began, I was taking a shower just aft of the CT sleeping quarters just above the screw. While showering I heard what sounded like marbles
thrown into an empty oil drum then the lights dimmed a few times. A few seconds later, the apparent second run by attacking aircraft, bullets penetrated the
ship and a bullet hit just inches away from me tearing a hole in my hip and sending me to the floor of the shower in a pool of blood."

Think the Heroic Jew waved back?

http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/kavanaugh.pdf

Lame deflection.
You claimed all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged (how is one court martialed after discharge, anyway?). I retorted that no one has ever seen the "agreement" to which Kavanaugh refered and the survivors have been talking to anyone and everyone for decades. You then changed the subject.
And you never answered the question, Princess ... is your "Heroic Jew" reference an ethnic slur?

What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.

Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?

 

[SAYIT]

That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.

The only ones they do have show that it was unintentional.

Of course, Forslund, being an old man by now (the tragic event happened 45 years ago), must have a faulty recollection.

NSA tapes offer clues in '67 attack on U.S. spy ship 34 crewmen died, 171 hurt in 'mistaken' Israeli strike

...Now, in a highly unusual release of eavesdropping tapes, the National Security Agency has made public recordings that show an Israeli ground controller telling helicopter pilots after the attack that the vessel was "an Arab ship" or "an Egyptian supply ship."

The recordings were released in response to a lawsuit filed under the Freedom of Information Act by A. Jay Cristol, a former Navy pilot and lawyer who has studied the incident for 16 years and published a book about it last year, The Liberty Incident, based on his doctoral dissertation. He says the recordings support his conclusion that the Israeli attackers had no idea they were targeting a U.S. vessel.

"These tapes contain nothing showing that the attack was deliberate, and, to me at least, they show it was a mistake," says Cristol, now a U.S. bankruptcy judge in Miami. Based in part on his analysis, Israeli news media are reporting that the material proves their government's case. "There's nothing more of significance to be found," says Cristol. "I think it will settle the matter for all but that 2 percent of die-hard conspiracy theorists."
==
I suppose that would include you.

I suppose you and Cristol are among the Jews who lie about what happened to Liberty.

"Cristol’s insufferable mantra: “The Israelis’ attack on the Liberty was an accident,” was repeated by him ad nauseam at the book signing.

"However, the overwhelming credible evidence shows that the Israeli attack was intentional (James M. Ennes, Jr.’s 'Assault on the Liberty'), and that an insidious cover-up of that fact has continued down to the present day (James Bamford's 'Body of Secrets').

"Recently, two individuals from the U.S. intelligence community have come forward to verify that they had viewed intercepted real-time transcripts, on June 8, 1967, between Israeli jet pilots and their ground controllers, in which the Israelis clearly acknowledged that they knew that they were attacking, and worse still, trying to sink, 'the American ship' (http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm)."

"Liberty" Smearing Backfires: Pro-Israeli Cristol Overreaches, When Ahron Jay Cristol, a self-described "amateur historian," showed up at the National Security Agency's (NSA) National Cryptologic Museum at Fort George C. Meade, MD., on Jan. 14, 2004,

So who the hell is Bill Hughes and why would anyone care what he thinks?

 

[SAYIT]

"Between 1000 and 1100 hours, I observed what appeared to be a maritime reconnaissance aircraft at approximately 500 feet, move slowly from starboard to
port making a half moon circle from bow to stern. It then moved away toward
the shore. This aircraft flew directly over our ship and I observed that it was
marked with a Military Star of David. The aircraft flew so close to us that we
waved to the pilot as he looked down at us while banking the aircraft.

"8. When the attack began, I was taking a shower just aft of the CT sleeping quarters just above the screw. While showering I heard what sounded like marbles
thrown into an empty oil drum then the lights dimmed a few times. A few seconds later, the apparent second run by attacking aircraft, bullets penetrated the
ship and a bullet hit just inches away from me tearing a hole in my hip and sending me to the floor of the shower in a pool of blood."

Think the Heroic Jew waved back?

http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/kavanaugh.pdf

Lame deflection.
You claimed all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged (how is one court martialed after discharge, anyway?). I retorted that no one has ever seen the "agreement" to which Kavanaugh refered and the survivors have been talking to anyone and everyone for decades. You then changed the subject.
And you never answered the question, Princess ... is your "Heroic Jew" reference an ethnic slur?

What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.

Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?

If even just a few survivors had come forward with this threat of prison story in a timely fashion the entire alleged "cover-up" would have blown up.
In fact, I believe the results of American gov't hearings and investigations which, as you know, concluded that the attack was a fog-of-war friendly fire incident.
Why do you have so little faith in America that you reject those findings?

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

It is called an "NDA" or Non-disclosure Agreement. There are several different kinds. The two most common are collateral (TS and below), and the one for "SCI" or Sensitive Compartmented Information or Special Access Programs (SAPs). Everyone, down to the Cook, on the USS Liberty signed an NDA just for being assigned to an Intelligence Research Ship. Most of the technical crew would have signed a couple, depending on the compartments they were given access.

Every NDA Briefing says if you make an unauthorized disclosure you will go to jail and pay $10K in fines for each count.

What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.

Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?

(COMMENT)

I gave such briefings every day during my tenure as an SSO. There is absolutely nothing unusual about the process. It is still done today.

Most Respectfully,
R