What Kind of State in Israel?

[georgephillip]

Rocco...do you have any thoughts on how the Liberty Incident would have played out in the Internet age?

 

[SAYIT]

That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.

The only ones they do have show that it was unintentional.

Of course, Forslund, being an old man by now (the tragic event happened 45 years ago), must have a faulty recollection.

NSA tapes offer clues in '67 attack on U.S. spy ship 34 crewmen died, 171 hurt in 'mistaken' Israeli strike

...Now, in a highly unusual release of eavesdropping tapes, the National Security Agency has made public recordings that show an Israeli ground controller telling helicopter pilots after the attack that the vessel was "an Arab ship" or "an Egyptian supply ship."

The recordings were released in response to a lawsuit filed under the Freedom of Information Act by A. Jay Cristol, a former Navy pilot and lawyer who has studied the incident for 16 years and published a book about it last year, The Liberty Incident, based on his doctoral dissertation. He says the recordings support his conclusion that the Israeli attackers had no idea they were targeting a U.S. vessel.

"These tapes contain nothing showing that the attack was deliberate, and, to me at least, they show it was a mistake," says Cristol, now a U.S. bankruptcy judge in Miami. Based in part on his analysis, Israeli news media are reporting that the material proves their government's case. "There's nothing more of significance to be found," says Cristol. "I think it will settle the matter for all but that 2 percent of die-hard conspiracy theorists."
==
I suppose that would include you.

I suppose you and Cristol are among the Jews who lie about what happened to Liberty.

Do you infer that only Jews accept the US gov't conclusions which were conducted at the time of the incident and reject the stories of those such as Bill Hughes who find fame and perhaps fortune many decades later?

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

Interesting question.

Rocco...do you have any thoughts on how the Liberty Incident would have played out in the Internet age?

(COMMENT)

Moving the clock, forward three decades ('67 to '97) it would be unlikely that such an event would have ever occurred given the technology available. While the range finders and aiming scopes of 1967 leave open the possibility for plausible denial (the misidentification defense leading to friendly fire), given the FDM use of the Guard Band, the active RADAR signature, and the ability of FM Ship-to-Ship, and allied IFF, there could not have been such an event. (Not that the USS Liberty was not electromagnetically lit-up like a Christmas Tree.)

But had the events of '67 populated the media stream at today's speeds, it would be rather unlikely that the relations between the US and Israel would have developed along the path it did. It would have been the end of US direct support --- militarily and politically.

And that is the hinge pin.

Most Respectfully,
R

PS: The events of the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) had set an important precedent that would play-out again six months later with the USS Pueblo (AGER-2). It should be noted that these are the only two US Naval Vessels ever attacked for which there was no response.

 

[georgephillip]

Many thanks for your patience and tact, Rocco.
I wasn't taking into account all of the technological changes since June '67.

Admiral Thomas Moorer also has some thoughts on the Liberty vs Pueblo disconnect:

"As we know now, if the rescue aircraft from U.S. carriers had not been recalled, they would have arrived at the Liberty before the torpedo attack, reducing the death toll by 25.

"The torpedo boat commanders could not be certain that Sixth Fleet aircraft were not on the way and this might have led to their breaking off the attack after 40 minutes rather than remaining to send the Liberty and its crew of 294 to the bottom.

"Congress to this day has failed to hold formal hearings for the record on the Liberty affair. This is unprecedented and a national disgrace.

"I spent hours on the Hill giving testimony after the USS Pueblo, a sister ship to the Liberty, was seized by North Korea. I was asked every imaginable question, including why a carrier in the area failed to dispatch aircraft to aid the Pueblo.

"In the Liberty case, fighters were put in the air not once, but twice. They were ordered to stand down by Secretary of Defense McNamara and President Johnson for reasons the American public deserves to know."

Admiral Thomas Moorer Rejects Israeli's Excuse

 

[irosie91]

more idiocy from georgie Re ---the liberty>>>

"The ground control station (israeli) re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace."

georgie is quoting someone here. HOW DOES ONE SINK A USA NAVAL
VESSEL AND "leave no trace" ???????

 

[docmauser1]

Here's a message from the USS Liberty

Any message from Cap'n Kirk?

 

[georgephillip]

He says, "the Jews did it."
Repent.

 

[georgephillip]

Moving on...

"On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller.

"I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on. The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller.

"Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying.

"There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs.

"The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating.

"The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally."

Why do you suppose the heroic Jews wanted to sink Liberty without any survivors?

Statement of Stephen Forslund

And yet none of what Forslund claims to have read has ever been made public so the only person to have read it was ... drum roll, please ... Forslund.
How convenient.
The bottom line? Israel had nothing to gain and much to lose by attacking an American ship and no one has ever found a smoking gun which explains why successive American administrations have "covered up" what has been officially deemed a tragic case of mistaken identity.

How do you know Forslund is the only person who has read the teletypes?
We do know every single survivor of Israel's attack claims the attack was deliberate.
We also know many high ranking US government officials don't believe AIPAC's version of the events:

"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **..."

"That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967.."

I don't think you would be so (kosher) pig-headed about resisting a full investigation of this incident if your pals the Egyptians had attacked Liberty.

The Moorer Commission

 

[georgephillip]

Lame deflection.
You claimed all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged (how is one court martialed after discharge, anyway?). I retorted that no one has ever seen the "agreement" to which Kavanaugh refered and the survivors have been talking to anyone and everyone for decades. You then changed the subject.
And you never answered the question, Princess ... is your "Heroic Jew" reference an ethnic slur?

What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.

Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?

If even just a few survivors had come forward with this threat of prison story in a timely fashion the entire alleged "cover-up" would have blown up.
In fact, I believe the results of American gov't hearings and investigations which, as you know, concluded that the attack was a fog-of-war friendly fire incident.
Why do you have so little faith in America that you reject those findings?

Because all governments lie.
Why do you question the integrity of those who were actually on board Liberty?

"The USS Liberty Veterans Association has established, prima facie, the commission of war crimes by the state of Israel against US military personnel and civilians. These Americans volunteered to serve their country. They followed all orders given to them. In the course of following those orders, they were suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the state of Israel and their country did absolutely nothing to protect them or seek justice on their behalf..

"The failure of the United States government to undertake a complete investigation of the Israeli attack on USS Liberty has resulted in grievous harm to the surviving victims, as well as to the families of all crewmembers.

"Equally serious, this failure has resulted in an indelible stain upon the honor of the United States of America. It has sent a signal to America's serving men and women that their welfare is always subordinate to the interests of a foreign state.

"The only conceivable reason for this failure is the political decision to put the interests of Israel ahead of those of American servicemen, employees, and veterans.[66]

"Finally, the fact that the Israeli government and its surrogates in the United States have worked so long and hard to prevent an inquiry itself speaks volumes as to what such an inquiry would find."

What do you suppose elites in Israel and the US have to fear from the first full investigation into Israel's deliberate assault of Liberty?

Do you consider yourself an official surrogate of all Jews?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

 

[irosie91]

What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.

Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?

If even just a few survivors had come forward with this threat of prison story in a timely fashion the entire alleged "cover-up" would have blown up.
In fact, I believe the results of American gov't hearings and investigations which, as you know, concluded that the attack was a fog-of-war friendly fire incident.
Why do you have so little faith in America that you reject those findings?

Because all governments lie.

Why do you question the integrity of those who were actually on board Liberty?

"The USS Liberty Veterans Association has established, prima facie, the commission of war crimes by the state of Israel against US military personnel and civilians. These Americans volunteered to serve their country. They followed all orders given to them. In the
course of following those orders, they were suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the state of Israel and their country did absolutely nothing to protect them or seek justice on their behalf..

"The failure of the United States government to undertake a complete investigation of the
Israeli attack on USS Liberty has resulted in grievous harm to the surviving victims, as well as to the families of all crewmembers.

"Equally serious, this failure has resulted in an indelible stain upon the honor of the United States of America. It has sent a signal to America's serving men and women that their
welfare is always subordinate to the interests of a foreign state.

"The only conceivable reason for this failure is the political decision to put the interests of Israel ahead of those of American servicemen, employees, and veterans.[66]

"Finally, the fact that the Israeli government and its surrogates in the United States have worked so long and hard to prevent an inquiry itself speaks volumes as to what such an inquiry would find."

What do you suppose elites in Israel and the US have to fear from the first full investigation into Israel's deliberate assault of Liberty?

Do you consider yourself an official surrogate of all Jews?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

There are lots of group action law suits against the navy and army. Even I had
very peripheral involvement in some. ------they are written up petition style
as above------I would tell you about my own experience with such law suits---
but I cannot divulge any information------doing so would be a crime.
The gag thing on the Liberty boys is -----standard for the navy for any
investigated incident. I find it amusing that islamo nazi pigs try to paint it up
as something "special" for Israel

 

[docmauser1]

He says, "the Jews did it."

The Liberty soup?

 

[georgephillip]

If even just a few survivors had come forward with this threat of prison story in a timely fashion the entire alleged "cover-up" would have blown up.
In fact, I believe the results of American gov't hearings and investigations which, as you know, concluded that the attack was a fog-of-war friendly fire incident.
Why do you have so little faith in America that you reject those findings?

Because all governments lie.

Why do you question the integrity of those who were actually on board Liberty?

"The USS Liberty Veterans Association has established, prima facie, the commission of war crimes by the state of Israel against US military personnel and civilians. These Americans volunteered to serve their country. They followed all orders given to them. In the
course of following those orders, they were suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the state of Israel and their country did absolutely nothing to protect them or seek justice on their behalf..

"The failure of the United States government to undertake a complete investigation of the
Israeli attack on USS Liberty has resulted in grievous harm to the surviving victims, as well as to the families of all crewmembers.

"Equally serious, this failure has resulted in an indelible stain upon the honor of the United States of America. It has sent a signal to America's serving men and women that their
welfare is always subordinate to the interests of a foreign state.

"The only conceivable reason for this failure is the political decision to put the interests of Israel ahead of those of American servicemen, employees, and veterans.[66]

"Finally, the fact that the Israeli government and its surrogates in the United States have worked so long and hard to prevent an inquiry itself speaks volumes as to what such an inquiry would find."

What do you suppose elites in Israel and the US have to fear from the first full investigation into Israel's deliberate assault of Liberty?

Do you consider yourself an official surrogate of all Jews?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

There are lots of group action law suits against the navy and army. Even I had
very peripheral involvement in some. ------they are written up petition style
as above------I would tell you about my own experience with such law suits---
but I cannot divulge any information------doing so would be a crime.
The gag thing on the Liberty boys is -----standard for the navy for any
investigated incident. I find it amusing that islamo nazi pigs try to paint it up
as something "special" for Israel

There is not another nation on this planet "special" enough to kill 34 US service members in international waters and get away with it. Just out of idle curiosity, has the Jewish state ever committed any war crimes in your opinion?

 

[ima]

What Kind of State in Israel?

It's in a state of denial.

 

[docmauser1]

Because all governments lie.

Cool. So many trees for the rabble rousers to bark up!

 

[docmauser1]

What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial.

Does it mean it's agnostic?

 

[ima]

What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial.

Does it mean it's agnostic?

Agnostics accept proof when they see it. Please try again.

 

[irosie91]

What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial.

Does it mean it's agnostic?

a DENIER---is called "KAFFIR" in arabic-----it is a capital crime
to DENY the absolute veracity of the koran (kufr). In the days of the
INQUISITION----which spanned a very large area of the planet --
even reaching to the americas----Denial of the official canon of
the christian church (heresy) ----was also a capital crime.

today---there are people ----like sherri----who LONG FOR
THE GOOD OLD DAYS------<<this concept is actually the
basis for the NOBLE ARAB SPRING-----and the
HEZBOLLAH program of Iran. It is also the basis of
NAZISM

 

[docmauser1]

What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial.

Does it mean it's agnostic?

Agnostics accept proof when they see it. Please try again.

What about blind agnostics?

 

[jodylee]

A squatter state!

 

[Hossfly]

A squatter state!

Ain't it a pity, Palisimians squatting on the Promised Land? Joshua would be mortified!