What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[Vast LWC]

where have you been??? Our kids are the dumbest in the civilized world thanks to liberalism. Conservatives want a revolution for the most obvious reasons on earth, while liberals lack the IQ to understand at all.

Actually, it ranked "average" out of the 34 OECD developed nations.

Attempting to blame the failing or success of American schools in relation to other developed nations on the fact that America has a public school system would be an odd argument to make, since all the nations that rank higher than us also have a public school system...

 

[Vast LWC]

Jefferson was a Republican for very very limited government as are Ron Paul, Grover Norquist, Newt, Tea Party, and Reagan.

Reagan did not in fact provide a more limited government. He expanded government spending by quite a large amount.

And "Republican" does not equal "Conservative", and nether term is a synonym for "Libertarian".

See the following chart:

The Tea Party, for instance, regardless of it's origination (which lies in some doubt), is a conservative movement.

Which means it is in support of governmental control concerning morality issues, but is against government tampering in matters of business or economic growth.

 

[Clementine]

You know, narcissists can't tolerate criticism and arguing with them sets them off.

yes great points!! The liberal is a morality bigot. They feel superior merely because they support welfare of all kinds. Liberal programs amounted to a near genocide against American blacks but even that did not slow liberals down.


we could survive slavery, we could survive Jim Crow, but we could not survive liberalism- Walter Williams

Even in the antebellum era, when slaves often weren’t permitted to wed, most black children lived with a biological mother and father. During Reconstruction and up until the 1940s, 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today, more than 70% of black children are born to single women. “The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldn’t do, what Jim Crow couldn’t do, what the harshest racism couldn’t do,” Mr. Williams says. “And that is to destroy the black family.”

It's like the parent who spoils the child and ensures that they will never be a well-adjusted, self-sufficient adult. It's cruel to the extreme even though the parents (and liberals) feel good about coddling them and claim they are helping them. When Cain was talking about blacks leaving the liberal plantation, he was talking about the same thing you are. Liberals will never admit what they've done to those families, and keep doing.

Every liberal I've ever talked to believes that government should create even more programs for the poor. They are all about freebies. Just lately, that Fluke woman whined in front of congress about getting birth control. It's never the responsibility of the individual, always the tax payers.

My brother is a liberal. Hasn't worked in over 30 years. Finally, after 12 years he got his disability. I don't know how he managed to get a bad back like he claims and the doctors couldn't find much wrong. But, enough whining and he finally gets paid to do what he does anyway- stay home and party. He does manage to go hiking or skiing if the fancy strikes him, just don't expect a day's work because he's not able. He's always harping about the wealthy people. Not that anyone got wealthy off him because he doesn't pay his bills. He's moved a total of 13 times in 25 years, usually due to getting evicted for not paying rent. His utilities were always shut off despite getting help from the state. Always used the money for beer and cigarettes, so I guess there just wasn't enough left over to pay bills. He had his own cell phone for the last 10 years, but suddenly cancelled his plan when Obama started the freebie cell phone program. Now my brother has 3 free phones from 3 different companies. Nice to know they don't compare notes. My brother thought it was lame that he only gets 250 minutes with each phone. He constantly reads the HuffnPuff site or the Daily KO and he thinks he knows everything. He complains that government should pay for college, full tuition, for anyone who wants to go. Of course, the middle class and wealthy shouldn't get anything, just pay for everybody else. He begrudges me having a nice vehicle and nice things. He doesn't seem to envy the concept of working every day to make monthly payments on what I have, just has ill feelings that I can even afford to do things. He also believe that the government should provide free internet to everyone, except the middle class and poor. Of course, he'll want a computer thrown in on the deal.

He constantly bad mouths the Republicans and literally loathes the wealthy. He can't even imagine how anyone got wealthy. They must have stolen it or inherited it. The whole work thing is foreign to him and he gives you a deer in the headlight look if you explain that some people sacrificed for years to start their own companies. Many wealthy people can tell you stories of living in a small, crappy apartment and living on Ramen or hotdogs until they achieved success. Anyone see that photo of Microsoft people when Gates first started? They looked like a bunch of poor kids and worked out of a garage, I believe.

My brother is one of those who feels that no one should have it any better than the next guy, regardless of effort. He defends communism, though he wouldn't want to give up anything he has and he would have a fit if someone took from him to give to someone else. He has never filed taxes and didn't want anything taken from his check when he held several jobs in his younger days. He wasn't kind enough to want to support the poor with a penny of his own money, yet he bitterly hates the current tax payers who pay his way and others like him.

I can't figure him out. On one hand, he tries to sound caring for others, but then spews the most vile, hateful stuff. I have met some others like that. Don't dare suggest that they should join the workers if they are able. Don't threaten to take their freebies, they'll bite.

Just like that woman who believed that Obama was going to pay her mortgage and put gas in her tank, many believe that is government's true role.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

where have you been??? Our kids are the dumbest in the civilized world thanks to liberalism. Conservatives want a revolution for the most obvious reasons on earth, while liberals lack the IQ to understand at all.[/quote]

[
Actually, it ranked "average" out of the 34 OECD developed nations.

15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.

Those scores are all higher than those from 2003 and 2006, but far behind the highest scoring countries, including South Korea, Finland and Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai in China and Canada.

"This is an absolute wake-up call for America," U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in an interview with The Associated Press. "The results are extraordinarily challenging to us and we have to deal with the brutal truth. We have to get much more serious about investing in education."

[
Attempting to blame the failing or success of American schools in relation to other developed nations on the fact that America has a public school system would be an odd argument to make, since all the nations that rank higher than us also have a public school system...

yes, they also have far more compliant populations too. They are not undisciplined freedom loving melting pots. They have feudal, monarchical, or communist histories, plus as cultures they value education while in America education is not cool in many liberal communities. Those countries do better at socialized health care than we do too because it suits them far more than conservative freedom loving Americans.

 

[Foxfyre]

this is obviously because independents decide elections, not because conservatives and libertarians are not conservatives and libertarians.
This is a concept far over a liberals head I'm afraid.

But Conservatives are not Libertarians.

True libertarians would agree as much with true liberals as they would with true conservatives.

Conservatives ARE libertarian - Little "L" as emulated by the Founders. Also these days called classical liberalism to differentiate from the more modern social liberals that are the subject of this thread.

Do not confuse the radical right with conservatism any more than it is accurate to confuse the Unabomber or tree spikers or the people spitting on returning military veterans with liberalism.

You are correct though that the libertarians (little "L") are the true liberals if your definition of true liberalism is individual liberty, accountability, responsibility, self determination, and living with the consequences of one's choices which is the values of the Founders. True libertarianism sees freedom as being free from a large central government who determines what will and will not be legal and what rights we will have,. And they saw freedom as people choosing a society that is aesthetically pleasing and looking to government to enforce the laws they want in place so long as such laws violate nobody's unalienable rights.

The radical libertarians would have almost no laws governing social behavior, nor would anyone be allowed to organize a society omitting 'objectionable' elements. In other words, they would impose a different kind of government authoritarianism.

Social liberals these days seem to want or at least condone a government that takes whatever it wants to distribute to whomever it wants. Social liberals these days mostly seem to have no clue of the concept of unalienable rights; or if they do they emotionally subordinate such rights to their perceived needs of the whole.

I have yet to meet a liberal on this board willing to really understand and discuss that concept, however. And therein lies my frustration.

 

[Intense]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

I think the concepts you might be trying to articulate are "Government by the consent of the Governed", and "Enumerated Powers", to start anyway. Big words hurt their tiny brains. Sometimes Chants work better.

 

[Vast LWC]

15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.

Unless I'm below average in math, and I am not, that would be just about "average".

Those scores are all higher than those from 2003 and 2006, but far behind the highest scoring countries, including South Korea, Finland and Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai in China and Canada.

All of which have more socialized education systems than ours...

"This is an absolute wake-up call for America," U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in an interview with The Associated Press. "The results are extraordinarily challenging to us and we have to deal with the brutal truth. We have to get much more serious about investing in education."

yes, they also have far more compliant populations too. They are not undisciplined freedom loving melting pots. They have feudal, monarchical, or communist histories, plus as cultures they value education while in America education is not cool in many liberal communities. Those countries do better at socialized health care than we do too because it suits them far more than conservative freedom loving Americans.

OK... I'm not really sure that I'm convinced of this. Do you have any statistics to back up your assertion?

Perhaps some numbers on how much more "Freedom Loving" Americans are than Canadians?

I'm not sure how one might measure that...

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Reagan did not in fact provide a more limited government. He expanded government spending by quite a large amount.

dear, Reagan was not the government he was merely the President!!
Always try to remember that independent decide elections!!

And "Republican" does not equal "Conservative", and nether term is a synonym for "Libertarian".

all speak a lot of limited government while liberals speak of the opposite

The Tea Party, for instance, regardless of it's origination (which lies in some doubt), is a conservative movement.

yes it for for limits on spending, the liberals hated them

Which means it is in support of governmental control concerning morality issues,

check you facts Tea Party arose in response to BOs spending and debt

but is against government tampering in matters of business or economic growth.

Tea Party was about spending and debt

 

[Intense]

Jefferson was a Republican for very very limited government as are Ron Paul, Grover Norquist, Newt, Tea Party, and Reagan.

Reagan did not in fact provide a more limited government. He expanded government spending by quite a large amount.

And "Republican" does not equal "Conservative", and nether term is a synonym for "Libertarian".

See the following chart:

The Tea Party, for instance, regardless of it's origination (which lies in some doubt), is a conservative movement.

Which means it is in support of governmental control concerning morality issues, but is against government tampering in matters of business or economic growth.

Yes and Know. I'm Tea Party, on certain issues I might find myself on any part of that chart. I can easily call myself a Conservative, a Classic Liberal, a Republican, an Environmentalist. The Tea Party might not what you all label it at all on the Left. You are Profiling on a false premise.

 

[Intense]

15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.

Unless I'm below average in math, and I am not, that would be just about "average".

Those scores are all higher than those from 2003 and 2006, but far behind the highest scoring countries, including South Korea, Finland and Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai in China and Canada.

All of which have more socialized education systems than ours...

"This is an absolute wake-up call for America," U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in an interview with The Associated Press. "The results are extraordinarily challenging to us and we have to deal with the brutal truth. We have to get much more serious about investing in education."

yes, they also have far more compliant populations too. They are not undisciplined freedom loving melting pots. They have feudal, monarchical, or communist histories, plus as cultures they value education while in America education is not cool in many liberal communities. Those countries do better at socialized health care than we do too because it suits them far more than conservative freedom loving Americans.

OK... I'm not really sure that I'm convinced of this. Do you have any statistics to back up your assertion?

Perhaps some numbers on how much more "Freedom Loving" Americans are than Canadians?

I'm not sure how one might measure that...

We are more Freedom Loving than the Canadians. Here is where they come for fun, for opportunity, and to learn how to Skate and play Hockey.

 

[Vast LWC]

Conservatives ARE libertarian - Little "L" as emulated by the Founders. Also these days called classical liberalism to differentiate from the more modern social liberals that are the subject of this thread.

The meaning of terms changes over 200 years. "Classical Liberalism" has nothing to do with modern Liberalism.

And, in this day and age, Libertarians and Conservatives are not the same, at all. It's the difference between Ron Paul and Rick Santorum.

Do not confuse the radical right with conservatism any more than it is accurate to confuse the Unabomber or tree spikers or the people spitting on returning military veterans with liberalism.

While the "radical right" doesn't encompass all of Conservatism, they certainly embody the radical elements of it. Conservatism, by definition, would be the right-wing side of the Nolan Scale.

You are correct though that the libertarians (little "L") are the true liberals if your definition of true liberalism is individual liberty, accountability, responsibility, self determination, and living with the consequences of one's choices which is the values of the Founders. True libertarianism sees freedom as being free from a large central government who determines what will and will not be legal and what rights we will have,. And they saw freedom as people choosing a society that is aesthetically pleasing and looking to government to enforce the laws they want in place so long as such laws violate nobody's unalienable rights.

The radical libertarians would have almost no laws governing social behavior, nor would anyone be allowed to organize a society omitting 'objectionable' elements. In other words, they would impose a different kind of government authoritarianism.

Social liberals these days seem to want or at least condone a government that takes whatever it wants to distribute to whomever it wants. Social liberals these days mostly seem to have no clue of the concept of unalienable rights; or if they do they emotionally subordinate such rights to their perceived needs of the whole.

I have yet to meet a liberal on this board willing to really understand and discuss that concept, however. And therein lies my frustration.

I am not saying that Liberatarianism and Modern Liberalism are in any way more alike than Conservatism and Libertarianism.

And when you say "Social Liberal", it would appear you are referring to "Progressive Liberals" (?), which, due to their inclination toward the "Statist" part of the scale, are in fact quite a distance from Libertarians.

I took an excellent test recently, that rates the degree and inclination of one's political leanings.

The Political Compass - Test

I think I scored -4 Liberal, -4 LIbertarian

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Unless I'm below average in math, and I am not, that would be just about "average".

you said OECD I said, world! Throw in and weight China Japan Korea. Average is not a brutal truth!!

OK... I'm not really sure that I'm convinced of this. Do you have any statistics to back up your assertion?

well, American kids are the dumbest in the world, the schools are liberal cess pools, have been for a long time, and the liberal devils support the status quo. Unless you think American kids are born inferior then what other explanation makes sense.

Perhaps some numbers on how much more "Freedom Loving" Americans are than Canadians?

I'm not sure how one might measure that

We are more Freedom Loving than the Canadians. Here is where they come for fun, for opportunity, and to learn how to Skate and play Hockey.

who's talking about Canada?

Fixed Quote tags.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

And, in this day and age, Libertarians and Conservatives are not the same, at all. It's the difference between Ron Paul and Rick Santorum.

both Republicans and both against abortion!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Why are liberals hard to argue with?

Answer: like all bigots they are impossible to argue with because they are based in emotion rather than logic.

They feel superior merely because they support welfare entitlement programs.
How do you argue with a bigot's feeling of superiority.

 

[The T]

15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.

Unless I'm below average in math, and I am not, that would be just about "average".



All of which have more socialized education systems than ours...

"This is an absolute wake-up call for America," U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in an interview with The Associated Press. "The results are extraordinarily challenging to us and we have to deal with the brutal truth. We have to get much more serious about investing in education."

yes, they also have far more compliant populations too. They are not undisciplined freedom loving melting pots. They have feudal, monarchical, or communist histories, plus as cultures they value education while in America education is not cool in many liberal communities. Those countries do better at socialized health care than we do too because it suits them far more than conservative freedom loving Americans.

OK... I'm not really sure that I'm convinced of this. Do you have any statistics to back up your assertion?

Perhaps some numbers on how much more "Freedom Loving" Americans are than Canadians?

I'm not sure how one might measure that...

We are more Freedom Loving than the Canadians. Here is where they come for fun, for opportunity, and to learn how to Skate and play Hockey.

AND...to go to Disney World

 

[Intense]

And, in this day and age, Libertarians and Conservatives are not the same, at all. It's the difference between Ron Paul and Rick Santorum.

both Republicans and both against abortion!!

You are Profiling and Generalizing.

 

[koshergrl]

Why are liberals hard to argue with?

Answer: like all bigots they are impossible to argue with because they are based in emotion rather than logic.

They feel superior merely because they support welfare entitlement programs.
How do you argue with a bigot's feeling of superiority.

 

[Intense]

Unless I'm below average in math, and I am not, that would be just about "average".



All of which have more socialized education systems than ours...



OK... I'm not really sure that I'm convinced of this. Do you have any statistics to back up your assertion?

Perhaps some numbers on how much more "Freedom Loving" Americans are than Canadians?

I'm not sure how one might measure that...

We are more Freedom Loving than the Canadians. Here is where they come for fun, for opportunity, and to learn how to Skate and play Hockey.

AND...to go to Disney World

I like Canadians, but I think they are trying to take us over. They can be very sneaky.

What is it going to take to get a response here. ..... Canadians throw baseballs like girls!

 

[The T]

Why are liberals hard to argue with?

Answer: like all bigots they are impossible to argue with because they are based in emotion rather than logic.

They feel superior merely because they support welfare entitlement programs.
How do you argue with a bigot's feeling of superiority.

Anything goes as they shun responsibility and the other guy has to pay for it.

 

[The T]

We are more Freedom Loving than the Canadians. Here is where they come for fun, for opportunity, and to learn how to Skate and play Hockey.

AND...to go to Disney World

I like Canadians, but I think they are trying to take us over. They can be very sneaky.

What is it going to take to get a response here. ..... Canadians throw baseballs like girls!