What should abortion laws be?

[Bern80]

LMAO!!! I love you JD_2B! I hope to have the time to add to this discussion later on but it seems you're doing my half just fine!

Hey we look forward to it. You can't do any worse than your friend here.

 

[JD_2B]

ictims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again

Wait... Did you just compare every day you spend with your child to being raped?

DID I??

Nope!! I said a 13 year old (the ones that you apparently also advocate the raping of, you fucking psychopath) VICTIM should have the CHOICE of how her body is treated, by making HER OWN medical fucking decisions.
Christ, you are such a sociopath. WTF...

And did you just cry that you should allowed to kill your baby because you like guys who beat you (as you said in another thread) and they don't like you having stretch marks?

Nope. Not once have I said either thing.

Oh wait.. I broke my own rules. This post is full of word twisting, obviously changing things I have actually said into things that I never said, and never would say....
Well, Jackoff.. Bye!!!

So your own desire to get gangbanged by shallow guys is more important than the life of your child...

And they let you keep your kid?

Anyone else waiting for her to be the next woman in the news to drown her kid because the guy she wants doesn't want a child around?

There's nothing "semantic" about pointing out that a child outside the womb has more stimuli than a baby inside the womb. Believe it or not, "semantic" and "strawman" don't mean "arguments I don't like and can't answer".

That, in and of itself, was an ad-hominem..

No, it';s not, you illiterate c*nt. Try learning what you're talking about for a change.

BTW, Norma McCormey didn't have an abortion, she admits to lying n court, and she's now an extreme pro-lifer.
Try selling her your little spiel.

No need.

 

[JD_2B]

What a shame.. so, now that nobody will listen to your endlessly flaming little mental meltdowns,....





y'all suddenly have nothing to say???






GO FIGURE!!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Please stop disingenuously conflating different issues. We are not talking about "independent" in the sense of being able to cook his own meals. We are talking independence in the biological sense, something you have made painfully obvious you cannot answer, given the way you run off and start talking about extraneous topics every time biology rears its ugly head in your path. You are fooling no one with this bait-and-switch nonsense.

Any reasonable person would infer that a biological dependence that relies on ONE single solitary organism remaining alive for the sole purpose of sustainment for the other organism is one that only involves ONE independent organism, and that would be the woman. Nobody in their right fucking mind would consider a youngster anything other than independent just because someone else cooks for them. This is a societal responsibility, one that is only EVER taken willingly. Bringing a child into the world willingly is one person's choice for them, and another person can make the choice to do the diaper changing, cooking, breastfeeding, etc. If a woman births a baby and nurses it, and becomes that baby's caregiver, it is because she is adding a person to her familial society, by choice. This is not an empirically physical dependence that the baby has. If the woman dies, the baby's dad, aunt, uncle, grandparent, neighbor, mailman, etc, can just as easily ensure that it gets a bottle as the late mother could have..
With a fetus, the physical dependence is empirical. Without the mother, the fetus' chances of making it to birth are nill.
This is empirical, not some bait and switch bullshit that I am just pulling out of my ass. Prove otherwise, and we can talk. I will not entertain any more of these bullshit whiny fucking posts by you three. Get through it.





YES it DOES. The fetus without the mother's blood being delivered to it, is inevitably miscarried. THAT is empirical. The fetus can not produce an ample supply of blood to its own system to survive gestation, and it can not manage its own wastes during gestation either. EMPIRICALLY.
Prove me wrong, if you can't swallow it, or shut the fuck up.




You have me all wrong. I am not pro death. I realize that you are anti abortion to the point of coercing your own (hypothetically) raped 13 year old daughter into having to deal with 9 months of gestation and painful childbirth, all because you think that a 13 year old is going to somehow experience all kinds of happiness by her screaming brat whose eyes would remind her of her attacker on a daily basis, and probably haunt her until the day that she dies.. But hey if that is what you call "pro life", then that is all you. I say let her decide for herself, without needing your permission. Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again, by FORCING them to give the rapist the winning ticket, and go through with an entire pregnancy, after which time, she will be on welfare, and have to explain to VARIOUS men and women and her little teenage friends where her kid's daddy is.. Fucking BITCH. You are goddamned lucky I am not your daughter. That is called POWER AND CONTROL, and even your teenaged daughter should not be subjected to it, BY YOU. How DARE you try to expect everyone to live up to some bullshit right to life standard that you have subjectively set for a fetus, with NO concern for the actual PERSON involved, as well??? I'm tellin ya.. if I was your kid, you would have a VERY different story to tell.



Jurisdiction of municipalities is a far cry from human autonomy.

If you own your colon, you own the space inside of it, you stupid bitch. If you own your heart, you also own the blood that pumps through it. A Uterus is not some empty fucking space that is public fucking property for voters to decide on which procedures women should or should not be allowed to have done. Used to be that people like you would scream to high heaven over fucking BIRTH control, when it first came out. Get the fuck over yourself.




Again, everything within the walls of a person's skin is theirs for the medical decision making.. I could care less what kind of strawman you are trying to pull at here, but it is a GIANT LEAP from reality.



That, in and of itself, was an ad-hominem.. Your argument for "oh the space in your uterus is public property, for me to vote on, because I do not agree with the FACTS here" is not going to get any BETTER by claiming that my FACTS are the result of my not liking your arguments. Your arguments are just ridiculous.




That is not what I said. Again, and this time I am saying it to you as a means to an end- I am not responding to any posts, even partially, if you are going to twist things around and play word games, or call me names all because you disagree.


































Autonomy is defined as self governance, which does not give any empirical results of personhood in the fetal stage.











No you would not have been correct. The only problem before Roe was that no woman who had ever filed for abortion rights was actually pregnant at the time. Its a little thing called "standing". Roe had it first.

No, dumbass, because unlike you, I don't reject the entire dictionary as an unreliable source because it refuses to define words the way I want them. Therefore, I know what the word "fetus" means.

The dictionary is not a source of empirical evidence for personhood, at least where the definition of autonomy is concerned.

PS- = me laughing at your non attempts at debate, obviously having a meltdown. Get a fucking grip, will ya?

LMAO!!! I love you JD_2B! I hope to have the time to add to this discussion later on but it seems you're doing my half just fine!

Oh, so you were planning to argue that dogs can impregnate humans, too? In that case, I'm glad you're too busy to clutter up these boards further. Run along.

 

[Cecilie1200]

LMAO!!! I love you JD_2B! I hope to have the time to add to this discussion later on but it seems you're doing my half just fine!

Hey we look forward to it. You can't do any worse than your friend here.

More pie-eyed optimism.

 

[Bern80]

What a shame.. so, now that nobody will listen to your endlessly flaming little mental meltdowns,....





y'all suddenly have nothing to say???

Oh JD, you know better. I can do this forever.

LMAO!! First of all, I never said that the dictionary's definition of autonomy WAS wrong. Again, you are getting all huffy and taking things out of context. I said that fetuses are not autonomous.

Then what would be the point of stating that the dictionary is not peer reviewed if one is not trying to justify using a word in a way in which the dictionary does not define it? We've already seen you do this with regard to the word person.

Short and sweet? Fine

1)A child doesn't care about your made up distinctions between types of dependence. I repeat for the umpteenth time. If it is not cared for by someone it will die. At best you can perhaps make a distinction between physical RESPONSIBILITY and social RESPONSIBILITY, that I'd buy. But that is a lot different then who and what the child is dependent on. Legally, YOU are responsible for your child until you go through the legal process of relinquishing your guardianship of it, BUT (next point)....

2) You stated NO one is responsible for keeping ANYONE alive. Therefore you are arguing it really should be your legal right to do absolutely nothing. Again I'm not playing semantics here. When someone says NO responsibility, I assume they mean NO responsibility. It's you women always telling us neanderthals NO indeed does mean NO. So either man up and put some qualifiers with NO or explain why you don't have that responsibility despite what the law says.

 

[FA_Q2]

Wow, the last ten pages are the same damn shit over again. JD – you life support argument failed ten pages ago to viability questions as did the breathing without a single shred of evidence to support it. I HAVE posted support for fetal brain development and all that you have done is misquote and misrepresent what the journals have stated. All the links you have posted are off the topic and have nothing to do with your actual stance. It strikes me as funny that you were against abortion up until the point that YOU NEEDED ONE! THAT IS A CLASSIC EMOTIONAL RESPONSE and speaks to the true intent of that stance. CONVENIENCE. That is the issue we are all taking with abortion on demand. I know people who have used abortion as a means of birth control and that is abhorrent. You will stand on your right to end another life for the simple fact that it may give you stretch marks!

JD
You have me all wrong. I am not pro death. I realize that you are anti abortion to the point of coercing your own (hypothetically) raped 13 year old daughter into having to deal with 9 months of gestation and painful childbirth, all because you think that a 13 year old is going to somehow experience all kinds of happiness by her screaming brat whose eyes would remind her of her attacker on a daily basis, and probably haunt her until the day that she dies.. But hey if that is what you call "pro life", then that is all you. I say let her decide for herself, without needing your permission. Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again, by FORCING them to give the rapist the winning ticket, and go through with an entire pregnancy, after which time, she will be on welfare, and have to explain to VARIOUS men and women and her little teenage friends where her kid's daddy is.. Fucking BITCH. You are goddamned lucky I am not your daughter. That is called POWER AND CONTROL, and even your teenaged daughter should not be subjected to it, BY YOU. How DARE you try to expect everyone to live up to some bullshit right to life standard that you have subjectively set for a fetus, with NO concern for the actual PERSON involved, as well??? I'm tellin ya.. if I was your kid, you would have a VERY different story to tell.

AND YOU ACCUSE OTHERS OF TWISTING YOUR WORDS. Bern, pro and myself NEVER stated anything of the sort of this. As a matter of fact this was SPECIFICALLY addressed and the outcome is the opposite of your wild accusations. The interesting part is here though….

Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again

Talk about fucking vain. Is that how you really see this world? Then I can see how you support such a failing position.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

[
Christ, you are such a sociopath. WTF...

Says the woman who compared every day of her child's existence for 18 years to being raped.

 

[rightwinger]

Abortion is a done deal right now. There is no way we are going back to the hodgepodge of the 60s. The best thing is to reduce the need for abortion through education, birth control, free prenatal care, adoption services and low cost child care

 

[JD_2B]

Wow, the last ten pages are the same damn shit over again. JD – you life support argument failed ten pages ago to viability questions as did the breathing without a single shred of evidence to support it. I HAVE posted support for fetal brain development and all that you have done is misquote and misrepresent what the journals have stated. All the links you have posted are off the topic and have nothing to do with your actual stance. It strikes me as funny that you were against abortion up until the point that YOU NEEDED ONE! THAT IS A CLASSIC EMOTIONAL RESPONSE and speaks to the true intent of that stance. CONVENIENCE. That is the issue we are all taking with abortion on demand. I know people who have used abortion as a means of birth control and that is abhorrent. You will stand on your right to end another life for the simple fact that it may give you stretch marks!

LMAO!! You people fucking SUPPORT abortion on demand for convenience reasons for the first trimester, so whatever REASONS you want to play off as inconsequential at THIIS point, is just a whole mess of rhetoric. Furthermore, I never said that I personally would choose to have an abortion for avoiding stretch marks, so your claim that I would do this is out in left field, at best.

You have not been at all active in the conversation, either, so whatever bullshit you want to try to pull here about my medical journal articles being unrelated to be "breathing makes it a person" stance, is obviously a shot in the fucking dark, as well, clearly made by a blind man who did nothing more than skim through the 35 past pages, at best.

JD
You have me all wrong. I am not pro death. I realize that you are anti abortion to the point of coercing your own (hypothetically) raped 13 year old daughter into having to deal with 9 months of gestation and painful childbirth, all because you think that a 13 year old is going to somehow experience all kinds of happiness by her screaming brat whose eyes would remind her of her attacker on a daily basis, and probably haunt her until the day that she dies.. But hey if that is what you call "pro life", then that is all you. I say let her decide for herself, without needing your permission. Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again, by FORCING them to give the rapist the winning ticket, and go through with an entire pregnancy, after which time, she will be on welfare, and have to explain to VARIOUS men and women and her little teenage friends where her kid's daddy is.. Fucking BITCH. You are goddamned lucky I am not your daughter. That is called POWER AND CONTROL, and even your teenaged daughter should not be subjected to it, BY YOU. How DARE you try to expect everyone to live up to some bullshit right to life standard that you have subjectively set for a fetus, with NO concern for the actual PERSON involved, as well??? I'm tellin ya.. if I was your kid, you would have a VERY different story to tell.

AND YOU ACCUSE OTHERS OF TWISTING YOUR WORDS. Bern, pro and myself NEVER stated anything of the sort of this. As a matter of fact this was SPECIFICALLY addressed and the outcome is the opposite of your wild accusations. The interesting part is here though….

You ignorant bastard.. Pro started another thread in the religion and ethics forum on when it is ethically okay to end a life, etc., to which Cecile answered flat out that if her own daughter (13) was raped and pregnant, she would coerce her into having the baby, and all this "My kids know my wrath, but there would be hell to pay if she aborted" bullshit, as well. PROLETARIAN likes to link to other posts, and while I did not link to it, her own stance was no less honestly spelled out here. I didnt twist shit. Go look for yourself.

Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again

Talk about fucking vain. Is that how you really see this world? Then I can see how you support such a failing position.

Victims should not be treated like baby machines any more than any other woman should. When you figure out that my uterus is not some kind of public property for the common public to lay restrictions of choice upon, get back to me, please. =)

 

[JD_2B]

[
Christ, you are such a sociopath. WTF...

Says the woman who compared every day of her child's existence for 18 years to being raped.

I did not.. you just personalize my comments as a means of using rhetoric, to try and further some ridiculous agenda of making women's uteruses public fucking prpoperty... Nice try.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

[
Christ, you are such a sociopath. WTF...

Says the woman who compared every day of her child's existence for 18 years to being raped.

I did not..

Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked,

 

[JD_2B]

What a shame.. so, now that nobody will listen to your endlessly flaming little mental meltdowns,....





y'all suddenly have nothing to say???

Oh JD, you know better. I can do this forever.

Go ahead.. just don't expect me to respond to a bunch of ridiculous word twisting, emotional hyperbole, or any other false propaganda tactics your side "(including Norma herself!) is infamous for.

LMAO!! First of all, I never said that the dictionary's definition of autonomy WAS wrong. Again, you are getting all huffy and taking things out of context. I said that fetuses are not autonomous.

Then what would be the point of stating that the dictionary is not peer reviewed if one is not trying to justify using a word in a way in which the dictionary does not define it? We've already seen you do this with regard to the word person.

LMAO!!
A chairperson and a fetus being one and the same, even in concept, is ludicris!! That was the dictionary's example, to give you a better idea of the concept of what being a person means.
I have done nothing with the dictionary definiton, besides make fun of you guys for grasping at straws, POSTING a definition which includes "chairperson", "salesperson", etc.. and yet not understanding that while all salespersons and chairpersons are people, not "ONE chairperson, or salesperson, or spokesperson is a fetus. I have asked you to prove me wrong on this, but you cannot, because these facts are just empirical. You can't BEND the truth, when the truth is that my empirical facts outweigh any arguments for potential that your bleeding fucking hearts tell you to fight for.

Short and sweet? Fine..

Long winded and detailed is fine by me, obviously. I never asked for you to make it short and sweet. I only asked that you stop playing rhetoric and semantics games.

1)A child doesn't care about your made up distinctions between types of dependence. I repeat for the umpteenth time. If it is not cared for by someone it will die. At best you can perhaps make a distinction between physical RESPONSIBILITY and social RESPONSIBILITY, that I'd buy. But that is a lot different then who and what the child is dependent on. Legally, YOU are responsible for your child until you go through the legal process of relinquishing your guardianship of it, BUT (next point)....

And paying someone to insert a vacuum into my uterus for a good thorough cleaning is my means of legally "relinquishing guardianship" of it, even if YOU don't think that my life needs merit such an action. Tough.

2) You stated NO one is responsible for keeping ANYONE alive. Therefore you are arguing it really should be your legal right to do absolutely nothing. Again I'm not playing semantics here. When someone says NO responsibility, I assume they mean NO responsibility. It's you women always telling us neanderthals NO indeed does mean NO. So either man up and put some qualifiers with NO or explain why you don't have that responsibility despite what the law says.

Nobody is biologically responsible for another's survival. That is empirical, and the rest of your response to this is entirely ridiculous, because yes you are arguing semantics, and NO this is not about sociologoical responsibility, the emotional attachment that you are placing on pregnancies. When you are not the person who is pregnant, then regardless of your feelings about the contents of the uterus, which is empirically the contents of the woman, it is then HER medical decision to make, not yours, because it is not YOU who has to actually BE pregnant.

You people won't even flinch if a fetus is stillborn.. And do you know how many stillborn fetuses there are every year?? A hell of a LOT. Those are the ones you CAN save. Why are you even on some hole in the wall message board (ok so its a pretty cool one, but still) trying to prevent something from happening to late term fetuses (abortion on demand in the late term) that is as yet unlikely to ever happen in the first place?? Why not put that energy into the fetuses that you subjectively claim are people, by trying to educate pregnant mothers on how to sleep, how to eat right, quitting smoking, etc?? Oh I know why- Could it be because that would not allow you to be assholes, because nobody in their right fucking mind would listen to all your abusive verbage? Gee!

 

[Anguille]

Looks like this poll reflects what most Americans want. Women's right to choose abortion.

 

[Anguille]

Freedom of choice is the American way.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wow, the last ten pages are the same damn shit over again. JD – you life support argument failed ten pages ago to viability questions as did the breathing without a single shred of evidence to support it. I HAVE posted support for fetal brain development and all that you have done is misquote and misrepresent what the journals have stated. All the links you have posted are off the topic and have nothing to do with your actual stance. It strikes me as funny that you were against abortion up until the point that YOU NEEDED ONE! THAT IS A CLASSIC EMOTIONAL RESPONSE and speaks to the true intent of that stance. CONVENIENCE. That is the issue we are all taking with abortion on demand. I know people who have used abortion as a means of birth control and that is abhorrent. You will stand on your right to end another life for the simple fact that it may give you stretch marks!

JD
You have me all wrong. I am not pro death. I realize that you are anti abortion to the point of coercing your own (hypothetically) raped 13 year old daughter into having to deal with 9 months of gestation and painful childbirth, all because you think that a 13 year old is going to somehow experience all kinds of happiness by her screaming brat whose eyes would remind her of her attacker on a daily basis, and probably haunt her until the day that she dies.. But hey if that is what you call "pro life", then that is all you. I say let her decide for herself, without needing your permission. Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again, by FORCING them to give the rapist the winning ticket, and go through with an entire pregnancy, after which time, she will be on welfare, and have to explain to VARIOUS men and women and her little teenage friends where her kid's daddy is.. Fucking BITCH. You are goddamned lucky I am not your daughter. That is called POWER AND CONTROL, and even your teenaged daughter should not be subjected to it, BY YOU. How DARE you try to expect everyone to live up to some bullshit right to life standard that you have subjectively set for a fetus, with NO concern for the actual PERSON involved, as well??? I'm tellin ya.. if I was your kid, you would have a VERY different story to tell.

AND YOU ACCUSE OTHERS OF TWISTING YOUR WORDS. Bern, pro and myself NEVER stated anything of the sort of this. As a matter of fact this was SPECIFICALLY addressed and the outcome is the opposite of your wild accusations. The interesting part is here though….

Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again

Talk about fucking vain. Is that how you really see this world? Then I can see how you support such a failing position.

Oh my God. Did she really say that? That's just . . . pathetic. I'm 41, married, with GRANDCHILDREN, for God's sake, and I still get hit on by men younger than my oldest child. My sister had four children and was my age when she married her husband.

Like I said before, it's all about the quality of the woman in question. JD needs to worry less about her figure and more about her character.

 

[Bern80]

A chairperson and a fetus being one and the same, even in concept, is ludicris!! That was the dictionary's example, to give you a better idea of the concept of what being a person means.
I have done nothing with the dictionary definiton, besides make fun of you guys for grasping at straws, POSTING a definition which includes "chairperson", "salesperson", etc.. and yet not understanding that while all salespersons and chairpersons are people, not "ONE chairperson, or salesperson, or spokesperson is a fetus. I have asked you to prove me wrong on this, but you cannot, because these facts are just empirical. You can't BEND the truth, when the truth is that my empirical facts outweigh any arguments for potential that your bleeding fucking hearts tell you to fight for.

It is not empircal that a fetus is not, at some point, a person. You admitted as such. Emprical data comes from science. You admitted (finally) that none of the medical research you posted mentions anything about personhood. STILL all you have is your claim that the first breath is what constitutes personhood. For which you have not provided a shred of evidence, hell you haven't even defined what personhood is. While you were focsuing on chairpeople, salespeople and fetspeople, you conveniantly looked over the first portion of that definition, which is simply HUMAN. Which you agreed a fetus was.

And paying someone to insert a vacuum into my uterus for a good thorough cleaning is my means of legally "relinquishing guardianship" of it, even if YOU don't think that my life needs merit such an action. Tough.

Stop trying to be obtuse. From a legal sense there is no such thing as gaurdianship prior to birth. There is after.

Nobody is biologically responsible for another's survival. That is empirical, and the rest of your response to this is entirely ridiculous, because yes you are arguing semantics, and NO this is not about sociologoical responsibility, the emotional attachment that you are placing on pregnancies. When you are not the person who is pregnant, then regardless of your feelings about the contents of the uterus, which is empirically the contents of the woman, it is then HER medical decision to make, not yours, because it is not YOU who has to actually BE pregnant.

You seem to be using this term in the sense that a fetus is dependent on what the mother does to herself up until birth. You are making that distinction because you believe there to be no concept of bilogical responsibility post birth. You seem to believe that is when bilogical responsbility ends. Not true. It ends when your legal gaurdianship ends. What you do to your body even after the baby is born can most definately have an effect on the baby. A parent can be charged with child neglect if that parent is smoking crack for example. You can't do whatever you want to yourself without repurcussion if you're still the legal gaurdian. Therefore the point still stands.

You people won't even flinch if a fetus is stillborn.. And do you know how many stillborn fetuses there are every year?? A hell of a LOT. Those are the ones you CAN save. Why are you even on some hole in the wall message board (ok so its a pretty cool one, but still) trying to prevent something from happening to late term fetuses (abortion on demand in the late term) that is as yet unlikely to ever happen in the first place?? Why not put that energy into the fetuses that you subjectively claim are people, by trying to educate pregnant mothers on how to sleep, how to eat right, quitting smoking, etc?? Oh I know why-

Why would I flinch at that? You are trying to say dead is dead. Well it isn't. HOW it happened is just as important as that it happened.

Could it be because that would not allow you to be assholes, because nobody in their right fucking mind would listen to all your abusive verbage? Gee!

Does your hypocrisy never end? I would say I've remained largely civil throughout the course of this debate. You have taken the cake in this thread as far as abusive verbage goes. You might want to go back and take a gander at how many times you've called me an asshole or a moron or some other equally baseless name compared to what I have called you. I have called you one thing and one thing only. Generally I wouldn't even bother pointing it out because it's immature, distracting from anything relevant, and adds nothing to the conversation. But to have the nerve to accuse me of it when it's not true especially when the accuser is the main offender, takes some real balls or a level of obliviousnes I had up to this point not encountered.

 

[FA_Q2]

LMAO!! You people fucking SUPPORT abortion on demand for convenience reasons for the first trimester, so whatever REASONS you want to play off as inconsequential at THIIS point, is just a whole mess of rhetoric. Furthermore, I never said that I personally would choose to have an abortion for avoiding stretch marks, so your claim that I would do this is out in left field, at best.

You have not been at all active in the conversation, either, so whatever bullshit you want to try to pull here about my medical journal articles being unrelated to be "breathing makes it a person" stance, is obviously a shot in the fucking dark, as well, clearly made by a blind man who did nothing more than skim through the 35 past pages, at best.

Yes you did say that you support the right to abort for any reason at any time, which includes your right to it. I never said you would actually do it. Although I am not so sure that you would not based on the rest of your arguments.

And yes I have been active. Just because I have not responded to the last two days of drivel does not mean I have not been following it - it is my thread after all.

You ignorant bastard..

And you accuse others of personal attacks… I wonder why you are attacked! If that was a plant from another thread then simply post it instead of thinking that we are all the great mind readers that you seem to think.

Does your hypocrisy never end? I would say I've remained largely civil throughout the course of this debate. You have taken the cake in this thread as far as abusive verbage goes. You might want to go back and take a gander at how many times you've called me an asshole or a moron or some other equally baseless name compared to what I have called you. I have called you one thing and one thing only. Generally I wouldn't even bother pointing it out because it's immature, distracting from anything relevant, and adds nothing to the conversation. But to have the nerve to accuse me of it when it's not true especially when the accuser is the main offender, takes some real balls or a level of obliviousnes I had up to this point not encountered.

Don’t worry bern, she just does not want you to feel left out as she has personally attacked everyone in almost every paragraph that has been typed here.

 

[AllieBaba]

Abortion is a done deal right now. There is no way we are going back to the hodgepodge of the 60s. The best thing is to reduce the need for abortion through education, birth control, free prenatal care, adoption services and low cost child care

WE HAVE THAT STUFF ALREADY AND HAVE FOR YEARS!!! WHEN WILL WE SEE A REDUCTION IN CHILD EXPLOITATION, MURDER, AND ABORTION, AS PROMISED TO US?

You guys just ignore the facts, it makes me physically ill.

You said that if we increased sex ed, it would reduce abortion, illness, stds, child rape, murder, etc. blah blah blah. So we did.

Guess what? None of those things have been reduced! Except possibly the stds if you want to take all-time highs in the 20s. However, kids in those days didn't have STDs. Kids do now, and the rate is rising exponentially.

You said that if we provided education to children and women, free family health clinics, free abortions or low-cost abortions, if we HELPED single women with children so they could pursue their drug habits and slutty ways with income and medical care, rather than taking their fucking children from them and treating them like pariahs for being crappy mothers, you said if we did all that stuff, child abuse would drop dramatically! Mothers would no longer feel burdened by their children and all would be sweetness and light! Because we all know that poor, stupid women will choose to kill their babies in the womb rather than get knocked up and then drag them down into poverty and disease with them. So let's ENCOURAGE them to pursue unhealthy lifestyles! Now that we've got the fix, everyone will be happy!

You were wrong. Abortion never has and never will fix anything. It's a colossal failure. COLOSSAL.

 

[JD_2B]

Wow, the last ten pages are the same damn shit over again. JD – you life support argument failed ten pages ago to viability questions as did the breathing without a single shred of evidence to support it. I HAVE posted support for fetal brain development and all that you have done is misquote and misrepresent what the journals have stated. All the links you have posted are off the topic and have nothing to do with your actual stance. It strikes me as funny that you were against abortion up until the point that YOU NEEDED ONE! THAT IS A CLASSIC EMOTIONAL RESPONSE and speaks to the true intent of that stance. CONVENIENCE. That is the issue we are all taking with abortion on demand. I know people who have used abortion as a means of birth control and that is abhorrent. You will stand on your right to end another life for the simple fact that it may give you stretch marks!

JD
You have me all wrong. I am not pro death. I realize that you are anti abortion to the point of coercing your own (hypothetically) raped 13 year old daughter into having to deal with 9 months of gestation and painful childbirth, all because you think that a 13 year old is going to somehow experience all kinds of happiness by her screaming brat whose eyes would remind her of her attacker on a daily basis, and probably haunt her until the day that she dies.. But hey if that is what you call "pro life", then that is all you. I say let her decide for herself, without needing your permission. Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again, by FORCING them to give the rapist the winning ticket, and go through with an entire pregnancy, after which time, she will be on welfare, and have to explain to VARIOUS men and women and her little teenage friends where her kid's daddy is.. Fucking BITCH. You are goddamned lucky I am not your daughter. That is called POWER AND CONTROL, and even your teenaged daughter should not be subjected to it, BY YOU. How DARE you try to expect everyone to live up to some bullshit right to life standard that you have subjectively set for a fetus, with NO concern for the actual PERSON involved, as well??? I'm tellin ya.. if I was your kid, you would have a VERY different story to tell.

AND YOU ACCUSE OTHERS OF TWISTING YOUR WORDS. Bern, pro and myself NEVER stated anything of the sort of this. As a matter of fact this was SPECIFICALLY addressed and the outcome is the opposite of your wild accusations. The interesting part is here though….

Victims have rights to AT LEAST not be raped for 18 years, or even nine months, or have their figures wrecked, damaging their chances of ever finding a man that would care about them again

Talk about fucking vain. Is that how you really see this world? Then I can see how you support such a failing position.

Oh my God. Did she really say that? That's just . . . pathetic. I'm 41, married, with GRANDCHILDREN, for God's sake, and I still get hit on by men younger than my oldest child. My sister had four children and was my age when she married her husband.

Like I said before, it's all about the quality of the woman in question. JD needs to worry less about her figure and more about her character.

I don't understand where MY figure comes into play here, considering my abortion was not decided for the reason to maintain it.

Again, the fact that you would make your little girl birth a baby, go through all those hours of childbirth pains, and have to spend her formidable years raising a child, and explaining to everyone where dad is, which would absolutely happen, because she would be asked or judged as a whore, either fucking way.. and make her stare into the lookalike eyes of her rapists child every day.. AND take care of it, all to spare your fucking emotional fragility???? Or the wrath of you will follow????
Sorry hon, but nobody is that generous!!!! Good grief!!!