What should abortion laws be?

[Cecilie1200]

That makes sense, Fa_Q2.. Also, it would be impossible to determine how many ER deaths or mortality rates were abortion related in countries where abortion is illegal, however I would venture a guess that they are far higher than what we see here in the US, where it is legal, and as safe as is humanly possible. Also, the women presented by the American Medical Association who came in from post abortion complications did not necessarily die. I am sure that the abortion itself is highly under reported, because people do not want to have less than adequate care caused by a bias (if even a subconscious one) of the caregiver. With this consideration in mind, it also would probably make only a slight difference in quality of care, if everyone did report a recent abortion.

And none of THAT is your own bias and deep-seated guilt projected large upon the world around you. Goodness, no.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Furthermore, the reason for this US only statistic being so low, is because it is not adjusted as a worldwide figure, for the average number of maternal deaths due to childbirth.
If there was a catastrophic worldwide event, we would probably have to revert to a number closer to around 1000-2000 deaths per 100,000, equaling out to one to two deaths per hundred. Considering that I know my blood being left out for a couple of weeks will make me enough penicillin to combat any potential infections from an amateur abortion, or extraction of a severely injured fetus (say dead fetus, fuck it) then my abortion death rate would possibly be lower than that number. If eventually, we found the technique to make penicillin in bulk yet again, then it would only go back to a lower mortality rate for some, "some" being a matter of who has access to that penicillin, which is commonly used in life threatening complications. The complications tend to be infection rather than injury.

Anyways.. We are way off track here, but it was fun debating with y'all, more or less. Thanks for the banter.. =)

"Off-track" in the sense that that made no coherent, linear sense whatsoever.

 

[JD_2B]

That makes sense, Fa_Q2.. Also, it would be impossible to determine how many ER deaths or mortality rates were abortion related in countries where abortion is illegal, however I would venture a guess that they are far higher than what we see here in the US, where it is legal, and as safe as is humanly possible. Also, the women presented by the American Medical Association who came in from post abortion complications did not necessarily die. I am sure that the abortion itself is highly under reported, because people do not want to have less than adequate care caused by a bias (if even a subconscious one) of the caregiver. With this consideration in mind, it also would probably make only a slight difference in quality of care, if everyone did report a recent abortion.

And none of THAT is your own bias and deep-seated guilt projected large upon the world around you. Goodness, no.

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

 

[GHook93]

That makes sense, Fa_Q2.. Also, it would be impossible to determine how many ER deaths or mortality rates were abortion related in countries where abortion is illegal, however I would venture a guess that they are far higher than what we see here in the US, where it is legal, and as safe as is humanly possible. Also, the women presented by the American Medical Association who came in from post abortion complications did not necessarily die. I am sure that the abortion itself is highly under reported, because people do not want to have less than adequate care caused by a bias (if even a subconscious one) of the caregiver. With this consideration in mind, it also would probably make only a slight difference in quality of care, if everyone did report a recent abortion.

And none of THAT is your own bias and deep-seated guilt projected large upon the world around you. Goodness, no.

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

I agree I always find the arguments weak when someone insists on a teenager having a baby. If she decides to that should be her decision with (or even without) consultation with her family.

Abortion is not about the good vs the bad. Rather its about the less of 2 evils. Abortion of a teenage fetus in 95% of the cases is by far the less of the 2 evils.

 

[Bern80]

And none of THAT is your own bias and deep-seated guilt projected large upon the world around you. Goodness, no.

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

I agree I always find the arguments weak when someone insists on a teenager having a baby. If she decides to that should be her decision with (or even without) consultation with her family.

Abortion is not about the good vs the bad. Rather its about the less of 2 evils. Abortion of a teenage fetus in 95% of the cases is by far the less of the 2 evils.

Actually it is JD as usual attributing postions to people they don't have. Pretending that those of us who would like limitations to certain types of abortions are some sort of pregnant teenager hating monsters is a strawman (another concept JD needs to lookup considering the amount of times she has accused people of it), as is the notion that those of us with said position demand that all pregnant teens carry their pregnancies to term is pretty dishonest. The teenage brain is not developed enough for a teen to effectively grasp the consequences of what they do. Pretty hard to hold some deep seeded contempt for pregnant teens over that.

All that I anyway have ever contended is that the best decision be made for ALL parties involved. If done within a reasonable amount of time, that most certainly could include getting an abortion.

 

[GHook93]

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

I agree I always find the arguments weak when someone insists on a teenager having a baby. If she decides to that should be her decision with (or even without) consultation with her family.

Abortion is not about the good vs the bad. Rather its about the less of 2 evils. Abortion of a teenage fetus in 95% of the cases is by far the less of the 2 evils.

Actually it is JD as usual attributing postions to people they don't have. Pretending that those of us who would like limitations to certain types of abortions are some sort of pregnant teenager hating monsters is a strawman (another concept JD needs to lookup considering the amount of times she has accused people of it), as is the notion that those of us with said position demand that all pregnant teens carry their pregnancies to term is pretty dishonest. The teenage brain is not developed enough for a teen to effectively grasp the consequences of what they do. Pretty hard to hold some deep seeded contempt for pregnant teens over that.

All that I anyway have ever contended is that the best decision be made for ALL parties involved. If done within a reasonable amount of time, that most certainly could include getting an abortion.

You still have to account for a teen's lack of full maturity and inability to provide for a family.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That makes sense, Fa_Q2.. Also, it would be impossible to determine how many ER deaths or mortality rates were abortion related in countries where abortion is illegal, however I would venture a guess that they are far higher than what we see here in the US, where it is legal, and as safe as is humanly possible. Also, the women presented by the American Medical Association who came in from post abortion complications did not necessarily die. I am sure that the abortion itself is highly under reported, because people do not want to have less than adequate care caused by a bias (if even a subconscious one) of the caregiver. With this consideration in mind, it also would probably make only a slight difference in quality of care, if everyone did report a recent abortion.

And none of THAT is your own bias and deep-seated guilt projected large upon the world around you. Goodness, no.

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Um, no, I don't tell women they're worthless whores for getting pregnant, particularly not if they take responsibility for their actions. However, if they selfishly kill an innocent baby for their own convenience and then have the utter, narcissistic gall to sit around telling me how proud they are of believing that they are the only person who matters, then I definitely tell them that they are worthless whores, because they are. And if you can't handle that, too freaking bad. I'll take my non-baby-killing bitchiness over your "I need the freedom to fuck any drunk loser I pick up in a bar" bitchiness any day of the week, especially if we're talking about setting an example for teenagers. If nothing else, I don't have to turn an Internet message board into my own personal group therapy session in order to justify my past to myself.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself . . . because I'll be happy to do it for you. It's nice to know you can finally admit your role in the world, though.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I agree I always find the arguments weak when someone insists on a teenager having a baby. If she decides to that should be her decision with (or even without) consultation with her family.

Abortion is not about the good vs the bad. Rather its about the less of 2 evils. Abortion of a teenage fetus in 95% of the cases is by far the less of the 2 evils.

Actually it is JD as usual attributing postions to people they don't have. Pretending that those of us who would like limitations to certain types of abortions are some sort of pregnant teenager hating monsters is a strawman (another concept JD needs to lookup considering the amount of times she has accused people of it), as is the notion that those of us with said position demand that all pregnant teens carry their pregnancies to term is pretty dishonest. The teenage brain is not developed enough for a teen to effectively grasp the consequences of what they do. Pretty hard to hold some deep seeded contempt for pregnant teens over that.

All that I anyway have ever contended is that the best decision be made for ALL parties involved. If done within a reasonable amount of time, that most certainly could include getting an abortion.

You still have to account for a teen's lack of full maturity and inability to provide for a family.

I'm sure that there are many adopted children in the world who would be surprised by your opinion that death is preferable to adoption.

 

[GHook93]

Actually it is JD as usual attributing postions to people they don't have. Pretending that those of us who would like limitations to certain types of abortions are some sort of pregnant teenager hating monsters is a strawman (another concept JD needs to lookup considering the amount of times she has accused people of it), as is the notion that those of us with said position demand that all pregnant teens carry their pregnancies to term is pretty dishonest. The teenage brain is not developed enough for a teen to effectively grasp the consequences of what they do. Pretty hard to hold some deep seeded contempt for pregnant teens over that.

All that I anyway have ever contended is that the best decision be made for ALL parties involved. If done within a reasonable amount of time, that most certainly could include getting an abortion.

You still have to account for a teen's lack of full maturity and inability to provide for a family.

I'm sure that there are many adopted children in the world who would be surprised by your opinion that death is preferable to adoption.

That might be true, but an aborted fetus in the 1st term wouldn't know any better now would it? I am sure every sperm and egg would like to be a real person, but sometimes that is just life.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You still have to account for a teen's lack of full maturity and inability to provide for a family.

I'm sure that there are many adopted children in the world who would be surprised by your opinion that death is preferable to adoption.

That might be true, but an aborted fetus in the 1st term wouldn't know any better now would it? I am sure every sperm and egg would like to be a real person, but sometimes that is just life.

Sperm and eggs don't "like" anything, because they aren't organisms, and are incapable of thought or emotion. Biology 101.

I find your attitude of "killing someone is okay, because once they're dead, they don't know the difference" to be intriguing, to say the least. However, in the context of putatively responding to my post, it's irrelevant and non-responsive. You appear to feel that death is better than adoption. I pointed out that real, living people who were adopted would be very surprised by that opinion. I didn't say anything about what fetuses, aborted or not, might think.

The more you dodge and run down tangents, the more guilty you're going to appear. I don't care, but you might.

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually, the attitude is "if they can't speak up for themselves, we don't give a rat's ass what they think about it."

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually, the attitude is "if they can't speak up for themselves, we don't give a rat's ass what they think about it."

Most likely.

 

[JD_2B]

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

I agree I always find the arguments weak when someone insists on a teenager having a baby. If she decides to that should be her decision with (or even without) consultation with her family.

Abortion is not about the good vs the bad. Rather its about the less of 2 evils. Abortion of a teenage fetus in 95% of the cases is by far the less of the 2 evils.

Actually it is JD as usual attributing postions to people they don't have. Pretending that those of us who would like limitations to certain types of abortions are some sort of pregnant teenager hating monsters is a strawman (another concept JD needs to lookup considering the amount of times she has accused people of it), as is the notion that those of us with said position demand that all pregnant teens carry their pregnancies to term is pretty dishonest. The teenage brain is not developed enough for a teen to effectively grasp the consequences of what they do. Pretty hard to hold some deep seeded contempt for pregnant teens over that.

All that I anyway have ever contended is that the best decision be made for ALL parties involved. If done within a reasonable amount of time, that most certainly could include getting an abortion.

Oh, for God's sake, Cecile was the one who was whining about the teenage pregnancy rates, the murder rates, blah blah blah, as if anything she says has any semblance of truth TO it, anyways. I was talking to her, not you. But hey, go ahead and jump on the suicidal bandwagon of tossing ridiculous insults my way for no reason again- What do I care?? LOL!!

 

[JD_2B]

And none of THAT is your own bias and deep-seated guilt projected large upon the world around you. Goodness, no.

You are projecting, Cecile.

A pregnant teen is in a lose lose situation, with bitches like you. If she so much as gewts pregnant, you will be a **** and tell her she is a whore, and worthless, etc. If she takes responsibility for her actions and aborts, you will be an even bigger **** and call her worse names.

Um, no, I don't tell women they're worthless whores for getting pregnant, particularly not if they take responsibility for their actions. However, if they selfishly kill an innocent baby for their own convenience and then have the utter, narcissistic gall to sit around telling me how proud they are of believing that they are the only person who matters, then I definitely tell them that they are worthless whores, because they are. And if you can't handle that, too freaking bad. I'll take my non-baby-killing bitchiness over your "I need the freedom to fuck any drunk loser I pick up in a bar" bitchiness any day of the week, especially if we're talking about setting an example for teenagers. If nothing else, I don't have to turn an Internet message board into my own personal group therapy session in order to justify my past to myself.

You stupid little dimbulb, You have said in other forums on here (in not so many words, but as a whole) that you would go to such lengths as to hurt your own children, if they chose to take the responsibility for the condition they had imposed on them and aborted. You clearly think that having an abortion is irresponsible, and that anyone who chooses to abort must be a whore who fucked some drunk loser or a whole plethora of them to get that way. It is, in your retarded little pea brain, entirely impossible for someone to be IN A RELATIONSHIP and have sex, and get pregnant and SIMPLY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT READY FOR KIDS, YOU SHRIVELED UP OLD CUNTWRINKLE.

IF I gave a shit what some psychotic person like yourself thought of MY abortion, why the fuck would I put MY picture on the board, for you to be forced to SHOW your regal cuntliness by saying all of these preposterous things to me while looking me directly in the eyes. You are one sick bitch, that's for sure.

Bottom line- A **** is a fucking ****.. LOL!!!

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself . . . because I'll be happy to do it for you. It's nice to know you can finally admit your role in the world, though.

Justify your own desires to hurt your children over your own pathological desires to kill all who dare to disagree with you, you fucking ****. Again, I do not care, lol

 

[JD_2B]

Actually, the attitude is "if they can't speak up for themselves, we don't give a rat's ass what they think about it."

Prove that they can think... Guess what? They CANT. And the only websites or "studies" on this shit that you people will ever find are on religion and pro life sites that are designed to feed false propaganda to people like you.

Science has come so far as to prove that fetuses do not need anesthesia, as they do not feel pain, and this is PROVEN. There is NO reason to believe that they can THINK.

 

[Bern80]

Prove that they can think... Guess what? They CANT. And the only websites or "studies" on this shit that you people will ever find are on religion and pro life sites that are designed to feed false propaganda to people like you.

Science has come so far as to prove that fetuses do not need anesthesia, as they do not feel pain, and this is PROVEN. There is NO reason to believe that they can THINK.

You're still dancing around your argument. If science has come so far as you say it has it should not be difficult for you tell us what happens biologically when the child takes it's first breath that transforms it from a fetus to a person in an instant.

 

[Bern80]

I agree I always find the arguments weak when someone insists on a teenager having a baby. If she decides to that should be her decision with (or even without) consultation with her family.

Abortion is not about the good vs the bad. Rather its about the less of 2 evils. Abortion of a teenage fetus in 95% of the cases is by far the less of the 2 evils.

Actually it is JD as usual attributing postions to people they don't have. Pretending that those of us who would like limitations to certain types of abortions are some sort of pregnant teenager hating monsters is a strawman (another concept JD needs to lookup considering the amount of times she has accused people of it), as is the notion that those of us with said position demand that all pregnant teens carry their pregnancies to term is pretty dishonest. The teenage brain is not developed enough for a teen to effectively grasp the consequences of what they do. Pretty hard to hold some deep seeded contempt for pregnant teens over that.

All that I anyway have ever contended is that the best decision be made for ALL parties involved. If done within a reasonable amount of time, that most certainly could include getting an abortion.

Oh, for God's sake, Cecile was the one who was whining about the teenage pregnancy rates, the murder rates, blah blah blah, as if anything she says has any semblance of truth TO it, anyways. I was talking to her, not you. But hey, go ahead and jump on the suicidal bandwagon of tossing ridiculous insults my way for no reason again- What do I care?? LOL!!

I told you the truth hurts more than anything. The FACT is you consistantly use terms incorrectly and make up definitions for them as you go along. By any objective observation you are a hypocrite. You have accussed me and others of straw man arguments several times, with out actually showing where or how I intentionally misrepresented your opinion. Then have the balls to resort to making straw man arguments yourself.

 

[Yukon]

ABORTION is LEGAL. I have invested money in Henry Mogentaller Abortion Clinics of Canada and I have made thousands upon thousands of dollars.

ABORTION ON DEMAND is the right of every woman and every time unwanted, parasitic, fetal tissue is extracted from a womans body in Canada I make MONEY !

 

[Bern80]

ABORTION is LEGAL. I have invested money in Henry Mogentaller Abortion Clinics of Canada and I have made thousands upon thousands of dollars.

ABORTION ON DEMAND is the right of every woman and every time unwanted, parasitic, fetal tissue is extracted from a womans body in Canada I make MONEY !

The above along with signature are only true if one considers there to be some major difference between a child moments before birth to moments after. So far no one has been able to provide anything compelling that this is so.

That being the case, while it may be legal, that doesn't make ir right. As i explained earlier, slavery was once legal too. Justifying something on the basis of whether it is legal or not is a pretty weak argument.

 

[JD_2B]

Prove that they can think... Guess what? They CANT. And the only websites or "studies" on this shit that you people will ever find are on religion and pro life sites that are designed to feed false propaganda to people like you.

Science has come so far as to prove that fetuses do not need anesthesia, as they do not feel pain, and this is PROVEN. There is NO reason to believe that they can THINK.

You're still dancing around your argument. If science has come so far as you say it has it should not be difficult for you tell us what happens biologically when the child takes it's first breath that transforms it from a fetus to a person in an instant.

Here's how it works.. I am about to give you a few examples of what I am saying, in hopes you will pick up the concept.

A restaurant is built. The ovens are on, the stoves are burning, the refrigerator is going, and yet, no food is being served, no patrons are dining, etc, etc.
Just because something CAN does not mean it DOES. There is a moment of magic when a business cuts the tape and lets in customers for the first time. Suddenly, it becomes ALIVE. Before this moment, it was merely a functional work in the making. Anything could have destroyed it from coming to that moment. In hurricane Katrina, don't you think that there might have been one company that was going to be ready to open its doors for the first time, to the public, and whoosh, all of that work and effort and diligence came to a screeching halt in a manner of hours.

There is nothing else that happens between the duration of time when the business is being built and formed and created, and the time it actually becomes ALIVE, by doing actual business, besides the act of opening the front doors and saying Welcome.

I cannot describe any better than this the difference between a fetus and a baby who takes a breath. All I can give you is this analogy, and hope that you can understand the concept that there is ALWAYS a solitary act of immense strength, generosity, and acceptance for something to truly become alive. It is divine and beautiful and not the kind of thing that can be attributed to a fetus, which can "die" because the woman was chopped in two or blown to bits by an accident with a fuel truck on the way to the hospital. If it was a baby, a person, it could be covered with something, or saved by something, some freaky weird occurance that many people chalk up to being a miracle, even if it's mother died.

Just because it has a brain, doesnt mean it thinks. Just because it has eyes, doesnt mean it sees. Just because it has ears, doesn't mean it hears. Just because it CAN be independent, doesn't mean it IS.

A fetus simply =/= a newborn, and the only thing separating the two is the one thing you cannot accept.. The breath.

Again, if you ever got pregnant and did not want to have an abortion- I would not sit here trying to talk you into it. Just because I believe this does not mean that you have to also. I simply ask that my beliefs are respected as well, and I really do not find that happening here on this forum.

Also, I am sick and damned tired of you "coming back" with some ridiculous "Oh you havent explained your case well enough." or some such thing. You Bern, have not listed a single medical journal to support your own claims, and all you have fucking done is try to SAY that based on your own personal and clearly subjective opinions, mine, and my medical journal research is "too difficult to understand" so you just brush it all off and constantly ask the same fucking questions over and fucking over, like a broken record. No, man- I am NOT going to spend the rest of MY life explaining and reexplaining this to you, just because you are to thick to fucking GET it. When you come back with something worth debating, and stop attacking my posts, probably out of a giddy trollish jolly you get from all of this, then I will talk again. Till then buzz off.