What will women gain from all this squawking about sex pests? A Niqab

[ptbw forever]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

There is almost never evidence. It’s always “he said/she said” and he is the guy who is respected and powerful and she is a nobody.

50 women came forward and accused Bill Cosby of drugging and raping them and he’s still a free man with a career.

On the other hand, one man accused Kevin Spacey of propositioning him when he was underage, and production of House of Cards is shut down and Spacey may never work again.

There is a huge double standard when men or boys are the victims of sexual abuse, and what happens when women make similar allegations.

It is called the gay lobbying organizations, moron.

Kevin was thrown out for making gay guys look bad.

 

[John Shaw]

A chaperone every time men and women are together. Even in business meetings.

Mrs. Pence?? Is that you??

How about men don’t make passes at co-workers?

A lot of people wouldn't have ended up together and a lot of people never would've been born if we all followed your advice.

 

[Dragonlady]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

So the question then becomes how do you prosecute rape given that rape is a crime committed in private, there are generally no witnesses and while there may be evidence of sex, no way of definitively proving consent?

Every survey done asking women about sexually assault, the numbers are frightening. One third of all rapes are never reported and the chances of convicting your rapist are slim. Women who do come forward say that the process of reporting the crime is just as dehumanizing and victimizing as the initial rape.

 

[John Shaw]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

So the question then becomes how do you prosecute rape given that rape is a crime committed in private, there are generally no witnesses and while there may be evidence of sex, no way of definitively proving consent?

Every survey done asking women about sexually assault, the numbers are frightening. One third of all rapes are never reported and the chances of convicting your rapist are slim. Women who do come forward say that the process of reporting the crime is just as dehumanizing and victimizing as the initial rape.

I guess that's too damn bad, isn't it? Unless you want to live in a world where everyone is guilty until proven innocent. In which case, I wonder what I could accuse you of ... I'm sure I could come up with something that couldn't be disproven.

 

[John Shaw]

It has truly become a witch hunt, which people on social media and in the news (mostly women) are applauding with a sort of sadistic glee.

There are cases where the exposure and punishment is well-deserved, like a Weinstein. There are lesser known cases where people are having their lives ruined for basically failing to be perfect, like making an indecent comment or trying to pick up a coworker at a cocktail party. That's not right at all. This environment just makes normal guys like me feel like we can't get close to female coworkers without risking our lives in the deal. Ultimately, everyone will lose. Especially the younger women who want to move up the corporate ladder, but can't because their male superiors refuse to be alone with them. Which is the policy I plan on having as I move up the ladder myself. It's not worth taking a chance on someone when as a result they can ruin you with an accusation alone.

 

[Dragonlady]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

So the question then becomes how do you prosecute rape given that rape is a crime committed in private, there are generally no witnesses and while there may be evidence of sex, no way of definitively proving consent?

Every survey done asking women about sexually assault, the numbers are frightening. One third of all rapes are never reported and the chances of convicting your rapist are slim. Women who do come forward say that the process of reporting the crime is just as dehumanizing and victimizing as the initial rape.

I guess that's too damn bad, isn't it? Unless you want to live in a world where everyone is guilty until proven innocent. In which case, I wonder what I could accuse you of ... I'm sure I could come up with something that couldn't be disproven.

“That’s too damn bad” is a wonderful answer. Is that what you’d tell your daughter if she was raped?

 

[John Shaw]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

So the question then becomes how do you prosecute rape given that rape is a crime committed in private, there are generally no witnesses and while there may be evidence of sex, no way of definitively proving consent?

Every survey done asking women about sexually assault, the numbers are frightening. One third of all rapes are never reported and the chances of convicting your rapist are slim. Women who do come forward say that the process of reporting the crime is just as dehumanizing and victimizing as the initial rape.

I guess that's too damn bad, isn't it? Unless you want to live in a world where everyone is guilty until proven innocent. In which case, I wonder what I could accuse you of ... I'm sure I could come up with something that couldn't be disproven.

“That’s too damn bad” is a wonderful answer. Is that what you’d tell your daughter if she was raped?

I don't have a daughter, and I doubt I ever will, since kids are a fucking pain in the ass. But nice attempt to make it personal and bring out an emotional response. Truth is, there are a few things you can do. You can A) have some fucking courage and prosecute, which is the route I most approve of, B) do nothing and say you just wanted to move on with your life, or C) murder the person who did that thing to you.

Even option C, I could understand, if not condone. But never will I understand or approve of a world where we just assume people are guilty because someone said they were. I know 2 people who would be in prison right now for rapes they 100% did not commit if that were the way.

 

[Dragonlady]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

So the question then becomes how do you prosecute rape given that rape is a crime committed in private, there are generally no witnesses and while there may be evidence of sex, no way of definitively proving consent?

Every survey done asking women about sexually assault, the numbers are frightening. One third of all rapes are never reported and the chances of convicting your rapist are slim. Women who do come forward say that the process of reporting the crime is just as dehumanizing and victimizing as the initial rape.

I guess that's too damn bad, isn't it? Unless you want to live in a world where everyone is guilty until proven innocent. In which case, I wonder what I could accuse you of ... I'm sure I could come up with something that couldn't be disproven.

“That’s too damn bad” is a wonderful answer. Is that what you’d tell your daughter if she was raped?

I don't have a daughter, and I doubt I ever will, since kids are a fucking pain in the ass. But nice attempt to make it personal and bring out an emotional response. Truth is, there are a few things you can do. You can A) have some fucking courage and prosecute, which is the route I most approve of, B) do nothing and say you just wanted to move on with your life, or C) murder the person who did that thing to you.

Even option C, I could understand, if not condone. But never will I understand or approve of a world where we just assume people are guilty because someone said they were. I know 2 people who would be in prison right now for rapes they 100% did not commit if that were the way.

Here’s the other side of that coin. You probably know at least 20 women who were raped and never reported it. Even when women report the rape, the chances of going to trial are slim and the chances of conviction even slimmer. Rape is the crime with the lowest conviction rate of all crimes.

I know a teacher who was falsely accused of sexually assaulting a student. It was a lie but his life was ruined by it before the boy recanted.

When my oldest daughter moved to Toronto in the mid 1990’s she was hanging out with the media types downtown. People who work in TV and radio, and the arts. One of the first things she was told by her friends was to never be alone with Jian Ghomeshi.

Jian Ghomeshi - Wikipedia

This guy is one of the pigs of the western world. And he wasn’t found guilty of a thing.

 

[John Shaw]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No one should be able to destroy peoples lives without being judged by their peers by the evidence.

So the question then becomes how do you prosecute rape given that rape is a crime committed in private, there are generally no witnesses and while there may be evidence of sex, no way of definitively proving consent?

Every survey done asking women about sexually assault, the numbers are frightening. One third of all rapes are never reported and the chances of convicting your rapist are slim. Women who do come forward say that the process of reporting the crime is just as dehumanizing and victimizing as the initial rape.

I guess that's too damn bad, isn't it? Unless you want to live in a world where everyone is guilty until proven innocent. In which case, I wonder what I could accuse you of ... I'm sure I could come up with something that couldn't be disproven.

“That’s too damn bad” is a wonderful answer. Is that what you’d tell your daughter if she was raped?

I don't have a daughter, and I doubt I ever will, since kids are a fucking pain in the ass. But nice attempt to make it personal and bring out an emotional response. Truth is, there are a few things you can do. You can A) have some fucking courage and prosecute, which is the route I most approve of, B) do nothing and say you just wanted to move on with your life, or C) murder the person who did that thing to you.

Even option C, I could understand, if not condone. But never will I understand or approve of a world where we just assume people are guilty because someone said they were. I know 2 people who would be in prison right now for rapes they 100% did not commit if that were the way.

Here’s the other side of that coin. You probably know at least 20 women who were raped and never reported it. Even when women report the rape, the chances of going to trial are slim and the chances of conviction even slimmer. Rape is the crime with the lowest conviction rate of all crimes.

I know a teacher who was falsely accused of sexually assaulting a student. It was a lie but his life was ruined by it before the boy recanted.

When my oldest daughter moved to Toronto in the mid 1990’s she was hanging out with the media types downtown. People who work in TV and radio, and the arts. One of the first things she was told by her friends was to never be alone with Jian Ghomeshi.

Jian Ghomeshi - Wikipedia

This guy is one of the pigs of the western world. And he wasn’t found guilty of a thing.

Rape is hard to prosecute because the evidence left behind erodes extremely quickly, if any is left at all. Rape victims constantly make basic mistakes that render it impossible for the police to do their jobs. Is that blaming the victim? No; it's just a fact. Waiting three weeks to go to the authorities, after you've showered multiple times and erased every last scrap of evidence, is not going to yield justice.

It's not like I have no sympathy for rape victims. In fact, I'd say it's the crime I find most disgusting, outside of maybe extended torture or some barbaric ritual murder. That doesn't mean we throw our way of life to the wolves and succumb to a Salem mob mentality. Improve the process. Improve the science. Give people more opportunities to deal with their trauma. Demonizing males and trying to make sure the workplace is as pure and chaste as a newborn lamb at all times is not only counter-intuitive, it is immoral and unnatural.

The other thing we could do is start actually paying attention to the problems men and boys have, particularly boys and their disturbingly poor performance in school. Men find it a bit exasperating to always be expected to work as partners with women on all their concerns, while our troubles are ignored or even ridiculed. Cooperation from men on women's issues would probably see a dramatic rise in intensity and urgency if women ever gave anything in return.

 

[Slyhunter]

I seem to remember a movie theater and my attempts to grope a breast.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

A good friend of mine was raped. We were at a bar listening to the band. I don't drink but she had a couple and started flirting with the bartender. I did not think anything if it when she went to the bathroom. When she came back she giggled and said "I just gave the bartender a bj".

"You did what! Are you crazy. He could have 5 different diseases."

To which she cried "I've been RAPED! Call the police. " I dragged her out before there was any more trouble.

If I had a daughter who waited 30 years to claim rape I would just tell her "that's not rape, honey, that's a change of mind 30 years after the fact.

 

[Shrimpbox]

Many of these replies point to a lot of truth

In New York, Harvey has been accused of raping this girl twice. I agree with the earlier poster who said if you were raped once, why would you get within a hundred miles of this pig again if you were raped. These kind of women I tend to discount. Earlier today I was told that Ashley Judd had sex with Harvey to keep from being raped. Please explain that one to me.

Forceful and abusive rape is intolerable,but is that what really happened with the Harvey girls? It seems many of these women could have just walked, but they made a calculated decision that a career was worth the personal tragedy. I am not justifying his behavior but what did these women do to protect their sisters or out the pig. This Johnny come lately stuff just rings hollow. My wife tells the story of having a job she liked before we met where her boss would just not leave her alone, she didn’t want to quit but she was left with no choice in her mind, and this was at a time when she was divorced with three young children. This was a woman with the courage of her convictions at a time when women were second class citizens. While many men’s behavior hasn’t changed, times certainly have for women. As with race, men seem precluded from commenting on rape in any way so I will leave it at that.

Does this environment continue the pattern of male emasculation, absolutely. If it was hard to navigate social interactions before it is even more impossible now, especially for young males. It seems the only role models are pigs or pansies, male or female. I am glad I am not a teenager today(although I would love to be thirty again).

I think winterborn has given some sage advice and insight. I would just add this. The pleasure derived from a woman that wants to be with you is so much greater than from a woman who doesn’t want to be with you, why would you force the issue. A gentleman never does.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Wandering hands need to stay where they belong. End of story. Confused?

I am a bit confused. I go out fairly often and find women to be incredibly frisky in the clubs. Why is that okay if it's not for me? And why did admiring the opposite sex and making advancements based on such become bad?
I get that there are appropriate lines in public or at work that should not be crossed but we are taking this shit too far.
I have seriously freaked out about going to far with a new girlfriend out of fear that I haven't noticed the insane part yet that may turn a consensual interaction into a he said she said incident.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

A woman who claims she was raped goes out with the same guy again and even again, was never raped in the first place.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Wandering hands need to stay where they belong. End of story. Confused?

I am a bit confused. I go out fairly often and find women to be incredibly frisky in the clubs. Why is that okay if it's not for me? And why did admiring the opposite sex and making advancements based on such become bad?
I get that there are appropriate lines in public or at work that should not be crossed but we are taking this shit too far.
I have seriously freaked out about going to far with a new girlfriend out of fear that I haven't noticed the insane part yet that may turn a consensual interaction into a he said she said incident.

Written consent.

Students Told to Take Photos With a 'Consent Contract’ Before They Have Sex

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Wandering hands need to stay where they belong. End of story. Confused?

I am a bit confused. I go out fairly often and find women to be incredibly frisky in the clubs. Why is that okay if it's not for me? And why did admiring the opposite sex and making advancements based on such become bad?
I get that there are appropriate lines in public or at work that should not be crossed but we are taking this shit too far.
I have seriously freaked out about going to far with a new girlfriend out of fear that I haven't noticed the insane part yet that may turn a consensual interaction into a he said she said incident.

Written consent.

Students Told to Take Photos With a 'Consent Contract’ Before They Have Sex

That's absurd.

Nothing says "I trust you" to a new girlfriend like sign here babe....

 

[Dragonlady]

But men like Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi, the lawyer and the stock broker I wrote about up thread all have one thing in common: they were all superstars in their work. Weinstein could get your film made and win you an Oscar. Ghomeshi was a big star at the CBC. The lawyer was one of the highest billing lawyers at a large Bay Street law firm with office around the world, the stock broker who raped the secretary was responsible for more revenue than the rest of the firm’s brokers combined. So people covered up for them. And they let them get away with it.

The CBC denied they knew anything about Ghomeshi’s behaviours even as the staff on his show were having meetings about their “toxic work environment” and bringing in consultants to deal with the problems he created.

People who worked at Miramax knew what Weinstein was doing but he was making millions of dollars for them so it was tolerated. Ronan Farrow tried to write an exposee on Weinstein and got shut down.

Trump was right. When you’re a star, you can get away with it.

 

[Slyhunter]

But men like Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi, the lawyer and the stock broker I wrote about up thread all have one thing in common: they were all superstars in their work. Weinstein could get your film made and win you an Oscar. Ghomeshi was a big star at the CBC. The lawyer was one of the highest billing lawyers at a large Bay Street law firm with office around the world, the stock broker who raped the secretary was responsible for more revenue than the rest of the firm’s brokers combined. So people covered up for them. And they let them get away with it.

The CBC denied they knew anything about Ghomeshi’s behaviours even as the staff on his show were having meetings about their “toxic work environment” and bringing in consultants to deal with the problems he created.

People who worked at Miramax knew what Weinstein was doing but he was making millions of dollars for them so it was tolerated. Ronan Farrow tried to write an exposee on Weinstein and got shut down.

Trump was right. When you’re a star, you can get away with it.

The stuff I used to get away with in Germany simply because I was in the US Army.
Doesn't make it right.

 

[bripat9643]

Wandering hands need to stay where they belong. End of story. Confused?

I am a bit confused. I go out fairly often and find women to be incredibly frisky in the clubs. Why is that okay if it's not for me? And why did admiring the opposite sex and making advancements based on such become bad?
I get that there are appropriate lines in public or at work that should not be crossed but we are taking this shit too far.
I have seriously freaked out about going to far with a new girlfriend out of fear that I haven't noticed the insane part yet that may turn a consensual interaction into a he said she said incident.

Written consent.

Students Told to Take Photos With a 'Consent Contract’ Before They Have Sex

Just wait until your next girlfriend finds that. I'm sure it will go over well.

 

[bripat9643]

Wandering hands need to stay where they belong. End of story. Confused?

ROFL! I bet you're a fun date.

Women are not talking about what men did on dates. But, even on a date, you don't get to grope and grab unless she wants it too.

No one said you did, but that doesn't mean your life should be destroyed 30 years later. Simply saying "no" should be sufficient. Women aren't made of glass.

And furthermore, women on dates don't say "it's OK for you to kiss me now." They expect you to take the initiative without being told. Only a virgin doesn't understand how that works. Women's expectations about how men are supposed to behave are utterly ridiculous.

Not "not made of glass" but do still expect males or females to keep their sexual sneak feels at a distance unless an invitation is expressly given to do so. It is extremely invasive to another person's personal space when another person feels you up uninvited regardless of what their reasoning is.

A lot of women expect you to make a move without them saying anything. The demand for explicit permission doesn't jib with the way women actually behave.