Zone1 When SCOTUS Rules Against Favoritism Based on Race, the Impact will Go Beyond College Admissions

[hadit]

No argument from me there. The best way to break down the last of the racist mentality is to stop focusing on it and encourage people to treat all people the same. To treat skin color as of no more importance than hair or eye color.

Laws and policies are in place now that do not discriminate against anybody and allow all to compete even if some have advantages others don't. Dividing people up into demographics, mandatory consideration of some demographics over others, forced diversity, telling some kids they are automatically oppressed, repressed, at fault, racist or victims of racism etc. just because they were born with a certain skin color is one of the most racist and destructive policies that can be done to people. And it is a huge detriment to their chances for success.

That some will have advantages others don't has ALWAYS been the case whether or not racial factors are present. The child from a loving home and who has had the advantage of lots of books and learning experiences and positive reinforcement, whether he/she is black, white, Hispanic or whatever, is going to have a leg up on the kid who didn't have any of that.

But as 3/4ths of the millionaires in this country came from homes that were poor or of very modest means shows us that poverty does not prevent great success. If there is motivation and determination and work ethic and confidence in oneself, it may take the poor kid longer, but he/she can get there. And that is what we need to be teaching our children.

And sometimes it takes multiple generations to see that success. How many immigrants in the last century got here with very little, started a business, worked at it 16 hours a day, and their family finally saw success two generations down the line?

 

[Lisa558]

And sometimes it takes multiple generations to see that success. How many immigrants in the last century got here with very little, started a business, worked at it 16 hours a day, and their family finally saw success two generations down the line?

….or the very next generation. Asians and Jews arrived here in the last century with very little, worked hard 16 hours a day, and their kids went to college and became professionals.

 

[Foxfyre]

And sometimes it takes multiple generations to see that success. How many immigrants in the last century got here with very little, started a business, worked at it 16 hours a day, and their family finally saw success two generations down the line?

True, but those immigrants put together a country in which now pretty much anybody who has work ethic and belief in himself/herself can know significant success in this lifetime. It makes me furious to see black children told they can't expect much out of life because 'whitey' keeps them down or he/she is specially entitled or the white child told they don't deserve success because of his/her 'white privilege' or that he/she is bad because of his/her skin color.

THAT is the cultural condition that needs to be broken down. Both children should be affirmed in who they are as Americans and the great possibilities they can enjoy and be encouraged to be the best they can be. If they are indoctrinated in anything, it should be in the knowledge that our present, no matter what that is, is no harbinger or guarantee of what will be. We all appreciate some necessary help and encouragement along the way, but what we achieve is our responsibility and nobody else's.

To make a white child these days responsible for slavery or segregation or racism is as stupid as making a Japanese child responsible for the sins of his/her country in the early 20th Century and for Pearl Harbor. And to convince a black child that he or she is already victimized and automatically entitled to reparations or anything else is tantamount to child abuse.

 

[IM2]

This thread is dedicated to the question of who is benefitting from lower expectations and requirements and if that is ultimately a good thing or not. If you want to make the case that black students should face lower requirements and expectations because 60 years ago their grandparents were not even allowed to enroll in school, go ahead, but expect pushback on it.

I do have to chuckle at your belief that you know what I'm thinking.

Whites have always benefitted from lower expectations and requirements. Only when laws were made to create equal opportunities did we start seeing whites associate minorities with lowered expectations. Until you can face this reality all you'll have is mealy -mouthed garbage that denies the past because that past is evidence of how whites were not concerned with standards and race was the only consideration.

 

[IM2]

No argument from me there. The best way to break down the last of the racist mentality is to stop focusing on it and encourage people to treat all people the same. To treat skin color as of no more importance than hair or eye color.

Laws and policies are in place now that do not discriminate against anybody and allow all to compete even if some have advantages others don't. Dividing people up into demographics, mandatory consideration of some demographics over others, forced diversity, telling some kids they are automatically oppressed, repressed, at fault, racist or victims of racism etc. just because they were born with a certain skin color is one of the most racist and destructive policies that can be done to people. And it is a huge detriment to their chances for success.

That some will have advantages others don't has ALWAYS been the case whether or not racial factors are present. The child from a loving home and who has had the advantage of lots of books and learning experiences and positive reinforcement, whether he/she is black, white, Hispanic or whatever, is going to have a leg up on the kid who didn't have any of that.

But as 3/4ths of the millionaires in this country came from homes that were poor or of very modest means shows us that poverty does not prevent great success. If there is motivation and determination and work ethic and confidence in oneself, it may take the poor kid longer, but he/she can get there. And that is what we need to be teaching our children.

You don't stop the racist mentality by ignoring it. Funny how it's primarily whites who think its that simple. The fact that advantages were mandated by law and the damage caused by such mandates exist today escapes a specific portion of the white community that excuses this with comments like:

"That some will have advantages others don't has ALWAYS been the case whether or not racial factors are present."

Sorry, but coming from a loving home with books in it, is not the solution.

We had a library in our house and we still faced racism from whites that denied us of things less qualified whites got.

 

[hadit]

Whites have always benefitted from lower expectations and requirements. Only when laws were made to create equal opportunities did we start seeing whites associate minorities with lowered expectations. Until you can face this reality all you'll have is mealy -mouthed garbage that denies the past because that past is evidence of how whites were not concerned with standards and race was the only consideration.

No one is trying to argue that black students were at a disadvantage, it's established fact. Why do you keep arguing about it?
No one is trying to argue that black employees were at a disadvantage, it's established fact. Why do you keep arguing about it?

No one is trying to argue that white people had an advantage backed up with by the force of law. If you think they still do, let's talk about the laws that are written to benefit white skin color.

BUT TODAY:

Do white students get accepted with lower test scores than black students do BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN?
Do black students get accepted with lower test scores than white students do BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN?

Everyone should face the same requirements for the opportunity. You keep wanting to argue about history. I'm not arguing with you about it.

 

[Foxfyre]

You don't stop the racist mentality by ignoring it. Funny how it's primarily whites who think its that simple. The fact that advantages were mandated by law and the damage caused by such mandates exist today escapes a specific portion of the white community that excuses this with comments like:

"That some will have advantages others don't has ALWAYS been the case whether or not racial factors are present."

Sorry, but coming from a loving home with books in it, is not the solution.

We had a library in our house and we still faced racism from whites that denied us of things less qualified whites got.

Unfair discrimination or treatment of ANYBODY based on their skin color, ethnicity, religion or whatever should not be acceptable to anybody, and, when it causes economic or material harm, it should be illegal.

Otherwise the First Amendment gives every America the right to think what they think, believe what they believe, no matter how wrong or stupid, with impunity from the government and the government has zero constitutional authority to tell Americans what they must think and believe about anything.

The American people have eliminated all the legal discriminatory practices that caused people economic or material harm. That never would have happened without proactive action by a majority of white people.

Now it is time to start teaching the American people that skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color and allowing the last residual racist views to dissolve. Dividing people by color, teaching or encouraging people to be racist, i.e. judge according to race, and promoting beliefs that naturally make people angry and/or unmotivated to help themselves and/or blame anything and everything but themselves for their failures or lack of success, is not only counter productive, IMO it is morally wrong and should be culturally unacceptable to anybody.

 

[IM2]

No one is trying to argue that black students were at a disadvantage, it's established fact. Why do you keep arguing about it?
No one is trying to argue that black employees were at a disadvantage, it's established fact. Why do you keep arguing about it?

No one is trying to argue that white people had an advantage backed up with by the force of law. If you think they still do, let's talk about the laws that are written to benefit white skin color.

BUT TODAY:

Do white students get accepted with lower test scores than black students do BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN?
Do black students get accepted with lower test scores than white students do BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN?

Everyone should face the same requirements for the opportunity. You keep wanting to argue about history. I'm not arguing with you about it.

Sorry, but because of the past, you don't get to use that dodge. For all 246 years America has been a country, whites have been given things because of the color of their skin. Legacy admissions have benefitted whites because blacks were denied in the past. I refuse to allow you to try this dishonest tactic.

Finally, in more than 900 colleges test scores are either optional or not considered and since test scores are neither accurate indicators of scholastic success or are a major determinant for admissions this argument that only uses test scores as the basis to make claims has no merit.

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't prefer any status quo and this thread is all about somebody complaining because whites cannot get everything some believe they are entitled to.

That's what I talking about, White entitlement. We need to stop thinking in these terms. Constantly making these distinctions and drawing lines in the sand are not doing anyone any good.

 

[IM2]

Unfair discrimination or treatment of ANYBODY based on their skin color, ethnicity, religion or whatever should not be acceptable to anybody, and, when it causes economic or material harm, it should be illegal.

Otherwise the First Amendment gives every America the right to think what they think, believe what they believe, no matter how wrong or stupid, with impunity from the government and the government has zero constitutional authority to tell Americans what they must think and believe about anything.

The American people have eliminated all the legal discriminatory practices that caused people economic or material harm.

Now it is time to start teaching the American people that skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color and allowing the last residual racist views to dissolve. Dividing people by color, teaching or encouraging people to be racist, i.e. judge according to race, and promoting beliefs that naturally make people angry and/or unmotivated to help themselves, is not only counter productive, IMO it is morally wrong and should be culturally unacceptable to anybody.

Whites are not being discriminated against. Whites are 60 percent of the populatiin, 77 percent of the workforce and 80 percent of management. Blacks are 13 percent of the population,12 percent of the workforce and 9 percent of the management.

"The American people have eliminated all the legal discriminatory practices that caused people economic or material harm."

Really? USMB member Flash shows your statement is false.

“I can say for sure that happens because I did it. Before retirement, I was an Engineer. For the last 20 years of my career, I was a Manager and Director and I hired hundreds of people. I reviewed well over a thousand resumes for all kinds of positions. Everything from Secretaries to Engineering Managers. Both Salary and Hourly. I always culled out the resumes with Black Ethnic names. Never shortlisted anybody with a Black Ethnic name. Never hired them.” Since the Fortune 50 company I worked for had a stupid “affirmative action” hiring policies I never mentioned it to anybody and I always got away with it. A couple of times I was instructed to improve my departmental “diversity” demographics but I always ignored it and never got into any trouble. My stereotype is that anybody with a stupid ghetto Black ethnic name is probably worthless. I could have been wrong a couple of times but I was also probably right 99% of the time. Glad I did it. I would do it again.”

And don't pretend this is the only case. There are millions doing this very thing. And you know it.

Now is the time for WHITES to do their part in fixing the damage white racism has caused. It won't be done by not talking about it. Last, whites like YOU need to educate yourselves on the impact white racism had and continues having on people of color. Whites divided people by race and deny opportunities because of it right now. The attitude whites like you have keeps racial animosity alive because you don't want to take responsibility for the harm white racism has caused.

 

[IM2]

That's what I talking about, White entitlement. We need to stop thinking in these terms. Constantly making these distinctions and drawing lines in the sand are not doing anyone any good.

No we don't. Until whites who do so stop thinking they are entitled to everything while running around with a zero sum mentality. We keep getting told about responsibility from especially right wing whites but when it is time for whites to be held to account, the excuses begin about how wrong that is or how it can't do anyone any good..

 

[hadit]

Sorry, but because of the past, you don't get to use that dodge. For all 246 years America has been a country, whites have been given things because of the color of their skin. Legacy admissions have benefitted whites because blacks were denied in the past. I refuse to allow you to try this dishonest tactic.

Finally, in more than 900 colleges test scores are either optional or not considered and since test scores are neither accurate indicators of scholastic success or are a major determinant for admissions this argument that only uses test scores as the basis to make claims has no merit.

There's no dodge, it's a simple question, and obviously you don't want to answer it honestly because if you did, you'd have to concede that it is not legal to have a "whites only" admissions policy or to have lower standards for white students. I've given you multiple opportunities to show which schools today have lower requirements for white students solely because they are white, and you continue to talk about 60 years ago.

You keep insisting that white students get an advantage, but when pressed can only point to legacy admissions or kids of donors, neither of which is limited to white students. One last time, show me any school in the nation that grants advantages to white students solely on the basis that they have white skin. When you can't, don't fail to say something about 60 years ago.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Whites have always benefitted from lower expectations and requirements. Only when laws were made to create equal opportunities did we start seeing whites associate minorities with lowered expectations. Until you can face this reality all you'll have is mealy -mouthed garbage that denies the past because that past is evidence of how whites were not concerned with standards and race was the only consideration.

Whites were always required to sink or swim on their own efforts. Whites were always the majority of the population so there were NO programs designed to give them advantages.

 

[Billo_Really]

No we don't. Until whites who do so stop thinking they are entitled to everything while running around with a zero sum mentality. We keep getting told about responsibility from especially right wing whites but when it is time for whites to be held to account, the excuses begin about how wrong that is or how it can't do anyone any good..

I thought that is what I just said? That whites need stop feeling entitled to stuff!

 

[Rogue AI]

Why you hate equality is beyond my abilities to reason.

Special treatment and blatantly racist policies like affirmative action are the opposite if equality.

 

[JoeB131]

The upcoming Oct 31st hearing on whether one’s race can determine whether he is admitted or rejected from an educational program will undoubtedly uphold the Constitution, and thus blacks, whites, and Asians will all be evaluated with race removed from the equation.

This will reach beyond the Ivy halls and into the workplace. No longer will a black with worse qualifications be hired or promoted over a better qualified white because of skin color.

So when do we stop affirmative action for idiot nephews?

 

[JoeB131]

And sometimes it takes multiple generations to see that success. How many immigrants in the last century got here with very little, started a business, worked at it 16 hours a day, and their family finally saw success two generations down the line?

You mean being white enough and assimilating? The problem with that argument is that when white immigrants came here, they were expected to assimilate, whether they wanted to or not. My grandfather stopped calling himself "Ludwig" when he came here and started calling himself "Louis". (He also changed the way we pronounce the family name, but that has kind of stuck.)

Blacks don't really have that option.

Now, fun fact, Latin America never had the kinds of racial segregation laws that we had. So blacks, whites and natives interbred pretty freely and they have nowhere near the race problems we have.

 

[hadit]

You mean being white enough and assimilating? The problem with that argument is that when white immigrants came here, they were expected to assimilate, whether they wanted to or not. My grandfather stopped calling himself "Ludwig" when he came here and started calling himself "Louis". (He also changed the way we pronounce the family name, but that has kind of stuck.)

Blacks don't really have that option.

Now, fun fact, Latin America never had the kinds of racial segregation laws that we had. So blacks, whites and natives interbred pretty freely and they have nowhere near the race problems we have.

You're not going to get an argument about racial segregation laws. I don't know anyone today that thinks they were a great idea, except maybe democrats before 1970. As for assimilating, it only makes sense that you would be more successful, have a larger market for your goods and services, etc. if you appeal to the major cultural group in your nation. And yes, black people DO have that option. Is your daughter more likely to assimilate into a majority European culture if she is named Shaniqua or Suzanne? Is Dad more likely to assimilate in an office if he wears African tribal gear or a suit? Is a family more likely to assimilate if they openly celebrate Kwanzaa or Christmas? Assimilating is merely de-emphasizing your differences and emphasizing your similarities.

Sometimes assimilation is a positive thing, like when it reduces discrimination, other times it's not, like when it makes you just another member of the herd, instead of unique.

I would also dispute your contention that racism in Latin America is not as problematic as what we've experienced. Apparently, they discriminate just as much as everyone else does.

Reconstructing Race: Racism, Culture and Mestizaje in Latin America

"One of the most puzzling, disconcerting phenomena that the non-native visitor confronts while traveling in Latin America is the relative ease with which pervasive and very visible discriminatory practices coexist with the denial of racism. Although, of late, new social movements have challenged the “normality” of this practice, it has not subsided. The usual local explanation our traveler might receive—whether in metropolitan centers like Lima, Bogotá or Santiago, or in provincial cities like Cuzco, Cali or Temuco—is that the discriminatory behavior, practiced both by the elite and the dispossessed, is not racism because it is based on cultural differences and not on skin color or any other biological marker. Race is not important in Latin America, our foreign friend would also be told; it is ethnicity that matters."

Fun fact, I lived in what was to become Belize from the age of 3 months to 4 years, and racism was not only present, but culturally enforced. The whiter, or "clearer" your skin was, the higher up the social ladder you were, and light-skinned natives and Africans participated, discriminating against darker-skinned people.

 

[Unkotare]

You mean being white enough and assimilating? The problem with that argument is that when white immigrants came here, they were expected to assimilate, whether they wanted to or not. My grandfather stopped calling himself "Ludwig" when he came here and started calling himself "Louis". (He also changed the way we pronounce the family name, but that has kind of stuck.)

Blacks don't really have that option.

Now, fun fact, Latin America never had the kinds of racial segregation laws that we had. So blacks, whites and natives interbred pretty freely and they have nowhere near the race problems we have.

100% bullshit.

 

[Foxfyre]

You mean being white enough and assimilating? The problem with that argument is that when white immigrants came here, they were expected to assimilate, whether they wanted to or not. My grandfather stopped calling himself "Ludwig" when he came here and started calling himself "Louis". (He also changed the way we pronounce the family name, but that has kind of stuck.)

Blacks don't really have that option.

Now, fun fact, Latin America never had the kinds of racial segregation laws that we had. So blacks, whites and natives interbred pretty freely and they have nowhere near the race problems we have.

Joe. I have not studied the history of Latin America as much as I have studied other histories, but I know for a FACT that racial issues have not only been part of that history but still are. While U.S. history has some horrendous and indefensible parts to it, it is by no means unique. In many ways we have done better to produce a culture of opportunity for all than many other countries.

The Persisting Impact of Racial Construction in Latin America

| by AUDREY DUC Research Associate at the Council on Hemispheric Affairs To download a PDF of this article, please click here. Although racism is not a new phenomenon in Latin America, the demonstration

www.coha.org

Racial discrimination in Latin America: It exists behind the scenes but is seldom talked about - CuencaHighLife

By Nicole Akoukou Thompson The Dominican Republic has a saying, “We’re black behind the ears.” And in Mexico, “there’s a black grandma in the closet.” Both statements refer to a long hidden history of African heritage, blackness, intermarriage and interbreeding. Discrimination in Latin America...

cuencahighlife.com