White man shoots innocent black teen....

[uptownlivin90]

So far, what we know isTrayvon Martin initiated a verbal confrontation.

it seems like the young man might have started a physical confrontation after he started a verbal confrontation, all before he knew the guy had an equalizer ... poor kid, but he acted stupidly. a tragedy for all involved.

The reports say Zimmerman was attacked and had a bad bruise on his face from being hit in the face with a soda can. A witness said the young man was on top of him beating the older man. That tells you the kid wasn't innocent in this either and there was a confrontation.


The chief listened to what Zimmerman said, there are reports that Zimmerman had wounds on him, and there is an eyewitness who saw him on the ground before he shot the kid.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-timeline-of-events/


According to the Sanford police report, George Zimmerman, 28, a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, is found armed with a handgun, standing over Martin. He has a bloody nose and a wound in the back of his head.

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

---

According to the victim's own girlfriend who was on the phone with him, the victim started a verbal confrontation: young man: "why you following me?" - Hispanic man: "what are you doing around here?" - a struggle ensues on girlfriend's call and call ends with NO shot heard.

so, a guy follows a kid. kid confronts the guy starting a verbal confrontation. a physical fight ensues. kid ends up shot and dies.

where is the crime?

So far, what we know isTrayvon Martin initiated a verbal confrontation. [/B]

it seems like the young man might have started a physical confrontation after he started a verbal confrontation, all before he knew the guy had an equalizer ... poor kid, but he acted stupidly. a tragedy for all involved.

Good job...

I guess you gotta take a compliment how ever you can get it these days huh?

 

[uptownlivin90]

That was a fucking moronic comment.

He should sell that statement to Sharpton.

I'm sure he could always use new fresh ideas to create controversy and get on TV.

I can't stand racists, no matter what side of the tracks they are from.

Absolutely.

Hate and racism is useless, it won't bring Trayvon back and it will just make society worse.

 

[Peach]

Good job...

I guess you gotta take a compliment how ever you can get it these days huh?

"Why are you following me"? is starting a verbal confrontation?

 

[Ravi]

I guess you gotta take a compliment how ever you can get it these days huh?

"Why are you following me"? is starting a verbal confrontation?

Dante Logic:

Dante could be walking down my street and I could be as well, several feet behind him. He could then turn to me and say, why are you following me? and I'd be justified in blowing his head off.

 

[The Gadfly]

I'm wondering why (1) Zimmerman is STILL walking around with a concealed carry liscence, and (2) why is this fucker still free?

Hey...........even when police officers shoot somone in the line of duty, they are put on paid leave until the investigation is complete.

Shouln't Zimmerman AT THE VERY LEAST have to surrender his permit? He's proven that he's capable of shooting unarmed people.

My questions along with why no BAC & drug tests? Obviously, his firearm should have been held for a few days for testing. I do not think Seminole county has everyday killings of strangers. Most killings are between family/friends.

I read they tested Trayvon's dead body for alcohol and drugs who is dead but not Zimmerman, what a huge joke.

HG, a tox screen is standard procedure in an autopsy. Doesn't mean anyone thought Martin was intoxicated or on drugs at all. Just routine.

 

[High_Gravity]

I guess you gotta take a compliment how ever you can get it these days huh?

"Why are you following me"? is starting a verbal confrontation?

Dante Logic:

Dante could be walking down my street and I could be as well, several feet behind him. He could then turn to me and say, why are you following me? and I'd be justified in blowing his head off.

Its not just Dante, several posters seem to follow that logic.

 

[The Gadfly]

I read they tested Trayvon's dead body for alcohol and drugs who is dead but not Zimmerman, what a huge joke.

If they had no probable cause to believe he was under the influence, they can't test him without violating his Constitutional rights.

Wouldn't probable cause be that he admitted shooting the kid?

Unless he showed some evidence of intoxication, probably not. The mere fact that an officer has sufficient probable cause to arrest someone does not necessarily mean there is probable cause for an alcohol test (which legally is a "search" according to legal precedent). You can't even force a DUI suspect to submit to a breath or BAC test ( you can take his license for refusing, in most states, but NOT force him to take a test-unlawful search, among other things).

 

[The Gadfly]

This was from last night:

Mary Cutcher describes what she witnessed that night.

"And at the time that we heard the whining and then the gunshot, we did not hear any wrestling, no punching, no fighting, nothing to make it sound like there was a fight," Cutcher said to Anderson Cooper.

Cutcher told Cooper that she does not believe the Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

"Originally, I didn't believe it was self-defense because of what we saw when we walked out on the porch. If it was self-defense, why was he on Trayvon's back?"

Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, who was also on Anderson Cooper 360, said she saw Zimmerman straddling Martin's body after the shooting.

Witness to FL teen shooting: not self-defense - WTOL.com: News, Weather and Sport for Toledo, Ohio

It doesn't jibe with Zimmerman's story that the kid was found face down with his hands under his body.

Why not? Ravi, tell me, does a man shot from in front always fall backward.? Yes or no?

 

[High_Gravity]

If they had no probable cause to believe he was under the influence, they can't test him without violating his Constitutional rights.

Wouldn't probable cause be that he admitted shooting the kid?

Unless he showed some evidence of intoxication, probably not. The mere fact that an officer has sufficient probable cause to arrest someone does not necessarily mean there is probable cause for an alcohol test (which legally is a "search" according to legal precedent). You can't even force a DUI suspect to submit to a breath or BAC test ( you can take his license for refusing, in most states, but NOT force him to take a test-unlawful search, among other things).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I run someone over with my car and kill them, I have to take a drug/alcohol test correct? and if so, why is it different with a shooting suspect?

 

[Emma]

Why not? Ravi, tell me, does a man shot from in front always fall backward.? Yes or no?

I have concerns about Martin being found face down with his arms underneath his body. If he was on top attacking, as zimmerman apparently claimed (and so many here argue) and with zimmerman on his back, how DID Martin end up in that position? If zimmerman fired the shot as he wrestled --- with Martin on top, it seems like the kid would have fallen backward (face up) or to the side. If he fell down on top of zimmerman, then he still would have been on his back or side as zimmerman pushed the body off himself. The only way I can see how he ended up in that position is if zimmerman shot him from behind. What am I missing here?

 

[Si modo]

Wouldn't probable cause be that he admitted shooting the kid?

Unless he showed some evidence of intoxication, probably not. The mere fact that an officer has sufficient probable cause to arrest someone does not necessarily mean there is probable cause for an alcohol test (which legally is a "search" according to legal precedent). You can't even force a DUI suspect to submit to a breath or BAC test ( you can take his license for refusing, in most states, but NOT force him to take a test-unlawful search, among other things).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I run someone over with my car and kill them, I have to take a drug/alcohol test correct? and if so, why is it different with a shooting suspect?

Not necessarily. The cops can give you a field sobriety test even if they don't suspect that you are buzzed. If you fail that, they can arrest you and then test your BAC (breathalyzer or blood draw). Failing the field test is the probable cause for a search of your person (breath and/or blood).

 

[The Gadfly]

Wouldn't probable cause be that he admitted shooting the kid?

Unless he showed some evidence of intoxication, probably not. The mere fact that an officer has sufficient probable cause to arrest someone does not necessarily mean there is probable cause for an alcohol test (which legally is a "search" according to legal precedent). You can't even force a DUI suspect to submit to a breath or BAC test ( you can take his license for refusing, in most states, but NOT force him to take a test-unlawful search, among other things).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I run someone over with my car and kill them, I have to take a drug/alcohol test correct? and if so, why is it different with a shooting suspect?

Good question HG. Unless your state's driver licensing statute says otherwise, though, the answer is NO, you don't, unless you consent. Otherwise, there has to be demonstrable probable cause that indicates you might have been impaired. On the other hand, if you were to be killed by say, a falling tree, your autopsy would include a toxicology screen as SOP. The law is sometimes a curious thing.

 

[The Gadfly]

Unless he showed some evidence of intoxication, probably not. The mere fact that an officer has sufficient probable cause to arrest someone does not necessarily mean there is probable cause for an alcohol test (which legally is a "search" according to legal precedent). You can't even force a DUI suspect to submit to a breath or BAC test ( you can take his license for refusing, in most states, but NOT force him to take a test-unlawful search, among other things).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I run someone over with my car and kill them, I have to take a drug/alcohol test correct? and if so, why is it different with a shooting suspect?

Not necessarily. The cops can give you a field sobriety test even if they don't suspect that you are buzzed. If you fail that, they can arrest you and then test your BAC (breathalyzer or blood draw). Failing the field test is the probable cause for a search of your person (breath and/or blood).

Precisely. Thanks.

 

[Emma]

I don't see anything in the police report that zimmerman had blood on his clothes. Has that been reported?

I saw a show not long ago about a man who'd shot another, claiming it was in self defense. There were other indications he was lying, but one thing that got him convicted was that it was proven he shot the man in the chest as the victim was kneeling facing the shooter, because the blood patterns showed arterial spray in front of the body. I wish I could remember exactly what they said about a shot to the chest and the pattern of blood spray, but it would seem that if zimmerman was facing Martin and shot him in the chest, he'd have been bloodied too. Since the heart and aorta lie in the front of the body, if he shot him in the back through the chest, would the blood have sprayed away from zimmerman (iow out in front of Martin)?

 

[Peach]

"Why are you following me"? is starting a verbal confrontation?

Dante Logic:

Dante could be walking down my street and I could be as well, several feet behind him. He could then turn to me and say, why are you following me? and I'd be justified in blowing his head off.

Its not just Dante, several posters seem to follow that logic.

That appears to be the train of thought that leads to "why are you following me" as a CONFRONTATION.

 

[Si modo]

Dante Logic:

Dante could be walking down my street and I could be as well, several feet behind him. He could then turn to me and say, why are you following me? and I'd be justified in blowing his head off.

Its not just Dante, several posters seem to follow that logic.

That appears to be the train of thought that leads to "why are you following me" as a CONFRONTATION.

Technically, it is a confrontation, if one goes with actual definitions. Confrontations are commonplace for everyone who has contact with others. Combat is another situation, though.

 

[The Gadfly]

Why not? Ravi, tell me, does a man shot from in front always fall backward.? Yes or no?

I have concerns about Martin being found face down with his arms underneath his body. If he was on top attacking, as zimmerman apparently claimed (and so many here argue) and with zimmerman on his back, how DID Martin end up in that position? If zimmerman fired the shot as he wrestled --- with Martin on top, it seems like the kid would have fallen backward (face up) or to the side. If he fell down on top of zimmerman, then he still would have been on his back or side as zimmerman pushed the body off himself. The only way I can see how he ended up in that position is if zimmerman shot him from behind. What am I missing here?

Emma, this may help, From my post #895:


Martin was found face down; was he shot in the back? There is a common misconception, (expressed by some posters here) that a person shot from the front will always fall backwards. so that if Martin fell on his face as found, he must have been shot from behind. Having shot a considerable number of men in combat, and seen even more shot in that situation, I can tell you that a man shot from the front may just as easily fall forward, and a man shot from behind can just as easily fall backward.. Sometimes an individual shot from in front will be thrown violently backward( the result of a reaction of the nervous system to the impact of the bullet, I'm told) but that does not happen all or even most of the time in reality, no matter what you may have seen in the movies. Here, we have to have the autopsy findings (which should be conclusive on this point). The fact that Martin fell face down proves absolutely nothing. Still no proof for either self-defense, or manslaughter.

In addition,the autopsy will show us the path of the bullet, which will also show the relative positions of the two individuals at the moment the shot was fired. As for arterial blood spray, that would depend on where the bullet hit Martin; it could be considerable, or virtually non-existent. Bottom line, we need the autopsy findings to be sure of anything.

 

[High_Gravity]

Its not just Dante, several posters seem to follow that logic.

That appears to be the train of thought that leads to "why are you following me" as a CONFRONTATION.

Technically, it is a confrontation, if one goes with actual definitions. Confrontations are commonplace for everyone who has contact with others. Combat is another situation, though.

A confrontation can be almost anything with face to face contact no?

 

[Si modo]

That appears to be the train of thought that leads to "why are you following me" as a CONFRONTATION.

Technically, it is a confrontation, if one goes with actual definitions. Confrontations are commonplace for everyone who has contact with others. Combat is another situation, though.

A confrontation can be almost anything with face to face contact no?

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

 

[Emma]

Why not? Ravi, tell me, does a man shot from in front always fall backward.? Yes or no?

I have concerns about Martin being found face down with his arms underneath his body. If he was on top attacking, as zimmerman apparently claimed (and so many here argue) and with zimmerman on his back, how DID Martin end up in that position? If zimmerman fired the shot as he wrestled --- with Martin on top, it seems like the kid would have fallen backward (face up) or to the side. If he fell down on top of zimmerman, then he still would have been on his back or side as zimmerman pushed the body off himself. The only way I can see how he ended up in that position is if zimmerman shot him from behind. What am I missing here?

Emma, this may help, From my post #895:


Martin was found face down; was he shot in the back? There is a common misconception, (expressed by some posters here) that a person shot from the front will always fall backwards. so that if Martin fell on his face as found, he must have been shot from behind. Having shot a considerable number of men in combat, and seen even more shot in that situation, I can tell you that a man shot from the front may just as easily fall forward, and a man shot from behind can just as easily fall backward.. Sometimes an individual shot from in front will be thrown violently backward( the result of a reaction of the nervous system to the impact of the bullet, I'm told) but that does not happen all or even most of the time in reality, no matter what you may have seen in the movies. Here, we have to have the autopsy findings (which should be conclusive on this point). The fact that Martin fell face down proves absolutely nothing. Still no proof for either self-defense, or manslaughter.

In addition,the autopsy will show us the path of the bullet, which will also show the relative positions of the two individuals at the moment the shot was fired. As for arterial blood spray, that would depend on where the bullet hit Martin; it could be considerable, or virtually non-existent. Bottom line, we need the autopsy findings to be sure of anything.

Thank you. I don't doubt for a minute that a person can fall in any direction when shot. What's being held here is that zimmerman was on his back, being attacked by Martin (grass noted on the back of zimmerman's jacket). It seems from what the witnesses have said, the shot came as they were wrestling about. That's where I have a hard time seeing how Martin ended up face down with his arms underneath his body.