Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[Pogo]

"Insulting"?

Insulting to who?

I guess that is the point ... How could it possibly be insulting?

Sorry, I misread. Thought you were employing sarcasm, my mistake.

Maybe you did ... Maybe you didn't ... Maybe I was sarcastic both times or neither.
That is the beauty of it ... You aren't me so you do know.

Of course we could have a day long discussion to investigate the possibility of whether or not I may have felt insulted and the fundamental reasons behind it.
But really ... Who cares anyway ... I am white and it doesn't really matter.

I like you. But you make my brain hurt.

I'm goin' back to cashews. Less salty.

 

[Foxfyre]

Expanding on my previous post, I am in no way saying that there is no racism now. I am not saying that some black people don't get a raw deal. I am not saying that there are no problems to be solved. But instead of looking at the problems themselves, and what has to happen to correct them, these White Privilege classes etc. are not dealing with solutions. They are dealing with blame. And they are pushing many of the same things that has created white privilege among people that in no way are to blame for it.

And until we can look at THAT, we are just spinning our wheels.

The difference in what all the white privilege people think is best described (in my opinion) in this part of your comment ...

"I am not saying that some black people don't get a raw deal."

They are saying that all black people got a raw deal because they are black.
Blacks weren't born with the privilege of being white.

.

But they continue to push the very things that forces us to set black people apart from everybody else. They push the very things that force people to see blacks as more sensitive and fragile than everybody else, more wounded when people are rude or explicit. They unintentionally or intentionally push the perception that black people are less capable of succeeding or prospering or succeeding without programs like Affirmative Action and changing or lowering standards so more black people can qualify for positions.

And that in turn creates more 'white privilege' as we who happen to have been born white aren't automatically targeted as being more fragile or sensitive or less capable. Nobody questions how most of us have succeeded, received our promotion, qualified for the job or the promotion.

Let's get rid of 'white privilege' by allowing black people to join society where they will be treated exactly like everybody else so that they will be seen as equal human beings instead of a protected class.

 

[BlackSand]

I like you. But you make my brain hurt.

I'm goin' back to cashews. Less salty.

Your brain only hurts because you are thinking too hard.
It is kind of like the idea that we need White Privilege Classes.

Flopper mentioned he doesn't think they are designed to achieve a goal ... So in other words it would be a bunch of folks sitting around and bitchin'.
That would of course make my brain hurt ... And without a goal would be wasted time.

I am sure some intellectual folks might get some enjoyment out of White Privilege Class ... Much like some folks like Opera.
Opera makes me want to run out of there screaming ... And find the closest bar that plays anything different ... But hating Opera doesn't mean I don't like the folks that perform it, like it or even love it.

.

 

[Pogo]

I like you. But you make my brain hurt.

I'm goin' back to cashews. Less salty.

Your brain only hurts because you are thinking too hard.

See that? You took "brain hurt" too literally. Two can play this game.

It is kind of like the idea that we need White Privilege Classes. Flopper mentioned he doesn't think they are designed to achieve a goal ... So in other words it would be a bunch of folks sitting around and bitchin'.
That would of course make my brain hurt ... And without a goal would be wasted time.

I am sure some intellectual folks might get some enjoyment out of White Privilege Class ... Much like some folks like Opera.
Opera makes me want to run out of there screaming ... And find the closest bar that plays anything different ... But hating Opera doesn't mean I don't like the folks that perform it, like it or even love it.

Fully agree. Unless the bar was playing "country" -- then I'm still running.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Many in this thread have had an honest discussion about race. If Colleges want to teach something regarding this issue...and to have a goal....a non pc honest discussion would be a place to start. And yes....white privilege should a part of the discussion....but in the context of multiple other factors.

 

[Flopper]

Many in this thread have had an honest discussion about race. If Colleges want to teach something regarding this issue...and to have a goal....a non pc honest discussion would be a place to start. And yes....white privilege should a part of the discussion....but in the context of multiple other factors.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The idea of White Privilege deserves to be a topic in classes on African American studies. I'm not sure it has a place in a campus wide discussion on race because there it's not goal orientated. Most discussion on race are very goal orientated, such as abolish Affirmative Action, bus transportation in black neighborhoods, police brutality, more lighting in black neighborhoods, better after school programs, etc...

Anytime a discussion on race does not advocate some action, then pundits on the Left and Right will conjure up such actions.

 

[320 Years of History]

Many in this thread have had an honest discussion about race. If Colleges want to teach something regarding this issue...and to have a goal....a non pc honest discussion would be a place to start. And yes....white privilege should a part of the discussion....but in the context of multiple other factors.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The idea of White Privilege deserves to be a topic in classes on African American studies. I'm not sure it has a place in a campus wide discussion on race because there it's not goal orientated. Most discussion on race are very goal orientated, such as abolish Affirmative Action, bus transportation in black neighborhoods, police brutality, more lighting in black neighborhoods, better after school programs, etc...

Anytime a discussion on race does not advocate some action, then pundits on the Left and Right will conjure up such actions.

Say what? What does it take, in your mind, for a topic to be goal oriented?

Goals for studying, discussing or considering the matter of white privilege:

• To inform individuals about the historic and political origins of white privilege.
• To inform individuals about the nature and manifestations of white privilege.
• To reconcile the ethical dilemma deriving from the existence of racism in in the presence of capitalism which encourages one to avail oneself of one's advantages – and guard one's privileges.
  
• To identify the ways in which white privilege damages whites as well as non-whites.
  • Anxiety over maintaining superiority
  • Diminished capacity for empathy/situational awareness of impacts and outcomes of certain political decisions
  • Reduced awareness of how one is truly perceived by others
• To identify, practice and implement ways to overcome the racism-capitalism quandary.
• To distinguish understanding white privilege from feeling guilty about being white
• To reinforce a central point of any history course: that even as we romantically, perhaps sometimes quixotically, revel in the past when it adulates us, we should also accept and take responsibility for the less glorifying aspects of our past – not solely to understand the nature, extent and timing of how, when and why our forebears created the problems, but because understanding those things empowers us to fix them.

White Lies: A Critical Race Study of Power and Privilege

 

[Foxfyre]

Wow, I had forgotten about this thread, but there was a good discussion going on.

I get e-mails from Walter Williams PhD consisting of selective writings of his and had received the one printed below some time back. It resurfaced in my computer archives recently when I was looking for something else. Wiliams and his friend Thomas Sowell, PhD, have both written extensively on racism in America and around the world. In this e-mail/article he gave numerous examples of how White Privilege training is so prevalent in our society. The content of the list is so absurd he didn't even both prefacing it. It really does speak for itself. (I hunted up a link for the essay just for purposes of authentication and that appears to include some links to his sources.)

What would you think if your 8-year-old came home and told you that "white privilege is something that white people have, meaning they have an advantage in a lot of things and they can get a job more easily"? You would have heard that at the recent 15th annual White Privilege Conference in Madison, Wisconsin, attended by 2,500 public-school teachers, administrators and students from across the nation

The average parent has no idea of the devious indoctrination going on in classrooms in many public schools. What follows are some of the lessons of the conference.

In one of the workshops, "Examining White Privilege and Building Foundations for Social Justice Thinking in the Elementary Classroom," educators Rosemary Colt and Diana Reeves told how teachers can "insert social justice, anti-racist information" into their lessons that "even little kids" can understand.

Kim Radersma, a former high-school English teacher, hosted a session titled "Stories from the front lines of education: Confessions of a white, high school English teacher." She said that teaching is a purely political act and that neutral people should "get the f—- out of education" (Prison Planet.com » White Privilege Conference: Being white is like being an alcoholic). She also explained: "Being a white person who does anti-racist work is like being an alcoholic. I will never be recovered by my alcoholism, to use the metaphor. I have to every day wake up and acknowledge that I am so deeply embedded with racist thoughts and notions and actions in my body that I have to choose every day to do anti-racist work and think in an anti-racist way".

But the propaganda and lunacy go even deeper. Jacqueline Battalora, professor of sociology and criminal justice at Saint Xavier University, informed conference participants that "white people did not exist before 1681. Again, white people did not exist on planet earth until 1681" (Chilling Video Shows Second Graders Parroting Lines About White Privilege). That's truly incredible. If Professor Battalora is correct, how are we to identify William Shakespeare (1564), Sir Isaac Newton (1642), John Locke (1632), Leonardo da Vinci (1452) and especially dear Plato (428 B.C.)? Were these men people of color, or did they not exist?

John A. Powell, a University of California, Berkeley law professor, told his audience, "And right now, I'm going to suggest to you that race is driving almost everything that's happening in the country." He explained the Hurricane Katrina disaster in New Orleans by saying, "They took money away from protecting the levees because the levees were protecting black people."

Stephanie Baran's message to conference participants was that capitalism is the cause of racism in the world today. This adjunct professor at Kankakee Community College, who calls herself a vulgar Marxist, added that racism was invented in Colonial America by white capitalists as a tool to divide labor and keep the working class in their place.

Educator Paul Kivel explained what he sees as Christian hegemony, saying, "Very simply, I define it as the everyday pervasive, deep-seated and institutionalized dominance of Christian values, Christian institutions, leaders and Christians as a group, primarily for the benefit of Christian ruling elites."

Speaker Leonard Zeskind — according to the MacIver Institute, which covered the event — explained that "the longer you are in the tea party the more racist you become." He added, "Parents put their kids in private schools because they're racist."

University of Iowa Professor Adrien Wing gave some of her observations about white privilege, asking, "Does having a black president change that? Has it changed that? Unfortunately, it hasn't. ... (President Obama) ends up being the front man for the system. ... He works for the master of the system of white privilege."

I can't imagine people being stupid enough to believe all that was said at the White Privilege Conference. There's something else at work. I think it's white guilt. That's why, for almost three decades, there has appeared on my website a certificate of amnesty and pardon that I've granted to Americans of European ancestry in the hope that they stop feeling guilty and stop acting like fools .​

White Privilege by Walter E.Williams

 

[Andylusion]

I've never understood the concept. I would understand wealth privilege. Inherently, if my parents are hard working, and thus have a middle, or upper class life style, generally kids learn from their parents how to live.

I would also understand moral privilege. People who have morals, and raise their kids with morals and work ethic tend to do better.

But tying it to being 'white' is insane. It's not logical by any rationale. First, Asians routinely and consistently earn more than Caucasians.

They also have the least chance of being shot, relative to their population, than any other sub-group, including Caucasians.

How does the "white privilege" crowd account for this Asian privilege? Are all the police and businesses, racists against whites, in favor of Asians?

Of course the answer is actually very simple. Asians have moral privilege. The reasons they are shot less than any other group, is very simply because they have the least involvement in violent crime, or crime in general... .even less than whites.

They also have wealth privilege. Asian parents are hard working. And their kids are guided to get useful degrees, in high paying fields. You don't see many Asians with "Art History" or "Music Therapy" degrees.

An Asian couple came here from Laos. Didn't know English. Learned the language, and at the same time, went to school to be CNC Programmers. Both got jobs earning over $50,000, and between the two of them pulled $100,000 a year. Asians..... Seriously. Did you miss the "white privilege" memo? You can't come here, not have formal education, not have a college degree, and make 6-figure incomes.

Another key aspect of Asians, that is true even to this day, is that Asian tend to get married and stay married. Again, morals. Morals equals wealth. Lastly, Asians are generally big savers, and tend to be frugal.

Obviously these are generally true, and there are always exceptions.

But if you believe in so-called "White Privilege", you would have to explain not only the Asian question, but also, why are there poor white people? Explain me for example. I grew up in an upper middle class family. My parents are millionaires. I'm 39 years old. And last year, I had a record breaking income of $23,000.

Where is my white privilege? Why haven't I gotten any breaks? Where's my glorious easy middle class income? Why is my privilege, to work in a hot sweaty, warehouse, lifting 50 lbs laser printers off skids to test them? Don't get me wrong. I have the job that I am capable of doing, and earning what I deserve for it.

But to claim I have some magical white privilege? I wish! Man, I wish I could earn some real money just for being white. Where is this money hiding?

I was just talking with a co-worker from India. He got basic schooling in India, came to the US, got a degree in computer programming. He was working where I was, just as a back up job. His main job, was $80,000 a year.... in addition to this other job. He's 24, and owns a house in India outright, free and clear. No loans. Now he's buying a house in the US, outright free and clear. No loan. He already owns a car, $30,000 sports car, free and clear. No loan. He has thousands in the bank. His wife is finishing her degree, and she'll be getting a job.

This guy is going to easily have a net worth of half a million by the time he's 25. How? Did he miss the white privilege memo?

No, he has moral privilege. Follows the laws. Has an intact family. Was taught right from wrong. He has wealth privilege, in that his parents taught him to work, and he's working two jobs full time.

The entire white privilege, I'm absolutely convinced, is just an excuse for lazy immoral stupid people, to avoid responsibility for their own actions. That's all there is to it.

 

[Foxfyre]

I've never understood the concept. I would understand wealth privilege. Inherently, if my parents are hard working, and thus have a middle, or upper class life style, generally kids learn from their parents how to live.

I would also understand moral privilege. People who have morals, and raise their kids with morals and work ethic tend to do better.

But tying it to being 'white' is insane. It's not logical by any rationale. First, Asians routinely and consistently earn more than Caucasians.

They also have the least chance of being shot, relative to their population, than any other sub-group, including Caucasians.

How does the "white privilege" crowd account for this Asian privilege? Are all the police and businesses, racists against whites, in favor of Asians?

Of course the answer is actually very simple. Asians have moral privilege. The reasons they are shot less than any other group, is very simply because they have the least involvement in violent crime, or crime in general... .even less than whites.

They also have wealth privilege. Asian parents are hard working. And their kids are guided to get useful degrees, in high paying fields. You don't see many Asians with "Art History" or "Music Therapy" degrees.

An Asian couple came here from Laos. Didn't know English. Learned the language, and at the same time, went to school to be CNC Programmers. Both got jobs earning over $50,000, and between the two of them pulled $100,000 a year. Asians..... Seriously. Did you miss the "white privilege" memo? You can't come here, not have formal education, not have a college degree, and make 6-figure incomes.

Another key aspect of Asians, that is true even to this day, is that Asian tend to get married and stay married. Again, morals. Morals equals wealth. Lastly, Asians are generally big savers, and tend to be frugal.

Obviously these are generally true, and there are always exceptions.

But if you believe in so-called "White Privilege", you would have to explain not only the Asian question, but also, why are there poor white people? Explain me for example. I grew up in an upper middle class family. My parents are millionaires. I'm 39 years old. And last year, I had a record breaking income of $23,000.

Where is my white privilege? Why haven't I gotten any breaks? Where's my glorious easy middle class income? Why is my privilege, to work in a hot sweaty, warehouse, lifting 50 lbs laser printers off skids to test them? Don't get me wrong. I have the job that I am capable of doing, and earning what I deserve for it.

But to claim I have some magical white privilege? I wish! Man, I wish I could earn some real money just for being white. Where is this money hiding?

I was just talking with a co-worker from India. He got basic schooling in India, came to the US, got a degree in computer programming. He was working where I was, just as a back up job. His main job, was $80,000 a year.... in addition to this other job. He's 24, and owns a house in India outright, free and clear. No loans. Now he's buying a house in the US, outright free and clear. No loan. He already owns a car, $30,000 sports car, free and clear. No loan. He has thousands in the bank. His wife is finishing her degree, and she'll be getting a job.

This guy is going to easily have a net worth of half a million by the time he's 25. How? Did he miss the white privilege memo?

No, he has moral privilege. Follows the laws. Has an intact family. Was taught right from wrong. He has wealth privilege, in that his parents taught him to work, and he's working two jobs full time.

The entire white privilege, I'm absolutely convinced, is just an excuse for lazy immoral stupid people, to avoid responsibility for their own actions. That's all there is to it.

Excellent post. Maybe not always laziness as much as choosing a victim mentality over self determination.

You do realize that it is politically incorrect to suggest that the choices we make, the kind of family lives we develop, the goals we set, the ethics we employ, and the goals we set for ourselves are far more important in the life we enjoy than is skin color or any other attributes over which we have no control.

You are spot on re the Asians as I have known several different individuals and families who arrived in the USA with little cash, minimal education, and no English to speak of. But every one of them overcame those handicaps mostly on their own and became prosperous. It is a different mindset.

 

[Correll]

Wow, I had forgotten about this thread, but there was a good discussion going on.

I get e-mails from Walter Williams PhD consisting of selective writings of his and had received the one printed below some time back. It resurfaced in my computer archives recently when I was looking for something else. Wiliams and his friend Thomas Sowell, PhD, have both written extensively on racism in America and around the world. In this e-mail/article he gave numerous examples of how White Privilege training is so prevalent in our society. The content of the list is so absurd he didn't even both prefacing it. It really does speak for itself. (I hunted up a link for the essay just for purposes of authentication and that appears to include some links to his sources.)

What would you think if your 8-year-old came home and told you that "white privilege is something that white people have, meaning they have an advantage in a lot of things and they can get a job more easily"? You would have heard that at the recent 15th annual White Privilege Conference in Madison, Wisconsin, attended by 2,500 public-school teachers, administrators and students from across the nation

The average parent has no idea of the devious indoctrination going on in classrooms in many public schools. What follows are some of the lessons of the conference.

In one of the workshops, "Examining White Privilege and Building Foundations for Social Justice Thinking in the Elementary Classroom," educators Rosemary Colt and Diana Reeves told how teachers can "insert social justice, anti-racist information" into their lessons that "even little kids" can understand.

Kim Radersma, a former high-school English teacher, hosted a session titled "Stories from the front lines of education: Confessions of a white, high school English teacher." She said that teaching is a purely political act and that neutral people should "get the f—- out of education" (Prison Planet.com » White Privilege Conference: Being white is like being an alcoholic). She also explained: "Being a white person who does anti-racist work is like being an alcoholic. I will never be recovered by my alcoholism, to use the metaphor. I have to every day wake up and acknowledge that I am so deeply embedded with racist thoughts and notions and actions in my body that I have to choose every day to do anti-racist work and think in an anti-racist way".

But the propaganda and lunacy go even deeper. Jacqueline Battalora, professor of sociology and criminal justice at Saint Xavier University, informed conference participants that "white people did not exist before 1681. Again, white people did not exist on planet earth until 1681" (Chilling Video Shows Second Graders Parroting Lines About White Privilege). That's truly incredible. If Professor Battalora is correct, how are we to identify William Shakespeare (1564), Sir Isaac Newton (1642), John Locke (1632), Leonardo da Vinci (1452) and especially dear Plato (428 B.C.)? Were these men people of color, or did they not exist?

John A. Powell, a University of California, Berkeley law professor, told his audience, "And right now, I'm going to suggest to you that race is driving almost everything that's happening in the country." He explained the Hurricane Katrina disaster in New Orleans by saying, "They took money away from protecting the levees because the levees were protecting black people."

Stephanie Baran's message to conference participants was that capitalism is the cause of racism in the world today. This adjunct professor at Kankakee Community College, who calls herself a vulgar Marxist, added that racism was invented in Colonial America by white capitalists as a tool to divide labor and keep the working class in their place.

Educator Paul Kivel explained what he sees as Christian hegemony, saying, "Very simply, I define it as the everyday pervasive, deep-seated and institutionalized dominance of Christian values, Christian institutions, leaders and Christians as a group, primarily for the benefit of Christian ruling elites."

Speaker Leonard Zeskind — according to the MacIver Institute, which covered the event — explained that "the longer you are in the tea party the more racist you become." He added, "Parents put their kids in private schools because they're racist."

University of Iowa Professor Adrien Wing gave some of her observations about white privilege, asking, "Does having a black president change that? Has it changed that? Unfortunately, it hasn't. ... (President Obama) ends up being the front man for the system. ... He works for the master of the system of white privilege."

I can't imagine people being stupid enough to believe all that was said at the White Privilege Conference. There's something else at work. I think it's white guilt. That's why, for almost three decades, there has appeared on my website a certificate of amnesty and pardon that I've granted to Americans of European ancestry in the hope that they stop feeling guilty and stop acting like fools .​

White Privilege by Walter E.Williams

White Privilege is a lie designed to give cover to anti-white discrimination and racism.

 

[Foxfyre]

Wow, I had forgotten about this thread, but there was a good discussion going on.

I get e-mails from Walter Williams PhD consisting of selective writings of his and had received the one printed below some time back. It resurfaced in my computer archives recently when I was looking for something else. Wiliams and his friend Thomas Sowell, PhD, have both written extensively on racism in America and around the world. In this e-mail/article he gave numerous examples of how White Privilege training is so prevalent in our society. The content of the list is so absurd he didn't even both prefacing it. It really does speak for itself. (I hunted up a link for the essay just for purposes of authentication and that appears to include some links to his sources.)

What would you think if your 8-year-old came home and told you that "white privilege is something that white people have, meaning they have an advantage in a lot of things and they can get a job more easily"? You would have heard that at the recent 15th annual White Privilege Conference in Madison, Wisconsin, attended by 2,500 public-school teachers, administrators and students from across the nation

The average parent has no idea of the devious indoctrination going on in classrooms in many public schools. What follows are some of the lessons of the conference.

In one of the workshops, "Examining White Privilege and Building Foundations for Social Justice Thinking in the Elementary Classroom," educators Rosemary Colt and Diana Reeves told how teachers can "insert social justice, anti-racist information" into their lessons that "even little kids" can understand.

Kim Radersma, a former high-school English teacher, hosted a session titled "Stories from the front lines of education: Confessions of a white, high school English teacher." She said that teaching is a purely political act and that neutral people should "get the f—- out of education" (Prison Planet.com » White Privilege Conference: Being white is like being an alcoholic). She also explained: "Being a white person who does anti-racist work is like being an alcoholic. I will never be recovered by my alcoholism, to use the metaphor. I have to every day wake up and acknowledge that I am so deeply embedded with racist thoughts and notions and actions in my body that I have to choose every day to do anti-racist work and think in an anti-racist way".

But the propaganda and lunacy go even deeper. Jacqueline Battalora, professor of sociology and criminal justice at Saint Xavier University, informed conference participants that "white people did not exist before 1681. Again, white people did not exist on planet earth until 1681" (Chilling Video Shows Second Graders Parroting Lines About White Privilege). That's truly incredible. If Professor Battalora is correct, how are we to identify William Shakespeare (1564), Sir Isaac Newton (1642), John Locke (1632), Leonardo da Vinci (1452) and especially dear Plato (428 B.C.)? Were these men people of color, or did they not exist?

John A. Powell, a University of California, Berkeley law professor, told his audience, "And right now, I'm going to suggest to you that race is driving almost everything that's happening in the country." He explained the Hurricane Katrina disaster in New Orleans by saying, "They took money away from protecting the levees because the levees were protecting black people."

Stephanie Baran's message to conference participants was that capitalism is the cause of racism in the world today. This adjunct professor at Kankakee Community College, who calls herself a vulgar Marxist, added that racism was invented in Colonial America by white capitalists as a tool to divide labor and keep the working class in their place.

Educator Paul Kivel explained what he sees as Christian hegemony, saying, "Very simply, I define it as the everyday pervasive, deep-seated and institutionalized dominance of Christian values, Christian institutions, leaders and Christians as a group, primarily for the benefit of Christian ruling elites."

Speaker Leonard Zeskind — according to the MacIver Institute, which covered the event — explained that "the longer you are in the tea party the more racist you become." He added, "Parents put their kids in private schools because they're racist."

University of Iowa Professor Adrien Wing gave some of her observations about white privilege, asking, "Does having a black president change that? Has it changed that? Unfortunately, it hasn't. ... (President Obama) ends up being the front man for the system. ... He works for the master of the system of white privilege."

I can't imagine people being stupid enough to believe all that was said at the White Privilege Conference. There's something else at work. I think it's white guilt. That's why, for almost three decades, there has appeared on my website a certificate of amnesty and pardon that I've granted to Americans of European ancestry in the hope that they stop feeling guilty and stop acting like fools .​

White Privilege by Walter E.Williams

White Privilege is a lie designed to give cover to anti-white discrimination and racism.

I would have to think about that one for a bit I think. For sure white privilege is used, among other things, to justify anti-white discrimination but I am not convinced it was created for that purpose.

 

[Andylusion]

I've never understood the concept. I would understand wealth privilege. Inherently, if my parents are hard working, and thus have a middle, or upper class life style, generally kids learn from their parents how to live.

I would also understand moral privilege. People who have morals, and raise their kids with morals and work ethic tend to do better.

But tying it to being 'white' is insane. It's not logical by any rationale. First, Asians routinely and consistently earn more than Caucasians.

They also have the least chance of being shot, relative to their population, than any other sub-group, including Caucasians.

How does the "white privilege" crowd account for this Asian privilege? Are all the police and businesses, racists against whites, in favor of Asians?

Of course the answer is actually very simple. Asians have moral privilege. The reasons they are shot less than any other group, is very simply because they have the least involvement in violent crime, or crime in general... .even less than whites.

They also have wealth privilege. Asian parents are hard working. And their kids are guided to get useful degrees, in high paying fields. You don't see many Asians with "Art History" or "Music Therapy" degrees.

An Asian couple came here from Laos. Didn't know English. Learned the language, and at the same time, went to school to be CNC Programmers. Both got jobs earning over $50,000, and between the two of them pulled $100,000 a year. Asians..... Seriously. Did you miss the "white privilege" memo? You can't come here, not have formal education, not have a college degree, and make 6-figure incomes.

Another key aspect of Asians, that is true even to this day, is that Asian tend to get married and stay married. Again, morals. Morals equals wealth. Lastly, Asians are generally big savers, and tend to be frugal.

Obviously these are generally true, and there are always exceptions.

But if you believe in so-called "White Privilege", you would have to explain not only the Asian question, but also, why are there poor white people? Explain me for example. I grew up in an upper middle class family. My parents are millionaires. I'm 39 years old. And last year, I had a record breaking income of $23,000.

Where is my white privilege? Why haven't I gotten any breaks? Where's my glorious easy middle class income? Why is my privilege, to work in a hot sweaty, warehouse, lifting 50 lbs laser printers off skids to test them? Don't get me wrong. I have the job that I am capable of doing, and earning what I deserve for it.

But to claim I have some magical white privilege? I wish! Man, I wish I could earn some real money just for being white. Where is this money hiding?

I was just talking with a co-worker from India. He got basic schooling in India, came to the US, got a degree in computer programming. He was working where I was, just as a back up job. His main job, was $80,000 a year.... in addition to this other job. He's 24, and owns a house in India outright, free and clear. No loans. Now he's buying a house in the US, outright free and clear. No loan. He already owns a car, $30,000 sports car, free and clear. No loan. He has thousands in the bank. His wife is finishing her degree, and she'll be getting a job.

This guy is going to easily have a net worth of half a million by the time he's 25. How? Did he miss the white privilege memo?

No, he has moral privilege. Follows the laws. Has an intact family. Was taught right from wrong. He has wealth privilege, in that his parents taught him to work, and he's working two jobs full time.

The entire white privilege, I'm absolutely convinced, is just an excuse for lazy immoral stupid people, to avoid responsibility for their own actions. That's all there is to it.

Excellent post. Maybe not always laziness as much as choosing a victim mentality over self determination.

You do realize that it is politically incorrect to suggest that the choices we make, the kind of family lives we develop, the goals we set, the ethics we employ, and the goals we set for ourselves are far more important in the life we enjoy than is skin color or any other attributes over which we have no control.

You are spot on re the Asians as I have known several different individuals and families who arrived in the USA with little cash, minimal education, and no English to speak of. But every one of them overcame those handicaps mostly on their own and became prosperous. It is a different mindset.

I would argue it is laziness. Laziness isn't always a lack of effort. Effort into the useless, is just as lazy.

I have a living example of this case and point, right now. We have these two air-head employees. These guys could easily be the most wealthy guys in the building, if they put 1/15th the amount of effort into their careers, as they do into their Role Playing Games. Literally they place their phones on the desk while working, and listen to podcasts on how to get extra experience points, doing whatever stupid thing, in a game.

While I'm working, I hear them "Oh quick! Write that down! If you get the sword of destruction and combine it with the stick of doom, you get 40 million xp!"

Meanwhile, they are some of the most lazy people. They do just enough work, to not get fired. Just enough to avoid problems. The quintessential C- Student turned employee.

And you think well it's obviously why these two are 40 years old and working $11/hour jobs.

They are lazy. Similarly, it is intellectual laziness, to instead of trying to determine how to improve your life, and to use your intellect to figure out what you are doing wrong to hold you back, you just blame "racism", that's being lazy.

It takes no thought, no effort, and not time, to just excuse yourself from everything in life and blame 'racism'. It is being lazy.

 

[Foxfyre]

I've never understood the concept. I would understand wealth privilege. Inherently, if my parents are hard working, and thus have a middle, or upper class life style, generally kids learn from their parents how to live.

I would also understand moral privilege. People who have morals, and raise their kids with morals and work ethic tend to do better.

But tying it to being 'white' is insane. It's not logical by any rationale. First, Asians routinely and consistently earn more than Caucasians.

They also have the least chance of being shot, relative to their population, than any other sub-group, including Caucasians.

How does the "white privilege" crowd account for this Asian privilege? Are all the police and businesses, racists against whites, in favor of Asians?

Of course the answer is actually very simple. Asians have moral privilege. The reasons they are shot less than any other group, is very simply because they have the least involvement in violent crime, or crime in general... .even less than whites.

They also have wealth privilege. Asian parents are hard working. And their kids are guided to get useful degrees, in high paying fields. You don't see many Asians with "Art History" or "Music Therapy" degrees.

An Asian couple came here from Laos. Didn't know English. Learned the language, and at the same time, went to school to be CNC Programmers. Both got jobs earning over $50,000, and between the two of them pulled $100,000 a year. Asians..... Seriously. Did you miss the "white privilege" memo? You can't come here, not have formal education, not have a college degree, and make 6-figure incomes.

Another key aspect of Asians, that is true even to this day, is that Asian tend to get married and stay married. Again, morals. Morals equals wealth. Lastly, Asians are generally big savers, and tend to be frugal.

Obviously these are generally true, and there are always exceptions.

But if you believe in so-called "White Privilege", you would have to explain not only the Asian question, but also, why are there poor white people? Explain me for example. I grew up in an upper middle class family. My parents are millionaires. I'm 39 years old. And last year, I had a record breaking income of $23,000.

Where is my white privilege? Why haven't I gotten any breaks? Where's my glorious easy middle class income? Why is my privilege, to work in a hot sweaty, warehouse, lifting 50 lbs laser printers off skids to test them? Don't get me wrong. I have the job that I am capable of doing, and earning what I deserve for it.

But to claim I have some magical white privilege? I wish! Man, I wish I could earn some real money just for being white. Where is this money hiding?

I was just talking with a co-worker from India. He got basic schooling in India, came to the US, got a degree in computer programming. He was working where I was, just as a back up job. His main job, was $80,000 a year.... in addition to this other job. He's 24, and owns a house in India outright, free and clear. No loans. Now he's buying a house in the US, outright free and clear. No loan. He already owns a car, $30,000 sports car, free and clear. No loan. He has thousands in the bank. His wife is finishing her degree, and she'll be getting a job.

This guy is going to easily have a net worth of half a million by the time he's 25. How? Did he miss the white privilege memo?

No, he has moral privilege. Follows the laws. Has an intact family. Was taught right from wrong. He has wealth privilege, in that his parents taught him to work, and he's working two jobs full time.

The entire white privilege, I'm absolutely convinced, is just an excuse for lazy immoral stupid people, to avoid responsibility for their own actions. That's all there is to it.

Excellent post. Maybe not always laziness as much as choosing a victim mentality over self determination.

You do realize that it is politically incorrect to suggest that the choices we make, the kind of family lives we develop, the goals we set, the ethics we employ, and the goals we set for ourselves are far more important in the life we enjoy than is skin color or any other attributes over which we have no control.

You are spot on re the Asians as I have known several different individuals and families who arrived in the USA with little cash, minimal education, and no English to speak of. But every one of them overcame those handicaps mostly on their own and became prosperous. It is a different mindset.

I would argue it is laziness. Laziness isn't always a lack of effort. Effort into the useless, is just as lazy.

I have a living example of this case and point, right now. We have these two air-head employees. These guys could easily be the most wealthy guys in the building, if they put 1/15th the amount of effort into their careers, as they do into their Role Playing Games. Literally they place their phones on the desk while working, and listen to podcasts on how to get extra experience points, doing whatever stupid thing, in a game.

While I'm working, I hear them "Oh quick! Write that down! If you get the sword of destruction and combine it with the stick of doom, you get 40 million xp!"

Meanwhile, they are some of the most lazy people. They do just enough work, to not get fired. Just enough to avoid problems. The quintessential C- Student turned employee.

And you think well it's obviously why these two are 40 years old and working $11/hour jobs.

They are lazy. Similarly, it is intellectual laziness, to instead of trying to determine how to improve your life, and to use your intellect to figure out what you are doing wrong to hold you back, you just blame "racism", that's being lazy.

It takes no thought, no effort, and not time, to just excuse yourself from everything in life and blame 'racism'. It is being lazy.

But the laziness you describe has absolutely nothing to do with either white privilege or the color of skin or racism - EXCEPT - if fear of discrimination or some other legal action is in play and keep the bosses from dealing with the theft of the employer's wages. It is one thing if we complete our work early or are waiting for something to do and use the time to do something personal. It is quite another if we are welching on our 'contract' with the employer to give honest effort for an agreed wage.

But you're right, the work ethic you describe is why so many people are paid more poorly than others who do not steal from their employers.

 

[Asclepias]

NOTE: This thread is in the Structured Debate Forum.

John H. McWhorter PhD offers an interesting perspective on race in a recent essay. The inspiration for his thoughts were apparently triggered by students being required to attend "White Privilege 101" classes. His response to that is "Why, and for whose benefit?"

The concept he expresses raises the question of who is benefited when the conversation focuses on identification with race rather the means by which racism is eliminated or diminished.

Excerpted from the essay--pay special attention to the third paragraph cited here:

. . .If you’ve been white lately, you have likely been confronted with the idea that to be a good person, you must cultivate a guilt complex over the privileged status your race enjoys.

It isn’t that you are doing, or even quite thinking, anything racist. Rather, your existential state of Living While White constitutes a form of racism in itself. Your understanding will serve as a tool … for something. But be careful about asking just what that something is, because that will mean you “just don’t get it.”

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .​

And later in the essay he comments:

. . . the idea is not to teach white people that White Privilege means that black people are the only group of people in human history who cannot deal with obstacles and challenges. If the idea is that black people cannot solve their problems short of white people developing an exquisite sensitivity to how privileged they are, then we in the black community are being designated as disabled poster children. . . .​

And he further notes that these days, a white person accused of being racist is somewhere on a par with being designated as a pedophile.

The whole essay is here: The Privilege of Checking White Privilege - The Daily Beast

THE RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. Stay on topic please. The topic is stated in the question to be answered below.

2. No ad hominem re other members or political parties or conservatives or liberals, etc. Focus on the comment posted and not the character or motive of the person posting it. Focus on the stated position of a political party if pertinent to the topic and not on the character or motive of the political party itself.

3. References, reasonable excerpts of, and links to other stated opinions are allowed but will not be required for this discussion. If used, put the basic concept of the linked material into your own words also and explain how it relates to the concept of 'white privilege'.

THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED IN THIS DISCUSSION:

Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism as McWhorter describes it help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

I guess in some related way it may help Black people but other than waking up some whites I dont see how it helps or hurts Black people. Black people dont need whites to feel guilty about anything. I guess it would keep animosity down if whites admitted to reality instead of pretending everything is equal. I think the concept of a colorblind society is silly. I'm Black and there is no reason I would want or expect someone not to notice that.

 

[Asclepias]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Yes. And those of Irish and Chinese and Italian and Jewish and Japanese and Mexican et al ancestry all have really ugly histories at some time in their stories of life in America.

But the point is we now have non discrimination based on race laws on the books at the federal level and every state in the union. Affirmative Action laws were probably necessary for a short period to break down cultural barriers and allow black and white people to get used to living and working side by side. That is mostly accomplished now.

Segregation was a reality but it has been abolished. Nobody has to sit in the back of the bus or use a different drinking fountain because of who or what they are any more. Everybody has full access to all public facilities and all institutions of learning etc.

So isn't it time to demand a color blind society and really allow all people to be seen and treated equally? No more of the political correctness nonsense that tends to generate more hostility than it corrects? No more protected class stuff that does put black people at a disadvantage because it forces people to treat them as more fragile and vulnerable and even inferior and incapable of achievement on their own merit. Nobody deserves that.

So do you feel that while whites had 400 years of exclusive white affirmative action in which they were able to own all the resources in this country that Blacks and others should have less AA time?

 

[Asclepias]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Yes. And those of Irish and Chinese and Italian and Jewish and Japanese and Mexican et al ancestry all have really ugly histories at some time in their stories of life in America.

But the point is we now have non discrimination based on race laws on the books at the federal level and every state in the union. Affirmative Action laws were probably necessary for a short period to break down cultural barriers and allow black and white people to get used to living and working side by side. That is mostly accomplished now.

Segregation was a reality but it has been abolished. Nobody has to sit in the back of the bus or use a different drinking fountain because of who or what they are any more. Everybody has full access to all public facilities and all institutions of learning etc.

So isn't it time to demand a color blind society and really allow all people to be seen and treated equally? No more of the political correctness nonsense that tends to generate more hostility than it corrects? No more protected class stuff that does put black people at a disadvantage because it forces people to treat them as more fragile and vulnerable and even inferior and incapable of achievement on their own merit. Nobody deserves that.

I agree with most all of that, if not all completely. Though I do wonder why you left out black people from the list at the top -- they suffered the worst. And they've also suffered the worst whitewashing (no pun intended) of the history books about it. I think we've all been schooled in the "no Irish need apply" signs, the treatment of Chinese railroad workers, even to some extent that of Native Americans, but how may of us have been taught of the Red Summer of 1919 and all the race riots of that time? How many are aware that beginning in the aftermath of the Civil War black people were being regularly accosted, beaten, raped, hanged, burned alive, skinned, (skinned), dragged behind vehicles, cut into pieces sold as souvenirs, and that this went on for nearly a century? Our schoolbooks somehow find a way to leave all that out, the omission of which bestows on us a great distortion. And such distortions, even in their omission, influence our perspectives and thereby our judgment. Context is vital.

I agree with all you've posted here about affirmative action and segregation laws. But those are laws. We got over the legal part, yes. What we have yet to get past is the cultural part. That's what this question is today -- a cultural one. And without knowing -- and acknowledging -- that history, cultural development can't move forward. Because culture carries its own context. It has no choice but to carry it; it's part of what makes it culture.

I was about to add that examples of ignoring context in favor of deliberately and self-servingly muddying the waters of rational discussion would appear in this thread as exhibit A - but it's already here:

Racism and other things, are tools of the left to create hate and division in the country so that people look to the government for answers thus giving it more power to create more division and hate to get more power to create division and hate to get more......

I left black people off the list because it was black people that prompted the comments and because it is racism affecting black people that is the focus of this thread. Black people are unique in that they lived here during a period of slavery, and did suffer historically more than others in degree, but they were not the only people who have suffered mistreatment by society as a whole.

And now we have a choice--a choice implied in McWhorter's essay. We can continue to live in the past and hold it up as a justification for keeping the issue of racism alive and well now--which is exactly what race baiters and opportunists do--or we can breathe a deep sigh of relief that we have dealt with it, eliminated it as an institutional policy, and opened the doorway to achieve true equal opportunity for all.

And the basis of the OP is that we don't allow people equal opportunity if we continue to keep the focus on racism which in turn suggests black people are more needy, fragile, damaged, incapable than everybody else, most especially when that is blamed on anybody who is white.

That seems like rationalization whites take on when they are against Blacks ,making more advances due to AA. It has nothing to do with being fragile. Its about providing equal opportunity. Whites had centuries of exclusive white affrimative action. Why do you not consider whites fragile and needy for having more AA than Blacks?

 

[320 Years of History]

feel guilty about anything.

Guilt is not a productively positive emotion.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Yes. And those of Irish and Chinese and Italian and Jewish and Japanese and Mexican et al ancestry all have really ugly histories at some time in their stories of life in America.

But the point is we now have non discrimination based on race laws on the books at the federal level and every state in the union. Affirmative Action laws were probably necessary for a short period to break down cultural barriers and allow black and white people to get used to living and working side by side. That is mostly accomplished now.

Segregation was a reality but it has been abolished. Nobody has to sit in the back of the bus or use a different drinking fountain because of who or what they are any more. Everybody has full access to all public facilities and all institutions of learning etc.

So isn't it time to demand a color blind society and really allow all people to be seen and treated equally? No more of the political correctness nonsense that tends to generate more hostility than it corrects? No more protected class stuff that does put black people at a disadvantage because it forces people to treat them as more fragile and vulnerable and even inferior and incapable of achievement on their own merit. Nobody deserves that.

So do you feel that while whites had 400 years of exclusive white affirmative action in which they were able to own all the resources in this country that Blacks and others should have less AA time?

I think you will find that the resources change hands pretty steadily. Thomas Jefferson's concern that a few of the wealthy elite families would own all the property in the United States if inheritance laws were not somewhat restrictive on that proved to be unfounded. There is no money to be made from that and those fears never materialized. If anything, the government itself is the only entity that grabs and holds resources in excess.

And both Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell have researched and mostly agree with McWhorter re the black people's situation in America and both agree that black people, with segregation still in place in most places and without any significant government help, were pretty much the most rapidly advancing group in the years leading up to and shortly after the so called Great Society initiatives. So what happened to stall that progress? In their opinion it was both black and white opportunistswho stepped in to make racism big business. The instilled the sense that a person was black first and foremost and everything takes a back seat to that.

. . .As of 1940, 87 percent of black families lived below the official poverty line. This fell to 47 percent by 1960, without any major federal legislation on civil rights and before the rise and expansion of the welfare state under the Great Society programs of President Lyndon Johnson.

This decline in the poverty rate among blacks continued during the 1960s, dropping from 47 percent to 30 percent. But even this continuation of a trend already begun long before cannot all be attributed automatically to the new government programs. Moreover, the first decade of affirmative action -- the 1970s -- ended with the poverty rate among black families at 29 percent. Even if that one percent decline was due to affirmative action, it was not much. . .​

Thomas Sowell

Sowell's commentary on the Dunbar school in that same essay is enlightening.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Yes. And those of Irish and Chinese and Italian and Jewish and Japanese and Mexican et al ancestry all have really ugly histories at some time in their stories of life in America.

But the point is we now have non discrimination based on race laws on the books at the federal level and every state in the union. Affirmative Action laws were probably necessary for a short period to break down cultural barriers and allow black and white people to get used to living and working side by side. That is mostly accomplished now.

Segregation was a reality but it has been abolished. Nobody has to sit in the back of the bus or use a different drinking fountain because of who or what they are any more. Everybody has full access to all public facilities and all institutions of learning etc.

So isn't it time to demand a color blind society and really allow all people to be seen and treated equally? No more of the political correctness nonsense that tends to generate more hostility than it corrects? No more protected class stuff that does put black people at a disadvantage because it forces people to treat them as more fragile and vulnerable and even inferior and incapable of achievement on their own merit. Nobody deserves that.

I agree with most all of that, if not all completely. Though I do wonder why you left out black people from the list at the top -- they suffered the worst. And they've also suffered the worst whitewashing (no pun intended) of the history books about it. I think we've all been schooled in the "no Irish need apply" signs, the treatment of Chinese railroad workers, even to some extent that of Native Americans, but how may of us have been taught of the Red Summer of 1919 and all the race riots of that time? How many are aware that beginning in the aftermath of the Civil War black people were being regularly accosted, beaten, raped, hanged, burned alive, skinned, (skinned), dragged behind vehicles, cut into pieces sold as souvenirs, and that this went on for nearly a century? Our schoolbooks somehow find a way to leave all that out, the omission of which bestows on us a great distortion. And such distortions, even in their omission, influence our perspectives and thereby our judgment. Context is vital.

I agree with all you've posted here about affirmative action and segregation laws. But those are laws. We got over the legal part, yes. What we have yet to get past is the cultural part. That's what this question is today -- a cultural one. And without knowing -- and acknowledging -- that history, cultural development can't move forward. Because culture carries its own context. It has no choice but to carry it; it's part of what makes it culture.

I was about to add that examples of ignoring context in favor of deliberately and self-servingly muddying the waters of rational discussion would appear in this thread as exhibit A - but it's already here:

Racism and other things, are tools of the left to create hate and division in the country so that people look to the government for answers thus giving it more power to create more division and hate to get more power to create division and hate to get more......

I left black people off the list because it was black people that prompted the comments and because it is racism affecting black people that is the focus of this thread. Black people are unique in that they lived here during a period of slavery, and did suffer historically more than others in degree, but they were not the only people who have suffered mistreatment by society as a whole.

And now we have a choice--a choice implied in McWhorter's essay. We can continue to live in the past and hold it up as a justification for keeping the issue of racism alive and well now--which is exactly what race baiters and opportunists do--or we can breathe a deep sigh of relief that we have dealt with it, eliminated it as an institutional policy, and opened the doorway to achieve true equal opportunity for all.

And the basis of the OP is that we don't allow people equal opportunity if we continue to keep the focus on racism which in turn suggests black people are more needy, fragile, damaged, incapable than everybody else, most especially when that is blamed on anybody who is white.

That seems like rationalization whites take on when they are against Blacks ,making more advances due to AA. It has nothing to do with being fragile. Its about providing equal opportunity. Whites had centuries of exclusive white affrimative action. Why do you not consider whites fragile and needy for having more AA than Blacks?

Sorry but I have looked into the eyes of my gifted and capable black friend when I looked into her eyes and saw the hurt there. She had been made aware that her colleagues, though they were friendly with her, viewed her as the 'token Negro' and she got her job becaise of affirmative action and not because she merited it.

I agree that Affirmative Action was necessary to open doors for black people when segregation ended. There were cultural barriers in place that resisted mixing black and white. But once those cultural barriers came down and whits and black people were used to working alongside each other and it was no longer odd or unusual--that took about ten years--Affirmative Action should have ended. By the mid to late 1970's and 1980's, I think it was a more harmful thing to black people than helpful.