Why are we so afraid to admit the obvious?

[Olde Europe]

Then we linked our economy to the Wall Street Casino, where great companies like Sears got destroyed by speculation and greed. This is a good in your world? I don't think so.

Is that actually something "we" did? For I think that 99.95 percent of the population had nothing to do with that.

That, the financialization of the industry, is a long story, which began in earnest with Reagan, basically the project to eliminate workers from the income distribution as much as possible, while enabling the plutocrats to make money out of money. That is why 40% of corporate earnings in the U.S. of A. go to financial institutions, when a healthy proportion should be an order of magnitude smaller. That entailed that Republicans, who drove the development, had nothing to offer the vast majority of people, and thus they settled ever more for the Southern Strategy of peddling and exploiting grievances, resentments, and hate, while also seeing to it that white males in non-supervisory positions didn't get a raise, in real terms, since the late 1970s. So, from Atwater to Reagan to the Trumpy runs a straight line of sowing hatred, exploiting fears and grievances, and that shall not, under any circumstances, be talked about. Never, ever. And that's also why we see our righty friends squealing, screaming, and in spluttering apoplexy whenever their racism is being pointed out.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I was gonna ask what's with all the we stuff.

 

[JoeB131]

I was gonna ask what's with all the we stuff.

You can ask, but the point is, we all went along with it, and neither party is really asking to change it...

because everyone got fooled into thinking they could play the markets.

 

[Olde Europe]

Never have I used the term "exact same" or anything approaching that, yet I've been accused of it a thousand times. At least the intellectual dishonesty of this place remains consistent.

The point is that, with hate flowing out of both ends like water from a fire hose, we're not going to begin to go in a positive direction until both ends stop pointing the finger at the other and start holding their own side accountable for its words and actions.

But, because that would take far too much effort (beating on something with a stick is far easier than doing some heavy lifting), and because tribe members are terrified of challenging their own tribe, I'm not holding my breath. We simply no longer have the capacity.
.

Let's not get into petty quibbling. Let's also try to keep things in perspective, because if we don't, we sure are just part of the development you describe above, quite ably.

Yes, no doubt, the camp mentality doesn't quite allow for policing one's own camp, and we really should. You are by and large right on that, with what I think is an important qualification: Waters was taken to task by scores of Democrats, they had a meeting reading her the riot act, and she came out of it clarifying that her call to confront cabinet members did by no means imply a call for violence. Now, compare that to Republican efforts to reign the Trumpy in. See what I mean?

The point I am trying to impress upon you is, differences matter, and you are rendering judgment questioning whether they do. Intellectual integrity demands that they must.

Democrats have the door closed to, and unanimously condemn, Antifa. Right-wingers purposely leave open the door for the alt-right, White supremacists, and Nazis.

When President Obama released a DHS report on right-wing violence, Republicans (McConnell et. al.) insisted the report be scrapped, which it was. When, half a year or so later the DHS released a report on left-wing violence, nothing of that kind happened. That's because one side strives on hatred and resentments, which generates violence, and the other side doesn't.

Differences matter.

 

[Mac1958]

Never have I used the term "exact same" or anything approaching that, yet I've been accused of it a thousand times. At least the intellectual dishonesty of this place remains consistent.

The point is that, with hate flowing out of both ends like water from a fire hose, we're not going to begin to go in a positive direction until both ends stop pointing the finger at the other and start holding their own side accountable for its words and actions.

But, because that would take far too much effort (beating on something with a stick is far easier than doing some heavy lifting), and because tribe members are terrified of challenging their own tribe, I'm not holding my breath. We simply no longer have the capacity.
.

Let's not get into petty quibbling. Let's also try to keep things in perspective, because if we don't, we sure are just part of the development you describe above, quite ably.

Yes, no doubt, the camp mentality doesn't quite allow for policing one's own camp, and we really should. You are by and large right on that, with what I think is an important qualification: Waters was taken to task by scores of Democrats, they had a meeting reading her the riot act, and she came out of it clarifying that her call to confront cabinet members did by no means imply a call for violence. Now, compare that to Republican efforts to reign the Trumpy in. See what I mean?

The point I am trying to impress upon you is, differences matter, and you are rendering judgment questioning whether they do. Intellectual integrity demands that they must.

Democrats have the door closed to, and unanimously condemn, Antifa. Right-wingers purposely leave open the door for the alt-right, White supremacists, and Nazis.

When President Obama released a DHS report on right-wing violence, Republicans (McConnell et. al.) insisted the report be scrapped, which it was. When, half a year or so later the DHS released a report on left-wing violence, nothing of that kind happened. That's because one side strives on hatred and resentments, which generates violence, and the other side doesn't.

Differences matter.

Now I can see where you're coming from politically, to which tribe you belong.

Okay, thanks for the input.
.

 

[Olde Europe]

Now I can see where you're coming from politically, to which tribe you belong.

Okay, thanks for the input.
.

... and I had so hoped for an argument, and, perhaps, an acknowledgment of facts, and real-world differences. Alas...

You know, I have a long history of taking my own camp to task for what I perceived as transgressions, while never even trying to hide to be part of a camp. So, however, are you, and ever in danger to ascribe all the good to your own tribe (it may well be a tribe of one), while implicitly ascribing all the bad to any other tribe, so much so that accusing someone of being a member of a tribe is "argument" enough. It isn't.

Rather, I hold, BothSidesIsm is a kind of intellectual failing that is as damaging as the tribalism of the tribes, because it requires relevant parts of reality to remain unseen, and unacknowledged. It all results in distorted depictions of reality, lack of nuance, and invalid judgments.

 

[Mac1958]

Now I can see where you're coming from politically, to which tribe you belong.

Okay, thanks for the input.
.

... and I had so hoped for an argument, and, perhaps, an acknowledgment of facts, and real-world differences. Alas...

You know, I have a long history of taking my own camp to task for what I perceived as transgressions, while never even trying to hide to be part of a camp. So, however, are you, and ever in danger to ascribe all the good to your own tribe (it may well be a tribe of one), while implicitly ascribing all the bad to any other tribe, so much so that accusing someone of being a member of a tribe is "argument" enough. It isn't.

Rather, I hold, BothSidesIsm is a kind of intellectual failing that is as damaging as the tribalism of the tribes, because it requires relevant parts of reality to remain unseen, and unacknowledged. It all results in distorted depictions of reality, lack of nuance, and invalid judgments.

Yes, I get this kind of response from both tribes regularly.

The tribes' biggest challenge doesn't come from the other tribe; picking apart lies and hypocrisy is easy. The biggest challenge comes from those of us who choose to think for ourselves, because by doing so, we expose the tribes for what they are.
.

 

[bripat9643]

In other words, you don't give a damn about rights or principles. You only care whether your group wins and the other group loses. That's the way to have a just society.

Okay, let's look at that.

In a just society, the reason why there is a GM is because hard working folks for generations showed up and built cars. There used to be a time when the Auto Industry understood workers were their business. "If my workers can't afford my products, I don't have a business" said Henry Ford. And for most of the 20th Century, both parties put working folks ahead of investors.

Then we linked our economy to the Wall Street Casino, where great companies like Sears got destroyed by speculation and greed. This is a good in your world? I don't think so.

GM's workers bankrupted the country, moron. Talk about "speculation and greed." Who's more greedy than you typical fat union slob?

 

[Olde Europe]

The biggest challenge comes from those of us who choose to think for ourselves, because by doing so, we expose the tribes for what they are.
.

So, we have a proud member of the "(claim to) think for ourselves" tribe, describing the members of any other camp, decried as "tribe", collectively as not thinking for themselves. Generously put, that's tribalism 1.1., at best.

 

[Mac1958]

The biggest challenge comes from those of us who choose to think for ourselves, because by doing so, we expose the tribes for what they are.
.

So, we have a proud member of the "(claim to) think for ourselves" tribe, describing the members of any other camp, decried as "tribe", collectively as not thinking for themselves. Generously put, that's tribalism 1.1., at best.

Sounds good, thanks.
.

 

[Olde Europe]

The biggest challenge comes from those of us who choose to think for ourselves, because by doing so, we expose the tribes for what they are.
.

So, we have a proud member of the "(claim to) think for ourselves" tribe, describing the members of any other camp, decried as "tribe", collectively as not thinking for themselves. Generously put, that's tribalism 1.1., at best.

Sounds good, thanks.
.

You're welcome. Oh, and, don't ever stop thinking for yourself, for that, while rare, is what makes this place, if not worthwhile, at least bearable.

 

[boedicca]

Not nearly as bad nor as HYUGE as all of the health care premium increases that transfer money from taxpayers to government dependents via ObabbleCare.

Yes, we know you are horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care... but it's actually cheaper than having them show up at emergency rooms.

Incorrect. I'm horrified by the idea of today's babies being burdened by massive taxes and government debt to support other people before being able to take care of their own children.

Furthermore, I'm horrified by the massive government interference in our economy and civil society which has turned so many people into government dependents instead of self-sufficient and self-respecting productive individuals.

 

[buckeye45_73]

much worse than what?

Than a typical bankruptcy, and worse than other bankrupticies of other casinos. Trump's bankrupticies transferred his losses to the local people and the municipalities. You should read up on it.

so you have a hierarchy on bankruptcies? I mean you made the claim, give us a link to check out.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, I get this kind of response from both tribes regularly.

The tribes' biggest challenge doesn't come from the other tribe; picking apart lies and hypocrisy is easy. The biggest challenge comes from those of us who choose to think for ourselves, because by doing so, we expose the tribes for what they are.

Naw, Stormy Mac, you got voted out of the Tribe a long time ago.

 

[JoeB131]

Incorrect. I'm horrified by the idea of today's babies being burdened by massive taxes and government debt to support other people before being able to take care of their own children.

Furthermore, I'm horrified by the massive government interference in our economy and civil society which has turned so many people into government dependents instead of self-sufficient and self-respecting productive individuals.

Hey, Dummy, if we had single payer, we'd spend LESS on health care. Get rid of the payouts to investors, the big salaries to CEO's and the ten people who file paperwork in every doctor's office, and we'd have affordable health care.

The problem with the ACA was that it trusted Big Insurance to behave itself.

 

[theHawk]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

No, you aren’t a responsible adult. You’re a left winger.

 

[ptbw forever]

Then we linked our economy to the Wall Street Casino, where great companies like Sears got destroyed by speculation and greed. This is a good in your world? I don't think so.

Is that actually something "we" did? For I think that 99.95 percent of the population had nothing to do with that.

That, the financialization of the industry, is a long story, which began in earnest with Reagan, basically the project to eliminate workers from the income distribution as much as possible, while enabling the plutocrats to make money out of money. That is why 40% of corporate earnings in the U.S. of A. go to financial institutions, when a healthy proportion should be an order of magnitude smaller. That entailed that Republicans, who drove the development, had nothing to offer the vast majority of people, and thus they settled ever more for the Southern Strategy of peddling and exploiting grievances, resentments, and hate, while also seeing to it that white males in non-supervisory positions didn't get a raise, in real terms, since the late 1970s. So, from Atwater to Reagan to the Trumpy runs a straight line of sowing hatred, exploiting fears and grievances, and that shall not, under any circumstances, be talked about. Never, ever. And that's also why we see our righty friends squealing, screaming, and in spluttering apoplexy whenever their racism is being pointed out.

You should be happy that white males are being screwed over, that is what YOUR party wants.

Let’s see you disown the racists in your party and see how many thousands of voters you have left nationwide.

 

[ptbw forever]

Never have I used the term "exact same" or anything approaching that, yet I've been accused of it a thousand times. At least the intellectual dishonesty of this place remains consistent.

The point is that, with hate flowing out of both ends like water from a fire hose, we're not going to begin to go in a positive direction until both ends stop pointing the finger at the other and start holding their own side accountable for its words and actions.

But, because that would take far too much effort (beating on something with a stick is far easier than doing some heavy lifting), I'm not holding my breath.

He claims both sides aren't equal and then says they are both equal. Too sweet.

Sorry, there's only one side that has embraced Nazis, called them good people and put small children in concentration camps, Stormy Mac. It's the side you keep making excuses for.

The New Black Panther Party are Nazis and they are showing up campaigning for Abrams, I guess that means Democrats are Nazis.

 

[boedicca]

Incorrect. I'm horrified by the idea of today's babies being burdened by massive taxes and government debt to support other people before being able to take care of their own children.

Furthermore, I'm horrified by the massive government interference in our economy and civil society which has turned so many people into government dependents instead of self-sufficient and self-respecting productive individuals.

Hey, Dummy, if we had single payer, we'd spend LESS on health care. Get rid of the payouts to investors, the big salaries to CEO's and the ten people who file paperwork in every doctor's office, and we'd have affordable health care.

The problem with the ACA was that it trusted Big Insurance to behave itself.

No, Silly Wabbit. If we had single payer, we'd have fully rationed government health care. We might pay less (doubtful), but we'd certainly not get health care. We'd get the equivalent of a long wait in the DMV line hoping our number gets called before we die of a fatal disease.

 

[JoeB131]

The New Black Panther Party are Nazis and they are showing up campaigning for Abrams, I guess that means Democrats are Nazis.

Um, the New Black Panthers are bad performance art... I think they have like 5 members...

But you keep watching that Fox News, they'll tell you what to be scared of while the One Percent rips you off.