Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Dr Grump]

Hhhmmm, whole lot of posts gone....

 

[Zoom-boing]

bOING

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Hhhmmm, whole lot of posts gone....

There's probably a couple of hundered posts missing from this thread since I left it about 12 hours ago. Does anyone know what happened to them?

 

[AllieBaba]

I think they went towards the light.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

I've still not gotten a decent answer for my simple question to pro-abortionists/pro-choicers:

If there's a chance you could be wrong about babies being alive...why chance it?

Cuz it's a loaded question.


We've made the assessment that we don't find it to be a living baby until a certain point, so you're asking a question with an assessment that we don't agree with.


If you know it's not a living baby..........why not have an early abortion if you want?

That's not an actual question, just giving you a comparison to what you're asking, as you and the pro-life crowd have made the assessment that it is a living baby.

I have a slight case of déjà vu after going back in time on this thread but I wanted to regain my train of thought on how this argument was developing by responding to some of these posts once again.

Anyway, here’s my test to find out whether these babies (not my word) are alive: Simply trace back the thread of your own life to the earliest point when you could have been killed. Since you can’t kill something that is not alive to begin with, this test will reveal when you first became alive.

And it seems fairly obvious that point in time came as soon as you were created (not in the biblical sense).

This test works if you are honest about it. Indeed, it actually helped flipped me from pro-choice to pro-life.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

I am honest, the spirit enters the body when it is being born, my God would not allow the murder of innocent children. And being honest again, when they sucked out that little bit of tissue in my womb, I felt great, life back on track, everything was good. How dare you take stabs at recovering individuals. I guess your motto would be "kick them while their down". Seems to me you're just being nosey and playing "God". To me people like you screw the issue around in order to insult others. I don't like people like you.

This post is much to religious for me to bother with but, if you care to present your civil rights views on this issue, I will do my best to try and counter them.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

Wrong. All people have a right to have an opinion about the ending prematurely of a human life. I will grant that currently it is totally legal to do so. But that does not change the basic facts. A human life was ended prematurely by design of another Human.

I and others find that unacceptable and believe it should not be legal to simply kill another human because it may be inconvenient to the mother of the child. Technically it is not homicide since that definition includes that the act is illegal. It is murder though. Just legal murder.

It is not a human "being", which means a viable personage, with rights and consideration afforded human beings until it is born. A fetus doesn't have a right to life. A baby does. Morons.

Hence the need for the Pro Life Movement.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

So tell me, how can you sleep at night knowing you are completely fabricating a story in order to justify legalized slaughter of our most vulnerable population? Doesn't it give you pause when you dismiss the evidence which points to the polar opposite of what you claim? Do you dismiss all evidence in other areas of your life, if the facts don't jibe with your world view? How can a person live that way?

At the end of the day, you see these foetus's as human being, while others don't. That's the bottom line. I consider the US part of the civilised world, yet they are the only country in that spectrum that has this debate. The rest of us have moved on, albeit with a very small minority in most countries objecting to abortions.

The reason the US is on a different plain to the rest of us is due mainly to the religious zealotry of the Fundie Christians. I'm not saying that all people who are anti abortion are Christians, or even fundie Christians, but the vast majority are. And once you start with that argument - and you do fit that bill Allie - then you lose. Keep your religious beliefs out of other peoples' business.

Yup, and a lot of us would like you to do the same. So, please, leave your religious beliefs (and your beliefs about religious people) out of this argument. It gets us nowhere.

 

[grunt11b]

There should be no such thing as a Christian Democrat, being that the majority of Democrats support abortion, how in the hell can they call themselves Christians if they support the murder of innocent life? Maybe they are not really Christians, maybe they are posing as Christians but are really atheists like the Nazis who did not believe in a god, almost like our president posing as a christian when we all know he is not. They are all fake Americans, pretending to do the right thing, talking out of one side of their mouths while doing the opposite, and anyone who votes for them are damning their own children and grandchildren to a life of hardship paying for all the "Free stuff".
Now I am not saying 100% of Democrats support it, but some on here who vote Democrat and support it, how can you call yourselves a Christian, how can you go to church and fake the funk as a christian and live with yourself for voting these murderers into office to carry out the laws of the devil?
You yourself will be judged one day, you can bet your ass on it. The fires of hell are stoking extra hot waiting on your asses to get there, and you can bet your ass I will be sitting way up above you with a long enough stick with a hot-dog at the end of it and a beer in the other hand laughing my ass off.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Save your emotive hyperbole for the picket line and your local aboriton clinic.

I would suggest a couple of things: 1) In the case you cite, if the woman wanted the baby, then of course that has to be taken into consideration when a charge is being laid.

Oh so the woman wanted the baby? so if she didn't it makes the baby less human????

You fucking retarded or just evil?

Well, now we are getting into points of law and definitions, which is a whole different territory. Also, if she was only 4 weeks pregnant and perp didn't know she was pregnant, good luck on getting a conviction for murder....

If abortion were illegal, in many ways, the woman would also be a victim, so I think we would be looking at whether the abortionist knew she was pregnant when looking for a conviction?

 

[grunt11b]

Oh so the woman wanted the baby? so if she didn't it makes the baby less human????

You fucking retarded or just evil?

Well, now we are getting into points of law and definitions, which is a whole different territory. Also, if she was only 4 weeks pregnant and perp didn't know she was pregnant, good luck on getting a conviction for murder....

If abortion were illegal, in many ways, the woman would also be a victim, so I think we would be looking at whether the abortionist knew she was pregnant when looking for a conviction?

If she walked in on her own recognizance and hopped up on a table and spread her legs, does that still make her a victim?

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Well, now we are getting into points of law and definitions, which is a whole different territory. Also, if she was only 4 weeks pregnant and perp didn't know she was pregnant, good luck on getting a conviction for murder....

If abortion were illegal, in many ways, the woman would also be a victim, so I think we would be looking at whether the abortionist knew she was pregnant when looking for a conviction?

If she walked in on her own recognizance and hopped up on a table and spread her legs, does that still make her a victim?

If we are supposing abortion is illegal, and she was told it was okay to get the abortion (in the privacy of her consultation with the abortionist), yes, I think a very good argument can be made that she is also a victim.

 

[grunt11b]

If abortion were illegal, in many ways, the woman would also be a victim, so I think we would be looking at whether the abortionist knew she was pregnant when looking for a conviction?

If she walked in on her own recognizance and hopped up on a table and spread her legs, does that still make her a victim?

If we are supposing abortion is illegal, and she was told it was okay to get the abortion (in the privacy of her consultation with the abortionist), yes, I think a very good argument can be made that she is also a victim.

But abortion apparently is not illegal in any state because it happens everyday and is supported by most Democrats. So how is she a victim by willingly walking in and doing the devils deed? She is not a victim, if anyone is the victim it is the child because it's mother was too big of a piece of shit to take responsibility for spreading her legs, and there is no way you can justify what you are saying so knock it off already.
If a female was made to bear her child, she might feel an obligation to love and raise it, which would create a family environment and prosperity, and we all know that progressive liberals hate a family environment because it symbolizes liberty and free will without government intrusion, it basically lets families know "Hey, we love each other enough to weather any type of storm and as long as we have faith in god we can do this and not have to rely on government", and also "Because a child is seen as a gift from god" which we all know liberals dont believe in a god.
You go ahead and prepare for hell, that or let hell stoke the fires hot for you, either way your friends will be toasting to you while you stay there....for eternity.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

If she walked in on her own recognizance and hopped up on a table and spread her legs, does that still make her a victim?

If we are supposing abortion is illegal, and she was told it was okay to get the abortion (in the privacy of her consultation with the abortionist), yes, I think a very good argument can be made that she is also a victim.

But abortion apparently is not illegal in any state because it happens everyday and is supported by most Democrats. So how is she a victim by willingly walking in and doing the devils deed? She is not a victim, if anyone is the victim it is the child because it's mother was too big of a piece of shit to take responsibility for spreading her legs, and there is no way you can justify what you are saying so knock it off already.
If a female was made to bear her child, she might feel an obligation to love and raise it, which would create a family environment and prosperity, and we all know that progressive liberals hate a family environment because it symbolizes liberty and free will without government intrusion, it basically lets families know "Hey, we love each other enough to weather any type of storm and as long as we have faith in god we can do this and not have to rely on government", and also "Because a child is seen as a gift from god" which we all know liberals dont believe in a god.
You go ahead and prepare for hell, that or let hell stoke the fires hot for you, either way your friends will be toasting to you while you stay there....for eternity.

My reply to Grump’s remark about “Good luck on getting a conviction…” started with the phrase “If abortion were illegal,” so it was a hypothetical.

My point is, should abortion ever become illegal, it will the the abortionist breaking the law and not necessarily the woman seeking the abortion.

I say this because, if abortion ever does become illegal on grounds that it is the taking of a human life, it would be the person doing the actual killing who commits the crime.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I've still not gotten a decent answer for my simple question to pro-abortionists/pro-choicers:

If there's a chance you could be wrong about babies being alive...why chance it?

Cuz it's a loaded question.


We've made the assessment that we don't find it to be a living baby until a certain point, so you're asking a question with an assessment that we don't agree with.


If you know it's not a living baby..........why not have an early abortion if you want?

That's not an actual question, just giving you a comparison to what you're asking, as you and the pro-life crowd have made the assessment that it is a living baby.

I have a slight case of déjà vu after going back in time on this thread but I wanted to regain my train of thought on how this argument was developing by responding to some of these posts once again.

Anyway, here’s my test to find out whether these babies (not my word) are alive: Simply trace back the thread of your own life to the earliest point when you could have been killed. Since you can’t kill something that is not alive to begin with, this test will reveal when you first became alive.

And it seems fairly obvious that point in time came as soon as you were created (not in the biblical sense).

This test works if you are honest about it. Indeed, it actually helped flipped me from pro-choice to pro-life.

Humans BEGET humans. It doesn't 'become' a human being 'at some point'; it is a human being from the get go. Conception is the very, very beginning of the start of a human being. That's when they come into 'being'. That's when that individual human being's developmental journey starts. All the 'points' or 'milestones' it reaches are phases in that developmental journey but it isn't 'more' or 'less' a human being at any point -- it is a human being from the moment it is created (conception). The only difference between a 2 month old unborn fetus and a 2 month old born baby is that the born baby has traveled further along in the developemental journey to be able to live outside the womb.

 

[Dr Grump]

Oh so the woman wanted the baby? so if she didn't it makes the baby less human????

You fucking retarded or just evil?

Well, now we are getting into points of law and definitions, which is a whole different territory. Also, if she was only 4 weeks pregnant and perp didn't know she was pregnant, good luck on getting a conviction for murder....

If abortion were illegal...

But it's not, so your point is moot...

 

[Dr Grump]

If we are supposing abortion is illegal, and she was told it was okay to get the abortion (in the privacy of her consultation with the abortionist), yes, I think a very good argument can be made that she is also a victim.

But abortion apparently is not illegal in any state because it happens everyday and is supported by most Democrats. So how is she a victim by willingly walking in and doing the devils deed? She is not a victim, if anyone is the victim it is the child because it's mother was too big of a piece of shit to take responsibility for spreading her legs, and there is no way you can justify what you are saying so knock it off already.
If a female was made to bear her child, she might feel an obligation to love and raise it, which would create a family environment and prosperity, and we all know that progressive liberals hate a family environment because it symbolizes liberty and free will without government intrusion, it basically lets families know "Hey, we love each other enough to weather any type of storm and as long as we have faith in god we can do this and not have to rely on government", and also "Because a child is seen as a gift from god" which we all know liberals dont believe in a god.
You go ahead and prepare for hell, that or let hell stoke the fires hot for you, either way your friends will be toasting to you while you stay there....for eternity.

My reply to Grump’s remark about “Good luck on getting a conviction…” started with the phrase “If abortion were illegal,” so it was a hypothetical.

My point is, should abortion ever become illegal, it will the the abortionist breaking the law and not necessarily the woman seeking the abortion.

I say this because, if abortion ever does become illegal on grounds that it is the taking of a human life, it would be the person doing the actual killing who commits the crime.

In some places there is "being an accessory" which carries the same penalty..

That aside, abortion is not, nor ever should be, illegal....Bad choice to made IMO, but a choice nonetheless..

 

[Immanuel]

So tell me, how can you sleep at night knowing you are completely fabricating a story in order to justify legalized slaughter of our most vulnerable population? Doesn't it give you pause when you dismiss the evidence which points to the polar opposite of what you claim? Do you dismiss all evidence in other areas of your life, if the facts don't jibe with your world view? How can a person live that way?

At the end of the day, you see these foetus's as human being, while others don't. That's the bottom line. I consider the US part of the civilised world, yet they are the only country in that spectrum that has this debate. The rest of us have moved on, albeit with a very small minority in most countries objecting to abortions.

The reason the US is on a different plain to the rest of us is due mainly to the religious zealotry of the Fundie Christians. I'm not saying that all people who are anti abortion are Christians, or even fundie Christians, but the vast majority are. And once you start with that argument - and you do fit that bill Allie - then you lose. Keep your religious beliefs out of other peoples' business.

Missed this post earlier. I think you are very wrong as to the reason the U.S. still debates this as vigorously as we do.

My belief is that the reason this goes on as it does is because of our political system and the two parties that govern us. Because of the obscurity of our current laws in this regard and the fact that it is such a heated topic, Both parties use this topic as a wedge between the voters. If Roe had not been so poorly decided and so frigging vague, things would be different here. We could have come to some sort of common ground and common sense solutions long ago. Instead the parties and the extremists on both sides don't want that. They have the voters right where they want them... at each others throats. The party that wins is the party that gets the most voters on their side.

May the parties rot in hell!

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

Naw, it's because it's a question of values.

Do you value life and cherish it? Or do you think it's expendable, and give no more thought to other beings than a pebble in your shoe?

 

[Dr.Drock]

Naw, it's because it's a question of values.

Do you value life and cherish it? Or do you think it's expendable, and give no more thought to other beings than a pebble in your shoe?

Thanks for saying this Allie, now I've found someone who's going to help me spread the anti-war message.