Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[JBeukema]

I am also for forced sterilization...of all replete offenders. Both men and women alike.

Why do you hate the replete?

Well, abortionism always has been tied to eugenics

 

[Ravi]

Why do you hate the replete?

Well, abortionism always has been tied to eugenics

Aside from the fact that my joke went over your head, no it hasn't.

Though I can honestly say that you are an argument for eugenics all by yourself.

 

[Shadow]

I have never denied it is an organism. I say fetal tissue does not have "life" in and of itself without its host. It is only tissue as far as I am concerned, until it has a "life" of its own. There is no admitting I support killing living human children as i do not believe that 4 week old tissue is "living" ..it has no stand alone "life"

Can you be honest enough to answer the question of, will 4 week old tissue live outside the womb?

Of course not. But whether it lives outside of its environment doesn't determine its humanness or not. Humans beget humans. From conception to delivery and beyond, they are human beings. Different stages to be sure, but human beings at each and every stage.

If I took you as you are right now and plopped you in the middle of Siberia you'd be dead within the hour. Does that make you less human because you're unprepared and unequipped to survive in a hostile environment?

This is the part that I think many are not getting. Developmental stages of a human being are just that . . . stages of development. But what is living and growing inside of a woman is a human being. How can you possibly say it is anything else? That it is just a blob of tissue? If it were just a blob of tissue, if it isn't "life" as you claim . . . then an abortion wouldn't be something a woman would seek.

I posted these definitions earlier and they went ignored.

Abortion: the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

Pregnancy: 1. the state or condition of being pregnant 2. the period from conception to childbirth

Where do i say that the tissue is not human? Where do i ever say it is not living tissue? Don't misunderstand what i am saying.

Do i say plop the tissue out into Siberia? I say put it on the table. Have that 4 week old mass of tissue worked over any way you want and given all the life support it can get. Will it live?

No one has the right to force someone else to be an incubator for a something that can be construed as a parasite. I know those are harsh terms but it is what it is. 4 week old fetal human tissue cannot survive without its host.

Again, i do not say abortion do i? I say c- section, a form of birth. Birth effectively ends pregnancy.

JB asks is it human from conception. Yes it is
Jb asks is that tissue alive. Yes it is

Alive and having a life of its own are two very different things.

How to Understand the Hysterectomy or Cesarean Section Abortion Procedure

How to Understand the Hysterectomy or Cesarean Section Abortion Procedure | eHow.com

 

[ABikerSailor]

It is human from the moment of conception, to say otherwise is a lie. Humans conceive and give birth to humans; fetuses don't "morph" into a human at some arbitrary 40 day mark.

They are human at conception because that is how we've named them and nothing more. A fertilized egg is not a person. Aborting it is not murdering a person.

Humans conceive humans. From the beginning it is human. They're not human because '"that's what we've named them", they're human because HUMANS BEGET HUMANS. How utterly stupid are you that you can't just admit this? It's not a dog or a cat or an acorn . . it is a human. It is a life that is in one of the very earliest stages of development and abortion is the killing/ending/destruction of a human life. It isn't considered murder because it has been made legal. That doesn't change the fact of what abortion does.

You're right. Humans do create other humans via breeding. However, there is one distinct thing in all societies as well as theologies that define what it is specifically to be "human".

It's called free will, and your soul. Animals must act by instinct, and, many theologies that say the thing that separates us from the animals is that small piece of God called our soul.

Scientifically speaking, it's also the point where we finally develop a nervous sytem and a brain that is programmed to act with free will.

So no.........it's not "human" until it's developed a nervous sytem, sometime after the 40 day mark.

Unless, you're a staunch supporter of the GOP and think that being soul less is "human".

 

[frazzledgear]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

Oh please -no more of the "no one but a woman can understand it" BULLSHIT! Are you SERIOUSLY saying that only another WOMAN could possibly understand whatever rationale you told yourself before getting an abortion? That must mean you think the people who cannot possibly understand are MEN, just ignorant men who have no idea what its like to find themselves pregnant at an inconvenient time of life whether that issue of convenience has to do with location, job, personal relationship, finances, waking up on the wrong side of the bed or any possible combination etc. etc. Only a WOMAN could possibly understand being saddled with a kid they would rather see dead, right? Only a WOMAN would understand your belief that the value of another human life is determined by someone other than the owner of that life? Does that also mean you value the opinion of women over that of men when it comes to the issue of abortion itself?

I don't care what your personal situation was and I don't care what kind of justifications you had to tell yourself to get an abortion -it is IRRELEVANT to this discussion. So you had an abortion and disposed of your own child like the trash it was to you. Does the fact that was your own personal value judgment on the life of your own child place any obligation on everyone else to agree with those justifications or try to convince themselves as well that the youngest of human lives just don't count as a human life? Does that mean because YOU had an abortion and then smugly claim "unless you are a woman..." THAT somehow MEANS something in this discussion? Why would the fact you chose to have an abortion have a damn thing to do with this discussion about the fact it is a human life being killed? Do you SERIOUSLY expect others to agree with you that the true value of another human life is properly determined by someone who doesn't even own it and if someone who doesn't own that life decides it is trash everyone else must agree with that as well -just because that is what you did? Oh and then lay that piece of crap bullshit that no one could possibly understand why that is ok except another WOMAN? Are you for real?

What I as a WOMAN really DO understand is your defensiveness about what you did and why you feel the need to continue defending it in your own mind instead of coming to grips with the horror and immorality of what you did and realize you never did have a "right" to take the life of your child just because its existence was inconvenient for you at the moment. Its easier to tell yourself it was a good, humane, decent and moral decision and then brush it off as "unless you are a woman..." bullshit. As a woman I really do understand why you are doing that but not because I am a woman -rationalizing the bad decisions we make in life is NOT restricted to just one gender!

Apparently you are under the impression it is women who would most understand (and approve) your decision to have an abortion, that it is WOMEN who would most agree with you that if you decide the life of your own child is trash it is ok to dispose of it like trash. Guess again. It isn't WOMEN who are most likely to agree and support your decision to kill your own child. The majority of all women oppose abortion on demand and the overwhelming majority of women who have had a baby oppose it -probably because it is impossible to deny that the person inside them really is a human and not a theoretical guppy after all. It is SINGLE MEN who support abortion on demand! Gee, I wonder why that is. By the way, that is also strongly correlated to why the number one cause of death for a pregnant woman changed from "accidents" and "complications of pregnancy" prior to Roe v. Wade to HOMICIDE in less than a decade following that ruling. Homicide that is almost without exception at the hands of their baby's father when he gets really, really pissed off when the woman refuses to have an abortion at HIS demand and he really, really wants his kid dead and out of his way! Being pregnant when the daddy wants his kid dead is a dangerous time for a woman.

67% of all women who have abortions say they were pressured into getting one against their will by the father. Women who oppose a man exercising his "right" to an abortion on HIS demand increase their own risk of death. Abortion on demand protects MEN -and the life of your child doesn't even enter into the equation. Just because you chose to end the life of your child for reasons you think only another woman could possibly understand in NO way obligates ANYONE to support your decision to do it. And it is WOMEN themselves who are the LEAST likely to do so.

 

[taichiliberal]

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society

By that reasoning, big cities full of free condoms should have no abortions

That's not the reality

1/3 of abortions are repeat business

Your premise is bullshit

The reality is that YOU edited out what you didn't want to hear. For those interested in an HONEST discussion:

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society the way we do sports trivia and automobile ownership, then abortion would indeed be a rarity that would STILL be a private choice by the individual.

Instead, you get a bunch of hysterical, idealogical clowns with mantras like "sex educaton promotes promiscuity and STD's" and the like over the decades.
Bottom line: you don't like what your neighbor is doing in their bedroom or with their doctor, THEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS....because all the racial, class, religious and social prejudices will be waiting for all those new borns who no one wanted or want to know about as they grow up.

Just because "big cities" are "full of condoms" that doesn't mean that they are being sold to minors, does it genius?

Where did you get this "1/3 of abortions are repeat business" from? Did they tell you the percentage of abortions that are done by adult women? Married women? Teenagers?

The "reality" JB, is that your long on half assed propaganda, and short on logic based in reality....similar to what I previously described.

 

[taichiliberal]

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society the way we do sports trivia and automobile ownership, then abortion would indeed be a rarity that would STILL be a private choice by the individual.

Instead, you get a bunch of hysterical, idealogical clowns with mantras like "sex educaton promotes promiscuity and STD's" and the like over the decades.

Bottom line: you don't like what your neighbor is doing in their bedroom or with their doctor, THEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS....because all the racial, class, religious and social prejudices will be waiting for all those new borns who no one wanted or want to know about as they grow up.

I have always promoted sexual education and support pregnancy prevention. I don't think you should be able to use abortion as birth control. That is what their doing. Is it right to take drugs while pregnant? No, Because it can harm the baby. If it is morally wrong to harm the baby at any point during development, then it is wrong to kill it.

1) One of the recent Catholic Popes described using ANY type of birth control device as a sin. So I hope you're not religious.

2) Abortion is NOT "birth control", as birth control has been to prevent conception. An abortion is a medical procedure of a different nature as to say, the implanting of an IUD.

3) Your analogy of taking drugs has to do with folk who have decided to have the baby and bring it to full term....that is NOT the case with abortion cases.

4) Abortion foes railed against use of the "morning after" pill. What's your stance on that?

 

[syrenn]

Do you not understand that human beings develop through various stages before they are fully capable of living outside of the womb? Whether you c-section it out, deliver it out, abort . . .what means you use . . . how can you expect a human being in the earliest stages to survive in an environment it is not yet equipped to survive in? Surviving -- viability -- doesn't determine if a fetus is a human being or not. That 'blob of living tissue' you refer to IS a human being in one of the earliest stages of development. To state otherwise is a lie.

I never said to put a 4 week fetus into Siberia . . . I said if you were to be plopped into Siberia, as you are right at this moment, you'd die within an hour because you are neither prepared nor equipped to survive in that environment. . . just as a human being taken from it's environment too soon is not prepared or equipped to survive in that environment.

Does putting you into a hostile environment (in which you will surely die) make you less human? Because if I'm understanding your argument, you're saying that putting a 4 week fetus into a hostile environment (in which it will surely die) makes it less human.

Yes, i know the developmental cycle of humans.

Again, i don't not dispute that the tissue is human. Nor have i stated that it is not human.

As you say yourself, 4 week old fetal tissue is not viable. And that is rather my point. Viability is what gives it life. It has nothing to do with it being more, or less, human.

Um, it isn't "tissue" it is a human being in the earliest stages of development.

Viability gives it life? I disagree with that. You are a human being. You would not be viable in Siberia as you are right at this moment. Both are true statements. The same statements can be applied to a fetus (substitute table for Siberia). It is viable in the womb and it is a (early developing) human being, a human life. Taken prematurely from it's environment and it will die. It can only die if it was life to begin with. Viability doesn't determine whether it is a human being.

So for you when the fetus becomes viable outside of the womb is when you would say no to abortion? Anything prior to that and abortion is ok? (just asking for clarification)

While we disagree on this issue, thank you for discussing it rationally and calming and not flinging falsehoods, like others in here have done.

My threshold for removing a fetus is about 9 weeks, that is my end point. In that time a person has had enough time to make up their minds. Anything longer then that the pregnancy has gone to far in my opinion, and it is viable...

 

[syrenn]

Where do i say that the tissue is not human? Where do i ever say it is not living tissue? Don't misunderstand what i am saying.

Do i say plop the tissue out into Siberia? I say put it on the table. Have that 4 week old mass of tissue worked over any way you want and given all the life support it can get. Will it live?

No one has the right to force someone else to be an incubator for a something that can be construed as a parasite. I know those are harsh terms but it is what it is. 4 week old fetal human tissue cannot survive without its host.

Again, i do not say abortion do i? I say c- section, a form of birth. Birth effectively ends pregnancy.

JB asks is it human from conception. Yes it is
Jb asks is that tissue alive. Yes it is

Alive and having a life of its own are two very different things.

Do you not understand that human beings develop through various stages before they are fully capable of living outside of the womb? Whether you c-section it out, deliver it out, abort . . .what means you use . . . how can you expect a human being in the earliest stages to survive in an environment it is not yet equipped to survive in? Surviving -- viability -- doesn't determine if a fetus is a human being or not. That 'blob of living tissue' you refer to IS a human being in one of the earliest stages of development. To state otherwise is a lie.

I never said to put a 4 week fetus into Siberia . . . I said if you were to be plopped into Siberia, as you are right at this moment, you'd die within an hour because you are neither prepared nor equipped to survive in that environment. . . just as a human being taken from it's environment too soon is not prepared or equipped to survive in that environment.

Does putting you into a hostile environment (in which you will surely die) make you less human? Because if I'm understanding your argument, you're saying that putting a 4 week fetus into a hostile environment (in which it will surely die) makes it less human.

I thought her argument was "It's small and helpless and fragile, so that makes it okay to kill it", an attitude that in school-age children is generally called "bullying".

Not even close.

 

[syrenn]

Again you completely and totally ignore my entire post, my entire point. Unfuckingbelievable. Punishing the woman isn't my ballyiwick, it's yours so stop projecting it onto me. And your statement above makes zero sense. Punishment does not dictate whether something is murder, the law does and unfortunately our law okayed the killing of unborn human beings. You are truly dumber than a rock.

I realize you want to put me into some kind of rw extremist box . . have fun with it because I'm not fitting and I'm not playing your game. Once again, punishing the woman isn't what pro-life is about it is about preventing abortion thus preventing the destruction of innocent human life.

And look at you clapping along like a trained seal or something. You know what? Good. Remember this the next time you try and pigeon hole me with your "pro-lifers don't care about the woman they only care about the unborn" bullshit. mmmkay?


Neither one of you have answered JB's question:

"At what time did what fundamental aspect of your nature change that made killing you in cold blood go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing?"

Want to try answering this or are you just going to bounce back with more projection? Never mind, I already know the answer to that question.

At what time? Right around the 40 day mark. It's when scientists have proven the mass of cells does not develop a nervous system until after that point.

It's also referred to in Judaic theology, because it states that the embryo created by your parents doesn't get a soul (a small piece of God's energy He carves out from Himself for us), until around the 40 day point.

Short answer to your question? At about a month and a half is when it changes to something that could be considered human.

It is human from the moment of conception, to say otherwise is a lie. Humans conceive and give birth to humans; fetuses don't "morph" into a human at some arbitrary 40 day mark.

No, the morph from a mass of human tissue into a human baby, which if healthy has a life of its own.

 

[syrenn]

I am also for forced sterilization...of all replete offenders. Both men and women alike.

Why do you hate the replete?

Ah well shit, repeat offenders.

 

[JBeukema]

Why do you hate the replete?

Well, abortionism always has been tied to eugenics

no it hasn't.

Ever heard of margaret sanger?

 

[JBeukema]

Instead, you get a bunch of hysterical, idealogical clowns with mantras like "sex educaton promotes promiscuity and STD's" and the like over the decades.

So now you expect us to believe that the majority of schools are teaching abstinence-only?

And all you little Democrats who teach your kids where to get abortions don't teach them to not sleep around without protection why?
If they can find their way to PP for an abortion, there's no reason they can't find their way there to get some condoms

Bottom line: you don't like what your neighbor is doing in their bedroom or with their doctor, THEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS

Nobody cares what you and your partner do behind closed doors with your own bodies.

An unborn child's not your body.

Try a new spiel.

If you want to know the numbers and where they come from, learn to use Google.

Even Planned Parenthood states that 93% of abortions are done for simple convenience.

 

[JBeukema]

1) One of the recent Catholic Popes described using ANY type of birth control device as a sin. So I hope you're not religious.

There's no point dragging your religion into this.

2) Abortion is NOT "birth control"

It is used as such in 93% of cases

3) Your analogy of taking drugs has to do with folk who have decided to have the baby and bring it to full term....that is NOT the case with abortion cases.

His analogy has to do with acts that harm the unborn. Most people would consider killing someone to be causing harm.

4) Abortion foes railed against use of the "morning after" pill. What's your stance on that?

How 'bout focusing on what he's said and not on what you want him to have said?

 

[JBeukema]

My threshold for removing a fetus is about 9 weeks my end point. In that time a person has had enough time to make up their minds. Anything longer then that the pregnancy has gone to far in my opinion, and the and it is viable...

Define: viable

We can save preemies today we couldn't have decades ago. It's a moving target.

Does grandma become free game when she's on a respirator?

Why does 'viability' mean anything at all?


Had enough time? What about all the time you had to decide to not engage in unprotected sex or to keep your clothes on if you're not ready to provide and care for a child?

 

[AllieBaba]

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society

By that reasoning, big cities full of free condoms should have no abortions

That's not the reality

1/3 of abortions are repeat business

Your premise is bullshit

The reality is that YOU edited out what you didn't want to hear. For those interested in an HONEST discussion:

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society the way we do sports trivia and automobile ownership, then abortion would indeed be a rarity that would STILL be a private choice by the individual.

Instead, you get a bunch of hysterical, idealogical clowns with mantras like "sex educaton promotes promiscuity and STD's" and the like over the decades.
Bottom line: you don't like what your neighbor is doing in their bedroom or with their doctor, THEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS....because all the racial, class, religious and social prejudices will be waiting for all those new borns who no one wanted or want to know about as they grow up.

Just because "big cities" are "full of condoms" that doesn't mean that they are being sold to minors, does it genius?

Where did you get this "1/3 of abortions are repeat business" from? Did they tell you the percentage of abortions that are done by adult women? Married women? Teenagers?

The "reality" JB, is that your long on half assed propaganda, and short on logic based in reality....similar to what I previously described.

pos

This is supposed to be the *honest* discussion?

LOL!

BTW, FALSE PREMISE, AD HOMINEM

 

[JBeukema]

At what time? Right around the 40 day mark. It's when scientists have proven the mass of cells does not develop a nervous system until after that point.

It's also referred to in Judaic theology, because it states that the embryo created by your parents doesn't get a soul (a small piece of God's energy He carves out from Himself for us), until around the 40 day point.

Short answer to your question? At about a month and a half is when it changes to something that could be considered human.

It is human from the moment of conception, to say otherwise is a lie. Humans conceive and give birth to humans; fetuses don't "morph" into a human at some arbitrary 40 day mark.

No, the morph from a mass of human tissue into a human baby, which if healthy has a life of its own.

There is no such morph.

Ask the local library for a biology book and a book on embryology

 

[JBeukema]

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Oh yeah, and at what point did what change that made killing you in cold blood go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing and why did it make killing you suddenly not-okay?

 

[Grace]

My threshold for removing a fetus is about 9 weeks my end point. In that time a person has had enough time to make up their minds. Anything longer then that the pregnancy has gone to far in my opinion, and the and it is viable...

Define: viable

We can save preemies today we couldn't have decades ago. It's a moving target.

Does grandma become free game when she's on a respirator?

Why does 'viability' mean anything at all?


Had enough time? What about all the time you had to decide to not engage in unprotected sex or to keep your clothes on if you're not ready to provide and care for a child?

How about this variable? It was time enough for the guy to keep his dick in his pants and since he didnt, had a woody and thought hed show some "power" and "control" and his banty rooster mentality needed to force himself on someone weaker to step up and own what he did, but didnt, and therefore got his sorry ass thrown in jail because what he did was ILLEGAL and called RAPE.

Howzat for variables, insinuations, finger pointing and overall GUESSING scenarios of which nobody knows jack shit about while arguing a point over and over and over and over again?

 

[JBeukema]

Rape victims account for 1% of abortions

Parading them around to justify the 93% of abortions that are done out of simple convenience is bullshit. It is nothing short of the exploitation of their suffering to serve the political and economic interests of the abortion industry.