Why can't we ABIDE BY the debt ceiling instead of always raising it?

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Almost all did.

It has been one of the PRECEPTS of modern day American Conservatism that the government taxes too much, SPENDS too much, regulates too much and meddles too much.

Political Junky's contention is simply and totally devoid of truth value.

Much like many liberals today refuse to criticize Obama for things that they would criticize Bush for, many conservatives were unwilling to criticize Bush while he was in power over his profligate spending. Now you can say those are the "precepts" of American conservatism, but it doesn't change the fact that Bush ignored those "precepts" and plenty of conservatives stayed silent while he did. It doesn't necessarily mean they agreed with his policies, simply that they didn't want to criticize him for political reasons. Of course they're all perfectly willing to criticize him now that he's out of power.

First off: my argument was directed at the absurd contention of Political Flunky. What HE claimed IS false. LOTS of conservatives sure as shit DID complain about spending LONG before there was even an official CANDIDATE named Obama.

Spin it for all you're worth, but you can't erase what Political Flunky SAID. He was wrong. Period.

Next, there WERE indeed some folks who zipped their lips rather than criticize W. In the face of the relentless criticism of the left (including of course the biased liberal propagandist media) directed against W, it might have seemed a bit unseemly to join the chorus. That said, it is STILL true that MANY CONSERVATIVES still voiced concern about and railed AGAINST excessive Government spending. I never suggested, claimed or contended that ALL conservatives forcefully argued against W's spending at that time. I simply (and correctly) DENIED the absurd (false) claim made by Political Flunky.

The left wing radical liberals' present day failure to criticize Obumbler is not even remotely akin to any right winger's reluctance to criticize W, however. The modern day liberal would not be guilty of being disloyal to a standard bearer under attack. NOBODY in the fucking left wing main stream media goes after Obumbler and his nearly total historical record of FAIL. So there is no "chorus" to join in on.

Then you'll note that I too disagreed with PJ's assertion that all conservatives kept quiet.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Almost all did.

It has been one of the PRECEPTS of modern day American Conservatism that the government taxes too much, SPENDS too much, regulates too much and meddles too much.

Political Junky's contention is simply and totally devoid of truth value.

Much like many liberals today refuse to criticize Obama for things that they would criticize Bush for, many conservatives were unwilling to criticize Bush while he was in power over his profligate spending. Now you can say those are the "precepts" of American conservatism, but it doesn't change the fact that Bush ignored those "precepts" and plenty of conservatives stayed silent while he did. It doesn't necessarily mean they agreed with his policies, simply that they didn't want to criticize him for political reasons. Of course they're all perfectly willing to criticize him now that he's out of power.

Yup. Exactly. Medicare Part D was the biggest expansion of government into healthcare since LBJ, at least up until Obama. You didn't see conservatives rise up en masse. They mildly took it with hardly a peep.

It's just partisan tribalism. Republicans are no better or no worse than Democrat (even though Republicans will say Democrats are worse and Democrats will say Republicans are worse). Obama's foreign policy is Bush Lite, and you don't hear many Democrats bitching about drone strikes or Gitmo like they did under Bush.

Right, though I'm not sure I'd call his foreign policy Bush Lite. I'd simply say it was a natural progression.

 

[bendog]

Liberals (in both parties) often use the excuse, that if we don't raise the debt ceiling, we'll just not be able to pay for the things we've already bought.

What that really means is, "Even though we knew the debt ceiling was coming, we ignored it and obligated ourselves to spend far more money that we were authorized to, because we knew you people didn't mean it, and would raise it whenever we said."

Suppose we could make a law that was (nearly) impossible to change, stating that the maximum debt was (say) $20 trillion. Such as, a Constitutional amendment. Once an amendment is enacted, it is almost never repealed or changed. And on the rare occasions when one is, it takes years (see 18th and 21st amendments).

Suppose we enacted such an amendment. And afterward, the various poll-chasers found that the American people did NOT want to repeal or amend the amendment further. Congressional overspenders would know we wouldn't hit the new ceiling for a couple more years or more... but they would also know that once we hit it, it would NOT be raised. So they would have that many years to dial back spending to where we might approach the new ceiling, but wouldn't exceed it.

What would they do?

Doing this makes no economic sense. I certainaly agree with you that too much debt would/could cause other nations to lose faith in our currency and ability to pay on the debt and/or crowd out other spending.

However, debt serves useful purposes too. The Saudis and now the Chinese simply can't afford to erradicate us. Thus, having our trade partners hold our debt in the form of sending money back over to us, actually makes the world safer and facilitates free trade, which was the nexis for forming the Republic in the first place. The credit meltdown was largely a result of our interest rates being so low, our trading partners wanted a better debt, and that was seen as the qdo's of the housing market. Had we not pumped up a bubble real estate bubble, the foreign money would have had to go elsewhere ... tbills.

Secondly, reducing the actual amount of debt would actually remove dollars from circulation. This is EXACTLY what central bankers did in 29-30, and which led to the deflation that brought on the great depression. (Incidentally, this is a corrolary to why Rand Paul's notion of tying the value of currency to a commodity that fluctuates in price is idiocy, i.e. don't tie the amount of money in trade to factors outside the govt's power)

It would probably be ideal get the ratio of debt/gnp back to where it was in 2000, and then see where to go, but now we have the deficit pressure from the boomers, so unfortunately, we probably have to look at what we can do TODAY to affect the ratio 20 years from now.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Yep, let's gut our world class science, infrastructure and r@d here at home. Completely and utterly ignoring the real causes of the debt.

Why do you want to harm America?

 

[bendog]

Yep, let's gut our world class science, infrastructure and r@d here at home. Completely and utterly ignoring the real causes of the debt.

Why do you want to harm America?

Well, I guess I'd have to ask what you thing are the real causes of the debt? First, had we not done the W taxcuts, we'd not be talking about debt. But, water under the bridge ... or perhaps the China Sea... but at this point we're talking about somehow paying off boomers like me without crowding out everythign else the govt has to spend money on.

 

[Contumacious]

the idiot rino boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling.

a welfare state = government buy the people

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Yep, let's gut our world class science, infrastructure and r@d here at home. Completely and utterly ignoring the real causes of the debt.

Why do you want to harm America?

You've said that shit a hundred times in my time here. Why don't you get some new lines so you don't look like such a fucking retard.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

Yep, let's gut our world class science, infrastructure and r@d here at home. Completely and utterly ignoring the real causes of the debt.

Why do you want to harm America?

The real causes of the debt are your God Obozo giving literally a trillion $ to the bankers every one of the last 5 years!! That has nothing to do with science, infrastructure or R&D.think!!!

 

[Jarlaxle]

It would take a trillion dollar cut in spending to keep the budget under the debt ceiling.

Then do it. Fire up the chainsaw and get slashing.

You do not even know what you are saying, have you ever been seriously injured seconds after saying "Hold my beer, I want to do something cool"? Ignorant recklessness didn't used to be a conservative value.

I know EXACTLY what I'm saying; please stop projecting your faults on others.

 

[Freewill]

The idiot RINO Boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling. Hell - the point of the ceiling is to control govt spending so he should be demanding obozo cut back on spending.

John Boehner: 'Increase the Debt Ceiling'

5 Feb 2014, 9:05 AM

With just two days before America hits the debt ceiling deadline, Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) announced on Tuesday his desire to raise it.
"The goal here is to increase the debt ceiling," said Boehner. "Nobody wants to default on our debt."
Treasury Secretary Jack Lew says the nation will hit its debt limit this Friday, February 7th.
"While we're doing this we ought to do something about the jobs and the economy," said Boehner.
Boehner said Republicans have discussed several options for receiving concessions for a debt limit increase but that "no decisions have been made."

The reason is, in my opinion, is quantitative Easing. They are artificially keeping the stock market at a high rate and NO ONE, no one, wants to see another crash. But it is going to happen they can't keep printing money. As we see the stock market is already reacting to the tapering off of easy money.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

The reason is, in my opinion, is quantitative Easing. They are artificially keeping the stock market at a high rate and NO ONE, no one, wants to see another crash. But it is going to happen they can't keep printing money. As we see the stock market is already reacting to the tapering off of easy money.

Yes indeed. Obozo is admits he's giving the bankers a trillion dollars every year!!! And with his record for lying, you have to figure it's much more than that.

I say stop QE now. If the economy crashes, that's good. Then people will realize socialism has failed and we must return to free markets.

 

[Contumacious]

the idiot rino boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling.

a welfare state = government buy the people

 

[Indeependent]

The idiot RINO Boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling. Hell - the point of the ceiling is to control govt spending so he should be demanding obozo cut back on spending.

John Boehner: 'Increase the Debt Ceiling'

5 Feb 2014, 9:05 AM

With just two days before America hits the debt ceiling deadline, Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) announced on Tuesday his desire to raise it.
"The goal here is to increase the debt ceiling," said Boehner. "Nobody wants to default on our debt."
Treasury Secretary Jack Lew says the nation will hit its debt limit this Friday, February 7th.
"While we're doing this we ought to do something about the jobs and the economy," said Boehner.
Boehner said Republicans have discussed several options for receiving concessions for a debt limit increase but that "no decisions have been made."

The reason is, in my opinion, is quantitative Easing. They are artificially keeping the stock market at a high rate and NO ONE, no one, wants to see another crash. But it is going to happen they can't keep printing money. As we see the stock market is already reacting to the tapering off of easy money.

Mr. Free Market, Milton Friedman, was very much in favor of QE.
The problem with the current QE is that the lenders are NOT lending.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The idiot RINO Boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling. Hell - the point of the ceiling is to control govt spending so he should be demanding obozo cut back on spending.

The reason is, in my opinion, is quantitative Easing. They are artificially keeping the stock market at a high rate and NO ONE, no one, wants to see another crash. But it is going to happen they can't keep printing money. As we see the stock market is already reacting to the tapering off of easy money.

Mr. Free Market, Milton Friedman, was very much in favor of QE.
The problem with the current QE is that the lenders are NOT lending.

Hardly "Mr. Free Market" then.

 

[Contumacious]

The idiot RINO Boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling. Hell - the point of the ceiling is to control govt spending so he should be demanding obozo cut back on spending.

The reason is, in my opinion, is quantitative Easing. They are artificially keeping the stock market at a high rate and NO ONE, no one, wants to see another crash. But it is going to happen they can't keep printing money. As we see the stock market is already reacting to the tapering off of easy money.

Mr. Free Market, Milton Friedman, was very much in favor of QE.
The problem with the current QE is that the lenders are NOT lending.

BULLSHIT


Milton Friedman Thought There Shouldn't be a Federal Reserve at All


Reason: But it would be preferable to abolish the Fed entirely and just have government stick to a monetary growth rule?

Friedman: Yes, it's preferable. And there's no chance at all of it happening


.

 

[Desperado]

"Raising the Debt Ceiling" is merely the name of a formality to pay for products/services already rendered.

The govt would not have rendered those services if they knew they were bound by the debt ceiling. THINK!!!!

I agree.
We should stop spending on our military to build and support infrastructure in other countries.
We also need to eliminate corporate subsidies as well as automate many municipal, state and federal functions as they all get our federal tax dollars.

Do you agree?

Throw in Farm Subsidies and you have a deal.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The reason is, in my opinion, is quantitative Easing. They are artificially keeping the stock market at a high rate and NO ONE, no one, wants to see another crash. But it is going to happen they can't keep printing money. As we see the stock market is already reacting to the tapering off of easy money.

Mr. Free Market, Milton Friedman, was very much in favor of QE.
The problem with the current QE is that the lenders are NOT lending.

BULLSHIT


Milton Friedman Thought There Shouldn't be a Federal Reserve at All


Reason: But it would be preferable to abolish the Fed entirely and just have government stick to a monetary growth rule?

Friedman: Yes, it's preferable. And there's no chance at all of it happening


.

Absent his idea of the money supply growing annually at a static rate, however, he did not support the abolition of the Fed.

 

[Contumacious]

Mr. Free Market, Milton Friedman, was very much in favor of QE.
The problem with the current QE is that the lenders are NOT lending.

BULLSHIT


Milton Friedman Thought There Shouldn't be a Federal Reserve at All


Reason: But it would be preferable to abolish the Fed entirely and just have government stick to a monetary growth rule?

Friedman: Yes, it's preferable. And there's no chance at all of it happening


.

Absent his idea of the money supply growing annually at a static rate, however, he did not support the abolition of the Fed.

WUT?


this book’s 1984 essay “Freezing High-Powered Money” shows, the later Friedman was as radical as Ron Paul in his opposition to the Fed. Friedman called for elimination of the Federal Reserve’s role in “determining the quantity of money” and says its regulatory and service role to the banking system “could, if desired, be continued, preferably by combining it with the similar roles of the FDIC.” In other words, End the Fed!

.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The idiot RINO Boehner is again trying to help obozo by raising the debt ceiling. Hell - the point of the ceiling is to control govt spending so he should be demanding obozo cut back on spending.

John Boehner: 'Increase the Debt Ceiling'

5 Feb 2014, 9:05 AM

With just two days before America hits the debt ceiling deadline, Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) announced on Tuesday his desire to raise it.
"The goal here is to increase the debt ceiling," said Boehner. "Nobody wants to default on our debt."
Treasury Secretary Jack Lew says the nation will hit its debt limit this Friday, February 7th.
"While we're doing this we ought to do something about the jobs and the economy," said Boehner.
Boehner said Republicans have discussed several options for receiving concessions for a debt limit increase but that "no decisions have been made."

Here's a simple analogy.

Why can't we abide by the debt ceiling instead of raising it? Why can't criminals with guns obey gun laws instead of shooting up schools and malls?

Neither law has any power or effect over those they are supposed to govern.

 

[Sallow]

I can't abide being in debt 17 trillion dollars.

Neither can I, by gosh.

There's no reason whatsoever to spend 600 billion on the military.

Time to get that number down to 100 billion.