Why doesnt a leader of a Country

[iceberg]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how is this defending russia? unless you just give up and this is a parting shot, fine.

i'm saying if russia did it you tell me - how is that any different than what we do? the ONLY reason the left gives a flying horse shit here is cause they hate trump and this is their lifeline to being able to handle it. BAD TRUMP HACKED OUR FREEDOMS!!!!

great. if hacking a countries freedoms are so bad, why do *we* do it so often and why are *we* so hypocritical when done back to us? if you can't see both sides as wrong then - to me - that is massively hypocritical.

 

[OldLady]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

 

[usmbguest5318]

The CIA, FBI, NSA and Director of National Intelligence all have "high confidence" in their judgment that Russia engaged in an influence campaign directed at the election.
The members of the Senate Intelligence Committee have no question whatever that Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta and that they tried getting in to state election cyberspace, without success. Russia interfered. The intelligence agencies have as much proof as can be had and it is valid information.

Europe has come to the same conclusion about Russian interference in their elections.

Why would they lie about it? And why do you refuse to believe it? What does that accomplish for you?

Funny stuff. The government never examined the DNC servers. We do know Obama hacked multiple state election systems.

Obama hacked multiple state election systems.
Link?

Its only speculative at this point. But i believe it did trace back his DoD or something. He also tried to influence other countries voting. But im sure you guys dont care about that

Its Ok to force a freely elected leader of the Ukraine out of his own country. It's fine to spend tax payer money on Israeli elections, as long as its a liberal doing it.

Excuse me? The U.S.' involvement in regime change is hardly unique to either major political party.

• 1900 -- Boxer Rebellion
• 1903 -- Panamanian secession with U.S. aid in Thousand Days War
• 1903 - 1925 -- U.S. government inserts itself, at the behest of the United Fruit Company and the Standard Fruit Company, into Honduran affairs. This series of events is what inspired the term "banana republic."
• 1912 - 1933 -- U.S. occupation of Nicaragua
• 1953 -- Overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran. The U.S. literally planned and executed a coup d'etat.
• 1954 -- Guatemala. Operation PBSUCCESS was another U.S. planned and executed coup d'etat.
• 1958 -- The Eisenhower Doctrine is first implemented in Lebanon with Operation Blue Bat

Dude, you really need to read more or, minimally, invest some effort to confirm your suppositions before sharing them publicly as though they come with portfolio.

• United States Military Intervention and the Promotion of Democracy

You are either grossly under informed (ignorant), outright stupid, hubristic and slothful, or unrepentantly mendacious. I don't know which for I cannot tell whether you simply don't know the facts (ignorance), know them and have chosen to ignore them (mendacity), or you don't know them and don't bother to discover them (stupidity, hubris and sloth).

 

[iceberg]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

how many gerbils have you talked to in order to make this comparison? >BG<

 

[TNHarley]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

Maybe i would be a better conversationist if you didnt make shit up?
I wont play your strawmen game and im the asshole. Yes, thats how it works.
Ay caramba

 

[NYcarbineer]

[
how many gerbils have you talked to in order to make this comparison? >BG<

She has 18,000 posts on this conservative dominated message board so I'd say that number is in dozens, if not hundreds.

 

[Rustic]

The CIA, FBI, NSA and Director of National Intelligence all have "high confidence" in their judgment that Russia engaged in an influence campaign directed at the election.
The members of the Senate Intelligence Committee have no question whatever that Russia hacked the DNC and Podesta and that they tried getting in to state election cyberspace, without success. Russia interfered. The intelligence agencies have as much proof as can be had and it is valid information.

Europe has come to the same conclusion about Russian interference in their elections.

Why would they lie about it? And why do you refuse to believe it? What does that accomplish for you?

What about the DNC and their carelessness?

 

[iceberg]

[
how many gerbils have you talked to in order to make this comparison? >BG<

She has 18,000 posts on this conservative dominated message board so I'd say that number is in dozens, if not hundreds.

funny, i've yet to see a gerbil in here doing much of anything.

 

[OldLady]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how is this defending russia? unless you just give up and this is a parting shot, fine.

i'm saying if russia did it you tell me - how is that any different than what we do? the ONLY reason the left gives a flying horse shit here is cause they hate trump and this is their lifeline to being able to handle it. BAD TRUMP HACKED OUR FREEDOMS!!!!

great. if hacking a countries freedoms are so bad, why do *we* do it so often and why are *we* so hypocritical when done back to us? if you can't see both sides as wrong then - to me - that is massively hypocritical.

You have brought up a different argument altogether that I'm choosing not to get involved in. I was asking the OP why the government would frame Russia for Democratic hacks they did themselves. I never got a straight answer. At least not one I could make out.
I am choosing not to get involved with it because it is probably not "right" for us to get involved in other countries' democratic elections or overthrowing regimes unfriendly to us. However, none of us would be too unhappy if our government could figure out a way to overthrow the regime in North Korea about now. Would we?
Anyway, I think what you've brought up is what they call a "moral equivalency" argument, is it not, which is a logical fallacy? If other countries want to get p.o.'d and sanction us, call us out at the U.N., that's their right. Maybe they have. That's pretty much all I think on the topic.

 

[Rustic]

Hildabeast was and is incompetent, along with the DNC. They deserved the damage being more of an enemy to the country than anyone else involved in this... lol

 

[iceberg]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how is this defending russia? unless you just give up and this is a parting shot, fine.

i'm saying if russia did it you tell me - how is that any different than what we do? the ONLY reason the left gives a flying horse shit here is cause they hate trump and this is their lifeline to being able to handle it. BAD TRUMP HACKED OUR FREEDOMS!!!!

great. if hacking a countries freedoms are so bad, why do *we* do it so often and why are *we* so hypocritical when done back to us? if you can't see both sides as wrong then - to me - that is massively hypocritical.

You have brought up a different argument altogether that I'm choosing not to get involved in. I was asking the OP why the government would frame Russia for Democratic hacks they did themselves. I never got a straight answer. At least not one I could make out.
I am choosing not to get involved with it because it is probably not "right" for us to get involved in other countries' democratic elections or overthrowing regimes unfriendly to us. However, none of us would be too unhappy if our government could figure out a way to overthrow the regime in North Korea about now. Would we?
Anyway, I think what you've brought up is what they call a "moral equivalency" argument, is it not, which is a logical fallacy? If other countries want to get p.o.'d and sanction us, call us out at the U.N., that's their right. Maybe they have. That's pretty much all I think on the topic.

to me it's the same argument. if you're going to take the side that russia hacked us, they are evil and we must prove this crime, great.

but to look away and not care when we do it?

can you honestly tell me that doesn't seem self-serving and no interest in "justice" then?

moral equiv and logical fallacy to me anymore is when a liberal is saying "i don't have a good answer, stop asking me" and nothing else. you can't go around judging morals of others and look away at your own.

if my looking back makes people nervous or upset, good.

 

[Rustic]

Hildabeast and the DNC were extraordinarily careless and corrupt with their classified material... obviously they were too incompetent to win the election… LOL

 

[OldLady]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

Maybe i would be a better conversationist if you didnt make shit up?
I wont play your strawmen game and im the asshole. Yes, thats how it works.
Ay caramba

I never called you an asshole. Tell me where you are not calling our government miserable and rotten, and tell me where your argument leads if not to defending Russia against "our" unfair attacks.

Sometimes, TN, you think everyone can follow the thoughts going on in your mind when in fact you are not always very good at communicating them to others.

 

[Rustic]

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

Maybe i would be a better conversationist if you didnt make shit up?
I wont play your strawmen game and im the asshole. Yes, thats how it works.
Ay caramba

I never called you an asshole. Tell me where you are not calling our government miserable and rotten, and tell me where your argument leads if not to defending Russia against "our" unfair attacks.

Sometimes, TN, you think everyone can follow the thoughts going on in your mind when in fact you are not always very good at communicating them to others.

The Hildabeast deserved to be in attacked in every way… Because she's a fucking loopy kunt.

 

[TNHarley]

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

Maybe i would be a better conversationist if you didnt make shit up?
I wont play your strawmen game and im the asshole. Yes, thats how it works.
Ay caramba

I never called you an asshole. Tell me where you are not calling our government miserable and rotten, and tell me where your argument leads if not to defending Russia against "our" unfair attacks.

Sometimes, TN, you think everyone can follow the thoughts going on in your mind when in fact you are not always very good at communicating them to others.

I never once implied our COUNTRY was rotten. Just the govt.
I never ONCE defended Russia. YOU MADE THAT UP. Goddamn, I even STATED I WOULDNT PUT IT PAST THEM.

Maybe so, OL. But you are clearly making shit up because your only argument is you are a sheep.

 

[OldLady]

Well, that was brave, waiting 'til I signed off to pile on, y'all.
Let me put it this way, TNHarley. You can nurse your hurt feelings that Bush told the IC to find him something on Iraq, and that the information they uncovered that led to doubts was buried or ignored. That was 15 years ago. Bush is no longer President. Some of us have tried to move on.

Your argument that once the IC has made a miscalculation, it can never be trusted again is not being "consistent." It is being unreasonable. I won't even mention all the emotional garbage you've thrown in there. Let's not throw stones about logic there, huh?

There is no reason I can see for the IC to blame Russia for hacking us and interfering with our election if they didn't do it. We don't want war this time and Trump sure as hell isn't "pushing" them for that conclusion. Our IC equally has no reason to do what you claim they've done--doing all the hacking themselves. The IC was under the control of the Democratic administration at the time. According to Repubs, it is still crawling with them and doing all in their power to take down Trump. So my question again, why would the intelligence community do this?

They wouldn't.

If you want to argue that Russia did not, despite their efforts, influence the vote, you can reasonably do that. No one can prove it one way or the other. If you want to argue that Trump was not involved, you can do that, too, although the investigation isn't actually over. You're welcome to that opinion.
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it. You can whine about this that and the other all you want, but it isn't me who's short on logic here.

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how is this defending russia? unless you just give up and this is a parting shot, fine.

i'm saying if russia did it you tell me - how is that any different than what we do? the ONLY reason the left gives a flying horse shit here is cause they hate trump and this is their lifeline to being able to handle it. BAD TRUMP HACKED OUR FREEDOMS!!!!

great. if hacking a countries freedoms are so bad, why do *we* do it so often and why are *we* so hypocritical when done back to us? if you can't see both sides as wrong then - to me - that is massively hypocritical.

You have brought up a different argument altogether that I'm choosing not to get involved in. I was asking the OP why the government would frame Russia for Democratic hacks they did themselves. I never got a straight answer. At least not one I could make out.
I am choosing not to get involved with it because it is probably not "right" for us to get involved in other countries' democratic elections or overthrowing regimes unfriendly to us. However, none of us would be too unhappy if our government could figure out a way to overthrow the regime in North Korea about now. Would we?
Anyway, I think what you've brought up is what they call a "moral equivalency" argument, is it not, which is a logical fallacy? If other countries want to get p.o.'d and sanction us, call us out at the U.N., that's their right. Maybe they have. That's pretty much all I think on the topic.

to me it's the same argument. if you're going to take the side that russia hacked us, they are evil and we must prove this crime, great.

but to look away and not care when we do it?

can you honestly tell me that doesn't seem self-serving and no interest in "justice" then?

moral equiv and logical fallacy to me anymore is when a liberal is saying "i don't have a good answer, stop asking me" and nothing else. you can't go around judging morals of others and look away at your own.

if my looking back makes people nervous or upset, good.

I suggest you start a thread on it.

 

[Rustic]

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

Maybe i would be a better conversationist if you didnt make shit up?
I wont play your strawmen game and im the asshole. Yes, thats how it works.
Ay caramba

I never called you an asshole. Tell me where you are not calling our government miserable and rotten, and tell me where your argument leads if not to defending Russia against "our" unfair attacks.

Sometimes, TN, you think everyone can follow the thoughts going on in your mind when in fact you are not always very good at communicating them to others.

I never once implied our COUNTRY was rotten. Just the govt.
I never ONCE defended Russia. YOU MADE THAT UP. Goddamn, I even STATED I WOULDNT PUT IT PAST THEM.

Maybe so, OL. But you are clearly making shit up because your only argument is you are a sheep.

No doubt
The country and the federal government or not one in the same… Obviously by their behavior

 

[iceberg]

It isnt JUST Iraq. That is just the biggest one. BILLIONS of people, multiple countries and multiple intelligence agencies were WRONG for YEARS. That caused ungodly deaths and trillions of dollars to be wasted.
CENTCOM is a failure
Pearl Harbor
Tet offensive
Iranian revolution
9/11
Would you like me to continue?
But saying the NSA or CIA hacked the DNC and Podesta and gave the info to Wikileaks to destroy the Clinton campaign, cleverly "framing" Russia for it, is absolute bullshit and you have no argument to defend it.
Now we are going to start arguing your strawmen? No thanks
Its not just the IC that cant be trusted; its the GOVERNMENT. They lie to us EVERY FUCKING DAY. Their policies are driven around greed, corporations and other special interests. They havent offered ANY proof, therefore, I cant believe them. ESPECIALLY when it something as big as calling out a foreign state. Even if it was guccifer that did it(which he has hacked bill clinton before) HOW does that equate to be it being the russian federation? NO PROOF OL. Nothing but words and assumption. If you think that is unreasonable, well, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but its true.
Weird how you ignore EVERYTHING but the govts assumption. Those assholes cant even run a hospital program for vets. They let the Post office fail. They put crack in the streets. They arm/train terrorists, they give weapons to mexican cartels, they take away rights, they spy on us, they do SO MUCH SHIT. They dont care about us. The CIA doesnt care about us. IF they did, why would they be working on ways to frame american citizens for MURDER?
But silly ol me asking for proof is UNHEARD OF
Give me a fucking break!
Excuse me for THINKING

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how is this defending russia? unless you just give up and this is a parting shot, fine.

i'm saying if russia did it you tell me - how is that any different than what we do? the ONLY reason the left gives a flying horse shit here is cause they hate trump and this is their lifeline to being able to handle it. BAD TRUMP HACKED OUR FREEDOMS!!!!

great. if hacking a countries freedoms are so bad, why do *we* do it so often and why are *we* so hypocritical when done back to us? if you can't see both sides as wrong then - to me - that is massively hypocritical.

You have brought up a different argument altogether that I'm choosing not to get involved in. I was asking the OP why the government would frame Russia for Democratic hacks they did themselves. I never got a straight answer. At least not one I could make out.
I am choosing not to get involved with it because it is probably not "right" for us to get involved in other countries' democratic elections or overthrowing regimes unfriendly to us. However, none of us would be too unhappy if our government could figure out a way to overthrow the regime in North Korea about now. Would we?
Anyway, I think what you've brought up is what they call a "moral equivalency" argument, is it not, which is a logical fallacy? If other countries want to get p.o.'d and sanction us, call us out at the U.N., that's their right. Maybe they have. That's pretty much all I think on the topic.

to me it's the same argument. if you're going to take the side that russia hacked us, they are evil and we must prove this crime, great.

but to look away and not care when we do it?

can you honestly tell me that doesn't seem self-serving and no interest in "justice" then?

moral equiv and logical fallacy to me anymore is when a liberal is saying "i don't have a good answer, stop asking me" and nothing else. you can't go around judging morals of others and look away at your own.

if my looking back makes people nervous or upset, good.

I suggest you start a thread on it.

nah - i got my answers.

just seems like we get angry at others for doing the same things we're doing. take out the politics and self-justifications, it's very...childlike?

if you saw a kid hitting a bunch of other kids and one hit him back and he started crying what would you tell him? if the action is wrong to be done to us it's just as wrong to do it to others. we can't even say we know better cause here we are, bitching about THEIR doing it.

i won't go on about how it's the other countries issue to take it to the UN if they wish, wrong is wrong, not just when complained about.

 

[OldLady]

Okay TN. Sorry you were born in such a miserable, rotten country. So defend Russia if it makes you feel more righteous. Nothing I say is going to sink into that head.

how quaint. More strawmen. Cant say anything about my post, so you create arguments so you can feel accomplished. Nice.

Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a gerbil.

Maybe i would be a better conversationist if you didnt make shit up?
I wont play your strawmen game and im the asshole. Yes, thats how it works.
Ay caramba

I never called you an asshole. Tell me where you are not calling our government miserable and rotten, and tell me where your argument leads if not to defending Russia against "our" unfair attacks.

Sometimes, TN, you think everyone can follow the thoughts going on in your mind when in fact you are not always very good at communicating them to others.

I never once implied our COUNTRY was rotten. Just the govt.
I never ONCE defended Russia. YOU MADE THAT UP. Goddamn, I even STATED I WOULDNT PUT IT PAST THEM.

Maybe so, OL. But you are clearly making shit up because your only argument is you are a sheep.

You get the last word because I'm done trying to talk to you about it. So say whatever pleases you and you can pretend you won.

 

[Marion Morrison]

If they had anything on Trump, it would have come out before the election.

He's been under surveillance since last July, about a year now. Yes Obama tried to takeover the voting process and rig it, he was stopped by the states.

That is an act of treason right there, another one in addition to trading 5 terrorist leaders in exchange for a traitor.

This Mueller investigation just may end up with Holder and Lynch in jail, and Obama impeached.