Why doesn't Atheists go away?

[Hollie]

What facts? That there are more than 4 dimensions? lol That is what you believed thanks to Einstein. You now know better, thanks to Hawking and others.
I knew better when I read John.

Sodom and Gomorrah were indeed bombed by God. While an errant asteroid could have coincidentally destroyed the 2 cities just when God said He was going to deal with them, Bible readers know that God sent that asteroid.

Here is how, use science:
God didn't destroy 2 cities. He had 5 cities on the radar, all in close proximity to the other. Scientifically, if you are correct, the asteroid blast and the heat would have destroyed them all.
BUT, God promised Abraham He would spare Abraham's nephew. Lot went to Zoar, which was in the middle of the conflagration.
Zoar being untouched during the episode would be the same as a giant nuke hitting New York City and destroying everything but Central Park.
God said He'd never let Sodom and Gomorrah be rebuilt again. Have you booked at trip to Sodom lately? Zoar on the other hand is still there. You can book a trip there to see Lot's cave.
Did you know God had that one all figured out?

The authors of that fable were likely just bombed.

or:
They were sober and so completely accurate that they made a clay reproduction of the sky complete with the asteroid, so that modern day scientists were able to go back to that day and substantiate every mark on that clay disk.

That it happened is no fable. We have proof, even down to God's prediction about the time of day He would be sending the asteroid. Our best and brightest said those stars and asteroid on that disk were in those locations right before dawn, just like God said, in "the fable".
I knew by faith that God did what He said He was going to do. And why Zoar got a reprieve. Now you too can know what happened:
Recent Scientific Evidence Of Asteroid Hitting Sodom And Gomorrah Changing The World?s Climate ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of World / Blog ??????? / ?????????? / ??? ?????
You are only allowed to perpetuate your fable premise until your own prove you wrong.
Now what?

Now what?

Now we have to chuckle at your source: Armageddon Apocalypse End of the World blog.


You know, one of the problems with the internet is that although it can be an invaluable source of data, it can also be a playground for those who post the most outrageous claims and gather an audience of conspiracy theorists all-too-willing to mouth the bait.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What facts? That there are more than 4 dimensions? lol That is what you believed thanks to Einstein. You now know better, thanks to Hawking and others.
I knew better when I read John.

Sodom and Gomorrah were indeed bombed by God. While an errant asteroid could have coincidentally destroyed the 2 cities just when God said He was going to deal with them, Bible readers know that God sent that asteroid.

Here is how, use science:
God didn't destroy 2 cities. He had 5 cities on the radar, all in close proximity to the other. Scientifically, if you are correct, the asteroid blast and the heat would have destroyed them all.
BUT, God promised Abraham He would spare Abraham's nephew. Lot went to Zoar, which was in the middle of the conflagration.
Zoar being untouched during the episode would be the same as a giant nuke hitting New York City and destroying everything but Central Park.
God said He'd never let Sodom and Gomorrah be rebuilt again. Have you booked at trip to Sodom lately? Zoar on the other hand is still there. You can book a trip there to see Lot's cave.
Did you know God had that one all figured out?

The authors of that fable were likely just bombed.

or:
They were sober and so completely accurate that they made a clay reproduction of the sky complete with the asteroid, so that modern day scientists were able to go back to that day and substantiate every mark on that clay disk.

That it happened is no fable. We have proof, even down to God's prediction about the time of day He would be sending the asteroid. Our best and brightest said those stars and asteroid on that disk were in those locations right before dawn, just like God said, in "the fable".
I knew by faith that God did what He said He was going to do. And why Zoar got a reprieve. Now you too can know what happened:
Recent Scientific Evidence Of Asteroid Hitting Sodom And Gomorrah Changing The World?s Climate ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of World / Blog ??????? / ?????????? / ??? ?????
You are only allowed to perpetuate your fable premise until your own prove you wrong.
Now what?

Hmm, no - bombed.

Three classic mistakes theists make:

1. It defies predestination: why would a deity punish the people of either city for doing exactly as the deity willed.
   
2. The deity is anthropomorphized: omnipotent entities do not feel, need, or want; they do not become angry, they have no need to punish.
   
3. The omnipotence of the deity is undermined to the point where it is not worthy of worship: consequently, religion and god are clearly creations of men, their myths, fables, and legends.

 

[newpolitics]

Most atheists are not ACTIVISTS.

Atheist ACTIVISTS are a different breed and not unlike other activists. They thrive from the attention we, and the media, feed them.

This, coming from a person whose avatars are of half-naked women... Yeah, you aren't dying for attention.

Why are you sabotaging another's thread with off-topic comments.

My avatars are an expression of my attitude, personality and sensuality. No more, no less and no big deal.

If you find them offensive or embarrassing , I suggest you do as some others and stick me on Ignore, where I fit very comfortably. I am not here for the approval of others and not about to change my 3 year style, on USMB.

"To every question you may have, you are the answer. To every problem you may have, you are the solution."

You are reading way too much into this. You made an unfounded claim about atheists wanting attention, which no doubt was meant in a pejorative sense, so my response to you is, as you read: you are an attention seeker as well. I don't care that it is an expression of your sensuality.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

why pretend the people who knew less knew more?

Why pretend they didn't? Again, Nachmanides, 1400's. No Hadron Collider. Same conclusion as Hawking.
Earth being round. etc.

Why pretend they did?

Actually, the ancient Greek philosopher Pythagoras was among the first to propose a spherical Earth in the 6th century BC, using among his proofs how the sail of a ship could be observed to disappear over the curvature of the Earth.

Plato also espoused a spherical Earth in the Phaedo, and his student Aristotle gave his reasoning in his book On the Heavens in 350 BC. His proof rested on the facts that persons living in southern lands see southern constellations higher above the horizon than those living in northern lands, that the shadow of the Earth on the Moon during a lunar eclipse is round, and that since objects fall to Earth towards its center means that if it were constructed of small bits of matter originally, these parts would naturally settle into a spherical shape. His demonstration was so compelling that a spherical Earth was the central assumption of all subsequent philosophers of the Classical era. He also used the curved phases of the moon to argue that the Moon must also be a sphere like the Earth.

Eratosthenese of Cyrene not only knew that the Earth was spherical, but managed to measure its circumference with astounding accuracy in the 3rd century BC. (28)

Then things went downhill after the advent of the Common (Christian) Era.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The authors of that fable were likely just bombed.

or:
They were sober and so completely accurate that they made a clay reproduction of the sky complete with the asteroid, so that modern day scientists were able to go back to that day and substantiate every mark on that clay disk.

That it happened is no fable. We have proof, even down to God's prediction about the time of day He would be sending the asteroid. Our best and brightest said those stars and asteroid on that disk were in those locations right before dawn, just like God said, in "the fable".
I knew by faith that God did what He said He was going to do. And why Zoar got a reprieve. Now you too can know what happened:
Recent Scientific Evidence Of Asteroid Hitting Sodom And Gomorrah Changing The World?s Climate ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of World / Blog ??????? / ?????????? / ??? ?????
You are only allowed to perpetuate your fable premise until your own prove you wrong.
Now what?

Now what?

Now we have to chuckle at your source: Armageddon Apocalypse End of the World blog.


You know, one of the problems with the internet is that although it can be an invaluable source of data, it can also be a playground for those who post the most outrageous claims and gather an audience of conspiracy theorists all-too-willing to mouth the bait.

If that made you chuckle, the woman that wrote this is a scream:

(Nancy Atkinson is Universe Today's Senior Editor. She also is the host of the NASA Lunar Science Institute podcast and works with the Astronomy Cast and 365 Days of Astronomy podcasts. Nancy is also a NASA/JPL Solar System Ambassador.)

A Cuneiform clay tablet that has puzzled researchers for over 150 years is now believed to describe an asteroid impact in 3123 BC in Austria. Researchers believe the tablet, which seemingly describes a cataclysmic event, may account for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. No mention of pillars of salt however, on the clay tablet.

Geologists discovered evidence of a giant landslide centered at Köfels, Austria back in the 19th century. At 500 meters thick and five kilometers in diameter, this landslide mystified researchers trying to figure out why such an event occurred. Some researchers thought the landslide may have been caused by a meteorite impact, because of the evidence of crushing pressures and explosions. But there was no crater, so it didn’t look as an impact site should, and the impact theory fell out of favor. But researchers knew this wasn’t just an ordinary landslide.

But new research brings the impact theory back into play. It centers on another 19th century mystery, a Cuneiform tablet in the British Museum, known as “the Planisphere”. It was found in the remains of the library in the Royal Place at Nineveh, and was made by an Assyrian scribe around 700 BC. It is an astronomical work with drawings of constellations and the text has known constellation names. The clay tablet has attracted a lot of attention but until now no one has come up with a convincing explanation as to what it is.

Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell from Bristol University used computer programs to simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago to establish what the Planisphere tablet refers to. It is a copy of the night notebook of a Sumerian astronomer as he records the events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC (Julian calendar). Half the tablet records planet positions and cloud cover, but the other half of the tablet records an object large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space. The astronomer made an accurate note of its trajectory relative to the stars, which to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels.

The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometer in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbits close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels. The incoming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain near the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometers from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point. As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, about five kilometers in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverized the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater.


Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, added, “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt. The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material – including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.”


The full translation of the tablet together with the analysis supporting these conclusions can be found in the book, “A Sumerian Observation of the Kofels’ Impact Event”

(by Bond and Hempsell.)


As for MY source:
Genesis 19: 21-29
21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar, and still is called Zoar)

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

 

[tjvh]

Atheists are just assholes who go out of their way to get into other people's business.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Why pretend they did?

Actually, the ancient Greek philosopher Pythagoras was among the first to propose........

Isa 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Pythagoras — Date of Birth: 570 BC
The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.
And look. Dimensions! Stretched out, and spread.........

 

[The Irish Ram]

The authors of that fable were likely just bombed.

or:
They were sober and so completely accurate that they made a clay reproduction of the sky complete with the asteroid, so that modern day scientists were able to go back to that day and substantiate every mark on that clay disk.

That it happened is no fable. We have proof, even down to God's prediction about the time of day He would be sending the asteroid. Our best and brightest said those stars and asteroid on that disk were in those locations right before dawn, just like God said, in "the fable".
I knew by faith that God did what He said He was going to do. And why Zoar got a reprieve. Now you too can know what happened:
Recent Scientific Evidence Of Asteroid Hitting Sodom And Gomorrah Changing The World?s Climate ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of World / Blog ??????? / ?????????? / ??? ?????
You are only allowed to perpetuate your fable premise until your own prove you wrong.
Now what?

Hmm, no - bombed.

Three classic mistakes theists make:

1. It defies predestination: why would a deity punish the people of either city for doing exactly as the deity willed.
   
2. The deity is anthropomorphized: omnipotent entities do not feel, need, or want; they do not become angry, they have no need to punish.
   
3. The omnipotence of the deity is undermined to the point where it is not worthy of worship: consequently, religion and god are clearly creations of men, their myths, fables, and legends.

um no- intellects. Now you. Map the planetary system tonight on a clay plate, with a stick and within an accuracy of 1 degree.

Three classic mistakes atheists make:
1. They don't read the Bible
2. They don't understand the Bible
3. They rely on Hawking

 

[The Irish Ram]

Atheists are just assholes who go out of their way to get into other people's business.

lol. There's a foxhole out there for them somewhere.....

 

[Hollie]

Why pretend they did?

Actually, the ancient Greek philosopher Pythagoras was among the first to propose........

Isa 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Pythagoras — Date of Birth: 570 BC
The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.
And look. Dimensions! Stretched out, and spread.........

And look: "who stretches out the heavens like a curtain".

Yes, very much a flat earth worldview. I think you have thoroughly dismantled your own argument.

 

[Hollie]

or:
They were sober and so completely accurate that they made a clay reproduction of the sky complete with the asteroid, so that modern day scientists were able to go back to that day and substantiate every mark on that clay disk.

That it happened is no fable. We have proof, even down to God's prediction about the time of day He would be sending the asteroid. Our best and brightest said those stars and asteroid on that disk were in those locations right before dawn, just like God said, in "the fable".
I knew by faith that God did what He said He was going to do. And why Zoar got a reprieve. Now you too can know what happened:
Recent Scientific Evidence Of Asteroid Hitting Sodom And Gomorrah Changing The World?s Climate ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of World / Blog ??????? / ?????????? / ??? ?????
You are only allowed to perpetuate your fable premise until your own prove you wrong.
Now what?

Hmm, no - bombed.

Three classic mistakes theists make:

1. It defies predestination: why would a deity punish the people of either city for doing exactly as the deity willed.
   
2. The deity is anthropomorphized: omnipotent entities do not feel, need, or want; they do not become angry, they have no need to punish.
   
3. The omnipotence of the deity is undermined to the point where it is not worthy of worship: consequently, religion and god are clearly creations of men, their myths, fables, and legends.

um no- intellects. Now you. Map the planetary system tonight on a clay plate, with a stick and within an accuracy of 1 degree.

Three classic mistakes atheists make:
1. They don't read the Bible
2. They don't understand the Bible
3. They rely on Hawking

Who are you claiming mapped the planetary system on a clay plate, with a stick and within an accuracy of 1 degree?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Why pretend they did?

Actually, the ancient Greek philosopher Pythagoras was among the first to propose........

Isa 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Pythagoras — Date of Birth: 570 BC
The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.
And look. Dimensions! Stretched out, and spread.........

And look: "who stretches out the heavens like a curtain".

Yes, very much a flat earth worldview. I think you have thoroughly dismantled your own argument.

You're a little short on understanding.
The "He" who sits, is also the "He" who spreads and stretches. You don't think the inhabitants did it do you, or that the inhabitants were actually grasshoppers?

very much a flat earth worldview

I'll bet the "4 corners of the earth" as described in the Bible throws you off too.

You have offered up not one thing that puts a dent in the Bible. Your Pythagoras was a fail by a few hundred years. The tired old, it's a fable thing, doesn't work in the face of evidence.
And your personal attacks don't interfere in the least with Biblical fact, so my argument stands on it's own merit, and I didn't have to insult you or your beliefs to get there.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi all

Your favorite non-believer is here to present you with a most subtle question!!

No--it is not "does a chimera bombinating in a vacuum devours second intentions?" But "Why don't Atheists go away?"

I know--my ability to question the most obvious of obvious is a much desired talent!! No need for the applauses!

I think it is due to atheists love of Christian myths!! Look--they do not attack any other religious thoughts, right? No attacks on Moses splitting the red sea, no attacks on Mohammed going to heaven while standing on a rock--no attack on Apollo riding in the sky in a golden chariot, no attacks on the Buddha talking to serpents about what to do with his enlightenment.

Nope, none, not a!!

So it has to be the love of christian Myths!! What do you think?

Atheists and nontheists / secular gentiles serve as a healthy check on faith-based approaches. the truth should satisfy both standards of criteria for judging and proving.

the two approaches help and complement each other; both are necessary or why would they continue to exist - clearly they serve a purpose.

1. as for debunking symbolic myths, this proves these are not necessary to believe in but the true message is independent of the external accoutrements of cultural traditions
2. one area where secular science offers helpful support is proving that spiritual healing follows a natural process that can be measured or documented medically; so here it helps to have ppl who study phenomena objectively by empirical evidence not just faith-based

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

or:
They were sober and so completely accurate that they made a clay reproduction of the sky complete with the asteroid, so that modern day scientists were able to go back to that day and substantiate every mark on that clay disk.

That it happened is no fable. We have proof, even down to God's prediction about the time of day He would be sending the asteroid. Our best and brightest said those stars and asteroid on that disk were in those locations right before dawn, just like God said, in "the fable".
I knew by faith that God did what He said He was going to do. And why Zoar got a reprieve. Now you too can know what happened:
Recent Scientific Evidence Of Asteroid Hitting Sodom And Gomorrah Changing The World?s Climate ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? | Armageddon / Apocalypse / End Of World / Blog ??????? / ?????????? / ??? ?????
You are only allowed to perpetuate your fable premise until your own prove you wrong.
Now what?

Hmm, no - bombed.

Three classic mistakes theists make:

1. It defies predestination: why would a deity punish the people of either city for doing exactly as the deity willed.
   
2. The deity is anthropomorphized: omnipotent entities do not feel, need, or want; they do not become angry, they have no need to punish.
   
3. The omnipotence of the deity is undermined to the point where it is not worthy of worship: consequently, religion and god are clearly creations of men, their myths, fables, and legends.

um no- intellects. Now you. Map the planetary system tonight on a clay plate, with a stick and within an accuracy of 1 degree.

Three classic mistakes atheists make:
1. They don't read the Bible
2. They don't understand the Bible
3. They rely on Hawking

Uh, huh, cute…

But you didn’t address the three classic mistakes theists make, which is okay, no one expects you to.

 

[emilynghiem]

Isa 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Pythagoras — Date of Birth: 570 BC
The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.
And look. Dimensions! Stretched out, and spread.........

And look: "who stretches out the heavens like a curtain".

Yes, very much a flat earth worldview. I think you have thoroughly dismantled your own argument.

You're a little short on understanding.
The "He" who sits, is also the "He" who spreads and stretches. You don't think the inhabitants did it do you, or that the inhabitants were actually grasshoppers?

very much a flat earth worldview

I'll bet the "4 corners of the earth" as described in the Bible throws you off too.

You have offered up not one thing that puts a dent in the Bible. Your Pythagoras was a fail by a few hundred years. The tired old, it's a fable thing, doesn't work in the face of evidence.
And your personal attacks don't interfere in the least with Biblical fact, so my argument stands on it's own merit, and I didn't have to insult you or your beliefs to get there.

Seriously Hollie and Irish, though I personally appreciate reading these historic and Biblical references, from where I am sitting at my laptop, I cannot tell or prove if the world is round, square, flat or poised on the back of a turtle held up by four elephants.

It still does not affect my faith in the message in the Bible that forgiveness brings salvation.
not haggling over the letter of the law which doesn't free anyone from the conflicts you will find there, obviously. Forgiveness is what frees us from these traps we lay ourselves.

You are both knowledgeable and intelligent in your criticisms.
Can we please stop this, and focus on what we agree to be true and helpful to grow in positive directions; not fight over what is false or fictitious that does not matter if it's false.

If ppl in the past could not drop false theories they were teaching, it was because of this same shame-based approach of blasting ppl for being wrong where they feared change but stayed stuck in denial for fear of losing credibility and authority. So why keep this same attitude if THAT is what fuels problems with willful ignorance and denial in the first place?

If that is causing the problems you're so against, why keep pushing against each other this way? If you want things to change, shouldn't we try a different approach that WELCOMES and rewards change, instead of blasting and blaming each other where nothing changes.
Is this what you want? To stay stuck like the people who kept teaching things the wrong way cuz that's how they've always done it. Really?

 

[emilynghiem]

Hmm, no - bombed.

Three classic mistakes theists make:

1. It defies predestination: why would a deity punish the people of either city for doing exactly as the deity willed.
   
2. The deity is anthropomorphized: omnipotent entities do not feel, need, or want; they do not become angry, they have no need to punish.
   
3. The omnipotence of the deity is undermined to the point where it is not worthy of worship: consequently, religion and god are clearly creations of men, their myths, fables, and legends.

um no- intellects. Now you. Map the planetary system tonight on a clay plate, with a stick and within an accuracy of 1 degree.

Three classic mistakes atheists make:
1. They don't read the Bible
2. They don't understand the Bible
3. They rely on Hawking

Uh, huh, cute…

But you didn’t address the three classic mistakes theists make, which is okay, no one expects you to.

OK I have no problem addressing these 3 points, and i will even add a 4th:

1. God's will predetermined vs free will of man being punished even though it's God's will

instead of viewing it as punishment, the suffering of death disease and war are natural consequences of the laws of cause and effect, or the laws of karma and justice.
basically you get back what you give in life.
if you live by retributive justice and wish ill will on others,
yes, god's universal laws of justice mean you get that back in return
if you live by forgiveness of others as you ask forgiveness yourself, that's restorative justice where ppl can correct wrongs together instead of dividing bullying and blaming in conflict.
so again you get the type of justice you give and live by.

it is not god's ideal will that we keep suffering the vicious cycle of retribution
but god made us with consciences that use free will and reason to learn the difference based on the consequences we experience so we choose what brings peace and ends suffering. eventually by free will, trial and error, we learn to forgive in order to correct problems together to bring lasting peace and justice. in order to stop the same suffering from repeating we eventually choose the path of restorative justice which brings peace over retributive justice which kills relations and humanity with death and war.

2. god does not need to be anthropomorphized. this symbolism helps to explain relations between the higher source of all life and truth which is infinite and finite humanity on earth, but is not necessary. you can believe in aspects attributed to god such as life, truth, wisdom, love, and still agree this points to the same higher source whether personified or not. it's still the same concept no matter how this is expressed or symbolized, does not need personification. the main point to understand in the relationship is based on forgiveness love and grace, not judgment and punishment.

personal note: i have quite a few atheist/nontheist friends who believe in restorative justice without needing to believe in a personified god,
so i find this forgiveness factor is the key issue that allows us to align our views of truth, not whether god is abstract or in a humanized form.

3. the expressions are relative to man and different cultures; clearly these symbolic systems are going to be limited since god represents infinite love and truth so this cannot be defined fully using limited human perception and language. however faulty the systems are, the god and concepts they represent can still remain universal. for example the concept of justice is greater than any system of man which has failed to bring this in full. but we still use these systems to express the ideals we strive for though not attained yet.

the religions and laws are not the part to be worshipped. the point is the higher principles beyond just the words and symbolism. these values of universal truth and justice belong to all ppl of all views including secular humanists, nontheists and even atheists.

4. the fault i do find most common is where ppl claim to understand god and jesus as lord or universal law for all humanity; but then leave out nontheists secular gentiles and others out of salvation rejecting them for not believing in divine laws. this contradicts the meaning of jesus as symbolizing justice for all ppl of all tribes, especially both folds of the same flock the gentiles under natural laws and the churched believers under scriptural laws.

so to correct this misteaching, that's where i explain in order for jesus to be the messiah or message of justice for all humanity, his governance and salvation must equally include the nontheists from buddhists to atheists etc, under natural and civil laws and secular laws of science and spcial psychology, and cannot leave out the other fold of the one flock.

this correction does not discredit theological approaches but resolves the conflict so this is a valid approach for explaining universal laws and spiritual process for all humanity, theists and nontheists both without conflict. the same god or source of divine laws would also be the same for natural laws of creation if there is only one god or source for all things in life.

does this help to address and resolve your three points plus the fourth i added as well?

 

[emilynghiem]

Why does your word of the "existence of God" override the lack of hard empirical evidence?

It's the faith. It's less about hard data and more about simply "knowing" that the Bible is true. That's one of the things that doesn't sit well with me. I can't disprove the existence of the Divine any more than I can make the Theory of Gravity a Law.

Dear DT and GLensather:
1. by the time we can arrive at a consensus on the meaning of God as universal,
it WILL be like the laws of gravity, or something we take for granted and don't necessarily ask for proof anymore. As long as we understand we are talking about the same thing, and how these laws work in practice (either divine laws or natural laws) then there is no argument.

We don't insult or attack each if one person sees the world in black and white, another sees all colors, and someone else can't distinguish reds and greens; we understand the difference is in our perception and how we process information,though we are still looking at the same objects and just don't see them the same way. The same with whatever we are calling that comes from the same source or God, either laws of life or truth or love,
wisdom or whatever laws we deem to be universal and applying to all humanity.

2. as for the Bible, it's not so much proving the literal content is accurate here or there, but understanding what the overall message means in spirit. If the Bible represents the whole of human spiritual history, and the patterns of ups and downs before recovery from past injustice and full maturity in a state of lasting peace, then what does that mean to each person? the secular gentiles who see the world and its workings in terms of natural law and science may see something totally different in the Bible than others who feel connected to divine spiritual laws and respond to scripture differently. So whatever truth the Bible represents, in order for this to be truly universal, must apply to people of both branches.

I believe a consensus can be formed, by diverse groups working together, not at odds.
I believe a different approach to resolving conflicts will yield a different result in conclusion.

Thank you and I hope to discuss with you further
if you are are interested. I believe a consensus on God
is faster to reach than a consensus on law because
religion is on a theoretical level of free choice in the mind to change one's
interpretation, but trying to resolve political issues gets entangled in real
life conditions that are already set in stone and harder to change.

I believe both will eventually become necessary in order to have peace on the
planet, but a consensus on God will probably be needed to establish unity first
between groups, in order for consensus on laws in the real world to follow in turn.

 

[HUGGY]

Why doesn't Atheists go away?

If one believes the universe is expanding..even accelerating in it's expansion then the big bang seems a certainty. If the big bang happened as most scientists who study such things believe then there could not possibly be a god. The bang was a completely disorganized phenomenon. There was no apparent control of that event. God appeared only in the imaginations of frightened humans. First there were simple multiples of so called higher beings or influences that humans attributed to weather and disasters that were unexplainable. Then some humans were assumed to have some communication with these unseen powers. Voila...religion. Sacrifice. Payment to those "divine" go betweens. Personal advice concerning the future. If you think some people are ignorant now... Imagine how bad it was when 99.9% of the population could not read. The printing press was invented in 1445 by a German named Guetenburg. Before that books were hand written. Copies were hand written. Only wealthy people of the time could afford scribes and religious servants(monks..etc..) were tasked with hand writing and copying.

During most of the existance of human culture there was no such thing as free speach. Non believers were typically killed. The various religions were all violently jealous of thier "truth". The right to not believe is very recent. There are no cathederals and vast treasuries and grants of land for atheists. It takes a strong will to stand up to that much power and peer pressure. It has been only the last couple of hundred plus years where individuals were not considered the property of the state or the kingdoms within a state.

Now just VERY recently the worlds populations have free access to most known information. The "genie" is out of the bottle.

 

[amrchaos]

Atheist doesn't afraid of anything.

I fear man--some humans are dangerous to other humans

 

[Derideo_Te]

Hi all

Your favorite non-believer is here to present you with a most subtle question!!

No--it is not "does a chimera bombinating in a vacuum devours second intentions?" But "Why don't Atheists go away?"

I know--my ability to question the most obvious of obvious is a much desired talent!! No need for the applauses!

I think it is due to atheists love of Christian myths!! Look--they do not attack any other religious thoughts, right? No attacks on Moses splitting the red sea, no attacks on Mohammed going to heaven while standing on a rock--no attack on Apollo riding in the sky in a golden chariot, no attacks on the Buddha talking to serpents about what to do with his enlightenment.

Nope, none, not a!!

So it has to be the love of christian Myths!! What do you think?

Atheists and nontheists / secular gentiles serve as a healthy check on faith-based approaches. the truth should satisfy both standards of criteria for judging and proving.

the two approaches help and complement each other; both are necessary or why would they continue to exist - clearly they serve a purpose.

1. as for debunking symbolic myths, this proves these are not necessary to believe in but the true message is independent of the external accoutrements of cultural traditions
2. one area where secular science offers helpful support is proving that spiritual healing follows a natural process that can be measured or documented medically; so here it helps to have ppl who study phenomena objectively by empirical evidence not just faith-based

Dear Emily,

People who have Near Death Experiences (NDE) and relate what they experienced as "heaven" are infrequent but they do occur and could be the basis for some of what is described in the Bible. However when an NDE happens to someone who is/was a professed Agnostic/Atheist and who relates the experience the Believers all point to this and claim that they must be right about the existence of "heaven". What they are missing is that if Atheists and Agnostics are also ending up in "heaven" then there has to be an "alternate path" that they are taking to get there. So perhaps Atheists and Agnostics are a "reality check" when it comes to "faith-based judging".