Why I Could Never Be GOP or Libertarian

[Mr.Nick]

Oh yeah, I read this one and am reading it again too..

This is a super rare book BTW..... I got it at a garage sale for .50 cents and it is worth like $500.00.

There is some pretty radical shit in this book... It pertains to Bill Ayers, the Weather Underground and the SDS... It reads more like a manifesto tho.....

 

[sealybobo]

Wrong again, tough-guy. I don't recall ever starting a thread just to say (insert whiny voice here) "I could never be a democrat because they are all just such stinky poopy-heads! I don't like them and the good people I know don't like them. Did I mention they are stinky poopy-heads? Eeeewwww...." the way you did here from far-left land. I don't recall starting endless troll threads along the lines of "Let's discuss why democrats are so bad and we are so good!" the way you and so many of your hyper-partisan ilk do around here every-fucking-day.

And I strongly believe everything I say. Because its true. And next week I'm going to an Obama rally and we are going to start making calls for him. I can't wait to help. We can not have the GOP appoint another Citizens United Supreme Court justice. The next president is going to appoint 2 or 3 justices. It can't be another 3 right wingers. That will be the end of the middle class as we know it. Back to right before the Great Depression, and into the next one. Because the Recession Obama walked into was Bush's, most people understand that, and most people are going to realize Romney is even more right on the issues than Bush was.

Let GM go bankrupt? Great bumper sticker Willard Romney. Did you know that's his first name? Willard?

Yes GM should have gone bankrupt and been reorganized into stronger leaner and more competitive company. Right now GM sales are up, but most of that is due to sales to China and India.
We take the White House and shut down the scourge of liberalism for the next few decades.
Your side had it's chance but failed to improve anything. In fact the country is in worse shape. So much for hopey changey.

Your position on GM is very unpopular. Romney shares your feelings. We love that!

And I understand this is the official montra of the right, for now at least. To keep saying that Obama hasn't done a good job, even though he took us from losing 700,000 jobs a month to gaining 300,000. And the number would be 600k a month if the GOP didn't make all those cuts so they could give the tax breaks to the rich and corporations. And doing away with collective bargaining. And social security, medicare and tax breaks to the rich. You guys are winning on all these issues.

Fed issues more optimistic forecast for economy, jobs

And look. Only 30% agree with you

The economy? It’s still Bush’s fault - The Washington Post

 

[sealybobo]

Oh yeah, I read this one and am reading it again too..

This is a super rare book BTW..... I got it at a garage sale for .50 cents and it is worth like $500.00.

There is some pretty radical shit in this book... It pertains to Bill Ayers, the Weather Underground and the SDS... It reads more like a manifesto tho.....

Well you should also read about the Illuminati and if you want some real good right wing reading, find something from the Klan.

Or Tim McVeigh, your hero.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The every man for himself way is the GOP way. Even Ron Paul. The Democratic way is that we are all in this together.

For example, us liberals and most Americans agree that government should invest in schools. But since Reagan, we have stopped. And now the cost of college is out of control.

And your "keep governments hands off my healthcare" attitude allowed the cost of healthcare to get out of control.

And allowing oil speculators on Wallstreet add $12-$20 per fill up on to the cost of gas???

This is what your free markets will produce. A small rich ruling class, a small merchantile class and a big working poor class.

In a May 25, 2001 interview, Grover Norquist told National Public Radio's Mara Liasson, "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

'You Can't Govern if You Don't Believe in Government'

Educate yourself with something from the left. Broaden your mind. Open it. Stop being brainwashed.

Ok if not free and open markets, what is your suggestion...Government price fixing?
Great. When the cost to produce exceeds the government mandated ceiling on a product, then what? The answer is simple. Rationing. Real smart.
If you are old enough to remember Nixon and Carter who mandated wage and price controls, miles long gas lines, and gas rationing. And massive inflation as well as sky high interest rates for consumer loans. Home ownership stagnated as mortgages could not be had for under 15%. Banks were charging each other 10% for money. The economy stagnant.
Do you really think equality of outcome will work? See the former Soviet Union. FAIL.

Never free markets. Fair markets. Don't over regulate but regulate. At least on things like gas. If the CEO's pay just went up 100%, somethings not right. Especially when we are subsodizing them. We could go back and forth and on and on. I can not reply to your reply because its just all nonsense. What I understand is that we have two sets of history books. The right's version of what has occured over the last 100 years and the lefts. Your facts don't give with reality. But its too much to prove if you are as far gone as you seem. Just vote Romney and be done with it.

Once again..I ask you to define "fair"...And don't give me examples of what you think is "fair". DEFINE fair. Not the Webster's version either.
You people throw around the word "fair" more often than a virgin says "no"..After a while the word has no meaning.
Since you opened the door and used gas as an example, I will narrow it down for you. What in your learned opinion would be a "fair" market for gas?
BTW I thought you lefties were anti fossil fuel. So why would you want less expensive gasoline?
Ya can't have it both ways, sweetie.
You think my post is nonsense because you have no substantive rebuttal. Because you cannot regurgitate liberal talking points in response, you state it to be nonsense. Do try to keep up.
Which history books are those?..Look, you cannot create your own reality and expect the rest of us to simply accept it because it makes you feel comfortable.
What in the hell difference does it make to you or anyone else how much someone is paid? Really. In what way are you affected?
Subsidizing whom?....What? Links to facts please?
No, you don't get off that easily.
You made these statements. Now have the spine to stand by them. You don't get to come on to a public forum, post and pass your opinions off as fact.
I really don't give a shit for whom you vote. If you think Obama is a good President, go ahead and vote for him. If you really believe he is on your side and is looking out for you, vote for him. It is painfully obvious your love and admiration for the Chosen One is due to your undying hope that Obama may just have the slightest chance of bringing you your much desired socialist utopia. Good luck with that.
Obama has already divided black people from all other races. A second term will have all kinds of groups at each other's throats.
Is THAT the kind of nation in which you wish to live?

 

[Mr.Nick]

Oh yeah, I read this one and am reading it again too..

This is a super rare book BTW..... I got it at a garage sale for .50 cents and it is worth like $500.00.

There is some pretty radical shit in this book... It pertains to Bill Ayers, the Weather Underground and the SDS... It reads more like a manifesto tho.....

Well you should also read about the Illuminati and if you want some real good right wing reading, find something from the Klan.

Or Tim McVeigh, your hero.

I've already read all that nonsense...

The Builderberg group, NWO, the Illuminati etc.... Alex Jones videos...

I totally agree with some of it.... Then you have delusional clowns like David Ike who believe everyone is a reptilian alien...

As far as McVeigh - I have read the "Turner Diaries."...

 

[Unkotare]

That socialist crack is all the proof I need you are swallowing the GOP's lies and propoganda. You are the low information voter they pray on. What's your wedge issue? God, Gays or Guns? Socialism. You swallowed that bullshit? What is this the 1950s? Are Americans still this gullable? Apparenly so. Are you from the south?

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

 

[sealybobo]

Ok if not free and open markets, what is your suggestion...Government price fixing?
Great. When the cost to produce exceeds the government mandated ceiling on a product, then what? The answer is simple. Rationing. Real smart.
If you are old enough to remember Nixon and Carter who mandated wage and price controls, miles long gas lines, and gas rationing. And massive inflation as well as sky high interest rates for consumer loans. Home ownership stagnated as mortgages could not be had for under 15%. Banks were charging each other 10% for money. The economy stagnant.
Do you really think equality of outcome will work? See the former Soviet Union. FAIL.

Never free markets. Fair markets. Don't over regulate but regulate. At least on things like gas. If the CEO's pay just went up 100%, somethings not right. Especially when we are subsodizing them. We could go back and forth and on and on. I can not reply to your reply because its just all nonsense. What I understand is that we have two sets of history books. The right's version of what has occured over the last 100 years and the lefts. Your facts don't give with reality. But its too much to prove if you are as far gone as you seem. Just vote Romney and be done with it.

Once again..I ask you to define "fair"...And don't give me examples of what you think is "fair". DEFINE fair. Not the Webster's version either.
You people throw around the word "fair" more often than a virgin says "no"..After a while the word has no meaning.
Since you opened the door and used gas as an example, I will narrow it down for you. What in your learned opinion would be a "fair" market for gas?
BTW I thought you lefties were anti fossil fuel. So why would you want less expensive gasoline?
Ya can't have it both ways, sweetie.
You think my post is nonsense because you have no substantive rebuttal. Because you cannot regurgitate liberal talking points in response, you state it to be nonsense. Do try to keep up.
Which history books are those?..Look, you cannot create your own reality and expect the rest of us to simply accept it because it makes you feel comfortable.
What in the hell difference does it make to you or anyone else how much someone is paid? Really. In what way are you affected?
Subsidizing whom?....What? Links to facts please?
No, you don't get off that easily.
You made these statements. Now have the spine to stand by them. You don't get to come on to a public forum, post and pass your opinions off as fact.
I really don't give a shit for whom you vote. If you think Obama is a good President, go ahead and vote for him. If you really believe he is on your side and is looking out for you, vote for him. It is painfully obvious your love and admiration for the Chosen One is due to your undying hope that Obama may just have the slightest chance of bringing you your much desired socialist utopia. Good luck with that.
Obama has already divided black people from all other races. A second term will have all kinds of groups at each other's throats.
Is THAT the kind of nation in which you wish to live?

Every other nation put in safeguards to protect their vital industries when they signed up for NAFTA and CAFTA and now the Columbia one Obama is signing. Everyone except the USA.

We use to only outsource shoes and copiers. What's the right amount? Certainly not what we have now. We need to protect car manufacturing middle class union jobs for sure because they are vital to the middle class.

I remember Bush tried to let Mexican truck drivers in to kill the truck driving industry. Was that going too far? I think so.

And the Bush regime allowed China to flood the US market with their tires. They sent too many in and it jeopordized the American Tire Manufacturing Industry.

I can tell you I have been following the subject closely for over 20 years and the GOP have gone too far with free trade. And their defense is that Clinton signed NAFTA. That makes me so angry when that's all they can say. I know. The fucking asshole. But I don't think he had a choice. I think NAFTA was a thing that Robber Barons insisted on and it was going to happen no matter what.

And you can't say unions didn't warn you what would happen.

 

[thereisnospoon]

That socialist crack is all the proof I need you are swallowing the GOP's lies and propoganda. You are the low information voter they pray on. What's your wedge issue? God, Gays or Guns? Socialism. You swallowed that bullshit? What is this the 1950s? Are Americans still this gullable? Apparenly so. Are you from the south?

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

Boo Boo has been promoting socialism on here since her first post.

 

[sealybobo]

That socialist crack is all the proof I need you are swallowing the GOP's lies and propoganda. You are the low information voter they pray on. What's your wedge issue? God, Gays or Guns? Socialism. You swallowed that bullshit? What is this the 1950s? Are Americans still this gullable? Apparenly so. Are you from the south?

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

Here you are, face to face with a liberal who aint afraid to admit it or fight back when you bullies attack with your lies and false propoganda.

I'll stop when you admit I'm right.

 

[sealybobo]

That socialist crack is all the proof I need you are swallowing the GOP's lies and propoganda. You are the low information voter they pray on. What's your wedge issue? God, Gays or Guns? Socialism. You swallowed that bullshit? What is this the 1950s? Are Americans still this gullable? Apparenly so. Are you from the south?

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

Boo Boo has been promoting socialism on here since her first post.

Never. I only say that there is no such thing as a free market. Markets are the creation of government. And the middle class is the creation of liberal policies. Unions, labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, sick days, vacation days, etc. Free markets didn't produce these things.

Government is the referee. And we all know without rules there is kaos. So what Republicans want is for government to stop enforcing the rules and let corporations decide how much they pay their workers and if they manufacture overseas.

But they want to use our roads, bridges, court systems, military, educated workforce paid for by the public school system.

No one wants socialism, except for maybe the healthcare and oil industries. They have gotten out of control. If we don't nationalize them, they at least need to be more heavily regulated.

The GOP do reverse socialism. They socialize the losses and privatize all the profits. Perfect example are the private contractors in Iraq. Who are they defending? The oil companies.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

Boo Boo has been promoting socialism on here since her first post.

Never. I only say that there is no such thing as a free market. Markets are the creation of government. And the middle class is the creation of liberal policies. Unions, labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, sick days, vacation days, etc. Free markets didn't produce these things.

Government is the referee. And we all know without rules there is kaos. So what Republicans want is for government to stop enforcing the rules and let corporations decide how much they pay their workers and if they manufacture overseas.

But they want to use our roads, bridges, court systems, military, educated workforce paid for by the public school system.

No one wants socialism, except for maybe the healthcare and oil industries. They have gotten out of control. If we don't nationalize them, they at least need to be more heavily regulated.

The GOP do reverse socialism. They socialize the losses and privatize all the profits. Perfect example are the private contractors in Iraq. Who are they defending? The oil companies.

Governments don't create "markets.".....

Well, I suppose socialism is naturally a dictated or "planned economy," but capitalism isn't (or at least shouldn't be, or wasn't intended to be)...

 

[thereisnospoon]

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

Boo Boo has been promoting socialism on here since her first post.

Never. I only say that there is no such thing as a free market. Markets are the creation of government. And the middle class is the creation of liberal policies. Unions, labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, sick days, vacation days, etc. Free markets didn't produce these things.

Government is the referee. And we all know without rules there is kaos. So what Republicans want is for government to stop enforcing the rules and let corporations decide how much they pay their workers and if they manufacture overseas.

But they want to use our roads, bridges, court systems, military, educated workforce paid for by the public school system.

No one wants socialism, except for maybe the healthcare and oil industries. They have gotten out of control. If we don't nationalize them, they at least need to be more heavily regulated.

The GOP do reverse socialism. They socialize the losses and privatize all the profits. Perfect example are the private contractors in Iraq. Who are they defending? The oil companies.

HUH? Government created the marketplace?..Umm WRONG....When the first European settlers arrived here, they began trading with the Indians. Was THAT set up by government? When I perform a task for someone in exchange for compensation, is that a function of government?
You are a very ill informed individual. Government regulates trade. It does not create it.
Stop with the middle class bang the union drum nonsense. Just stop it.
Our nation is a creation of it's people and the God given freedoms we have to create, achieve and succeed. We also have the freedom to make poor choices. That's life. Personal responsibility to accept the consequences of poor choices and to receive the rewards for good choices. Your side seeks to destroy this system with the idea of absolute equality. That idea is incompatible with freedom and liberty. It crushes individual choice and destroys rights.
In case you have no noticed, unions are on their way out. Unions are no longer needed. They wore out their welcome as we realized they were just another business model. An archaic outdated system of collectivsm which promotes complacency and mediocrity.
The only people involved with unions who are getting rich are the union bosses. And like any other business, unions operate in their own self interest.
92% of us do just fine without unions. I would not join a union if it were the last club on earth.
What is your obsession with the energy industry? The same as Obama's? The desire to destroy it?
Obama energy policies have already caused dozen of oil rigs to leave the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Obama policies have made it so expensive to refine oil into other products that we've lost over one million barrels of gasoline production due to refinery closures.
Which private contractors in Iraq?
Name them.

 

[thereisnospoon]

That socialist crack is all the proof I need you are swallowing the GOP's lies and propoganda. You are the low information voter they pray on. What's your wedge issue? God, Gays or Guns? Socialism. You swallowed that bullshit? What is this the 1950s? Are Americans still this gullable? Apparenly so. Are you from the south?

Could you be any more of a fucking cliche? Take off the big shoes, park the tiny car, wipe off the make-up and STOP BEING SUCH A FUCKING CLOWN.

Here you are, face to face with a liberal who aint afraid to admit it or fight back when you bullies attack with your lies and false propoganda.

I'll stop when you admit I'm right.

You are fighting a losing battle. You stand in the middle of a crowded room screaming that it is you who are the only one with the right opinions and everyone else is wrong.
No one is listening. And when the hors devours run out, the room becomes quiet. Except for the one voice who still mumbles to themself, that they have the only correct opinion.
You are not fighting back. You simply are arguing to argue. You present nothing but hyperbole and liberal pap. Not one time have you presented a link or written fact. You get your information from sources such as "commondreams.com"..Now what the hell is that?
Because we present arguments that are rooted in fact and your position is indefensible, you refer to us as "bullies". A bully is one who picks on a weaker person out of pure meanness. Is that what you consider yourself, weak?

 

[Harry Dresden]

I want to hear from middle class and poor Ron Paul supporters. I want to hear how they think they will benefit from an every man for himself society. From what I can tell his approach would produce a small upper class and the middle class will become the working poor.

People don't realize it was liberal labor laws, FDR New Deal, tariffs and unions that produced the huge middle class we enjoyed for the last 50 years. It wasn't unregulated free trade. Unregulated Free trade sent 7 million good paying jobs out of the country because we make too much. And Ron Paul wants to double down on the idea? He and Paul Ryan are no different. Bad for America. Not the top 1% but the rest of us, BAD.

Where did you get the idea that the US is an "every man for himself" nation?
That presupposes the absence of government.
Stupid notion. Stop it.
Just because a country is built on individual achievement and the freedom of each of us to reach our potential does not make us selfish. It makes us great

The every man for himself way is the GOP way. Even Ron Paul. The Democratic way is that we are all in this together.

For example, us liberals and most Americans agree that government should invest in schools. But since Reagan, we have stopped. And now the cost of college is out of control.

And your "keep governments hands off my healthcare" attitude allowed the cost of healthcare to get out of control.

And allowing oil speculators on Wallstreet add $12-$20 per fill up on to the cost of gas???

This is what your free markets will produce. A small rich ruling class, a small merchantile class and a big working poor class.

In a May 25, 2001 interview, Grover Norquist told National Public Radio's Mara Liasson, "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

'You Can't Govern if You Don't Believe in Government'

Educate yourself with something from the left. Broaden your mind. Open it. Stop being brainwashed.

hey Bobo have the Democrats ever fucked anything up?......ever fucked people over?....or do all the evils in the world come from those nasty Squirrely Republicans?......just askin...

 

[Harry Dresden]

Bobo has a lot of misconceptions about a lot of things....

She and Truthmatters should go to quilting class together.

And don't forget Unions. They need to come back with a vengance. You middle class righties think you'll benefit if the GOP is successful in killing unions?

I wish we could split up the states. Honestly I do.

thats because like many from the Far Left and Right.....you believe in divisiveness....

 

[Unkotare]

Want to go to war with Iran? Vote Romney.

When did Romney say he would certainly go to war with Iran? When did he say that is what he wanted?


Are you capable of calming down enough to be a serious interlocutor?

 

[Unkotare]

And I strongly believe everything I say. Because its true. :

Once again demonstrating that you are a hyper-partisan douche. Make all the calls you want, an extremist like you has nothing to say that anyone will hear but other like-minded extremists. Therefore, you could save your time calling the people who are already nut-hugging obama as shamelessly as you are, but go ahead and go through the motions if it makes you feel important.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Republicans may be ok with the idea that we are all born equal because they don't want to admit they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

What they believe in is every man for himself and survival of the fittest. So if the weak parrish, so be it. That's what happens in free unregulated markets/societies. Like the caraboo being stalked by the wolves. Its every caraboo for himself. They don't turn around and protect the weak caraboo. They just keep moving.

Democrats like safety nets. No one I know hates their social security and medicare.

Republicans may be ok with the idea that we are all born equal because they don't want to admit they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

are you fucking serious?..........oh geez....you are....

Remember Harry, you shouldn't be voting GOP. I consider you a want to be Republican. Ignorant electorate.

your not talking to me Bobo....i have since 2002 always voted for anyone except the same guys you keep on voting for...... and Bobo you sure as hell aint no SMART electorate.....you come in here lecturing everyone like you know what the fuck your talking about.....and lo and behold.....it seems you aint no smarter than anyone else in here.....you just have more bullshit than most......the difference between me and you Bobo?....i can say this....."BOTH PARTIES ARE FUCKED"......now lets see you say that.....

 

[frazzledgear]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Truly a bizarre rant that actually has little to do with reality! It is always pretty easy to make claims about what you don't like about someone's views -when you don't even understand them! This is a long response but I've really had enough of leftwing kooks pretending they know and and understand either conservatism or libertarianism and ALWAYS insisting it is just people who want to be SELFISH. In truth it is people wanting the personal best for others -in ways that really is best.

Conservatism or libertarianism is NOT about selfishness but about individualism. These are NOT one and the same thing and it is a massive lie and disservice to our entire species to pretend it is!

The left claims to be the spokesman for "minorities" but the individual is the smallest minority there is. You can't claim to be pro-minority but anti-individual because in practice and reality, it means anti-human being. Liberalism (not libertarianism) is based on a fundamentally flawed principle. It doesn't matter if you want to discuss US liberalism, European socialism or communism -they all suffer from the identical built-in fatal flaw that insures it not only will not work but will increase human misery as it goes about proving over and over and over again that it will not work. Liberals refuse to believe that fatal flaw exists and no amount of rational or reasoned debate is ever allowed to make a dent in their hardened minds. They are totally convinced that given just ONE more chance, they can make it work -and when it fails again, they will insist they need one MORE chance and again and again. The entire ideology is a cancer on the soul of humanity even as it poses as "caring".

But here is the fatal flaw all spelled out for you. It is entirely based on what liberals WISH was human nature instead of what it really is. Any system that seeks to remake human nature instead of understanding true human nature and then figuring out how to best exploit REALITY for the common good -will increase human misery. The US became the wealthiest and most powerful nation in man's history NOT because of our government and not because we stole it from the rest of the world. Unlike the rest of the world, we unleashed the power of the individual to make of his life what he will -and figured out how to exploit that for the greatest good. People won't bust their ass for no reward and they won't bust their ass for the "faceless masses" -but they will bust their ass to improve their own life and the lives of their loved ones. THAT is human nature and THAT is unchangeable. And unlike every other system ours exploits that real human nature for the greatest good. We didn't do it by SOCIALISM -but because we figured out how to exploit the value of individualism for the greatest good as well as the individual's good! YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER! No such thing as a "greater good" but one that is not good for the individual -and THAT is something the left not only doesn't understand at all -it REJECTS. Safety nets are for those who can't provide for themselves whether they cannot do so ever or just temporarily. It is NOT for those who WON'T provide for themselves. But we have allowed that change in this country where all of a sudden people are told they can't possibly expect to live unless government is PROVIDING for them. Of course "providing" only means TAKING from some and handing it out to those who didn't earn it -but now government is doing that even if they could have provided for themselves and WOULD have done so were they not told they were ENTITLED to have others foot their bills instead. If you believe half the population is incapable of providing for themselves without government handouts and entitlements, you must believe our species is very fragile -yet about half the population is receiving some form of entitlement. Government does this by first TAKING it from individuals and then giving some of it back -when in fact it was the individual's money to begin with! But now the individual perceives it as coming from government -when it was really theirs to begin with and taken from them. In fact we are the most adaptable species on earth which is why we are also the most successful species on earth. We are inherently capable and our own history has proven again and again and again -that the overwhelming vast majority of us can and would provide for themselves -and it is society itself that benefits as well as the individual and that combination provides for the GREATEST good -when they do! Not greater good -the GREATEST good. It is THE key to our success as a people and a nation -and NOT government confiscation and redistribution of our incomes!

It is a hard reality that we are not all equally talented, equally ambitious, equally intelligent, equally attractive etc etc. Life is unfair and it will always be unfair. It is not government's job to make life fair -because it can't ever make life fair and the ONLY possible equal outcome government can produce -is to make everyone equally miserable. ALL attempts by government to force an equal outcome or even try to make life "fair" have actually resulted in even greater unfairness. The best government can do is to EASE the unfairness but it will never eliminate it and will have the best success helping those most in need when it keeps that in mind.

The founders rejected the kind of government control and power the left seeks because it makes government our master and we its slaves as government owned property. I don't exist for the benefit of government -it exists for MINE and not to GIVE me stuff I happen to covet at any given time. The kind of government the left seeks cannot exist unless the individual is stripped of rights -and never returned. It is done in the name of providing for the greater good -but at the expense of the individual which automatically means it is NOT the greater good! It requires an authoritarian government that is based on the ridiculous notion that government (ruling elite) knows what is in your best interests better than you do. It is a declaration that people are not only incompetent and stupid, but they can't be trusted to make good decisions on their own behalf. Do you feel that is true about YOU? You must first believe it to be true about YOU before insisting it is true of everyone else as well. And I know you don't believe a faceless bureaucracy actually gives a shit about you at all much less knows better than you what is in your own best interests. Then where do you get off assuming it must be true of OTHERS -just not you. And we know for a fact that isn't true about others either -otherwise our own system of government would have collapsed in less than a century. Instead it thrived. The left rejects the fundamental principle that since it is MY life, it is MINE to run as I see fit for better or ill -not government's.

The US is among the youngest of nations -yet has the longest continuing form of government on the planet. Governments collapse when they fail to satisfy a critical mass. That means our system satisfied far more of OUR people better and longer than any other system known to man. And we figured out how to exploit it for the greater good for the specific purpose of having as few as possible on the bottom. Liberalism operates on the basis that lots of people on the bottom is actually more fair -misery loves company kind of thinking. But conservatism and libertarians believe in a system where as few as possible are on the bottom and as individuals are encouraged to strive for their own success. Having as few as possible on the bottom can't happen by encouraging and rewarding perfectly normal, healthy adults to sit back and wait for government to "take care" of them and resent those who succeed -and then insist they are more entitled to the fruits of their labor than the person who busted his ass to earn it.


A system that encourages and rewards people for being self sufficient, independent, contributing members of society not only works -it provably works better than any other system in existence! How is it "selfish" to encourage normal, healthy adults to be contributing members of society for their OWN best interests? Encouraging and rewarding people to strive for success as THEY define it for themselves, not as government or some ruling elite pretends it is to be defined -WORKS and it works a hell of a lot better than fucking, doomed, fatally flawed socialism which has only produced THE most brutal, inhumane, lethal regimes in modern history that slaughtered ITS OWN PEOPLE by the MILLIONS! Which is what happens when the leftist model of government starts to fail and clings to power -it can only cling to power by turning on its own citizens. It doesn't have the power to turn on its own citizens -until the population has lost their own power and rights. You avoid being attacked and killed by your own government by refusing to EVER give it enough power to do so!

What you call "selfishness" is a system that encourages people to be productive, self sufficient, contributing members of society instead of parasites on the system -for their own good and the greatest good of society itself. WHICH IS PROVABLY BETTER FOR THE INDIVIDUAL? Who in their right mind would encourage anyone to believe the best they can do is to just sit back and wait for next month's check and wait for the next politician to tell them what they want to hear -that they have a greater right to the fruits of labor of others than those who actually worked to earn it -and that unless government confiscates ever more, they just aren't paying their "fair share" to those who didn't earn it. You can't provide a greater good for society by increasing the harm government does to the individual! Choose -either you believe people can and should be capable, self sufficient individuals contributing members of society for their own personal benefit -or you don't. The kind of government you seek is entirely hinged on that fundamental belief. But it isn't success to attach yourself to society as a parasite sucking its lifeblood and demanding your host open its veins wider for you. Parasites kill when they feed too heavily on their victim host and we are fast approaching critical mass for the percentage of our society being carried by the rest. Which again, is NOT the greater good! Success hinges on the individual and if the individual is self sufficient, contributing member, the better society itself is and the better that society provides for their OWN! If my neighbor is self sufficient, GOOD FOR HIM and GOOD FOR ME! Why would ANYONE want a system where success is resented, demonized, and people expected to be ashamed and apologize for it?

The left phonily claims this is their goal as well -but it isn't. Theirs is to empower the state and give it greater control over the individual -which can only happen by stripping him of his rights, forcing him to look to government for his sustenance instead of himself. Why would ANYONE with an ounce of compassion want to see human beings exist in such a state? They claim just using touchy feely words means they actually care more -but their own policies are designed to enslave the individual and insist government has first claim to the fruits of our labor. You either wish to exist as government owned property, RULED over by our own creation -or you believe yourself to be a citizen who gives his CONSENT to be governed as long as government abides by YOUR rules! This is American exceptionalism -it makes us the exception to how our species historically has existed and the exception to how people today exist. We exist as CITIZENS who CONSENT to be governed. Everyone else exists as SUBJECTS to be RULED over. (The fact Obama thought the phrase was merely some kind of empty bragging instead of referring to a very real human condition is APPALLING and SHOCKING. He is the first President to not even know what it means! No doubt because he wasn't raised here and never encouraged to understand and adopt American values.)

Liberals must destroy American exceptionalism in order to impose their preferred system -which cannot exist with a population that retains the right to consent to be governed -and the right to withdraw that consent. Liberalism MUST make people subjects to be ruled over, who must do as they are told, with a ruling elite claiming to know their best interests better than they do, and able to run their lives better than they can. No one who values their OWN freedom would ever agree with such a premise -but liberals actually place very little value on freedom. Especially on the freedom of OTHERS.

Americans personally contribute more money to the victims of natural disasters around the world than ANY other population on the planet. And contribute far more than is contributed by our government and more than the governments of other nations. Do you really not understand why that is? Individualism actually encourages people to CARE about each other AS INDIVIDUALS and PERSONALLY take responsibility to help each other out. There is no close second to the good this nation has done by creating a system that is first and foremost a declaration that says there is nothing more inherently valuable than the value of the individual himself. Does YOUR life matter to you? Do you really think your life matters more to you than mine does to me? Who do you think should be making the important and routine decisions in your life? You or government? What you answer for yourself -is what others answer as well and you have no right to demand they forfeit their own judgment to an INSTITUTION created by man but easily turns into a Frankenstein monster unless kept under tight control with minimal powers to do mischief.

Seriously -we are the only nation on the planet with this system of government. It has been wildly successful and outlasted every other known form of government in existence for a reason. The more self sufficient, independent, successful citizens -the greater the upward pressure on both standard of living and incomes for everyone else, especially those on the bottom. We ALL benefit the more people who succeed -people are far and away more likely to succeed when they are unleashed and encouraged to do so as INDIVIDUALS. Why the hell would I want to trade that in for an historically proven FAILURE of a system, one that fails to satisfy a critical mass of their own population for very long and one doomed to a far earlier collapse than our own? I have yet to hear ANY liberals give a rational explanation for dumping our system for one we already know doesn't work, is doomed to collapse and will provably increase human misery as it does. Not one.

 

[Erand7899]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

Republicans may be ok with the idea that we are all born equal because they don't want to admit they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

What they believe in is every man for himself and survival of the fittest. So if the weak parrish, so be it. That's what happens in free unregulated markets/societies. Like the caraboo being stalked by the wolves. Its every caraboo for himself. They don't turn around and protect the weak caraboo. They just keep moving.

Democrats like safety nets. No one I know hates their social security and medicare.

I, for one, believe that all people are born equal under the law. Only an idiot would believe that all are born equal in any other regard.

I also believe that individuals acting in their own economic self interests further our economic growth, and control the availability of goods and services far better than any bureaucrat is capable of doing. If government controlled the food supply, most people would be starving, while standing in line hoping for a little bit of meat with their allotted loaf of bread.

And, I believe that most modern day liberal/socialists are scared to death of real life, and absolutely sure that they will fail if left to their own resources. They desire a nanny state to replace the security provided by their doting parents.