Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[OKTexas]

What does that have to do with quotas?

Quotas limit freedom. That's the point of imposing them.

quotas on foreign labor don't limit my freedom in any way.

If you want to cross the border they do. If you, and some of the other wall cowards here, get your way, our nation will become a police state where everyone is under suspicion of "being illegal". Do you remember back when you used to think of yourself as a libertarian?

So tell the class, how many of the 1.4 billion people that say they want to come here should we let in? No bullshit, just give us a number.

.

We don't have an immigration clause we have a naturalization clause. We should have no illegal problem and tourism is the first, second, or third largest employers in twenty-nine States.

Now you proving yourself to be nothing but a liar. We have both. I've already provided you with the immigration clause. A1, S9, C1.

.

 

[bripat9643]

Government shouldn't restrict travel. Period.

Of the citizens.

That's the conceit of a most of the new authoritarians. They want to pretend that their laws will only be violating the rights of certain targeted groups (immigrants, terrorists, drug-users, etc...). But it doesn't work that way. Laws effect everyone. When you build walls they are in everyone's way. When you pass police state laws authorizing the government to short-circuit due process, everyone loses the right to due process.

So whose rights do laws against murder and robbery violate?

No one's - they defend the rights of the victims. Is this the first time you've considered this sort of thing?

But you just said that enforcing laws violates people's rights.

 

[bripat9643]

Heh... cry me a river. Software pays quite well. We don't need the phony protectionism.

I have no idea what phone protectionism is. Controlling immigration is not protectionism.

Protectionism is government policy that seeks to protect the financial well-being of special interest groups by restricting competition. It's usually achieved by imposing tariffs or limiting imports. In this case, the import being limited is cheap labor.

Phony protectionism is imposing these policies when they won't even have the intended effects - or when unintended consequences render them null and void. Liberals don't understand that unrestricted price competition is the foundation of a free market. They think government can overrule it without repercussions. They are wrong. You are wrong.

Wrong. That isn't what protectionism is. It's an economic term the refers to placing tariffs or quotas on foreign produced goods. That's all it refers to. It doesn't refer to immigration policy in any way. It also doesn't refer to internal policies, such as unionism, that protect some groups for workers from competition with other domestic labor.

The term has a negative connotation, so you use it dishonestly to promote your idiotic agenda.

Nope. Just pointing out your embarrassing hypocrisy.

You failed. Controlling immigration is not "protectionism," despite your attempt to spin it that way.

 

[dblack]

Heh... cry me a river. Software pays quite well. We don't need the phony protectionism.

I have no idea what phone protectionism is. Controlling immigration is not protectionism.

Protectionism is government policy that seeks to protect the financial well-being of special interest groups by restricting competition. It's usually achieved by imposing tariffs or limiting imports. In this case, the import being limited is cheap labor.

Phony protectionism is imposing these policies when they won't even have the intended effects - or when unintended consequences render them null and void. Liberals don't understand that unrestricted price competition is the foundation of a free market. They think government can overrule it without repercussions. They are wrong. You are wrong.

Wrong. That isn't what protectionism is. It's an economic term the refers to placing tariffs or quotas on foreign produced goods. That's all it refers to. It doesn't refer to immigration policy in any way. It also doesn't refer to internal policies, such as unionism, that protect some groups for workers from competition with other domestic labor.

The term has a negative connotation, so you use it dishonestly to promote your idiotic agenda.

Nope. Just pointing out your embarrassing hypocrisy.

You failed. Controlling immigration is not "protectionism," despite your attempt to spin it that way.

As long as it prevents them dirty brown people from stealing our jobs!

 

[dblack]

Government shouldn't restrict travel. Period.

Of the citizens.

That's the conceit of a most of the new authoritarians. They want to pretend that their laws will only be violating the rights of certain targeted groups (immigrants, terrorists, drug-users, etc...). But it doesn't work that way. Laws effect everyone. When you build walls they are in everyone's way. When you pass police state laws authorizing the government to short-circuit due process, everyone loses the right to due process.

So whose rights do laws against murder and robbery violate?

No one's - they defend the rights of the victims. Is this the first time you've considered this sort of thing?

But you just said that enforcing laws violates people's rights.

You're not good with detail, are ya?

 

[Flopper]

Trump is strong. Trump is kind. Trump is generous of spirit. he's gonna get a deal done that makes everyone happy

No, a deal on the wall will not make everyone happy. The far right and far left won't be happy with any solution that's a compromise.

 

[Flopper]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus (November 2, 1883)
A bronze plaque with the words of the poem "The New Colossus" raised on it. The 1903 bronze plaque located in the Statue of Liberty's museum.

NPS

That was a fine sentiment in 1903...

The population of the US was then 76,000,000...

There was still plenty of land to be had...

There was a job for anyone who wanted one...

Today, however...

The population of the US is 330,000,000...

The land has all been parceled out...

We struggle to keep our own employed...

We struggle to provide educational and medical and social services for our own one-third of a billion souls...

Never mind 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens now present upon United States soil without our express prior consent...

Never mind the millions more invaders who will flood across our borders, should we be stupid enough to allow it...

That plaque represented a fine sentiment, in its time...

Unfortunately, it's time is over... those sentiments are no longer practical... best to hang-up a 'No Vacancy' sign.

Perhaps it's time to declare a two- or four-year moratorium on all immigration to the United States.

There is a 6 million job surplus now and that is likely to grow to 24 million in the next decade as the workforce shrinks do to baby boomers exiting the workforce and low birthrates. There is plenty of room for growth in America.

We should not open our borders nor should we seal them. We need more legal immigrants and we need workable immigration laws and policies.

 

[Flopper]

We still have a government shut down...and Trump is claiming it's because of a wall

But I guess the Trumpers don't want to talk about it any more since well...it's not actually a wall but a fence...and it's not actually going to run across the whole southern border...because ya know....like the sane ones of us have been saying...that would be a stupid waste of money that pretty much could never happen anyway

It will be a wall in some places and a fence in others. It depends on the application of the area. Trump isn't an engineer.

Furthermore it's the Democrats stopping Trump from what he would like to spend, so put the blame where it really belongs.

Trump's campaign promise was a big beautiful wall covering the southern border which would stop illegal immigration from the south. Then the big beautiful wall covering the border became a 1000 mile wall. Then the big beautiful wall became a project to replace a 112 miles of reinforced fencing with a 216 mile slatted steel fence, increased electronic motoring, and aerial surveillance. This is beginning to sound a lot like the increased border security under Obama and Bush.

And that's Trump's fault or the Democrats?

Trump asked for 25 billion originally. HIs asking price now is 1/5 of that, and the Democrats are going to fight him tooth and nail for it. So now you blame less quality on Trump instead of them?

What is it with you on the left that never......ever want to assume responsibility for your actions? Now if the Democrats approved 25 billion and Trump didn't deliver, then you'd have a solid argument. But to say Trump failed us when it was actually the Democrats is an out and out lie.

Yes, it is Trump's fault. Don't you remember the Trump campaign rhetoric.

"I am the greatest deal maker this county has every seen."

“MY STYLE of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward. I aim very high, and then I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I’m after. And I always get what I want."

"When it comes to negotiations, democrats are a push over"

Well it seems the greatest deal maker that ever lived has met his match simply because he does not know how to deal with congress. In order to get any money for his wall he has to offer House democrats concessions on immigration and that's not going to be easy because almost anything he offers will cost far right votes.

House democrats shouldn't cave in. They have the votes and they have the public. Neither the wall nor Trump's government shutdown is popular. Cowing down to the school yard bully would cost them dearly.

Democrats get nothing until Trump gets his wall. No bill passes. Veto everyfuckingthing.

It would be foolish for House democrats to give in to Trump. They have the votes and they have the public. Trump's wall and his shutdown which he takes credit for is not popular with the public.

 

[Slyhunter]

I have no idea what phone protectionism is. Controlling immigration is not protectionism.

Protectionism is government policy that seeks to protect the financial well-being of special interest groups by restricting competition. It's usually achieved by imposing tariffs or limiting imports. In this case, the import being limited is cheap labor.

Phony protectionism is imposing these policies when they won't even have the intended effects - or when unintended consequences render them null and void. Liberals don't understand that unrestricted price competition is the foundation of a free market. They think government can overrule it without repercussions. They are wrong. You are wrong.

Wrong. That isn't what protectionism is. It's an economic term the refers to placing tariffs or quotas on foreign produced goods. That's all it refers to. It doesn't refer to immigration policy in any way. It also doesn't refer to internal policies, such as unionism, that protect some groups for workers from competition with other domestic labor.

The term has a negative connotation, so you use it dishonestly to promote your idiotic agenda.

Nope. Just pointing out your embarrassing hypocrisy.

You failed. Controlling immigration is not "protectionism," despite your attempt to spin it that way.

As long as it prevents them dirty brown people from stealing our jobs!

When your sitting at home worrying about the bills jobless the color of the person who took your job is immaterial.

 

[Slyhunter]

It will be a wall in some places and a fence in others. It depends on the application of the area. Trump isn't an engineer.

Furthermore it's the Democrats stopping Trump from what he would like to spend, so put the blame where it really belongs.

Trump's campaign promise was a big beautiful wall covering the southern border which would stop illegal immigration from the south. Then the big beautiful wall covering the border became a 1000 mile wall. Then the big beautiful wall became a project to replace a 112 miles of reinforced fencing with a 216 mile slatted steel fence, increased electronic motoring, and aerial surveillance. This is beginning to sound a lot like the increased border security under Obama and Bush.

And that's Trump's fault or the Democrats?

Trump asked for 25 billion originally. HIs asking price now is 1/5 of that, and the Democrats are going to fight him tooth and nail for it. So now you blame less quality on Trump instead of them?

What is it with you on the left that never......ever want to assume responsibility for your actions? Now if the Democrats approved 25 billion and Trump didn't deliver, then you'd have a solid argument. But to say Trump failed us when it was actually the Democrats is an out and out lie.

Yes, it is Trump's fault. Don't you remember the Trump campaign rhetoric.

"I am the greatest deal maker this county has every seen."

“MY STYLE of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward. I aim very high, and then I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I’m after. And I always get what I want."

"When it comes to negotiations, democrats are a push over"

Well it seems the greatest deal maker that ever lived has met his match simply because he does not know how to deal with congress. In order to get any money for his wall he has to offer House democrats concessions on immigration and that's not going to be easy because almost anything he offers will cost far right votes.

House democrats shouldn't cave in. They have the votes and they have the public. Neither the wall nor Trump's government shutdown is popular. Cowing down to the school yard bully would cost them dearly.

Democrats get nothing until Trump gets his wall. No bill passes. Veto everyfuckingthing.

It would be foolish for House democrats to give in to Trump. They have the votes and they have the public. Trump's wall and his shutdown which he takes credit for is not popular with the public.

Bullshit, we want him to do his job and build the damn wall. No wall no bills.

 

[danielpalos]

they would be tourists; but the right wing insists on lousy right wing management.

Tourists that wouldn't want to go home to their native paradise. Something like that?

why not? Capitalism works. They could make money here and go home when there is a decent exchange rate. They could "set up shop" back home. With our current, lousy right wing management, they are stuck in the US and merely increase their risk leaving and returning.

The door is currently closed on beaners. At least until we have a fresh batch of new lawns to mow.

you merely have an inferior argument. that is all.

Door is still closed on tamale chuggers.

you need a superior argument.

 

[danielpalos]

you are too far away from Your mountains; you make no sense.

You must be jealous of white people that they can create great countries, and you short brown people can't create anything but shitholes.

they were already created. it must be your turn or whitey would not get so much of the blame.

They were created by our ancestors. Your ancestors build the shitholes you all want to get away from. Now go suck an enchilada.

Is Daniel Hispanic?

Yes, he admitted to trying to bring up the rest of his family.

You ever Yodle on your mountains?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus (November 2, 1883)
A bronze plaque with the words of the poem "The New Colossus" raised on it. The 1903 bronze plaque located in the Statue of Liberty's museum.

NPS

That was a fine sentiment in 1903...

The population of the US was then 76,000,000...

There was still plenty of land to be had...

There was a job for anyone who wanted one...

Today, however...

The population of the US is 330,000,000...

The land has all been parceled out...

We struggle to keep our own employed...

We struggle to provide educational and medical and social services for our own one-third of a billion souls...

Never mind 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens now present upon United States soil without our express prior consent...

Never mind the millions more invaders who will flood across our borders, should we be stupid enough to allow it...

That plaque represented a fine sentiment, in its time...

Unfortunately, it's time is over... those sentiments are no longer practical... best to hang-up a 'No Vacancy' sign.

Perhaps it's time to declare a two- or four-year moratorium on all immigration to the United States.

There is a 6 million job surplus now and that is likely to grow to 24 million in the next decade as the workforce shrinks do to baby boomers exiting the workforce and low birthrates. There is plenty of room for growth in America.

We should not open our borders nor should we seal them. We need more legal immigrants and we need workable immigration laws and policies.

Automation could kill 73 million U.S. jobs by 2030

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Government shouldn't restrict travel. Period.

Of the citizens.

That's the conceit of a most of the new authoritarians. They want to pretend that their laws will only be violating the rights of certain targeted groups (immigrants, terrorists, drug-users, etc...). But it doesn't work that way. Laws effect everyone. When you build walls they are in everyone's way. When you pass police state laws authorizing the government to short-circuit due process, everyone loses the right to due process.

Walls don't have that ability, only government does. And once Democrats secure their single-party government thanks to these immigrants that's exactly what's going to happen and worse. If you know anything about Democrats; anything about their history, WTF do you think they're going to do with this country once there is no opposition?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Why increase them? How big IS your family?

So, I guess you don't think immigrants aren't THAT cool.

The government sets quotas based on several factors. If they decide we need more, then ok. But not just because of nothing.

Actually, no there are no quotas. Congress sets the maximum number immigrants at about 675,000 per year plus about half dozen categories of immigration that pushes the total to about a million a year or higher.

Then the law establishes the maximum number of immigrants from any country as 7% of the total, about 70,000 excluding certain categories. However, this figure is reduced by the number of legal residents from that country living in the US who change immigration status to permanent resident. Immigrants being sponsored by family members further reduces the number as well as employment sponsoring and other categories of immigration.

So for most countries if you do not have family living in the US or have special skills that will attract an employer to sponsor you or you don't fit in one of the other special categories, you simple can not immigrate to the US, no matter how long you wait.

Yeah? So what? Since when does anyone have a right to emigrate to the United States?

When the colonists came here from Europe 500 years ago, it was they who claimed anyone had the right to immigrate here, and now we are stuck with that legal precedent. But it is even more complex because when we negotiated treaties to buy CA, AZ, NM, NV, CO, UT, TX, FL and others, there were already over a million Mexicans living here, so we agreed to treaties that prohibited any infringement on travel by Mexicans. Those million Mexicans were not required to become US citizens or leave. So we can't now close the border or else be in violation of the treaties and be in default.

Where have you been? We've had immigration policies for generations limiting people who can come here, and no treaties violated.

 

[Flopper]

Trump's campaign promise was a big beautiful wall covering the southern border which would stop illegal immigration from the south. Then the big beautiful wall covering the border became a 1000 mile wall. Then the big beautiful wall became a project to replace a 112 miles of reinforced fencing with a 216 mile slatted steel fence, increased electronic motoring, and aerial surveillance. This is beginning to sound a lot like the increased border security under Obama and Bush.

And that's Trump's fault or the Democrats?

Trump asked for 25 billion originally. HIs asking price now is 1/5 of that, and the Democrats are going to fight him tooth and nail for it. So now you blame less quality on Trump instead of them?

What is it with you on the left that never......ever want to assume responsibility for your actions? Now if the Democrats approved 25 billion and Trump didn't deliver, then you'd have a solid argument. But to say Trump failed us when it was actually the Democrats is an out and out lie.

Yes, it is Trump's fault. Don't you remember the Trump campaign rhetoric.

"I am the greatest deal maker this county has every seen."

“MY STYLE of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward. I aim very high, and then I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I’m after. And I always get what I want."

"When it comes to negotiations, democrats are a push over"

Well it seems the greatest deal maker that ever lived has met his match simply because he does not know how to deal with congress. In order to get any money for his wall he has to offer House democrats concessions on immigration and that's not going to be easy because almost anything he offers will cost far right votes.

House democrats shouldn't cave in. They have the votes and they have the public. Neither the wall nor Trump's government shutdown is popular. Cowing down to the school yard bully would cost them dearly.

Democrats get nothing until Trump gets his wall. No bill passes. Veto everyfuckingthing.

It would be foolish for House democrats to give in to Trump. They have the votes and they have the public. Trump's wall and his shutdown which he takes credit for is not popular with the public.

Bullshit, we want him to do his job and build the damn wall. No wall no bills.

No, his job is not building a wall unless Congress says so by allocating funds and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

What is happening thanks to Trump, the border patrol is working without pay, most immigration courts have been shutdown delaying hearings and deportations, and E-Verify is not available so immigration status can't be verified.

However, the end may be in sight as the first republican senator calls for an end to the shutdown without funds for a border wall. There is little real support in the Senate for the wall but republicans are still doing their duty of supporting their president. That may well change in few days.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We still have a government shut down...and Trump is claiming it's because of a wall

But I guess the Trumpers don't want to talk about it any more since well...it's not actually a wall but a fence...and it's not actually going to run across the whole southern border...because ya know....like the sane ones of us have been saying...that would be a stupid waste of money that pretty much could never happen anyway

It will be a wall in some places and a fence in others. It depends on the application of the area. Trump isn't an engineer.

Furthermore it's the Democrats stopping Trump from what he would like to spend, so put the blame where it really belongs.

Trump's campaign promise was a big beautiful wall covering the southern border which would stop illegal immigration from the south. Then the big beautiful wall covering the border became a 1000 mile wall. Then the big beautiful wall became a project to replace a 112 miles of reinforced fencing with a 216 mile slatted steel fence, increased electronic motoring, and aerial surveillance. This is beginning to sound a lot like the increased border security under Obama and Bush.

And that's Trump's fault or the Democrats?

Trump asked for 25 billion originally. HIs asking price now is 1/5 of that, and the Democrats are going to fight him tooth and nail for it. So now you blame less quality on Trump instead of them?

What is it with you on the left that never......ever want to assume responsibility for your actions? Now if the Democrats approved 25 billion and Trump didn't deliver, then you'd have a solid argument. But to say Trump failed us when it was actually the Democrats is an out and out lie.

Yes, it is Trump's fault. Don't you remember the Trump campaign rhetoric.

"I am the greatest deal maker this county has every seen."

“MY STYLE of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward. I aim very high, and then I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I’m after. And I always get what I want."

"When it comes to negotiations, democrats are a push over"

Well it seems the greatest deal maker that ever lived has met his match simply because he does not know how to deal with congress. In order to get any money for his wall he has to offer House democrats concessions on immigration and that's not going to be easy because almost anything he offers will cost far right votes.

House democrats shouldn't cave in. They have the votes and they have the public. Neither the wall nor Trump's government shutdown is popular. Cowing down to the school yard bully would cost them dearly.

So would the surrender of this country to foreigners. Trump has two choices: go with his instinct and give people what they elected him for, or give into polls Lord knows how badly manipulated.

If he chooses the latter, what we are looking at is the beginning of the end of the Great Experiment; the end our our country as we know it.

 

[Flopper]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus (November 2, 1883)
A bronze plaque with the words of the poem "The New Colossus" raised on it. The 1903 bronze plaque located in the Statue of Liberty's museum.

NPS

That was a fine sentiment in 1903...

The population of the US was then 76,000,000...

There was still plenty of land to be had...

There was a job for anyone who wanted one...

Today, however...

The population of the US is 330,000,000...

The land has all been parceled out...

We struggle to keep our own employed...

We struggle to provide educational and medical and social services for our own one-third of a billion souls...

Never mind 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens now present upon United States soil without our express prior consent...

Never mind the millions more invaders who will flood across our borders, should we be stupid enough to allow it...

That plaque represented a fine sentiment, in its time...

Unfortunately, it's time is over... those sentiments are no longer practical... best to hang-up a 'No Vacancy' sign.

Perhaps it's time to declare a two- or four-year moratorium on all immigration to the United States.

There is a 6 million job surplus now and that is likely to grow to 24 million in the next decade as the workforce shrinks do to baby boomers exiting the workforce and low birthrates. There is plenty of room for growth in America.

We should not open our borders nor should we seal them. We need more legal immigrants and we need workable immigration laws and policies.

Automation could kill 73 million U.S. jobs by 2030

Automation does kill jobs but it creates more jobs than it eliminates in most industries. A study by Deloitte found found 800,000 jobs were eliminated as the result of AI and other automation technologies. But get this: 3.5 million new jobs were created as well, and those jobs paid on average nearly $13,000 more per year than the ones that were lost.

A company might automate and eliminate thousands of factory floor workers but by doing so, they increase profitability making possible investments in new products and plants.

 

[dblack]

Government shouldn't restrict travel. Period.

Of the citizens.

That's the conceit of a most of the new authoritarians. They want to pretend that their laws will only be violating the rights of certain targeted groups (immigrants, terrorists, drug-users, etc...). But it doesn't work that way. Laws effect everyone. When you build walls they are in everyone's way. When you pass police state laws authorizing the government to short-circuit due process, everyone loses the right to due process.

Walls don't have that ability, only government does. And once Democrats secure their single-party government thanks to these immigrants that's exactly what's going to happen and worse. If you know anything about Democrats; anything about their history, WTF do you think they're going to do with this country once there is no opposition?

FEAR!

 

[Flopper]

We still have a government shut down...and Trump is claiming it's because of a wall

But I guess the Trumpers don't want to talk about it any more since well...it's not actually a wall but a fence...and it's not actually going to run across the whole southern border...because ya know....like the sane ones of us have been saying...that would be a stupid waste of money that pretty much could never happen anyway

It will be a wall in some places and a fence in others. It depends on the application of the area. Trump isn't an engineer.

Furthermore it's the Democrats stopping Trump from what he would like to spend, so put the blame where it really belongs.

Trump's campaign promise was a big beautiful wall covering the southern border which would stop illegal immigration from the south. Then the big beautiful wall covering the border became a 1000 mile wall. Then the big beautiful wall became a project to replace a 112 miles of reinforced fencing with a 216 mile slatted steel fence, increased electronic motoring, and aerial surveillance. This is beginning to sound a lot like the increased border security under Obama and Bush.

And that's Trump's fault or the Democrats?

Trump asked for 25 billion originally. HIs asking price now is 1/5 of that, and the Democrats are going to fight him tooth and nail for it. So now you blame less quality on Trump instead of them?

What is it with you on the left that never......ever want to assume responsibility for your actions? Now if the Democrats approved 25 billion and Trump didn't deliver, then you'd have a solid argument. But to say Trump failed us when it was actually the Democrats is an out and out lie.

Yes, it is Trump's fault. Don't you remember the Trump campaign rhetoric.

"I am the greatest deal maker this county has every seen."

“MY STYLE of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward. I aim very high, and then I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I’m after. And I always get what I want."

"When it comes to negotiations, democrats are a push over"

Well it seems the greatest deal maker that ever lived has met his match simply because he does not know how to deal with congress. In order to get any money for his wall he has to offer House democrats concessions on immigration and that's not going to be easy because almost anything he offers will cost far right votes.

House democrats shouldn't cave in. They have the votes and they have the public. Neither the wall nor Trump's government shutdown is popular. Cowing down to the school yard bully would cost them dearly.

So would the surrender of this country to foreigners. Trump has two choices: go with his instinct and give people what they elected him for, or give into polls Lord knows how badly manipulated.

If he chooses the latter, what we are looking at is the beginning of the end of the Great Experiment; the end our our country as we know it.

Trump voters may have voted for Trump because he promised to build a wall and reduce illegal immigration but they didn't elect him shutdown legal immigration.

Trump has threaten to close US borders if he doesn't get his wall. Hopefully he will do this. His people would certainly advise against this but as we know, Trump listens to no one.