Why is the gay community afraid of "conversion therapy"?

[JakeStarkey]

you are free to have your opinion but i reject your opinion,you are not my judge,god is our only judge!!! Please god not little man!!! === you can see that i am not trying to please you by sweet talk and flattery; no, i am trying to please god. If i were still trying to please men i could not be christ’s servant. Galations 1:10

you are judged as you judge others.

You are forgiven as you forgive others.

Others hear you as you hear them.

Note: It's not about trying to "please people"
it's about speaking effectively where they receive the message

if your words cause rejection of god, is this what you intend?

begone satan's tool!!! Just begone!!!

You remind of the new convert who offends others as if he were twenty devils.

So you are now GISMY_LEGION.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Interesting that, if you want it, you can get counseling on how to live like a gay person, how to act like a person of the opposite gender, or how to feel good about yourself even though you're attracted to your own gender, but even if you want it, you are not allowed to get counseling on how to go the other direction.

Yes, you are. California and New Jersey said you can't make kids go to this harmful "therapy"...adults are free to fuck themselves up if they choose to.

But kids CAN be "counseled" on how to feel good about themselves despite being attracted to the same sex? That is the point.

And this is an example of the ignorance associated with the myth of “conversion therapy"; gay minors don’t need to be ‘counseled’ to ‘feel good’ about being gay, as if it were some sort of ‘disability.’

Given love, support, and guidance by their parents, young gay persons are perfecting capable of being happy as gay individuals and grow to be happy, well adjusted gay adults, secure and confident in who they are.

Indeed, if there’s any need for gay minors to receive counseling, it’s as a consequence of being subjected to the ignorance and hate of those hostile to gay Americans, where gay young people are being told the lie that there’s ‘something wrong’ with them and they need ‘therapy,’ when in fact there is not, that in fact they are just as normal and just as healthy as heterosexual young people.

The best thing that can be done to ‘help’ young gay persons is the simply leave them alone.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

you are free to have your opinion but i reject your opinion,you are not my judge,god is our only judge!!! Please god not little man!!! === you can see that i am not trying to please you by sweet talk and flattery; no, i am trying to please god. If i were still trying to please men i could not be christ’s servant. Galations 1:10

you are judged as you judge others.

You are forgiven as you forgive others.

Others hear you as you hear them.

Note: It's not about trying to "please people"
it's about speaking effectively where they receive the message

if your words cause rejection of god, is this what you intend?

begone satan's tool!!! Just begone!!!

lol

You've got to be kidding.

 

[Pop23]

Conversion therapy

Since none of you nincompoop homophobic fuckwads has answered my question, here it is again"

DOES CONVERSION THERAPY WORK ON HETEROSEXUALS TOO?

I mean...it's obvious...if you believe it can work to "convert" a gay person, why can't it work to "convert" a straight person?

[MENTION=42946]Howey[/MENTION]

Y E S

Spiritual healing helps people restore their NATURAL state, whatever that is spiritually.

So YES I have a friend who came out as Transgender AFTER receiving healing spiritually.
Before he was in a heterosexual marriage and unhappy suppressing guilt and blame of Christianity.

After we shared the true meaning of Christianity, and he let go of judgment and fears,
he came out as his true self, where his spiritually given personality was female.
For the first time in his life, he told me he felt God's love and knew he was loved unconditionally.

Lots of people come out and come to terms with their natural selves
after healing.

Just because you receive spiritual healing, doesn't mean you convert
to Christianity, other religions or orientations. That is NOT the point.
You come to peace with who you are, whatever that is which is between you and God.
And FORGIVE and heal whatever was unforgiven, conflicted, or blocking you from peace.

Ok, let's examine this

You took a male that slept with women and helped him understand that he should be with men. Check

He would then want to be with men. check

So then he became a women. Check

So men that are attracted to men would want to be with men. Check

And this guy became a women so he could be with men that want to be with men. Or did he think that men that want to be with other men would want to be with a woman?

Or was the thinking that a man that wanted to be with women would be attracted to a women that used to be a man?

Very confusing.

If I wasn't already drunk I'd go get sloshed.

This makes my head hurt.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi PT I was referring to other reputable counselors and healing practitioners.
The only ones I refer are FREE and reputable, with no fraud or complaints on record.
Home - Christian Healing Ministries is one of those free resources with good reputation,
with a medically documented study on positive effects on healing rheumatoid arthritis.

We can talk more on a separate thread.
I thought you and Jake were "absolutely deadset" on rejecting without research.
If you are open to looking, then the challenge may not be necessary because
the results speak for themselves. If people would even consider the cases where this is medically valid.

I think just the research already out there would make it clear "much more is going on" than just the ABUSIVE "forced conversion" garbage that is opposed for obvious reasons.

The false, fraudulent malpractice and abuses we hear in the news have NOTHING to do with real therapy that is free, effective and voluntary.
The successful methods are all based on "forgiveness" which by nature must be by choice and cannot be forced or it's false.

I am not a licensed therapist, and only help people like you see here online, through personal sharing and discussion, which is enough for most people to get what they need.

For the REALLY deep spiritual healing and prayer, my friend Olivia does that and has similar experience and years of effective outreach as Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt.

I'm sure they and their other volunteers and teachers in this field are all licensed. Olivia is not licensed but works alongside doctors and professionals who are; she handles the healing prayer
and they handle any procedures requiring medical or mental health procedures.

The people who do "forgiveness counseling" on a very basic level, like helping friends through personal grief or conflicts, do not need to be licensed.
(When I was talking with my friend online through his understanding of forgiveness, this was no different than me discussion or debating on here, and that was ENOUGH for him to come out as transgender
and work through his issues and decisions openly with his friends and family. I was just talking to him about not judging people or himself by the Bible but using it to teach forgiveness, and he came out.
That was not my intent at all, but that was the result of him forgiving and receiving a fuller understanding of God's love, it had that effect on him and changed how he looked at his life and what he wanted.)

No one I refer charges money, but helps for free because the healing is so needed, and the results multiply.

If you heal one person in a family or group, the whole family or group can receive healing.
So the efforts have greater reward on a spiritual level, and the most effective healers I recommend help for free because that is there calling. To help anyone who asks for help.

Thanks for being open to look into this.
I am happy to send you Dr. MacNutt's book on HEALING
for free, to aid in research in this important field. I believe it will change medicine, and
both mental health and prison systems, when healing methods are developed for medically diagnosing criminal illness using this same knowledge of spiritual causes of sickness, passed down from generations psychologically and physically. We could be treating diseases more effectively, and work alongside medicine and science so there is no conflict.

Whoa two birds with one stone
[MENTION=49463]PoliticalTorch[/MENTION] and [MENTION=20412]JakeStarkey[/MENTION]

Do you want to set up a Bullring challenge:
* that there IS a natural therapy for recovery from sexual abuse that
has effectively changed people's orientations to whatever is NATURAL for them.
* that this discussion and distinction between ABUSIVE FRAUDULENT practice
and NATURAL HEALING that is consistent with science and medicine as beneficial
IS a positive subject for exploration, RESEARCH, and understanding for the public?

If I challenge both of you at the same time,
and if I can prove that there IS BENEFIT to both
* NATURAL spiritual healing and recovery therapy (NOT fraudulent forced or abusive practices that the EFFECTIVE METHODS demonstrate the DIFFERENCE between)
* and the DISCUSSION, RESEARCH and PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE of this difference

Will you both agree to post a public apology for your misjudgment and misconception
of the DIFFERENCE between natural spiritual healing versus fraudulent harmful practices.

I have some websites set up, where I could feature your statements and explanations.
I am ready to promote research into the DIFFERENCE between natural therapy and unnatural abuses.

Would you two care to step into the Bullring
if you truly believe there is no truth to what I offer?

Jake, you're so right about that! There is no need for Gays and Lesbians to change the way they were born and the way they are and whom they love. But you also have to realize that the "hetero-fascist community", great term for them by the way, has to keep harping away on this one issue because that's all they have. They can't solve the problems of this country, they have no new ideas for moving the country forward, so all they know is obstructionism and they excel at that! So, they pick on a minority group, Blacks, Latinos and Hispanics included, and they find people who oppose those folks also and who are unfortunately as narrow-minded as they are who will blindly follow them like the pied piper since their mentality apparently knows no better, being cut pretty much from the same fabric. Never mind the harm they are doing to those groups, they are only after them for the votes they hope to get from them and then it's Adios Amigos!

Emily, it appears that you have opened that door yourself therefore, I would like to ask you a few questions about the type of therapy you offer.

1. Are you licensed or certified by any state to offer this specific type of therapy? If so, by what state? And what is the name of the school you went to in order to study this type of therapy?

2. Have your therapies received peer-reviews by professional, medical associations and organizations? If so, which are they?

3. Have your therapies been proven to be efficacious to the overall professional healing and well-being of people who received them so that they would be able to provide a personal statement on how it worked out for them and if they experienced any trouble or pain from having received it to be forwarded to certain medical associations and state boards of medicine for their review?

4. Do you charge money for your services? And if so, how much?

5. Do you provide these services in a professional setting? If so, where specifically and the physical location of your offices, or do you offer this out of your home or like place, and are you zoned and licensed by the City you reside in as a business and where would that be please?

After hearing from you on that we might be able to talk further. As to an issue of an apology, none is needed from us and would however have to come from the source, the professional medical organizations and other places that reached those conclusions about Gay Conversion Therapy being Dangerous and Ineffective. Would you like for me to pass on your information (provided you first provide it to us) so they can check it out and take a look at what you are offering in order to be able to analyze it well so that it could be possibly recommended to others by them? You may indeed have all the proper answers to these questions so things may not apply to you if you do but I ask that as a mere precaution because I'm sure you are fully aware that there are many people out there offering bogus healing, etc. who have not received the proper training, been licensed, certified, or tested by professional sources first since it involves dealing with the public and that is always a very sensitive and delicate issue and I'm sure you can fully appreciate my concern on that. Outside of your not allowing for all these things listed, I cannot see any need for any further discussion and things will stand as they are. Thank you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hi PT I was referring to other reputable counselors and healing practitioners.
The only ones I refer are FREE and reputable, with no fraud or complaints on record.
Home - Christian Healing Ministries is one of those free resources with good reputation,
with a medically documented study on positive effects on healing rheumatoid arthritis.

We can talk more on a separate thread.
I thought you and Jake were "absolutely deadset" on rejecting without research.
If you are open to looking, then the challenge may not be necessary because
the results speak for themselves. If people would even consider the cases where this is medically valid.

I think just the research already out there would make it clear "much more is going on" than just the ABUSIVE "forced conversion" garbage that is opposed for obvious reasons.

The false, fraudulent malpractice and abuses we hear in the news have NOTHING to do with real therapy that is free, effective and voluntary.
The successful methods are all based on "forgiveness" which by nature must be by choice and cannot be forced or it's false.

I am not a licensed therapist, and only help people like you see here online, through personal sharing and discussion, which is enough for most people to get what they need.

For the REALLY deep spiritual healing and prayer, my friend Olivia does that and has similar experience and years of effective outreach as Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt.

I'm sure they and their other volunteers and teachers in this field are all licensed. Olivia is not licensed but works alongside doctors and professionals who are; she handles the healing prayer
and they handle any procedures requiring medical or mental health procedures.

The people who do "forgiveness counseling" on a very basic level, like helping friends through personal grief or conflicts, do not need to be licensed.
(When I was talking with my friend online through his understanding of forgiveness, this was no different than me discussion or debating on here, and that was ENOUGH for him to come out as transgender
and work through his issues and decisions openly with his friends and family. I was just talking to him about not judging people or himself by the Bible but using it to teach forgiveness, and he came out.
That was not my intent at all, but that was the result of him forgiving and receiving a fuller understanding of God's love, it had that effect on him and changed how he looked at his life and what he wanted.)

No one I refer charges money, but helps for free because the healing is so needed, and the results multiply.

If you heal one person in a family or group, the whole family or group can receive healing.
So the efforts have greater reward on a spiritual level, and the most effective healers I recommend help for free because that is there calling. To help anyone who asks for help.

Thanks for being open to look into this.
I am happy to send you Dr. MacNutt's book on HEALING
for free, to aid in research in this important field. I believe it will change medicine, and
both mental health and prison systems, when healing methods are developed for medically diagnosing criminal illness using this same knowledge of spiritual causes of sickness, passed down from generations psychologically and physically. We could be treating diseases more effectively, and work alongside medicine and science so there is no conflict.

Whoa two birds with one stone
[MENTION=49463]PoliticalTorch[/MENTION] and [MENTION=20412]JakeStarkey[/MENTION]

Do you want to set up a Bullring challenge:
* that there IS a natural therapy for recovery from sexual abuse that
has effectively changed people's orientations to whatever is NATURAL for them.
* that this discussion and distinction between ABUSIVE FRAUDULENT practice
and NATURAL HEALING that is consistent with science and medicine as beneficial
IS a positive subject for exploration, RESEARCH, and understanding for the public?

If I challenge both of you at the same time,
and if I can prove that there IS BENEFIT to both
* NATURAL spiritual healing and recovery therapy (NOT fraudulent forced or abusive practices that the EFFECTIVE METHODS demonstrate the DIFFERENCE between)
* and the DISCUSSION, RESEARCH and PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE of this difference

Will you both agree to post a public apology for your misjudgment and misconception
of the DIFFERENCE between natural spiritual healing versus fraudulent harmful practices.

I have some websites set up, where I could feature your statements and explanations.
I am ready to promote research into the DIFFERENCE between natural therapy and unnatural abuses.

Would you two care to step into the Bullring
if you truly believe there is no truth to what I offer?

Emily, it appears that you have opened that door yourself therefore, I would like to ask you a few questions about the type of therapy you offer.

1. Are you licensed or certified by any state to offer this specific type of therapy? If so, by what state? And what is the name of the school you went to in order to study this type of therapy?

2. Have your therapies received peer-reviews by professional, medical associations and organizations? If so, which are they?

3. Have your therapies been proven to be efficacious to the overall professional healing and well-being of people who received them so that they would be able to provide a personal statement on how it worked out for them and if they experienced any trouble or pain from having received it to be forwarded to certain medical associations and state boards of medicine for their review?

4. Do you charge money for your services? And if so, how much?

5. Do you provide these services in a professional setting? If so, where specifically and the physical location of your offices, or do you offer this out of your home or like place, and are you zoned and licensed by the City you reside in as a business and where would that be please?

After hearing from you on that we might be able to talk further. As to an issue of an apology, none is needed from us and would however have to come from the source, the professional medical organizations and other places that reached those conclusions about Gay Conversion Therapy being Dangerous and Ineffective. Would you like for me to pass on your information (provided you first provide it to us) so they can check it out and take a look at what you are offering in order to be able to analyze it well so that it could be possibly recommended to others by them? You may indeed have all the proper answers to these questions so things may not apply to you if you do but I ask that as a mere precaution because I'm sure you are fully aware that there are many people out there offering bogus healing, etc. who have not received the proper training, been licensed, certified, or tested by professional sources first since it involves dealing with the public and that is always a very sensitive and delicate issue and I'm sure you can fully appreciate my concern on that. Outside of your not allowing for all these things listed, I cannot see any need for any further discussion and things will stand as they are. Thank you.

Emily states "I thought you and Jake were 'absolutely deadset' on rejecting without research." I won't answer for you, but I will certainly tell Emily that (1) research overwhelmingly rejects her beliefs and (2) she is not qualified to lecture on the subject.

 

[Inevitable]

It seeks to propagate the ignorant, hateful lie that being gay is a "mental illness" or something to be "cured," when in fact it is not

[MENTION=29614]C_Clayton_Jones[/MENTION]

If PoliticalTorch and JakeStarkey decline my invitation,
would you agree to step in? See above, thanks!

I am saying there is a DIFFERENCE between
natural therapy and unnatural abuses.

And that this discussion of the DIFFERENCE, and the research required to clarify it,
is beneficial to the public to have understanding and knowledge of.

Anyone else?
As many people as want to take on this challenge,
the more the merrier!

If this challenge goes public, I will ask help from the
Log Cabin Republicans to set up national forums to expand on this discussion,
on the DIFFERENCE between "natural and unnatural" and what distinguishes both.

A very important concept to establish!
There are no losers, everyone will win and benefit from the answers we share.

Explain what you mean by "natural therapy"

 

[Seawytch]

Interesting that, if you want it, you can get counseling on how to live like a gay person, how to act like a person of the opposite gender, or how to feel good about yourself even though you're attracted to your own gender, but even if you want it, you are not allowed to get counseling on how to go the other direction.

Yes, you are. California and New Jersey said you can't make kids go to this harmful "therapy"...adults are free to fuck themselves up if they choose to.

But kids CAN be "counseled" on how to feel good about themselves despite being attracted to the same sex? That is the point.

Yes, that's proven to help, the other proven to harm.

 

[emilynghiem]

Ok, let's examine this

You took a male that slept with women and helped him understand that he should be with men. Check

He would then want to be with men. check

So then he became a women. Check

So men that are attracted to men would want to be with men. Check

And this guy became a women so he could be with men that want to be with men. Or did he think that men that want to be with other men would want to be with a woman?

Or was the thinking that a man that wanted to be with women would be attracted to a women that used to be a man?

Very confusing.

If I wasn't already drunk I'd go get sloshed.

This makes my head hurt.

No I didn't take or make anyone do anything.
He was in a marriage and told me he rejected Christian teachings in the Bible that judged people for gender etc.

All I talked about going into the conversation was things like
* gender was spiritual, we are all male and female and the point is to accept the spiritual roles, so the physical roles will take care of themselves. We don't judge based on that.
things will work out naturally, and we will follow those natural laws,
but NOT by judging condemning and rejecting and trying to "control other people"

so that was most of the focus -- on stopping the judgment guilt fear and rejection

* that some eunuchs are made by God and some by man
I discussed spiritual "karma" from previous generations that may be causing people to incarnate as same sex or cross gender etc. The sin was in the past, and was not forgiven, so it passed down and seeks forgiveness and healing in this lifetime through other people.
These are not the "same people" being reincarnated, but the karma is.
The future generations may be effected by sins of the past until these are forgiven/healed.

So after my friend let go of all this fear of judgment and condemnation,
he admitted he always felt female, and resented that he couldn't be himself.
I spoke to him by addressing his "female side" and accepted him as he said. And he opened up and started to understand what unconditional love and forgiveness feels like.

That was all I sought to help him with -- to STOP the condemnation guilt and fear-based religious hangups or whatever made him distrust and reject Christianity or whatever.

After he let go, then he came to terms with himself on the inside.
That was all from his side, and I did not counsel or direct him one way or another.
He decided to come out to his wife, family and friends, see a professional counselor,
and decide how much to change his appearance and gender. I think he decided to go all the way, to take on the counseling process to prepare for actual gender reassignment.

I wanted him/her to take his time, and enjoy his new mindset and worldview and get used to it before making any lifechanging decisions. But he checked with his family and felt confident he knew what he wanted. I didn't even agree, and felt he was moving too fast and needed to take his time, but he was so happy with himself, he went on his own path.

The biggest sign that this had nothing to do with anything I said, is he didn't credit me with any of this. He knew the changes in his mind came from elsewhere. I was just the person who pointed out there were other churches and interpretations that didn't judge gay people, and he took it from there. I explained how the sin/karma could be from past generations repeating, and he accepted this could apply to him; I told him the point is to forgive and heal it in this lifetime, and it breaks the cycle, and that is the meaning in the Bible --
for forgiveness/healing in Christ to 'break the cycle" of sin/abuse/karma otherwise repeating from the past.
Whatever we forgive/heal of individually; collectively this brings salvation for all humanity to find peace.
So there is nothing negative to fear about the Bible; it describes the spiritual process for all humanity, especially coming to peace with the male and female sides of our spiritual energy and relationships.

He said he told his wife and they planned to get divorced so she could marry someone else to have a family. That part was sad, but they agreed the sooner the better so she had time to start over.
He posted some transition photos for me, early on, when he was first changing his appearance, like his hair and eyebrows. He was going to focus on his change before deciding anything else with "relationships" (so I have no idea what he wanted to do with dating or orientation, he hadn't decided that far)

His friends were just surprised to see him so happy in ways they never saw him before. Genuinely happy, instead of stuffed suppressed and faked with guilt and resentment.
When his parents asked him to please wait until AFTER his sister's wedding, so they didn't have to explain this to others, I joked that for this wedding, they were losing a son and gaining a daughter. He said they were very supportive, so for traditional Christian parents to support him that way, I could only assume it had to be the right decision and not a fluke.

I only sought to help him get over his negative interpretation of Christian religion as unforgiving when the point is to forgive unconditionally on a spiritual level, and trust the physical things to take care of themselves by God's will. It is about letting go of judgment.

I didn't foresee, expect, plan or want any of the other changes to happen, they just did.

 

[Inevitable]

I realize you are new , but kindly familiarize with the use of quotes and quote boxes , you have them somewhat fouled up -I know what I said - you know what you said but - this is an open forum and others may be a tad confused.

I don't think anybody is going to be confused

1. You state you have no claim to prove - but you do - and apparently are unable to - see you're learning newby , in no time what so ever you'll be just another cynical clueless left wing asshole - completely confortable wit the art of deflecting.

Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

A. You state - "No I did not make any claim. I simply challenged yours." but you did
make a few unsubtantiated claims such as the improper use of the word "Dysphoria"

. Really the term "sexual disphoria" it means you are unwellwith your sex. I adressed that claim, you just didn't like it.

You say it's opinion - you just made a claim - prove it

Yes, in those links there were no studies referenced. I read some claims but I saw no proof of them.

Also, this is a logical fallacy. (I love how you ignore them.) Claiming the burden of proof is on me to prove your claim wrong is absolutely fallacy.

Lastly I don't buy that the Apa was taken over by homosexuals. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. You have anything to prove that claim?

 

[Inevitable]

Ok, let's examine this

You took a male that slept with women and helped him understand that he should be with men. Check

He would then want to be with men. check

So then he became a women. Check

So men that are attracted to men would want to be with men. Check

And this guy became a women so he could be with men that want to be with men. Or did he think that men that want to be with other men would want to be with a woman?

Or was the thinking that a man that wanted to be with women would be attracted to a women that used to be a man?

Very confusing.

If I wasn't already drunk I'd go get sloshed.

This makes my head hurt.

No I didn't take or make anyone do anything.
He was in a marriage and told me he rejected Christian teachings in the Bible that judged people for gender etc.

All I talked about going into the conversation was things like
* gender was spiritual, we are all male and female and the point is to accept the spiritual roles, so the physical roles will take care of themselves. We don't judge based on that.
things will work out naturally, and we will follow those natural laws,
but NOT by judging condemning and rejecting and trying to "control other people"

so that was most of the focus -- on stopping the judgment guilt fear and rejection

* that some eunuchs are made by God and some by man
I discussed spiritual "karma" from previous generations that may be causing people to incarnate as same sex or cross gender etc. The sin was in the past, and was not forgiven, so it passed down and seeks forgiveness and healing in this lifetime through other people.
These are not the "same people" being reincarnated, but the karma is.
The future generations may be effected by sins of the past until these are forgiven/healed.

So after my friend let go of all this fear of judgment and condemnation,
he admitted he always felt female, and resented that he couldn't be himself.
I spoke to him by addressing his "female side" and accepted him as he said. And he opened up and started to understand what unconditional love and forgiveness feels like.

That was all I sought to help him with -- to STOP the condemnation guilt and fear-based religious hangups or whatever made him distrust and reject Christianity or whatever.

After he let go, then he came to terms with himself on the inside.
That was all from his side, and I did not counsel or direct him one way or another.
He decided to come out to his wife, family and friends, see a professional counselor,
and decide how much to change his appearance and gender. I think he decided to go all the way, to take on the counseling process to prepare for actual gender reassignment.

I wanted him/her to take his time, and enjoy his new mindset and worldview and get used to it before making any lifechanging decisions. But he checked with his family and felt confident he knew what he wanted. I didn't even agree, and felt he was moving too fast and needed to take his time, but he was so happy with himself, he went on his own path.

The biggest sign that this had nothing to do with anything I said, is he didn't credit me with any of this. He knew the changes in his mind came from elsewhere. I was just the person who pointed out there were other churches and interpretations that didn't judge gay people, and he took it from there. I explained how the sin/karma could be from past generations repeating, and he accepted this could apply to him; I told him the point is to forgive and heal it in this lifetime, and it breaks the cycle, and that is the meaning in the Bible --
for forgiveness/healing in Christ to 'break the cycle" of sin/abuse/karma otherwise repeating from the past.
Whatever we forgive/heal of individually; collectively this brings salvation for all humanity to find peace.
So there is nothing negative to fear about the Bible; it describes the spiritual process for all humanity, especially coming to peace with the male and female sides of our spiritual energy and relationships.

He said he told his wife and they planned to get divorced so she could marry someone else to have a family. That part was sad, but they agreed the sooner the better so she had time to start over.
He posted some transition photos for me, early on, when he was first changing his appearance, like his hair and eyebrows. He was going to focus on his change before deciding anything else with "relationships" (so I have no idea what he wanted to do with dating or orientation, he hadn't decided that far)

His friends were just surprised to see him so happy in ways they never saw him before. Genuinely happy, instead of stuffed suppressed and faked with guilt and resentment.
When his parents asked him to please wait until AFTER his sister's wedding, so they didn't have to explain this to others, I joked that for this wedding, they were losing a son and gaining a daughter. He said they were very supportive, so for traditional Christian parents to support him that way, I could only assume it had to be the right decision and not a fluke.

I only sought to help him get over his negative interpretation of Christian religion as unforgiving when the point is to forgive unconditionally on a spiritual level, and trust the physical things to take care of themselves by God's will. It is about letting go of judgment.

I didn't foresee, expect, plan or want any of the other changes to happen, they just did.

This all hinges on a fallacy. Argumentum ad naturam. Basically you are appealing to nature, and saying because something is natural it is good.

Explain to me what you mean when you use the phrase "natural therapy." Also explainwhy it is good, simply being natural isn't enough to prove that it is good.

 

[Inevitable]

Conversion therapy (also known as reparative therapy) is a range of treatments that aim to change sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Such treatments have been criticized for being pseudo-scientific.
Conversion therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The major premise of conversion therapy advocates is that majority of homosexuals are NOT genetically pre-disposed but a learned behavior.

So if the gay community believes so strongly that there is a "I gotta be me" genetic coding that pre-disposes a person to homosexuality why are they so afraid?

So afraid that "conversion therapy aimed at turning gay kids straight will soon be illegal in California, with the state's governor declaring he hopes a new law will relegate such efforts "to the dustbin of quackery."
This bill bans non-scientific 'therapies' that have driven young people to depression and suicide," Brown tweeted. "These practices have no basis in science or medicine."
California governor OKs ban on gay conversion therapy, calling it 'quackery' - CNN.com

Why is there such angst about something that a gay MUST be?

I have NO doubt some "suicides" but HOW MANY ? Where are the facts Mr. Brown?

People are gay for two reasons:
1) they truly were born with a genetic pre-disposition to homosexuality
2) The behavior is learned.

Those are the ONLY two ways that a homosexual IS a homosexual.

I would like anyone to refute that.

As is generally the case the OP on this thread has strayed off in several different directions. The OP being Conversion therapy.

Conversion therapy, Ex Gay or reparative therapy is primarily promoted by the mental health organization, NARTH. NARTH teaches that homosexuality is abnormal, unnatural,undesirable and changeable sexual behavior.

Complete data on conversion theapy is quite often withheld or suppressed. This makes the actual success rate of conversion therapy difficult to guage with any real degree of accuracy. However, several studies have revealed sufficient data which can be utilized to arrive at crude estimate of the conversion success rate:

Studies on conversion therapy for unwanted homosexual attractions yield varying success rates, ranging from 30%-70%, these rates are no different than success rates for other therapeutic practices - However the other therapeutic practices, such as substance abuse and assorted phobias and fetishes are not politically incorrect - criticizing the Gay Agenda and lifestyle is.

A key word in the preceding statement is "unwanted homosexual attractions" - as is the case with other therapeutic practices - treating somebody who doesn't want to be treated and believes they are confortable with their malady is statistically doomed to failure

Being politically charged , politically correct science [Bad Science] will frequently totally disregard the facts, and the agenda of he who shouts the loudest wins.

Socio-Fascists are currently blatantly promoting homosexuality, it is surmised as part of Big Brothers concerted effort to expedite the disintegration of the family structure and reduce the surplus population/ curtail population growth.

So Why is the gay community afraid of "conversion therapy"

It is an admission that their sexual dysphoria -homosexuality is abnormal and something which needs to be treated. If there is no disease , there should not be a need for a cure .
The succes of Conversion Therapy, is the failure of the Gay Agenda - it flies in the face of their ideological agenda and propaganda.

Conversion Therapy is far from the voo-doo quackery preached by the politically correct socio-fascists and useful idiots - it is a viable and effective method of treating a psychologiocally degenerative disease - Homosexuality

Narth goes against all science on this subject.
The Wild Reed: Debunking NARTH (Part I)

Basically they are trying to treat something that isn't a pathology. Homosexuality was removed from the DSM because there is no known pathology that exists in association with it. This hs been studied since the 1950s. I know you have a theory that gaypeople have taken over the APA or bought them out or something like that. Frankly there is no reason for me to believe that, so unless you have evidence, I will think of this like I do the builderburg group. Or Atlantis.

 

[PoliticalTorch]

Hi PT I was referring to other reputable counselors and healing practitioners.
The only ones I refer are FREE and reputable, with no fraud or complaints on record.
Home - Christian Healing Ministries is one of those free resources with good reputation,
with a medically documented study on positive effects on healing rheumatoid arthritis.

We can talk more on a separate thread.
I thought you and Jake were "absolutely deadset" on rejecting without research.
If you are open to looking, then the challenge may not be necessary because
the results speak for themselves. If people would even consider the cases where this is medically valid.

I think just the research already out there would make it clear "much more is going on" than just the ABUSIVE "forced conversion" garbage that is opposed for obvious reasons.

The false, fraudulent malpractice and abuses we hear in the news have NOTHING to do with real therapy that is free, effective and voluntary.
The successful methods are all based on "forgiveness" which by nature must be by choice and cannot be forced or it's false.

I am not a licensed therapist, and only help people like you see here online, through personal sharing and discussion, which is enough for most people to get what they need.

For the REALLY deep spiritual healing and prayer, my friend Olivia does that and has similar experience and years of effective outreach as Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt.

I'm sure they and their other volunteers and teachers in this field are all licensed. Olivia is not licensed but works alongside doctors and professionals who are; she handles the healing prayer
and they handle any procedures requiring medical or mental health procedures.

The people who do "forgiveness counseling" on a very basic level, like helping friends through personal grief or conflicts, do not need to be licensed.
(When I was talking with my friend online through his understanding of forgiveness, this was no different than me discussion or debating on here, and that was ENOUGH for him to come out as transgender
and work through his issues and decisions openly with his friends and family. I was just talking to him about not judging people or himself by the Bible but using it to teach forgiveness, and he came out.
That was not my intent at all, but that was the result of him forgiving and receiving a fuller understanding of God's love, it had that effect on him and changed how he looked at his life and what he wanted.)

No one I refer charges money, but helps for free because the healing is so needed, and the results multiply.

If you heal one person in a family or group, the whole family or group can receive healing.
So the efforts have greater reward on a spiritual level, and the most effective healers I recommend help for free because that is there calling. To help anyone who asks for help.

Thanks for being open to look into this.
I am happy to send you Dr. MacNutt's book on HEALING
for free, to aid in research in this important field. I believe it will change medicine, and
both mental health and prison systems, when healing methods are developed for medically diagnosing criminal illness using this same knowledge of spiritual causes of sickness, passed down from generations psychologically and physically. We could be treating diseases more effectively, and work alongside medicine and science so there is no conflict.

Emily, it appears that you have opened that door yourself therefore, I would like to ask you a few questions about the type of therapy you offer.

1. Are you licensed or certified by any state to offer this specific type of therapy? If so, by what state? And what is the name of the school you went to in order to study this type of therapy?

2. Have your therapies received peer-reviews by professional, medical associations and organizations? If so, which are they?

3. Have your therapies been proven to be efficacious to the overall professional healing and well-being of people who received them so that they would be able to provide a personal statement on how it worked out for them and if they experienced any trouble or pain from having received it to be forwarded to certain medical associations and state boards of medicine for their review?

4. Do you charge money for your services? And if so, how much?

5. Do you provide these services in a professional setting? If so, where specifically and the physical location of your offices, or do you offer this out of your home or like place, and are you zoned and licensed by the City you reside in as a business and where would that be please?

After hearing from you on that we might be able to talk further. As to an issue of an apology, none is needed from us and would however have to come from the source, the professional medical organizations and other places that reached those conclusions about Gay Conversion Therapy being Dangerous and Ineffective. Would you like for me to pass on your information (provided you first provide it to us) so they can check it out and take a look at what you are offering in order to be able to analyze it well so that it could be possibly recommended to others by them? You may indeed have all the proper answers to these questions so things may not apply to you if you do but I ask that as a mere precaution because I'm sure you are fully aware that there are many people out there offering bogus healing, etc. who have not received the proper training, been licensed, certified, or tested by professional sources first since it involves dealing with the public and that is always a very sensitive and delicate issue and I'm sure you can fully appreciate my concern on that. Outside of your not allowing for all these things listed, I cannot see any need for any further discussion and things will stand as they are. Thank you.

Emily states "I thought you and Jake were 'absolutely deadset' on rejecting without research." I won't answer for you, but I will certainly tell Emily that (1) research overwhelmingly rejects her beliefs and (2) she is not qualified to lecture on the subject.

Agreed! Sane and unbiased research does reject the notion or belief that a person with a Gay or Lesbian orientation *has* to change. They do not as there is absolutely no reason to. It has also been brought out that some of those who do go in for such methods or therapies are not all actually same-sex oriented individuals but some straight people also go in just to say that the therapy worked for them in order to help sell it to others and that is not at all right to be doing. That is why some studies have been rejected due to subjective results produced that would be hard to verify. In essence, it could not withstand scrutiny. Thanks again, Jake. I believe it is going about it in the wrong way to give credence to people who are capricious and have a penchant for wanting to change others by hook or by crook based on their beliefs whether they be personal or what they believe is Biblical. All can be assured that God makes no mistakes in those He creates and that is EVERYONE. If people become promiscuous, both Straight and Gay, then that is something they have to contend with and deal with personally as it is a very personal matter and if there is any judging to be made on them God will make that judgment when the time comes. In the meantime, all others butt out, please! I would say to those who think they have a right to interfere that it is not their place to judge or try to change or convert anyone by any means.

 

[PoliticalTorch]

Hi PT I was referring to other reputable counselors and healing practitioners.
The only ones I refer are FREE and reputable, with no fraud or complaints on record.
Home - Christian Healing Ministries is one of those free resources with good reputation,
with a medically documented study on positive effects on healing rheumatoid arthritis.

We can talk more on a separate thread.
I thought you and Jake were "absolutely deadset" on rejecting without research.
If you are open to looking, then the challenge may not be necessary because
the results speak for themselves. If people would even consider the cases where this is medically valid.

I think just the research already out there would make it clear "much more is going on" than just the ABUSIVE "forced conversion" garbage that is opposed for obvious reasons.

The false, fraudulent malpractice and abuses we hear in the news have NOTHING to do with real therapy that is free, effective and voluntary.
The successful methods are all based on "forgiveness" which by nature must be by choice and cannot be forced or it's false.

I am not a licensed therapist, and only help people like you see here online, through personal sharing and discussion, which is enough for most people to get what they need.

For the REALLY deep spiritual healing and prayer, my friend Olivia does that and has similar experience and years of effective outreach as Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt.

I'm sure they and their other volunteers and teachers in this field are all licensed. Olivia is not licensed but works alongside doctors and professionals who are; she handles the healing prayer
and they handle any procedures requiring medical or mental health procedures.

The people who do "forgiveness counseling" on a very basic level, like helping friends through personal grief or conflicts, do not need to be licensed.
(When I was talking with my friend online through his understanding of forgiveness, this was no different than me discussion or debating on here, and that was ENOUGH for him to come out as transgender
and work through his issues and decisions openly with his friends and family. I was just talking to him about not judging people or himself by the Bible but using it to teach forgiveness, and he came out.
That was not my intent at all, but that was the result of him forgiving and receiving a fuller understanding of God's love, it had that effect on him and changed how he looked at his life and what he wanted.)

No one I refer charges money, but helps for free because the healing is so needed, and the results multiply.

If you heal one person in a family or group, the whole family or group can receive healing.
So the efforts have greater reward on a spiritual level, and the most effective healers I recommend help for free because that is there calling. To help anyone who asks for help.

Thanks for being open to look into this.
I am happy to send you Dr. MacNutt's book on HEALING
for free, to aid in research in this important field. I believe it will change medicine, and
both mental health and prison systems, when healing methods are developed for medically diagnosing criminal illness using this same knowledge of spiritual causes of sickness, passed down from generations psychologically and physically. We could be treating diseases more effectively, and work alongside medicine and science so there is no conflict.

Emily, I see what you're getting at now. What you are offering is in the realm of Spiritual Healing as opposed to allopathic medicine. I cannot speak for others but it appears that your premise is still that a person is in need of "forgiveness." And while it may be true that all could use forgiveness, I believe it should start with the Heterosexually-oriented groups like those who willfully commit Abortion, Divorce, get Herpes thorough illicit means, Covet their neighbor's husband or wife etc. But to mainly target GLBT people and intimidate them into thinking that they need to change in some way (the premise of this thread "Why is the gay community afraid of "conversion therapy") is just plain wrong and I cannot agree with such premise as neither you or anyone else is in any position to judge another in that regard. You may also feel free to read my more lengthy response to Jake.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Any adult can seek spiritual healing and help.

But the state can interfere in the best interest of the children, and reparative therapy is not in the best interest of the children.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The better yet rhetorical question is: why are most conservatives afraid of gay Americans.

 

[GISMYS]

Jude 23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives

 

[GreenBean]

GreenBean I realize you are new , but kindly familiarize with the use of quotes and quote boxes , you have them somewhat fouled up -I know what I said - you know what you said but - this is an open forum and others may be a tad confused.

Inevitable: I don't think anybody is going to be confused

GreenBean The problem is you don't Think - period.

GreenBean You state you have no claim to prove - but you do - and apparently are unable to - see you're learning newby , in no time what so ever you'll be just another cynical clueless left wing asshole - completely confortable wit the art of deflecting.

Inevitable: Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

GreenBean Sonny Boy - hiding behind $5 words that you heard your teacher use does not drive a point home

-------------------

GreenBean You state - "No I did not make any claim. I simply challenged yours." but you did make a few unsubtantiated claims such as the improper use of the word "Dysphoria"

Inevitable: Really the term "sexual disphoria" it means you are unwell with your sex. I adressed that claim, you just didn't like it.

NOW - GreenBean I presented factual evidence , you presented your opinion little boy - now go back and ask your teacher the difference between fact and opinion and see if the academia nut you took lessons from can give you some more $5 words to hide behind.

Inevitable:Yes, in those links there were no studies referenced. I read some claims but I saw no proof of them.

NOW - GreenBean Obviously you didn't read them, and you are once again practicing deflection - like your boyfriend Howey -why let facts get in the way of your Opinons ?


Inevitable: Lastly I don't buy that the Apa was taken over by homosexuals. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. You have anything to prove that claim?

GreenBean Yup again and again it's been presented - but presenting proof to someone who refuses to back up his own opinions ,tries to present them as fact is an absolute waste of my time - I'm not your fucking errand boy ! You can'tbackupyour statements - so take a hike troll

 

[Inevitable]

GreenBean I realize you are new , but kindly familiarize with the use of quotes and quote boxes , you have them somewhat fouled up -I know what I said - you know what you said but - this is an open forum and others may be a tad confused.

Inevitable: I don't think anybody is going to be confused

GreenBean The problem is you don't Think - period.

GreenBean You state you have no claim to prove - but you do - and apparently are unable to - see you're learning newby , in no time what so ever you'll be just another cynical clueless left wing asshole - completely confortable wit the art of deflecting.

Inevitable: Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

GreenBean Sonny Boy - hiding behind $5 words that you heard your teacher use does not drive a point home

-------------------

GreenBean You state - "No I did not make any claim. I simply challenged yours." but you did make a few unsubtantiated claims such as the improper use of the word "Dysphoria"

Inevitable: Really the term "sexual disphoria" it means you are unwell with your sex. I adressed that claim, you just didn't like it.

NOW - GreenBean I presented factual evidence , you presented your opinion little boy - now go back and ask your teacher the difference between fact and opinion and see if the academia nut you took lessons from can give you some more $5 words to hide behind.

Inevitable:Yes, in those links there were no studies referenced. I read some claims but I saw no proof of them.

NOW - GreenBean Obviously you didn't read them, and you are once again practicing deflection - like your boyfriend Howey -why let facts get in the way of your Opinons ?


Inevitable: Lastly I don't buy that the Apa was taken over by homosexuals. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. You have anything to prove that claim?

GreenBean Yup again and again it's been presented - but presenting proof to someone who refuses to back up his own opinions ,tries to present them as fact is an absolute waste of my time - I'm not your fucking errand boy ! You can'tbackupyour statements - so take a hike troll

You presented an extremely paranoid conspiracy theory. I need a little more than the word of the nutcase that came up with it to believe that crap. Sorry. You have nothing you presented nothing but fallacy. Now add some ad hominem.

If your paranoid delusions were really real you wouldn't need to call me a troll.

Prove your case, it should be able to stand on it's own.

 

[GreenBean]

GreenBean I realize you are new , but kindly familiarize with the use of quotes and quote boxes , you have them somewhat fouled up -I know what I said - you know what you said but - this is an open forum and others may be a tad confused.

Inevitable: I don't think anybody is going to be confused

GreenBean The problem is you don't Think - period.

GreenBean You state you have no claim to prove - but you do - and apparently are unable to - see you're learning newby , in no time what so ever you'll be just another cynical clueless left wing asshole - completely confortable wit the art of deflecting.

Inevitable: Hyperbole is a logical fallacy.

GreenBean Sonny Boy - hiding behind $5 words that you heard your teacher use does not drive a point home

-------------------

GreenBean You state - "No I did not make any claim. I simply challenged yours." but you did make a few unsubtantiated claims such as the improper use of the word "Dysphoria"

Inevitable: Really the term "sexual disphoria" it means you are unwell with your sex. I adressed that claim, you just didn't like it.

NOW - GreenBean I presented factual evidence , you presented your opinion little boy - now go back and ask your teacher the difference between fact and opinion and see if the academia nut you took lessons from can give you some more $5 words to hide behind.

Inevitable:Yes, in those links there were no studies referenced. I read some claims but I saw no proof of them.

NOW - GreenBean Obviously you didn't read them, and you are once again practicing deflection - like your boyfriend Howey -why let facts get in the way of your Opinons ?


Inevitable: Lastly I don't buy that the Apa was taken over by homosexuals. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. You have anything to prove that claim?

GreenBean Yup again and again it's been presented - but presenting proof to someone who refuses to back up his own opinions ,tries to present them as fact is an absolute waste of my time - I'm not your fucking errand boy ! You can'tbackupyour statements - so take a hike troll

You presented an extremely paranoid conspiracy theory. I need a little more than the word of the nutcase that came up with it to believe that crap. Sorry. You have nothing you presented nothing but fallacy. Now add some ad hominem.

If your paranoid delusions were really real you wouldn't need to call me a troll.

Prove your case, it should be able to stand on it's own.

okay faggot -but if you can't present anything other than your assinine opinons from here on in -then STFU !

Here's something from Dr. Nicholas Cummings, a former president of the APA and also the man who authored the motion back in 70s to have Homosexuality removed from the DSM ... [Or actually it wasn't completely removed - just reclassified as "Sexual Dysphoria Disorder" ]

Nicholas Cummings, former President of the American Psychological Association and one of the people who led the movement to have homosexuality declassified as a mental illness speaking to an audience of fellow professionals in 2005, stated the profession of Mental Health, psychology, psychiatry is dominated by social-activist groups. Dr. Cummings stated that he has had a life long commitment to promoting diversity, and has been appalled to see activists commandeer organizations such as the APA to further their own social agenda.

As per Dr. Cummings, when the APA conducts research, they do so only "when they know what the outcome is going to be...only predictably favorable outcomes are permissible."
Beginning in the late 60s, homosexual activist groups began lobbying leading psychiatric organizations to lay the groundwork for the deletion of homosexuality as a mental disorder. Dr. Cummings in offering his proposal to declassify homosexuality as a Mental Disorder, stated

I made the resolution that being gay was not a mental illness, that it was characterological,.... I also said with that, that the APA, if it passes this resolution, will also vote to continue research that demonstrates whatever the research demonstrates. Unbiased, open research.

Dr. Rogers Wright, Cummings partner and co author of Destructive Trends in Mental Health: The Well Intentioned Path to Harm stated that "psychology has been ultra-liberal" Wright described the difficulties he has encountered with the American Psychological Association since they instituted a decision not to respond to their book in an effort to deny publicity for it. The APA actually banned the book and prohibited its members from reviewing or commenting on it. "So much for diversity and open-mindedness," Wright added.

American Psychological Association. Owned by the Gays

Even the US Congress , in one of its more sane movements Censured the APA in the case known as The Rind Controversy ... this may be the first time in US history that the legislative branch of the federal government has officially condemned and censured a scientific publication, unless the socio-fascists completely take over the Government - which is the direction we seem to be headed - it shant be the last .

In a related issue - In a letter to the APA, past and current presidents of the Society for the Scientific Study of Sex strongly objected to the APA’s politicized pseudo-science - , saying that it “cast a chill on all such research” and that in order to solve serious social problems, the search for accurate information must be protected from political considerations and pressures

Related Materials:
http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00-017_politics_of_csa.htm

http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00-018_uproar.htm