Why Isn't Everyone an Atheist?

[Boss]

I think the OP asks a really good question, one that should be turned around and asked of the 'geniuses' who are atheists. They have obviously proven the Bible is a book of contradictions and myths, so why is it so many people still believe in it?

I answered that one pretty effectively.

People are afraid of dying.

So they ignore the bullshit in the bible- a book most of them haven't read much of, anyway - because, hey their priest promised them that when they die, they'll get to live forever in a paradise with all their lost loved ones and childhood dogs.

Forget the fact that if you read the scriptures, Jesus said very few of you are actually getting into heaven.

People are afraid of dying.

Yes, I addressed "fear of mortality" in my post, did you miss that? Do people who believe in God not die? So there is no rational basis to believe that believing in God leads to immortality. Also, can you name any other living organism which fears mortality? All life strives to continue living or avoid death, but only humans worry about what happens after death. The REASON for this is our intrinsic spiritual awareness. The hard-wired understanding of something beyond mortality.

I think not. Our fear of death derives from our need to predict the future. I imagine there is a tiger behind that rock so I will move cautiously. Failure to imagine the tiger means I don't prepare for the tiger, so I get eaten. We fear death because we imagine, not because we are spiritual. It's a survival trait.

Again, where else do we find this in nature to the extent the species must logically develop an imaginary thing to cope? Other living things have survival traits and imagination, they don't invent imaginary playmates. They exhibit caution, evolve attributes, develop patterns of behavior which become instinctual.

Another serious blow to the "survival trait" argument has to be the Dark Ages, where you would have spent most of your days trying to avoid being killed, mostly by religious fanatics who didn't like what you believed. Seems to me it would have been more conducive to survival to just believe or not believe whatever you're told. People are stubborn about their spiritual beliefs.

Our fear of death comes from our contemplation and comprehension of immortality. Because we can rationalize how our human spirit is something aside from our physical presence, we distinguish ourselves from all other living species. This is the basis of human spirituality.

 

[Nutz]

I think the OP asks a really good question, one that should be turned around and asked of the 'geniuses' who are atheists. They have obviously proven the Bible is a book of contradictions and myths, so why is it so many people still believe in it?

I answered that one pretty effectively.

People are afraid of dying.

So they ignore the bullshit in the bible- a book most of them haven't read much of, anyway - because, hey their priest promised them that when they die, they'll get to live forever in a paradise with all their lost loved ones and childhood dogs.

Forget the fact that if you read the scriptures, Jesus said very few of you are actually getting into heaven.

People are afraid of dying.

Yes, I addressed "fear of mortality" in my post, did you miss that? Do people who believe in God not die? So there is no rational basis to believe that believing in God leads to immortality. Also, can you name any other living organism which fears mortality? All life strives to continue living or avoid death, but only humans worry about what happens after death. The REASON for this is our intrinsic spiritual awareness. The hard-wired understanding of something beyond mortality.

I think not. Our fear of death derives from our need to predict the future. I imagine there is a tiger behind that rock so I will move cautiously. Failure to imagine the tiger means I don't prepare for the tiger, so I get eaten. We fear death because we imagine, not because we are spiritual. It's a survival trait.

Again, where else do we find this in nature to the extent the species must logically develop an imaginary thing to cope? Other living things have survival traits and imagination, they don't invent imaginary playmates. They exhibit caution, evolve attributes, develop patterns of behavior which become instinctual.

Another serious blow to the "survival trait" argument has to be the Dark Ages, where you would have spent most of your days trying to avoid being killed, mostly by religious fanatics who didn't like what you believed. Seems to me it would have been more conducive to survival to just believe or not believe whatever you're told. People are stubborn about their spiritual beliefs.

Our fear of death comes from our contemplation and comprehension of immortality. Because we can rationalize how our human spirit is something aside from our physical presence, we distinguish ourselves from all other living species. This is the basis of human spirituality.

If anything, Christianity has to do with the fear of life, not the fear of death.

 

[teddyearp]

I'm more than willing to admit that the evidence of God's word is the entire Universe, Max . . . kindly show me this evidence please. Thank you. ~ Susan

Ha!!! If G-d came and posted an answer to your question here on this board you would then disappear, ignore it and go to a different section of the board for a few weeks. I know this from experience.

 

[Meriweather]

I too have had my own experiences. They may even be similar to yours. However, I am fairly sure that my interpretation of those experiences are quite different from yours. And so we are back to facing the unknown. If we are experiencing the same thing, then as certain as you might be as to what that means in terms of God, I am equally certain it means what I think it means. We can't both be right, if we are experiencing the same thing, but it is quite possible we can both be wrong.

We are not back to facing the unknown, even if on the off-chance you are correct and your experiences were similar to mine. Let's take a look at these lines:

The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon a cloudy sea.
The moon is a celestial object.
The moon is always female.

A poet, a scientist, and a grammar teacher present the moon from three unique perspectives, and we can probably fine numerous more--all on an object humans are fairly capable of understanding. So, imagine trying to talk about experiences (or beings) humans are not familiar with, and the only way they can be describes is with human words, human understanding--while hoping the person you are relating the experience to has an earthly background somewhat similar to yours, so they have a miniscule chance of grasping an inadequate description and explanation.

It is not that we both can't be right. It's that we are incapable of describing (and even perceiving) things the same way. We are all unique, with the strengths and weaknesses uniqueness brings to the table.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Freedom from religion foundation = American Taliban.

 

[PratchettFan]

I think the OP asks a really good question, one that should be turned around and asked of the 'geniuses' who are atheists. They have obviously proven the Bible is a book of contradictions and myths, so why is it so many people still believe in it?

I answered that one pretty effectively.

People are afraid of dying.

So they ignore the bullshit in the bible- a book most of them haven't read much of, anyway - because, hey their priest promised them that when they die, they'll get to live forever in a paradise with all their lost loved ones and childhood dogs.

Forget the fact that if you read the scriptures, Jesus said very few of you are actually getting into heaven.

People are afraid of dying.

Yes, I addressed "fear of mortality" in my post, did you miss that? Do people who believe in God not die? So there is no rational basis to believe that believing in God leads to immortality. Also, can you name any other living organism which fears mortality? All life strives to continue living or avoid death, but only humans worry about what happens after death. The REASON for this is our intrinsic spiritual awareness. The hard-wired understanding of something beyond mortality.

I think not. Our fear of death derives from our need to predict the future. I imagine there is a tiger behind that rock so I will move cautiously. Failure to imagine the tiger means I don't prepare for the tiger, so I get eaten. We fear death because we imagine, not because we are spiritual. It's a survival trait.

Again, where else do we find this in nature to the extent the species must logically develop an imaginary thing to cope? Other living things have survival traits and imagination, they don't invent imaginary playmates. They exhibit caution, evolve attributes, develop patterns of behavior which become instinctual.

Another serious blow to the "survival trait" argument has to be the Dark Ages, where you would have spent most of your days trying to avoid being killed, mostly by religious fanatics who didn't like what you believed. Seems to me it would have been more conducive to survival to just believe or not believe whatever you're told. People are stubborn about their spiritual beliefs.

Our fear of death comes from our contemplation and comprehension of immortality. Because we can rationalize how our human spirit is something aside from our physical presence, we distinguish ourselves from all other living species. This is the basis of human spirituality.

I haven't discussed this with another species, so it is difficult to tell where else it might be. Human beings have a highly developed sense of imagination. Perhaps there is a tipping point. But the same tendency to create a god is used to create the character in a novel. Yet no one claims Scarlet O'Hara was a connection to a deity.

Human beings are pack animals. But we are also, pound for pound, the weakest and most ineffective species on the planet. Our claws are useless, teeth blunt, muscles weak and senses dull. We are slow, noisy and clumsy. The only thing we have going for us is our ability to see the future. We plan, look at raw materials and envision weapons. That is how we survive. Without it, we would have died out as a species long ago. A species which does that is naturally going to wonder what happens when the body dies. We live in the future and death is the ultimate future.

You speak of the Dark Ages. I would offer the proof of the effectiveness of a survival trait is survival. Did we not survive?

 

[PratchettFan]

I too have had my own experiences. They may even be similar to yours. However, I am fairly sure that my interpretation of those experiences are quite different from yours. And so we are back to facing the unknown. If we are experiencing the same thing, then as certain as you might be as to what that means in terms of God, I am equally certain it means what I think it means. We can't both be right, if we are experiencing the same thing, but it is quite possible we can both be wrong.

We are not back to facing the unknown, even if on the off-chance you are correct and your experiences were similar to mine. Let's take a look at these lines:

The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon a cloudy sea.
The moon is a celestial object.
The moon is always female.

A poet, a scientist, and a grammar teacher present the moon from three unique perspectives, and we can probably fine numerous more--all on an object humans are fairly capable of understanding. So, imagine trying to talk about experiences (or beings) humans are not familiar with, and the only way they can be describes is with human words, human understanding--while hoping the person you are relating the experience to has an earthly background somewhat similar to yours, so they have a miniscule chance of grasping an inadequate description and explanation.

It is not that we both can't be right. It's that we are incapable of describing (and even perceiving) things the same way. We are all unique, with the strengths and weaknesses uniqueness brings to the table.

Again, you are talking about us. No matter how it might be described, the moon is just what it is. Saying it is female does not make it female. Whether we call it a celestial object or a piece of cheese doesn't change what it is. So what you have shown is just another example of belief coloring perception.

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm more than willing to admit that the evidence of God's word is the entire Universe, Max . . . kindly show me this evidence please. Thank you. ~ Susan

Ha!!! If G-d came and posted an answer to your question here on this board you would then disappear, ignore it and go to a different section of the board for a few weeks. I know this from experience.

God has posted on this board?

 

[Inevitable]

The reason why not everyone is an atheist?

Because deep down, we are all afraid of dying. and if you aren't you're an idiot.

Religion gives us the comforting hope that after we die, we continue.

Religion is a social club, nothing more. Beliefs in an afterlife has nothing to do with religion.

 

[Boss]

It depends upon what you mean by "evidence". In a legal or scientific approach, evidence is not subjective. If it is not objective and relevant, it isn't evidence. Someone might well see that differently, but then the word becomes meaningless. The whole point of something being evidence is that it can be used to demonstrate something. If it can't, then it is useless.

Even in a legal sense, evidence is still subjective, which is why we have trials by jury. You may value something as evidence more than myself or others. In fact, you may see something as evidence that I may not think meets the criteria and visa versa. It's all a matter of perspective and what you are willing to accept as evidence. Evidence only proves something is possible that you are willing to believe is possible.

I disagree your approach applies to all belief. I believe my children love me. I have had a lot of evidence to support that belief, but I can't look inside their heads to confirm it. It is an educated guess. However, what you seem to have said is that if I simply believe in God, then that will allow me to see the evidence of God in order to believe in God. Which simply means in order to get there, I have to already be there. And I will say that I agree with you, but I think that says a lot more about human beings than it does about God.

I'm glad you raised the example of your children, their love, and your evidence of it. This makes my point brilliantly. Love is something that can't be proven to exist. You say you have evidence, but I have not seen that evidence and would perhaps make a different evaluation. I may not believe your children love you and that you simply want your children to love you and have made up this myth.... a survival trait... figment of your imagination... because you fear death.

I think Love is a spiritual energy, or at least related to it. You kind of confirm this when you state that "it's an educated guess." It's an emotional feeling but it's also more, you sense love, you can see it in someone's eyes. As the Great Philosopher Boston would say, It's More Than a Feeling!

This really all arises from our own beliefs. I am assuming you are a Christian, which means you have a view on how we interact with God. I am a Buddhist and I don't believe there is any interaction with God at all. So your interpretation of the "evidence" is not going to be my interpretation because our beliefs are coloring our perceptions.

Which is basically what I've been saying, this is about our own beliefs. No one can prove their incarnation of God. I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any organized religion. I am a Spiritualist and have respect for positive religious spiritual influences. I dabble around with the Bible and the history of Abrahamic religions because they are so spiritually influential. I have a little different take on things in the Bible from most Christians, sometimes it puts me at great odds with fundamentalists. My Southern Baptist sister calls me her "Atheist brother."

It's a semantics thing, really. I am not an Atheist, but I also do not believe in a God who has human attributes. My God is omnipotent and doesn't have the needs and desires of humans, so... no caring, no loving, no anger, no condemnation or judgment. God doesn't care what you do with the power He makes available to you, that's entirely up to you. You are the keeper of your own spirit. I believe this spirit lives on after your physical presence has expired. Where it goes, may depend largely on how it was cultivated.

The Bible can be a pretty good guide on how to cultivate a positive spirit, after all, it is the basis for all Western civilization. This doesn't mean some Atheist can't pick up the Bible and find contradictions, it's full of them! But the thing they never seem to grasp is, the Bible has to be studied to be understood.

 

[PratchettFan]

It depends upon what you mean by "evidence". In a legal or scientific approach, evidence is not subjective. If it is not objective and relevant, it isn't evidence. Someone might well see that differently, but then the word becomes meaningless. The whole point of something being evidence is that it can be used to demonstrate something. If it can't, then it is useless.

Even in a legal sense, evidence is still subjective, which is why we have trials by jury. You may value something as evidence more than myself or others. In fact, you may see something as evidence that I may not think meets the criteria and visa versa. It's all a matter of perspective and what you are willing to accept as evidence. Evidence only proves something is possible that you are willing to believe is possible.

I disagree your approach applies to all belief. I believe my children love me. I have had a lot of evidence to support that belief, but I can't look inside their heads to confirm it. It is an educated guess. However, what you seem to have said is that if I simply believe in God, then that will allow me to see the evidence of God in order to believe in God. Which simply means in order to get there, I have to already be there. And I will say that I agree with you, but I think that says a lot more about human beings than it does about God.

I'm glad you raised the example of your children, their love, and your evidence of it. This makes my point brilliantly. Love is something that can't be proven to exist. You say you have evidence, but I have not seen that evidence and would perhaps make a different evaluation. I may not believe your children love you and that you simply want your children to love you and have made up this myth.... a survival trait... figment of your imagination... because you fear death.

I think Love is a spiritual energy, or at least related to it. You kind of confirm this when you state that "it's an educated guess." It's an emotional feeling but it's also more, you sense love, you can see it in someone's eyes. As the Great Philosopher Boston would say, It's More Than a Feeling!

This really all arises from our own beliefs. I am assuming you are a Christian, which means you have a view on how we interact with God. I am a Buddhist and I don't believe there is any interaction with God at all. So your interpretation of the "evidence" is not going to be my interpretation because our beliefs are coloring our perceptions.

Which is basically what I've been saying, this is about our own beliefs. No one can prove their incarnation of God. I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any organized religion. I am a Spiritualist and have respect for positive religious spiritual influences. I dabble around with the Bible and the history of Abrahamic religions because they are so spiritually influential. I have a little different take on things in the Bible from most Christians, sometimes it puts me at great odds with fundamentalists. My Southern Baptist sister calls me her "Atheist brother."

It's a semantics thing, really. I am not an Atheist, but I also do not believe in a God who has human attributes. My God is omnipotent and doesn't have the needs and desires of humans, so... no caring, no loving, no anger, no condemnation or judgment. God doesn't care what you do with the power He makes available to you, that's entirely up to you. You are the keeper of your own spirit. I believe this spirit lives on after your physical presence has expired. Where it goes, may depend largely on how it was cultivated.

The Bible can be a pretty good guide on how to cultivate a positive spirit, after all, it is the basis for all Western civilization. This doesn't mean some Atheist can't pick up the Bible and find contradictions, it's full of them! But the thing they never seem to grasp is, the Bible has to be studied to be understood.

I am truly inept at modifying how the posts work. Every attempt I have made has ended in utter failure, but I do want to respond in order. So bear with me.

1. We have a jury, but we also have a judge who determines what the jury can or cannot see. I suppose any eye witness testimony is, by its very nature, going to be subjective. But that would be the only thing a jury would be allowed to see. Any other subjective evidence would not be allowed.

2. Yes. You could disbelieve my children love me. However, you would be able to observe them as I have. It is the ability to actually observe which makes the difference. You can see the behavior and draw conclusions from objective observation. Of course, emotions and subjective beliefs and prejudices are going to play a role. But there is the opportunity for actual evidence. Such simply does not exist for spirituality. We can't both sit down and share the same experience.

3. Thanks for the clarification. That does help. It is possible we are not far apart on how we view things. However, there is a line between belief and knowledge. I admit that line can get fuzzy, but it is there and I think it is important. What you believe may well be true, what I believe may be true, what Jerry Falwell believed may well be true. We really don't know. We may have an experience which changes our perceptions, but that does not change reality. Our perceptions can be wrong, our interpretation of those perceptions can be wrong, and we can imagine the entire thing. I am utterly confident in my faith - but I could be wrong. I understand what you believe and I do not wish you to believe otherwise - but you could be wrong. If you jump off the roof you will fall, this I know. Will something happen to you after that? I haven't a clue and I don't accept that anyone else does either.

 

[Meriweather]

Again, you are talking about us. No matter how it might be described, the moon is just what it is. Saying it is female does not make it female. Whether we call it a celestial object or a piece of cheese doesn't change what it is. So what you have shown is just another example of belief coloring perception.

Grin. No, I am not talking about us. But you made my point. You had no idea of what I was talking about--while I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

 

[PratchettFan]

Again, you are talking about us. No matter how it might be described, the moon is just what it is. Saying it is female does not make it female. Whether we call it a celestial object or a piece of cheese doesn't change what it is. So what you have shown is just another example of belief coloring perception.

Grin. No, I am not talking about us. But you made my point. You had no idea of what I was talking about--while I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

I guess I'm just not smart enough. It's a pain I'll have to learn to live with.

 

[Meriweather]

I guess I'm just not smart enough. It's a pain I'll have to learn to live with.

It should never be a pain to be yourself. And don't sell yourself short--no one else is.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Religion is a social club, nothing more. Beliefs in an afterlife has nothing to do with religion.

That is a bizarrely ignorant claim.

 

[Inevitable]

Religion is a social club, nothing more. Beliefs in an afterlife has nothing to do with religion.

That is a bizarrely ignorant claim.

No it isn't.

 

[Uncensored2008]

No it isn't.

Yes, it certainly is.

 

[Boss]

I haven't discussed this with another species, so it is difficult to tell where else it might be. Human beings have a highly developed sense of imagination. Perhaps there is a tipping point. But the same tendency to create a god is used to create the character in a novel. Yet no one claims Scarlet O'Hara was a connection to a deity.

Human beings are pack animals. But we are also, pound for pound, the weakest and most ineffective species on the planet. Our claws are useless, teeth blunt, muscles weak and senses dull. We are slow, noisy and clumsy. The only thing we have going for us is our ability to see the future. We plan, look at raw materials and envision weapons. That is how we survive. Without it, we would have died out as a species long ago. A species which does that is naturally going to wonder what happens when the body dies. We live in the future and death is the ultimate future.

You speak of the Dark Ages. I would offer the proof of the effectiveness of a survival trait is survival. Did we not survive?

The only thing we have going for us is our ability to see the future. We plan, look at raw materials and envision weapons. That is how we survive.

The word you are looking for is "inspiration." Humans become inspired. Our inspiration comes from belief in powers beyond our mortal ability as individuals. Spirituality.

We live in the future and death is the ultimate future.

No, death is the end of life. What happens in the future after life requires a spiritual component.

Did we not survive?

Religion played a central role.

Civilization, or life in cities, became possible through the religious centers who were the earliest authority and government.

 

[Inevitable]

No it isn't.

Yes, it certainly is.

Nope.

 

[Boss]

I am truly inept at modifying how the posts work. Every attempt I have made has ended in utter failure, but I do want to respond in order. So bear with me.

1. We have a jury, but we also have a judge who determines what the jury can or cannot see. I suppose any eye witness testimony is, by its very nature, going to be subjective. But that would be the only thing a jury would be allowed to see. Any other subjective evidence would not be allowed.

Now you are talking about rules of evidence in a court proceeding. Those are not subjective, they are set and established as matter of law. If evidence were not subjective there would be no need for a jury. A judge would simply see the evidence and determine the person is guilty because the evidence is present. But evidence doesn't prove, it only suggests possibility. We evaluate the evidence and subjectively find it proves or isn't sufficient to prove beyond doubt.

2. Yes. You could disbelieve my children love me. However, you would be able to observe them as I have. It is the ability to actually observe which makes the difference. You can see the behavior and draw conclusions from objective observation. Of course, emotions and subjective beliefs and prejudices are going to play a role. But there is the opportunity for actual evidence. Such simply does not exist for spirituality. We can't both sit down and share the same experience.

I'm not you so I can't observe your children as you do. Yes, I can draw my own subjective conclusions from observation, and they may not match your conclusions. It's likely we can't sit down and share the same experience on anything because our perceptions of reality are different. I can tell you that there is spiritual evidence for God but if your perception is the disbelief in God or spirituality, then my evidence is of no value to you.

3. Thanks for the clarification. That does help. It is possible we are not far apart on how we view things. However, there is a line between belief and knowledge. I admit that line can get fuzzy, but it is there and I think it is important. What you believe may well be true, what I believe may be true, what Jerry Falwell believed may well be true. We really don't know. We may have an experience which changes our perceptions, but that does not change reality. Our perceptions can be wrong, our interpretation of those perceptions can be wrong, and we can imagine the entire thing. I am utterly confident in my faith - but I could be wrong. I understand what you believe and I do not wish you to believe otherwise - but you could be wrong. If you jump off the roof you will fall, this I know. Will something happen to you after that? I haven't a clue and I don't accept that anyone else does either.

Leads me to yet another point. Man can't "KNOW" anything, we can only believe we know. If I jump off the roof and activate my Buck Rogers rocket pack, I will probably not hit the ground.... so you don't know that I will fall, you believe that I will fall.