Why sane people oppose background checks

[Vandalshandle]

If everybody is so paraoid about the government doing background checks on people who buy guns, why are they not outraged that one can not be hired as a cop, or any other law enforcement person without a background check? In fact, why not be outraged at the privacy invasion of a background check done by the government on everyone that attempts to join the military?

First, being a police officer, or joining the military is not a right specified in the Constitution. Second, background checks on gun purchases has not accomplished its designed purpose to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals. Third, government always find more and more categories of people who are not allowed to keep and bear arms.

Show the list of people not allowed to own guns under federal law.

Ironicly, Lu, in Arizona, I am one of the very few people in the state that is not allowed to carry a gun...at least when I am in my Sheriff's Auxcillary Volunteer uniform.

 

[GuyPinestra]

"It's the registration lists that make confiscation so easy, just ask those poor folks in NOLA after Katrina."

I guess that means me, because I lived there, and believe me, I was poor by the time the flood receeded. Just to be sure, I just went and looked in my drawer, and, sure enough, my Colt 38 Special is still there!

Dude don't even go there. There is way too much information on New Orleans gun confiscation and cops killing unarmed citizens of the city.

It must have happened when I was taking a nap.

Ignorant by choice?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&playnext=1&list=PL85AAA739D08825C2&feature=results_video]NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Vandalshandle]

Dude don't even go there. There is way too much information on New Orleans gun confiscation and cops killing unarmed citizens of the city.

It must have happened when I was taking a nap.

Ignorant by choice?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&playnext=1&list=PL85AAA739D08825C2&feature=results_video]NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube[/ame]

No, just a Katrina survivor, who lived in New Orleans when all the stuff that you read about in your home nowhere near the place was going on. But what do I know...I was mostly just trying to survive.

 

[Luissa]

JESUS H. CHRIST, Luissa, I answered that stupid question back on Page ONE!!

ALL FFL licensees MUST do a background check for EVERY gun they sell, REGARDLESS of where they sell it.

Only PRIVATE citizens are exempt.

Does everyone who sells guns at a gun show have to be a licensed dealer? Um... No. Are you guys this retarded on real life?

Do you always project this disgusting air of moral superiority?

Lahkota posted a couple pages back a figure of 60% of gun transactions had BC's done, leaving the uninformed American (that would be YOU) with the impression that 40% of SALES have no check done.

This would be WRONG.

Over 80% of that 40%, or 32% overall, are transfers from inheritances or between family members.

Is it your position that I must do a background check on my brother, cousin, aunt or uncle if they want to buy one of my guns? Or on my son or daughter if I leave them some weapons in my will?

Moral superiority? Um no.
I don't care if Joe Bob transfers his gun to his cousin. You still don't have to be a licensed gun dealer to sell guns at a gun show.
I am calling you guys retarded because you keep trying to pretend that isn't true.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Do you always project this disgusting air of moral superiority?

Lahkota posted a couple pages back a figure of 60% of gun transactions had BC's done, leaving the uninformed American (that would be YOU) with the impression that 40% of SALES have no check done.

This would be WRONG.

Over 80% of that 40%, or 32% overall, are transfers from inheritances or between family members.

Is it your position that I must do a background check on my brother, cousin, aunt or uncle if they want to buy one of my guns? Or on my son or daughter if I leave them some weapons in my will?

Why not?

Should the operator of a daycare center be able to hire a convicted pedophile,

if he happens to be the operator's relative?

The operator of a daycare center would have as much desire to hire a pedophile as I would to transfer a firearm to someone barred from ownership.

IOW, NONE!!

What a moronic comparison!

How would you know if the person you sold the firearm to wasn't barred?

 

[GuyPinestra]

It must have happened when I was taking a nap.

Ignorant by choice?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&playnext=1&list=PL85AAA739D08825C2&feature=results_video]NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube[/ame]

No, just a Katrina survivor, who lived in New Orleans when all the stuff that you read about in your home nowhere near the place was going on. But what do I know...I was mostly just trying to survive.

Are you claiming the gun confiscations didn't happen? Those people are lying?

You have no idea where I was or what I was doing in the aftermath of that storm. I can tell you this, though. When the State troopers turned our 3 rig convoy away at Baton Rouge the folks in Mississippi were sure thankful to see us. We had water, diapers, clothing, shoes, food, etc. filling 3 53' trailers, compliments of North Georgia churches, and your idiot government said you didn't need it.

Glad you made it through, even if I don't like your tone...

 

[GuyPinestra]

Does everyone who sells guns at a gun show have to be a licensed dealer? Um... No. Are you guys this retarded on real life?

Do you always project this disgusting air of moral superiority?

Lahkota posted a couple pages back a figure of 60% of gun transactions had BC's done, leaving the uninformed American (that would be YOU) with the impression that 40% of SALES have no check done.

This would be WRONG.

Over 80% of that 40%, or 32% overall, are transfers from inheritances or between family members.

Is it your position that I must do a background check on my brother, cousin, aunt or uncle if they want to buy one of my guns? Or on my son or daughter if I leave them some weapons in my will?

Moral superiority? Um no.
I don't care if Joe Bob transfers his gun to his cousin. You still don't have to be a licensed gun dealer to sell guns at a gun show.
I am calling you guys retarded because you keep trying to pretend that isn't true.

Nobody is saying that, Luissa... Where do you get this shit? Private citizens are not required to perform background checks when they sell their private weapons, I've said that from Page 1. Where we get into difficulty is your perception that some vast amount of weapons are sold to criminals at gun shows.

Most criminals have NO DESIRE to go to a gun show, that's the purview of cops and good ole boys.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Why not?

Should the operator of a daycare center be able to hire a convicted pedophile,

if he happens to be the operator's relative?

The operator of a daycare center would have as much desire to hire a pedophile as I would to transfer a firearm to someone barred from ownership.

IOW, NONE!!

What a moronic comparison!

How would you know if the person you sold the firearm to wasn't barred?

Ummm, he/she is FAMILY??

 

[Luissa]

Do you always project this disgusting air of moral superiority?

Lahkota posted a couple pages back a figure of 60% of gun transactions had BC's done, leaving the uninformed American (that would be YOU) with the impression that 40% of SALES have no check done.

This would be WRONG.

Over 80% of that 40%, or 32% overall, are transfers from inheritances or between family members.

Is it your position that I must do a background check on my brother, cousin, aunt or uncle if they want to buy one of my guns? Or on my son or daughter if I leave them some weapons in my will?

Moral superiority? Um no.
I don't care if Joe Bob transfers his gun to his cousin. You still don't have to be a licensed gun dealer to sell guns at a gun show.
I am calling you guys retarded because you keep trying to pretend that isn't true.

Nobody is saying that, Luissa... Where do you get this shit? Private citizens are not required to perform background checks when they sell their private weapons, I've said that from Page 1. Where we get into difficulty is your perception that some vast amount of weapons are sold to criminals at gun shows.

Most criminals have NO DESIRE to go to a gun show, that's the purview of cops and good ole boys.

You, big rig, and QW keep repeating it. Sorry.
I have also posted a link where juveniles have been sold guns at gun shows, and actually account for 10% of juvenile gun crimes.
If you want to legally sell your gun to a family member go right ahead. If you want to sell guns at a gun show you should be required to perform a back ground check and/or ID your customer.
It's pretty simple.

 

[Luissa]

So lets see big rig posted that something like 1% of gun crimes are committed by guns purchased at gun shows, and QW posted that 2% of people incarcerated for gun crimes purchased them at gun shows.
That would 100+ deaths, and almost 600 injuries.
To me one is too many, but whateves.

 

[Clementine]

Or does pointing out that this is happening prove I am paranoid?

Yup. Most, if nearly all Americans oppose making it legal for convicted criminals and certifiably mentally ill people to buy guns.

Here you embrace it.

Fucking moron.

No one is embracing it. The issue here is that some are trying to change the criteria used to determine that a person is mentally ill and they are suggesting that poor grades indicates that. I knew this would happen. They are going to use the most minor problems people have to claim that they are not competent to own guns.

This is illegal and the school officials who participated in this should be charged, as well as the county officials.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Moral superiority? Um no.
I don't care if Joe Bob transfers his gun to his cousin. You still don't have to be a licensed gun dealer to sell guns at a gun show.
I am calling you guys retarded because you keep trying to pretend that isn't true.

Nobody is saying that, Luissa... Where do you get this shit? Private citizens are not required to perform background checks when they sell their private weapons, I've said that from Page 1. Where we get into difficulty is your perception that some vast amount of weapons are sold to criminals at gun shows.

Most criminals have NO DESIRE to go to a gun show, that's the purview of cops and good ole boys.

You, big rig, and QW keep repeating it. Sorry.
I have also posted a link where juveniles have been sold guns at gun shows, and actually account for 10% of juvenile gun crimes.
If you want to legally sell your gun to a family member go right ahead. If you want to sell guns at a gun show you should be required to perform a back ground check and/or ID your customer.
It's pretty simple.

So deal with the 90%, then. Why do you want to 'go after' the small end of the problem first? That makes no sense to me. You can start by urging your Representatives to quit mollycoddling criminals and actually ENFORCE the laws we already have on the books. Quit giving probation to career teenaged criminals. Quit letting violent criminals out of jail.

Start with that, and when you've done so we can worry about the rest.

Until then, forget it.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The operator of a daycare center would have as much desire to hire a pedophile as I would to transfer a firearm to someone barred from ownership.

IOW, NONE!!

What a moronic comparison!

How would you know if the person you sold the firearm to wasn't barred?

Ummm, he/she is FAMILY??

So let's get your actual position straight here.

You support mandatory background checks for all gun transfers except those within one's immediate family?

lol, I don't think so...I think you're lying now.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes, the TERM exists.

So does the term warp drive, yet there is no warp drive either.

The gun show loophole is that unlicensed gun owners can sell guns at gun shows without doing back ground checks.
Does everyone at a gun show who is selling guns have to perform a background check? No
Which...............Wait for it...............There is a gun show loophole.
It isn't rocket science.

In 1998, over 4,400 gun shows were conducted around the country. 478 were held in Texas alone.1 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) estimates on average 2,500 – 5,000 gun shows are held annually. In general, between 25% to 50% of sellers are not licensed dealers.2 The access to anonymous sales and the availability of large numbers of secondhand guns makes gun shows attractive to criminals and other prohibited purchasers. A federal study found that 10% of guns used in crime by juveniles were sold either at a gun show or a flea market, and in 1999, gun shows were associated with approximately 26,000 firearms used in crime.3, 4

Gun Show Loophole Frequently Asked Questions - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Here is a link the document they used as a source
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/treas/treas-gun-shows-brady-checks-and-crime-gun-traces.pdf

I thought you didn't want to ban guns, can you tell me why you are using the Brady Campaign to Ban Every Fucking Gun as a source? Did you notice they are using is using an old, bogus, study to make their point? Or that even they admit that the gun show loophole does not actually exist?

Want to tell me again how I do not know what your position is? If you use old data, a source that openly wants to ban guns, and using their admission that something does not exist as a basis for expanding background checks I am presented with three basic options, and a range of sub options, in determining your position on a subject.

1. You are so stupid you actually believe that old data still applies even though 18 different states place restrictions on private sales at gun shows.
2. You are lying about not wanting to ban guns.
3. Some combination of the above.

I am pretty sure you are not so stupid you actually believe that 20 year old estimates that were made before states started restricting the sales you are complaining about, that leaves me with the fact that you actually do not care the data is wrong, and are lying. I am not sure whether you are lying to yourself or not, but I am not going to pretend you are telling the truth simply because you refuse to accept reality.


They are lying to you, and your insistence on parroting them just turns you into a tool.

 

[GuyPinestra]

How would you know if the person you sold the firearm to wasn't barred?

Ummm, he/she is FAMILY??

So let's get your actual position straight here.

You support mandatory background checks for all gun transfers except those within one's immediate family?

lol, I don't think so...I think you're lying now.

I see you're having your typical difficulty following a conversation...

Is it your position that I must do a background check on my brother, cousin, aunt or uncle if they want to buy one of my guns? Or on my son or daughter if I leave them some weapons in my will?

Why not?

Should the operator of a daycare center be able to hire a convicted pedophile,

if he happens to be the operator's relative?

The operator of a daycare center would have as much desire to hire a pedophile as I would to transfer a firearm to someone barred from ownership.

IOW, NONE!!

What a moronic comparison!

How would you know if the person you sold the firearm to wasn't barred?

Ummm, he/she is FAMILY??

You really should try to concentrate a little more, it would help the flow of the conversation.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Oh! For fuck sakes. That point just went far far far over your head.

My point seems to go over yours, governments do not protect rights, they eat them.

Like I said, you can lose faith in your government but it is like you dont have faith in the constitution or the system the founding fathers set up............Like I said, my point flew far far far far far over your head. It is actually pretty funny to watch.

I am actually waiting for you to answer my DOL questions regarding driver's license...And exactly how you were trying to make a point with that..Because if you were trying to back up your point of view.. It would be quite hilarious. What I have to do to keep my driver licenses, is the number one reason why I wanted you to answer. But I don't think you will.

I did not lose faith in my government, I never had any faith in government at any point in my life. I watched as the government supported people who were fighting against rights in the 1960s, and I see the lack of tolerance now for people of different beliefs. That is happening because the government is becoming more secretive and less tolerant of individual freedom, not because the government is working to protect our rights. The system the Founders set up floundered when we went to war to prevent people from making their own choices. It has not improved since then.

The point I am trying to make with the drivers license is quite simple, there is no gun show loophole. You keep insisting that something that has nothing to do with gun shows somehow proves their is a loophole for gun shows. I try to point out how absurd that is by creating an equally stupid example, and you keep floundering because you insist that I am wrong and that you are right.

In summation, mocking your point of view is not an attempt to back up anything, it is just mocking your point of view.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Ignorant by choice?

NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube

No, just a Katrina survivor, who lived in New Orleans when all the stuff that you read about in your home nowhere near the place was going on. But what do I know...I was mostly just trying to survive.

Are you claiming the gun confiscations didn't happen? Those people are lying?

You have no idea where I was or what I was doing in the aftermath of that storm. I can tell you this, though. When the State troopers turned our 3 rig convoy away at Baton Rouge the folks in Mississippi were sure thankful to see us. We had water, diapers, clothing, shoes, food, etc. filling 3 53' trailers, compliments of North Georgia churches, and your idiot government said you didn't need it.

Glad you made it through, even if I don't like your tone...

We thank you for your help.

And, no, nobody confiscated any guns unless they were breaking the law at the time they were carrying them...which would include anyone carrying a concealed eapon without a permit.

 

[GuyPinestra]

No, just a Katrina survivor, who lived in New Orleans when all the stuff that you read about in your home nowhere near the place was going on. But what do I know...I was mostly just trying to survive.

Are you claiming the gun confiscations didn't happen? Those people are lying?

You have no idea where I was or what I was doing in the aftermath of that storm. I can tell you this, though. When the State troopers turned our 3 rig convoy away at Baton Rouge the folks in Mississippi were sure thankful to see us. We had water, diapers, clothing, shoes, food, etc. filling 3 53' trailers, compliments of North Georgia churches, and your idiot government said you didn't need it.

Glad you made it through, even if I don't like your tone...

We thank you for your help.

And, no, nobody confiscated any guns unless they were breaking the law at the time they were carrying them...which would include anyone carrying a concealed eapon without a permit.

You didn't bother watching the video, did you?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It would be hard to figure out, you know without a paper trail.

UC Davis found that less than 2% of people incarcerated for crimes involving guns bought their guns at a gun show. Given that they did not provide any data on whether these people had a record at the time of the purchase I am willing to bet that most, if not all, of them did not have a record when they purchased the gun.

Do you have a link?


You really have a problem with linking info you get from a website.

It is in the gun show loophole thread. Some idiot posted the study to prove the gun show loophole lets criminals buy guns through gun shows, and I used their numbers to prove they found that less than 4% of sales in the entire country are conducted without background checks. They countered this with the same bogus study you quoted, and then claimed to have unpublished anecdotal evidence including video taped interviews with sellers saying they are willing to break the law that supported their conclusion that the gun show loophole allows criminals to buy guns.

This is the side that claims it is reasonable.

 

[Luissa]

My point seems to go over yours, governments do not protect rights, they eat them.

Like I said, you can lose faith in your government but it is like you dont have faith in the constitution or the system the founding fathers set up............Like I said, my point flew far far far far far over your head. It is actually pretty funny to watch.

I am actually waiting for you to answer my DOL questions regarding driver's license...And exactly how you were trying to make a point with that..Because if you were trying to back up your point of view.. It would be quite hilarious. What I have to do to keep my driver licenses, is the number one reason why I wanted you to answer. But I don't think you will.

I did not lose faith in my government, I never had any faith in government at any point in my life. I watched as the government supported people who were fighting against rights in the 1960s, and I see the lack of tolerance now for people of different beliefs. That is happening because the government is becoming more secretive and less tolerant of individual freedom, not because the government is working to protect our rights. The system the Founders set up floundered when we went to war to prevent people from making their own choices. It has not improved since then.

The point I am trying to make with the drivers license is quite simple, there is no gun show loophole. You keep insisting that something that has nothing to do with gun shows somehow proves their is a loophole for gun shows. I try to point out how absurd that is by creating an equally stupid example, and you keep floundering because you insist that I am wrong and that you are right.

In summation, mocking your point of view is not an attempt to back up anything, it is just mocking your point of view.

Just answer the question, can you sell Guns at a gun show without being a dealer?
It is so simple but it's like the three of you have a mental block.
And as for license, no you didn't. You realized your statement was stupid after the fact.