Why the 2nd Amendment needs to be reconsidered...

[9thIDdoc]

"You have the right to not be disarmed and that's it."
Wrong. I have the right to keep and bear arms without infringment. The courts have ruled that reasonable regulation is not infringement but that unreasonble bans-as in Chicago and New York-are and are therefore unConstitutional. Unless someone can prove that the 10 yr. ban of "assault weapons" resulted in a decided increase in public saftey-and the burden of proff is on the government-Obama & Co. are simply pissing upwind. Making you get background checks and register your weapons isn't violating your rights.

"With those changes the guns that criminal possess will fade away."
Get real. Where do you think they're going to "fade away" to? Guns are highly durable items that can be fuctional for literally hundreds of years. They aren't all that hard to make or repair. No, even if no new guns were made or imported legally, there would be no shortage for a very long time. If there ever was criminals would get them from the police, military, or government. No problem. Unless of course you are determined to be a law abiding citizen.

 

[Dubya]

If all firearms are registered to owners with background checks, ballistic tested and the registration has to be renewed each year, then criminals are going to run out of guns. Who wants to kill someone with a gun that has a ballistic test on file?

Criminals already commiting the crime of not registering or stealing a registered gun.

Guns will still be stolen and a requirement I mentioned was to immediately report stolen guns. The gun can't be registered by a new owner, because there is a record it is stolen. Only a criminal needing a gun would have use for it. It has no value in the general market, because getting caught with it is admitting to accepting stolen property. The person buying that stolen gun is suppose to get a background check and register that gun. When the person doesn't do that, they know it's stolen property. Stolen guns would be hard to market, unless someone knows a criminal. If that criminal does anything requiring a search of his residence and that gun shows up, he'll snitch you out in a minute. It doesn't sound like happy days for the thief.

Criminals get away with possessing stolen guns now, because the serial number isn't registered. Some street punk carrying that stolen gun in the city with a cop suspecting and searching him is in deep shit with turd paddles.

 

[Dubya]

a LOT of people have guns. Just like a LOT of kids play video games. Just like a LOT of people drink alcohol. Just like a LOT of people conduct themselves responsibly with a vast array of behaviors that you might think would create utopia if nixed.


Is there supposed to be a correlation between fists, knives and guns?

To be honest, I didn't come here to debate with anyone about guns. You can believe what you want until you get your grass root effort on and scrap the second amendment. However, and this is the point that you are missing here, I'm as liberal as they come on this forum and I'm telling you that your illogical fascination with scapegoating guns is as much of an albatross to the left as abortion hating dogma junkies are to the right. If you can't trust them with their guns then you have no reason to think they should trust you with your choice of liberty.


reflect on the bold text a minute.

Did someone make you post? These assholes claim that no laws can stop gun violence and I showed them laws that would. If all firearms are registered to owners with background checks, ballistic tested and the registration has to be renewed each year, then criminals are going to run out of guns. Who wants to kill someone with a gun that has a ballistic test on file? A gun that isn't registered is forfeited. In a city, if you get caught walking around with a gun, you lose it, unless you have a carry permit.

So they have to spend a couple hours a year to make it work, big deal! They can feel safer in their homes as gun crime disappears. I don't see why you can't have a system like that and allow assault weapons.

first bold is nothing less than fantasy projection.

second bold is mere conjecture.

Like I said, go get your grass root effort on and strike down the second amendment. Or, sit there and wonder why everyone doesn't fall in line behind your silly ass opinion about the cure for violence while remaining as much of a cancer to the left as Tony Perkins is the the right.

Why don't you quote what I suggested, asshole, because you haven't seen it, so you don't even know what it is?

 

[OODA_Loop]

Guns will still be stolen and a requirement I mentioned was immediately report stolen guns.

Criminals will not register anyways.

I dont think the fear of possessing an unregistered gun by a felon already prohibited form owning it in the first place is what will suddenly bring about compliance by the adding of one more law.

 

[hzhang]

Present USA is very different from the USA 200 years ago. We should consider "ban guns"

 

[Dubya]

Guns will still be stolen and a requirement I mentioned was immediately report stolen guns.

Criminals will not register anyways.

I dont think the fear of possessing an unregistered gun by a felon already prohibited form owning it in the first place is what will suddenly bring about compliance by the adding of one more law.

A burglar is a criminal, but he's also a criminal almost universally smart enough to never carry a gun, whether the gun is legally his or not. What makes you think all the criminals in the world are an organized unit, they aren't. An individual person who commits crimes only knows a limited amount of people. People don't snatch up stolen property and the items have to be sold. When a stolen gun loses it's market to the general public, then it's hard to find another criminal who needs a gun to purchase the stolen gun.

 

[OODA_Loop]

A burglar is a criminal, but he's also a criminal almost universally smart enough to never carry a gun, whether the gun is legally his or not. What makes you think all the criminals in the world are an organized unit, they aren't. An individual person who commits crimes only knows a limited amount of people. People don't snatch up stolen property and the items have to be sold. When a stolen gun loses it's market to the general public, then it's hard to find another criminal who needs a gun to purchase the stolen gun.

I get the distinct feeling you make stuff up as you go along.

 

[daveman]

Present USA is very different from the USA 200 years ago. We should consider "ban guns"

No, we shouldn't.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Present USA is very different from the USA 200 years ago. We should consider "ban guns"

You should consider "English learn", Yoda.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Maybe the president shouldn't control the air force since there were no planes in 1776.

Not sure what that had to do with anything I said, but okay, please go there.

Incidently, the government DID make allowances for airplanes as part of the armed forces. They created the Air Force as a separate branch of the military and combined the Navy and War Departments into a unified "Department of Defense"....

In short they ADAPTED to the technology.

MOre to the point, if you use the logic of the National Rampage Association, private citizens should be able to have armed fighter craft... but I think the FAA would want to have a word with you if you tried that.

You are very much talking out of your ass.

 

[daveman]

Maybe the president shouldn't control the air force since there were no planes in 1776.

Not sure what that had to do with anything I said, but okay, please go there.

Incidently, the government DID make allowances for airplanes as part of the armed forces. They created the Air Force as a separate branch of the military and combined the Navy and War Departments into a unified "Department of Defense"....

In short they ADAPTED to the technology.

MOre to the point, if you use the logic of the National Rampage Association, private citizens should be able to have armed fighter craft... but I think the FAA would want to have a word with you if you tried that.

You are very much talking out of your ass.

That's Joe's preferred source of "facts".

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's hard to beat people to death or kill them with a knife. It's easy with a gun.

and yet I don't see the population of gun owners doing that.

the ease of killing doesn't belay the individual will that it takes to choose to kill.

Everybody doesn't have a gun, so how can you explain homicide by gun is nearly 4 times what it is with fists and knives?

Because a lot of criminals have guns that they got illegally.

Criminals won't obey the law. So if you want guns off the street then it should be a mandatory life in prison for anyone committing a crime with a gun.

 

[Dubya]

A burglar is a criminal, but he's also a criminal almost universally smart enough to never carry a gun, whether the gun is legally his or not. What makes you think all the criminals in the world are an organized unit, they aren't. An individual person who commits crimes only knows a limited amount of people. People don't snatch up stolen property and the items have to be sold. When a stolen gun loses it's market to the general public, then it's hard to find another criminal who needs a gun to purchase the stolen gun.

I get the distinct feeling you make stuff up as you go along.

You ought to have the feeling that you are old enough to know these things.

 

[kwc57]

Actually, what you'll do is go out with a false sense of security... because that's all a gun in the home is...

Cases of gun defending homes are like Loch Ness Monster sightings- rare and don't really hold up to scrutiny.

You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown.

]

No, they really don't stand up... but that's okay, man, I know that you need to keep toughting these few rare cases because hey, people are finally getting serious about gun control.

You remind me of my dog. When he gets in trouble, he hides his face and thinks that since he can't see you, you can't see him. Dismissing evidence from within the last month as "rare" makes you look like the moron you are. Bad dog!

 

[kwc57]

Recently I started a folder on gun contol in by favorites. I would suggest someone interested in this topic do the same.



Source: Obama?s 23 Executive Orders on Gun Control « Just The Facts, Ma'am

Rhetoric is not going to influence these efforts to make America safer.

3. Affects the States, who are law abiding to NICS by dangling funds to keep them safe.
Effect on criminals ? Answer " None.

4. Indeed finds new ways to target those presently abiding the law.
Effect on criminals ? Answer" None.

Great examples to prove my point.

Thanks.

It affects criminals and is nonsense to claim otherwise. The first two were about people who were mentally ill.

People who oppose these comprehensive reforms are really showing the world where they are coming from. The opposition to these reforms places the people who do it on the fringe of our society. Since these people have put themselves there, they no longer have a voice in our society. No one is going to listen to them and no one cares what they want.

It's called the constitution. Supposedly, Obama knows all about it. His actions prove otherwise.

 

[Dubya]

Guns will still be stolen and a requirement I mentioned was immediately report stolen guns.

Criminals will not register anyways.

I dont think the fear of possessing an unregistered gun by a felon already prohibited form owning it in the first place is what will suddenly bring about compliance by the adding of one more law.

Presently, a gun is sold and it is lost in society. If the gun ever shows up connected to a crime and they trace the person who purchased the gun, the person just says they sold it and they don't even have to know who they sold it to. The system is designed to put guns in the hands of criminals. If all guns require registration, then unregistered guns can be confiscated. The cops in NYC were profiling people they suspected to have guns and would stop and search them. That is what caused the homicide rate to decline so much.

Criminals run foul of the law and opportunities come to search their residences. The supply of guns in the hands of criminals would decline and only a criminal who could pass a background check could buy a gun. If he uses the gun, the ballistics test can trace it to him. If a burglar steals a gun and sells it to someone who will rat him out, the burglar gets a trafficing charge, so he's going to jail for awhile. It isn't like the old days when a criminal can find a crack whore who can pass a background check, go to a gun show and buy all the weapons he wants. The weapons can't be sold or given away without getting a background check on the buyer/new owner. Every year the guns have to have their registration renewed and a ballistics test sent to the FBI.

 

[Foxfyre]

Guns will still be stolen and a requirement I mentioned was immediately report stolen guns.

Criminals will not register anyways.

I dont think the fear of possessing an unregistered gun by a felon already prohibited form owning it in the first place is what will suddenly bring about compliance by the adding of one more law.

Presently, a gun is sold and it is lost in society. If the gun ever shows up connected to a crime and they trace the person who purchased the gun, the person just says they sold it and they don't even have to know who they sold it to. The system is designed to put guns in the hands of criminals. If all guns require registration, then unregistered guns can be confiscated. The cops in NYC were profiling people they suspected to have guns and would stop and search them. That is what caused the homicide rate to decline so much.

Criminals run foul of the law and opportunities come to search their residences. The supply of guns in the hands of criminals would decline and only a criminal who could pass a background check could buy a gun. If he uses the gun, the ballistics test can trace it to him. If a burglar steals a gun and sells it to someone who will rat him out, the burglar gets a trafficing charge, so he's going to jail for awhile. It isn't like the old days when a criminal can find a crack whore who can pass a background check, go to a gun show and buy all the weapons he wants. The weapons can't be sold or given away without getting a background check on the buyer/new owner. Every year the guns have to have their registration renewed and a ballistics test sent to the FBI.

The one thing you left out of your commentary was that criminals who could not pass a background check would not be able to buy guns legally. Do not be so naive to think they would not be able to buy guns. It is completely illegal for us to sell guns to members of the Mexican drug cartels and Mexico has some of the toughest gun laws anywhere in the world including all that our President wants plus a whole lot more restrictions and rules. And yet the drug cartels have no problem whatsoever acquiring however many guns, including so called fully automatic assault rifles, they want. Mexico's gun death ratio per capita is two and half times more than ours.

Making recrational addictive drugs illegal has not kept them off the street and/or inaccessible to anybody determined to have them.

When you ban something that is important to people, invariably a lucrative black market will be put into place to furnish the product illegally. But legal or illegal, it will still be available.

 

[Dubya]

Criminals will not register anyways.

I dont think the fear of possessing an unregistered gun by a felon already prohibited form owning it in the first place is what will suddenly bring about compliance by the adding of one more law.

Presently, a gun is sold and it is lost in society. If the gun ever shows up connected to a crime and they trace the person who purchased the gun, the person just says they sold it and they don't even have to know who they sold it to. The system is designed to put guns in the hands of criminals. If all guns require registration, then unregistered guns can be confiscated. The cops in NYC were profiling people they suspected to have guns and would stop and search them. That is what caused the homicide rate to decline so much.

Criminals run foul of the law and opportunities come to search their residences. The supply of guns in the hands of criminals would decline and only a criminal who could pass a background check could buy a gun. If he uses the gun, the ballistics test can trace it to him. If a burglar steals a gun and sells it to someone who will rat him out, the burglar gets a trafficing charge, so he's going to jail for awhile. It isn't like the old days when a criminal can find a crack whore who can pass a background check, go to a gun show and buy all the weapons he wants. The weapons can't be sold or given away without getting a background check on the buyer/new owner. Every year the guns have to have their registration renewed and a ballistics test sent to the FBI.

The one thing you left out of your commentary was that criminals who could not pass a background check would not be able to buy guns legally. Do not be so naive to think they would not be able to buy guns. It is completely illegal for us to sell guns to members of the Mexican drug cartels and Mexico has some of the toughest gun laws anywhere in the world including all that our President wants plus a whole lot more restrictions and rules. And yet the drug cartels have no problem whatsoever acquiring however many guns, including so called fully automatic assault rifles, they want. Mexico's gun death ratio per capita is two and half times more than ours.

Making recrational addictive drugs illegal has not kept them off the street and/or inaccessible to anybody determined to have them.

When you ban something that is important to people, invariably a lucrative black market will be put into place to furnish the product illegally. But legal or illegal, it will still be available.

You've only caught part of what I said. All guns in the country require renewing the registration each year and they can only be sold with a background check on the buyer. Guns purchased at a gun show are sent to a place near your residence where you get your registrations renewed. A gun shop would be the best choice. Since you have passed your background check, you can pick that weapon up after a cooling off period. If it's a new weapon, the ballistics test may have been done at the manufacturers, but every registered gun in the country has the ballistics examination of it's bullets in an FBI data base. Unregistered weapons are confiscated and the possessor is fined/jailed and loses his ability to pass a background check for a period of time determined by the case. To make it easy on the person owning multiple guns, they can all have their registration renewed at the same time each year or in more than a single visit, if the person chooses. The fees would be minor, but they would be a steady stream of income for a gun store. Photos are also taken during renewal and registrations.

It boils down to, we aren't going to be supplying the Mexican Drug Cartel with weapons from our gun shows and stores and we aren't going to be supplying street gangs. Patterns of trafficing are going to be easy to spot and people are going to have to answer to a gun going missing at the registration renewal time. These times would be spread throughout the year, so an initial purchase would require renewal in less than a year. The information of the buyer and background check is kept on file and isn't destroyed like it is now, within 24 hours. Every weapon leaving a manufacturer is registered to someone, even if it's the owner of the gun store and there are ballistic tests on file.

I can add more, but I think you get the picture. Every tool will be used to assist law enforcement and stop illegal trafficing of firearms. The inventory of any gun store is known. A serial number can be instantly traced from manufacturer to where it was sold, who bought it and their picture.

As unregistered firearms fade from the streets, it's not going to be smart to shoot someone without good reason. Cops in our cities are going to be on the lookout for people suspected of carrying weapons to remove them from their streets. Under a system like that, people could have weapons such as assault weapons and if society thought it was becoming a problem, they could make them Title II weapons, which people are still allowed to buy. The manufacturers have lists of guns sold in this country, so a good idea of how many weapons haven't been registered can be made. Yes, some are destroyed and some are exported, but there is information there useful for law enforcement.

As far as the drug problems go, it probably needs it's own thread. I've heard the arguments and I think the best solution is for the world to stand up to countries exporting drugs and stop it at the source. If that happened, Mexico would return to the jolly country it used to be.

 

[saveliberty]

You are a moron Dubya.

The new owners are required to register, not the current one. What current owner isn't going to report their gun stolen? You're burdening a law abiding citizen for no reason.

 

[Mushroom]

Presently, a gun is sold and it is lost in society. If the gun ever shows up connected to a crime and they trace the person who purchased the gun, the person just says they sold it and they don't even have to know who they sold it to.

Actually, selling a firearm without going through the background check is illegal. And if somebody tries to claim that, then they are liable for prosecution for avoiding the mandatory background check laws.

All to often the problem is not the guns themselves, but the refusal of law-enforcement to prosecute violators. Like the idiot that transported a loaded shotgun to a gun show last weekend. He violated multiple laws, but I bet he will not be charged with anything. People illegally sell their guns all the time, but unless they are selling large quantities nobody cares.

About 10 years ago I was at a yard sale where a guy was selling an MP5 illegally. I mentioned this to him, and he said he did not care. I then called the police department, and they said it was not their problem. And this was not the first time this had happened, I have tried to get law enforcement involved many times when I see this going on at flea markets and yard sales, and not a single time have they ever responded.

We do not need more gun laws, what we need is enforcement of the laws already on the books.