Why the USSR won against Nazi Germany

[rightwinger]

Interesting POV but I believe the USA could of & would have been able to destroy Germany w/out the USSR &/or the British........

The immense industrial base simply could not be matched by Germany, especially after the bombings began.....

If we really were set on it, I think we could have ultimately defeated them. But at great cost

If Germany did not have to worry about it's Eastern Front they would have had three times the number of Divisions in the west. D Day would have been a massacre and we would have had to fight for every piece of ground.
The US would have had to lose a million troops to defeat the Germans without the Russians. I don't think the American people would have stood for it

Good points, but remember they declared war on us......

It would have come @ a great loss perhaps, but I would not think it would play out exactly the same either....... North Africa & Italy etc would have played a different role...

The wrench here would be the role/support, if any, from the USSR.......

Keep in mind the USSR and Germany had an alliance until 1940. If they maintained the alliance and the soviets supported them with troops and fuel we never would have recaptured Europe

 

[Dragon]

One point of history to consider: we did take losses comparable to those we would have had to take to beat Nazi Germany solo in the American Civil War. On the other hand, much lower casualties were sufficient to make us call it quits in Vietnam. The question is, in terms of motivation, how close was World War II to the Civil War as compared to Vietnam? Somewhere in between, but leaning which way?

Materially we could have done it. Would we? I really don't know.

EDIT: Another point to consider is that if we were in it by ourselves, the war would probably have dragged on past August 1945, at which point a certain new weapon would have entered the mix . . .

Another edit: There's no way the Soviet Union would have supported Nazi Germany with troops and fuel. Stalin was happy to grab half of Poland while the Germans did the real fighting, but he wasn't going to actually put anything of his on the line for Hitler.

 

[rightwinger]

. There's no way the Soviet Union would have supported Nazi Germany with troops and fuel. Stalin was happy to grab half of Poland while the Germans did the real fighting, but he wasn't going to actually put anything of his on the line for Hitler

I imagine it would depend on how big a slice of the pie Hitler was willing to give

 

[Dragon]

. There's no way the Soviet Union would have supported Nazi Germany with troops and fuel. Stalin was happy to grab half of Poland while the Germans did the real fighting, but he wasn't going to actually put anything of his on the line for Hitler

I imagine it would depend on how big a slice of the pie Hitler was willing to give

Well, that's true, but another thing to recognize is that Hitler considered the Soviet Union the main enemy, and Russia was the goal of his whole program, so any accommodation he made with Stalin was going to be a temporary arrangement of convenience. It's interesting, considering how appalling his program and goals were, that he set it all out and published it, but he did. It went like this:

Step 1: Take over the German government and unify the ethnic Germans in central Europe under one government.

Step 2: Knock France out of the war before doing anything else, so as to allow a one-front war against Russia.

Step 3: If at war with Britain at this point, make peace.

Step 4: Conquer Russia as far west as the Ural Mountains. Stop and go on the defensive against any organized forces that remained.

Step 5: Systematically work and starve to death every inhabitant of eastern Europe from the eastern German border to the Ural Mountains, replacing them with German colonists.

Step 6: Breed a huge generation of Germans, which would then dominate the world.

He managed the first two steps and then ran into trouble with the third and fourth, which between them lost him the war.

So in Hitler's thinking, war with Russia was the whole point; everything else was a means to that end. To give up on that so as to protect his western front wasn't something he was going to do.

 

[MaryL]

What did the Soviets "WIN"? Stalin killed more people than Hitler. His OWN people....And Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis so the Soviets could rape Poland. Russia was a victim, but it wasn't the Nazis that were the enemy.

 

[rightwinger]

What did the Soviets "WIN"? Stalin killed more people than Hitler. His OWN people....And Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis so the Soviets could rape Poland. Russia was a victim, but it wasn't the Nazis that were the enemy.

Based on their treatment at the hands of the Nazis, I'm pretty sure they were viewed as the enemy

 

[Dragon]

What did the Soviets "WIN"? Stalin killed more people than Hitler. His OWN people....And Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis so the Soviets could rape Poland. Russia was a victim, but it wasn't the Nazis that were the enemy.

Based on their treatment at the hands of the Nazis, I'm pretty sure they were viewed as the enemy

Yes, and as noted above, Hitler had plans to kill literally ALL of them, which Stalin, horrible though he was, certainly had no intention of doing.

 

[DCJ]

If we really were set on it, I think we could have ultimately defeated them. But at great cost

If Germany did not have to worry about it's Eastern Front they would have had three times the number of Divisions in the west. D Day would have been a massacre and we would have had to fight for every piece of ground.
The US would have had to lose a million troops to defeat the Germans without the Russians. I don't think the American people would have stood for it

Good points, but remember they declared war on us......

It would have come @ a great loss perhaps, but I would not think it would play out exactly the same either....... North Africa & Italy etc would have played a different role...

The wrench here would be the role/support, if any, from the USSR.......

Keep in mind the USSR and Germany had an alliance until 1940. If they maintained the alliance and the soviets supported them with troops and fuel we never would have recaptured Europe

That was my point..........

To be honest I have never really pondered that possibility @ any length nor what the ramifications might be.....

Russia & Germany would likely mean no Japan in on that deal.........

But the ME/North Africa/Persia & all that oil & other resources would be @ their fingertips......

The various partisan movements would face many more formidable challenges......

That said, given the formidable potential of the US industrial machine I believe it could be won, but @ such a cost as to make the public much less willing to participate......

 

[Unkotare]

What did the Soviets "WIN"? Stalin killed more people than Hitler. His OWN people....And Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis so the Soviets could rape Poland. Russia was a victim, but it wasn't the Nazis that were the enemy.

Based on their treatment at the hands of the Nazis, I'm pretty sure they were viewed as the enemy

Based on the treatment Germans received when Russia rolled into Germany toward the end of the war, they certainly were.

 

[rightwinger]

What did the Soviets "WIN"? Stalin killed more people than Hitler. His OWN people....And Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis so the Soviets could rape Poland. Russia was a victim, but it wasn't the Nazis that were the enemy.

Based on their treatment at the hands of the Nazis, I'm pretty sure they were viewed as the enemy

Based on the treatment Germans received when Russia rolled into Germany toward the end of the war, they certainly were.

Payback was indeed a bitch

But nowhere near the magnitude of what the Germans did to Poles, Ukranians and Russians

 

[Zebra]

The Russians won because it was a "just war"? Is that what passes for history these days? The Russian winter beat the German invasion and the dying US president who called Stalin "uncle joe" let the Russians take Berlin and establish the post-war "Iron Curtain".

so it is!

 

[Zebra]

Keep in mind the USSR and Germany had an alliance until 1940. If they maintained the alliance and the soviets supported them with troops and fuel we never would have recaptured Europe

true

 

[Zebra]

Well, that's true, but another thing to recognize is that Hitler considered the Soviet Union the main enemy, and Russia was the goal of his whole program, so any accommodation he made with Stalin was going to be a temporary arrangement of convenience. It's interesting, considering how appalling his program and goals were, that he set it all out and published it, but he did. It went like this:

Step 1: Take over the German government and unify the ethnic Germans in central Europe under one government.

Step 2: Knock France out of the war before doing anything else, so as to allow a one-front war against Russia.

Step 3: If at war with Britain at this point, make peace.

Step 4: Conquer Russia as far west as the Ural Mountains. Stop and go on the defensive against any organized forces that remained.

Step 5: Systematically work and starve to death every inhabitant of eastern Europe from the eastern German border to the Ural Mountains, replacing them with German colonists.

Step 6: Breed a huge generation of Germans, which would then dominate the world.

He managed the first two steps and then ran into trouble with the third and fourth, which between them lost him the war.

So in Hitler's thinking, war with Russia was the whole point; everything else was a means to that end. To give up on that so as to protect his western front wasn't something he was going to do.

terrible!

 

[gtopa1]

Because it was a "just" war.

Germany attacked the Soviet Union.

Bad as the SU was - Nazi Germany was worse.

Most puntis predicted Russia would fall within months.

Germany violated theRippontrop-Molotov peace treaty -so there fore Rusia had the high moral ground.

The answer is "Lend Lease".

Greg

 

[Ringo]

Polls in France. Who made a decisive contribution to the victory over German fascism.

With Goebbels’s propaganda, in an insignificant period, by historical standards, one can radically change the consciousness of the people and erase the Truth. Capitalism has thrown enormous resources at this.

 

[AZrailwhale]

One hell of a lot of material help from the rest of the world. Huge numbers of aircraft and tanks and food supplies left US Ports and airfields for Russia. And they don't believe in "thank you."

Not just the US. The UK was sending the USSR supplies when it couldn’t afford it. Churchill was desperate to force Germany into a two front war to take the pressure off the UK. Most of the tanks in the battle of Moscow were British.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The only thing that saved the USSR was the Winter of 1941. Any Global Warming type of mild Winter and Moscow falls by Christmas and that would have been the end of it for Stalin & Company.

The T-34 tank was arguably the best overall tank of the war; diesel powered, easy to fix, could match up readily against anything except the Tiger and once loaded with the 85mm gun in Oct 43, even Tigers were fair game.

After the defeat at Stalingrad, Rommel recommended that the German Army focus on producing more AT guns instead of tanks and fighters instead of bombers and try to win a war of attrition in the East

Had Patton not been demoted after slapping the solder and him and Bradley not switched roles, the German Army in the West would have been crushed in the Falaise Pocket and the US Allies would have been in Berlin 6 months ahead of the Russians.

The T-34 was the most advanced tank design in 1941. As built, it was a piece of junk. You name the system and it was inferior to either the German or WAllied system. Even the very advanced aluminum engine was poorly built and had a very short service life.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I go by results

WW2 -=-slam dunk win


Korea - tie

Nam - loss

Iraq andaftert - quargmires argsinst nobodies ............

Everything after WWII were given away by politicians.

 

[Mushroom]

The Russian winter beat the German invasion

Actually, it was not the winter at all but the autumn. And it is the same thing that caused France to fail.

The Russian term is "Rasputitsa", or the "Season of Mud". Even before the winter set in the German supply line was hopelessly broken because the heavy rainfall turned all the roads to mud and they were unable to bring forward any equipment or supplies. Like the cold weather gear they needed come winter. But the invasion was a failed one long before winter even sent in, as by late fall the German forces were short on supplies and were running low on munitions, fuel, and everything else they needed.

Winter put the final nail in the coffin, but that is not what beat them. And if they had survived the winter, things would not have gotten any better because that would have been followed by the spring Raputitsa. Which is by far the worst of the two annual "seasons of mud" that the region experiences.

 

[Mushroom]

Russia & Germany would likely mean no Japan in on that deal

Uh, wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

The Axis Alliance was formed in 1936 between Germany and Italy. Then expanded in September 1940 with the Tripartite Pact with those two and Japan.

And while Germany did play the Soviets for time, there was absolutely no way they would have joined the alliance as Italy would never have accepted that. Then you have Operation Barbarossa in June 1941.

What you said may sound nice, if you completely ignore things like the historical timeline, and the nations involved.