Will we let Ukraine die?

[defcon4]

Most Americans do not even know who was the first president in the USA, or why we celebrate 4th of July. That's why I wondered of whom they polled.

Thanks for the answer.
Well, maybe they polled students of universities who learn international law or something like that? )

---
Defcon smells like a Russian troll, with opinions reflected in the Pew poll of ignorant propagandized Russians with limited free press.

That's a new one: telling the truth translates to being a Russian troll. Hilarious! Propagandized? Ouch!!! Look at the direction we are heading in the country

 

[ESay]

I doubt it. They may have polled registered voters from both political parties (those are the ones having political clout. Unfortunately that's the cancer and fallacy of the two party system) Republicans represent world police and Democrats represent the do-gooders.

Can I ask you a question? What is your own opinion about all that Ukrainian stuff?

 

[PK1]

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Suplex does not represent "America".
According to a recent Pew poll, published last month, 62% of US public support economic aid to Ukraine, while 46% support military aid to Ukraine.

Key findings from our poll on the Russia-Ukraine conflict Pew Research Center

I wonder what segment of the population they have polled.

---
If you read their methodology page on the USA sampling, you will see:
"surveys at the Pew Research Center entail samples designed to represent the entire adult population of the U.S."

Do you understand statistical methods?

 

[defcon4]

I doubt it. They may have polled registered voters from both political parties (those are the ones having political clout. Unfortunately that's the cancer and fallacy of the two party system) Republicans represent world police and Democrats represent the do-gooders.

Can I ask you a question? What is your own opinion about all that Ukrainian stuff?

I think the answer is in the past. How Russia and the Ukraine interacted throughout history before the coerced formation of the Soviet Union. I do not think Putin wants a Russian empire with world dominance per se. Putin wants a strong Russia nobody should mess with. Russia and the Ukraine should form an economic alliance then the territorial disputes would take care of themselves. Either way, it is not the USA's cup of tea and should stay out of it altogether.

 

[defcon4]

---
Suplex does not represent "America".
According to a recent Pew poll, published last month, 62% of US public support economic aid to Ukraine, while 46% support military aid to Ukraine.

Key findings from our poll on the Russia-Ukraine conflict Pew Research Center

I wonder what segment of the population they have polled.

---
If you read their methodology page on the USA sampling, you will see:
"surveys at the Pew Research Center entail samples designed to represent the entire adult population of the U.S."

Do you understand statistical methods?

They have never asked me. Am I excluded from the "entire adult pollution of the US?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Will we let Ukraine die - The Washington Post
It seems like Ukrainians have no chance to win the war as we are not going to help them. Is Ukraine even worth the efforts? We definitely gave them enough money to help their army yet they keep losing. Perhaps it would be better to forget about Ukraine and let the Russians ravage it? It's not like it has any use anyway since it's the poorest country in the entire Europe.

Unless you're volunteering to go fight Russians, sit down, shut up.

 

[PK1]

---
Suplex does not represent "America".
According to a recent Pew poll, published last month, 62% of US public support economic aid to Ukraine, while 46% support military aid to Ukraine.

Key findings from our poll on the Russia-Ukraine conflict Pew Research Center

I wonder what segment of the population they have polled.

---
If you read their methodology page on the USA sampling, you will see:
"surveys at the Pew Research Center entail samples designed to represent the entire adult population of the U.S."

Do you understand statistical methods?

They have never asked me. Am I excluded from the "entire adult pollution of the US?

---
If you understand statistical sampling, not everyone is polled; that's not practical. It's efficient and statistically significant to use a valid sample representative of the population being surveyed.
Apparently, your opinion, if you are from USA, would be in the minority, and in the majority if from Russia.

 

[Camp]

Signs are coming out that the Ukraine-Russia crisis is ending. Maybe a bit to soon to tell, but it appears that plans for New Russia being created in Ukraine have been abandoned, separatist are getting message that Russia is backing off, people are moving back into war zones, a sure sign that locals see an end. Maybe things will flare up again, but there seems to be some hope for settlement of some sort not involving killing each other.

 

[defcon4]

---
Suplex does not represent "America".
According to a recent Pew poll, published last month, 62% of US public support economic aid to Ukraine, while 46% support military aid to Ukraine.

Key findings from our poll on the Russia-Ukraine conflict Pew Research Center

I wonder what segment of the population they have polled.

---
If you read their methodology page on the USA sampling, you will see:
"surveys at the Pew Research Center entail samples designed to represent the entire adult population of the U.S."

Do you understand statistical methods?

They have never asked me. Am I excluded from the "entire adult pollution of the US?

---
If you understand statistical sampling, not everyone is polled; that's not practical. It's efficient and statistically significant to use a valid sample representative of the population being surveyed.
Apparently, your opinion, if you are from USA, would be in the minority, and in the majority if from Russia.

I may be in the minority because I know exactly where the Ukraine is geographically. Those who don't form the majority.

 

[ESay]

I think the answer is in the past. How Russia and the Ukraine interacted throughout history before the coerced formation of the Soviet Union. I do not think Putin wants a Russian empire with world dominance per se. Putin wants a strong Russia nobody should mess with. Russia and the Ukraine should form an economic alliance then the territorial disputes would take care of themselves. Either way, it is not the USA's cup of tea and should stay out of it altogether.

Those lands which make up contemporary Ukraine belonged to various countries in the past. In the middle ages there began to form so-called Getmanshchina – a state which consisted mostly of the central part of contemporary Ukraine. In the middle 1600-s there were a war between Getmanshchina and Poland, and the former had to apply to Moscow for the help. Moscow did provide the help but demanded in return that Grtmanshchina be part of the Moscow Tsardom with a right of broad autonomy. But time passed by and the rights of the autonomy were being ceased more and more. At least, Catherine the Great abolished the autonomy altogether.

In next centuries such names as Ukraine and Ukrainians were forbidden in Russian Empire. Instead of them there were used names Malayia Rossia (Little Russia) and Maloross (Little Russian).

It was a brief answer how they interacted. Though, I am not a historian, so any remarks are welcomed. But remarks not from Russian trolls, but from those who is really interested in history.


About economical integration.

The Russians are always arguing that the Ukrainians are lazy, greedy, hypocrites, live (and have always lived) at the expense of Russia, and the like. So let’s give Russia a favour and pull Ukraine away from it. )


Well, thanks for your answers anyway.

 

[defcon4]

I think the answer is in the past. How Russia and the Ukraine interacted throughout history before the coerced formation of the Soviet Union. I do not think Putin wants a Russian empire with world dominance per se. Putin wants a strong Russia nobody should mess with. Russia and the Ukraine should form an economic alliance then the territorial disputes would take care of themselves. Either way, it is not the USA's cup of tea and should stay out of it altogether.

Those lands which make up contemporary Ukraine belonged to various countries in the past. In the middle ages there began to form so-called Getmanshchina – a state which consisted mostly of the central part of contemporary Ukraine. In the middle 1600-s there were a war between Getmanshchina and Poland, and the former had to apply to Moscow for the help. Moscow did provide the help but demanded in return that Grtmanshchina be part of the Moscow Tsardom with a right of broad autonomy. But time passed by and the rights of the autonomy were being ceased more and more. At least, Catherine the Great abolished the autonomy altogether.

In next centuries such names as Ukraine and Ukrainians were forbidden in Russian Empire. Instead of them there were used names Malayia Rossia (Little Russia) and Maloross (Little Russian).

It was a brief answer how they interacted. Though, I am not a historian, so any remarks are welcomed. But remarks not from Russian trolls, but from those who is really interested in history.


About economical integration.

The Russians are always arguing that the Ukrainians are lazy, greedy, hypocrites, live (and have always lived) at the expense of Russia, and the like. So let’s give Russia a favour and pull Ukraine away from it. )


Well, thanks for your answers anyway.

I have a blurred or rather foggy picture about who the muziks were. Were they Russian farmers or Ukrainian farmers? I now they were depicted by early photography as they were sitting around while women were tilling the land. So, who is lazy, that's what I am trying to find out.

 

[ESay]

I have a blurred or rather foggy picture about who the muziks were. Were they Russian farmers or Ukrainian farmers? I now they were depicted by early photography as they were sitting around while women were tilling the land. So, who is lazy, that's what I am trying to find out.

Both Russian and Ukrainian ones. Muzhik was a representative of the lowest class who did the most dirty work. Muzhiks were serfs or former serfs.
If you think that myzhiki were always lying under the trees while their wives worked hard, then I think it is rather wrong opinion. There are many pictures which depict muzhik’s life.
I don’t know who are more or less lazy. At that time almost everyone from the lowest class had to work hard to make ends meet. Though, the present time is not an exception.

 

[PK1]

Defcon4:
"I may be in the minority because I know exactly where the Ukraine is geographically. ..."

---
There's nothing wrong with being a minority member, although I wish more people were educated & experienced in world affairs.
I consider myself a "minority" in your geo knowledge sense too. I've travelled to both Russia & Ukraine multiple times, as well as 40 other countries. International travel gives one an important relative perspective on cultural relations and conflicts, as well as an enhanced personal perspective on "value", in my opinion.

 

[skye]

It's amazing to me the fact that some still don't get it.

Ukraine belongs to Russia! always has, always will...and no matter how many artificial crises the US and NATO create in that region it won't change that fact!

The sooner they recognize it the better for everyone!

 

[PK1]

I think the answer is in the past. How Russia and the Ukraine interacted throughout history before the coerced formation of the Soviet Union. I do not think Putin wants a Russian empire with world dominance per se. Putin wants a strong Russia nobody should mess with. Russia and the Ukraine should form an economic alliance then the territorial disputes would take care of themselves. Either way, it is not the USA's cup of tea and should stay out of it altogether.

Those lands which make up contemporary Ukraine belonged to various countries in the past. In the middle ages there began to form so-called Getmanshchina – a state which consisted mostly of the central part of contemporary Ukraine. In the middle 1600-s there were a war between Getmanshchina and Poland, and the former had to apply to Moscow for the help. Moscow did provide the help but demanded in return that Grtmanshchina be part of the Moscow Tsardom with a right of broad autonomy. But time passed by and the rights of the autonomy were being ceased more and more. At least, Catherine the Great abolished the autonomy altogether.

In next centuries such names as Ukraine and Ukrainians were forbidden in Russian Empire. Instead of them there were used names Malayia Rossia (Little Russia) and Maloross (Little Russian).

It was a brief answer how they interacted. Though, I am not a historian, so any remarks are welcomed. But remarks not from Russian trolls, but from those who is really interested in history.


About economical integration.

The Russians are always arguing that the Ukrainians are lazy, greedy, hypocrites, live (and have always lived) at the expense of Russia, and the like. So let’s give Russia a favour and pull Ukraine away from it. )


Well, thanks for your answers anyway.

---
This Wikipedia reference gives an overview of Ukrainian history and relations between its peoples and Russians, Poles, and others:

History of Ukraine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I think one way of distinguishing a group of people & their culture is LANGUAGE.
Ukrainians have their own language, which is more similar to Polish than Russian, vocabulary-wise.
However, due to forced Russification over the past 2 centuries, ethnic Ukrainians in the east also speak Russian, and many of the younger ones (schooled < 1990) prefer to write in Russian, although they may speak basic Ukrainian at home.

 

[PK1]

It's amazing to me the fact that some still don't get it.

Ukraine belongs to Russia! always has, always will...and no matter how many artificial crises the US and NATO create in that region it won't change that fact!

The sooner they recognize it the better for everyone!

---
Trolling your crap again?
Wake up! Ukraine is an independent nation, and has been a member of the United Nations since the 1940's.

 

[ESay]

It's amazing to me the fact that some still don't get it.

Ukraine belongs to Russia! always has, always will...and no matter how many artificial crises the US and NATO create in that region it won't change that fact!

The sooner they recognize it the better for everyone!

No, thanks. If you, lady, don’t know properly about something, than put an ‘IMHO’ in your statements.

which is more similar to Polish than Russian, vocabulary-wise.

Well, I have heard this several times already, but, to tell the truth, I have some doubts about it. When I hear Polish I don’t understand almost anything; but Ukrainian-speakers almost always understand Russian-speakers and vice versa. Actually, the question about language is more complicated.

and has been a member of the United Nations since the 1940's.

Yeas, it is true. Ukraine (the Ukrainian SSR at that time) joined the UN in October of 1945. It is one of so called original members.
But who cares now about that?

 

[PK1]

which is more similar to Polish than Russian, vocabulary-wise.

Well, I have heard this several times already, but, to tell the truth, I have some doubts about it. When I hear Polish I don’t understand almost anything; but Ukrainian-speakers almost always understand Russian-speakers and vice versa. Actually, the question about language is more complicated.

---
I agree that the language question is complicated, but it reflects the evolution of the various ethnic groups & subgroups (cultural anthropology).

There is a literary perspective as well as spoken. Although I have some fluency in Russian and German, and can understand some spoken Ukrainian, I too cannot understand any Polish, but I think western Ukrainians may have some understanding of Polish words.
According to a lexicon analysis mentioned in Wikipedia (see Ukrainian Language):
"the closest language to Ukrainian is Belarusian (84% of common vocabulary), followed by Polish (70%), Serbo-Croatian (68%), Slovak (66%) and Russian (62%)."
However:
"The Ukrainian language retains a degree of mutual intelligibility with Belarusian and Russian."

 

[ESay]

I agree that the language question is complicated, but it reflects the evolution of the various ethnic groups & subgroups (cultural anthropology).

There is a literary perspective as well as spoken. Although I have some fluency in Russian and German, and can understand some spoken Ukrainian, I too cannot understand any Polish, but I think western Ukrainians may have some understanding of Polish words.
According to a lexicon analysis mentioned in Wikipedia (see Ukrainian Language):
"the closest language to Ukrainian is Belarusian (84% of common vocabulary), followed by Polish (70%), Serbo-Croatian (68%), Slovak (66%) and Russian (62%)."
However:
"The Ukrainian language retains a degree of mutual intelligibility with Belarusian and Russian."

Well, I am not a linguist, so I won’t argue about it. I have a vague notion of what a lexicon analysis is and how it was carried out.

Actually, I don’t understand why it matters in the current situation. If someone wants to think that there had been no Ukrainians, no Ukraine and no Ukrainian language until 1991 year, then it is their choice and I don’t see any problem about that. The world is constantly changing – some countries come to exist, some disappear.

If we take a look at the current situation, then we will have to admit that there is such a country as Ukraine, most of its population considers themselves as Ukrainians, and so on. In the December of 1991 more than 90% of the population of the Ukrainian SSR voted in favour of independence from the USSR; since then Ukraine has been recognised by all countries in the world (well, at least I don’t know any country which hasn’t recognised it), including the US and Russia, in the borders which were in 1991; the vast majority of population considers themselves as Ukrainians and so on and so forth. I understand that this fact isn’t pleasant for some people, but it is their problem. They can apply to the UN or international courts about it.

 

[PK1]

I agree that the language question is complicated, but it reflects the evolution of the various ethnic groups & subgroups (cultural anthropology).

There is a literary perspective as well as spoken. Although I have some fluency in Russian and German, and can understand some spoken Ukrainian, I too cannot understand any Polish, but I think western Ukrainians may have some understanding of Polish words.
According to a lexicon analysis mentioned in Wikipedia (see Ukrainian Language):
"the closest language to Ukrainian is Belarusian (84% of common vocabulary), followed by Polish (70%), Serbo-Croatian (68%), Slovak (66%) and Russian (62%)."
However:
"The Ukrainian language retains a degree of mutual intelligibility with Belarusian and Russian."

Well, I am not a linguist, so I won’t argue about it. I have a vague notion of what a lexicon analysis is and how it was carried out.

Actually, I don’t understand why it matters in the current situation. If someone wants to think that there had been no Ukrainians, no Ukraine and no Ukrainian language until 1991 year, then it is their choice and I don’t see any problem about that. The world is constantly changing – some countries come to exist, some disappear.

If we take a look at the current situation, then we will have to admit that there is such a country as Ukraine, most of its population considers themselves as Ukrainians, and so on. In the December of 1991 more than 90% of the population of the Ukrainian SSR voted in favour of independence from the USSR; since then Ukraine has been recognised by all countries in the world (well, at least I don’t know any country which hasn’t recognised it), including the US and Russia, in the borders which were in 1991; the vast majority of population considers themselves as Ukrainians and so on and so forth. I understand that this fact isn’t pleasant for some people, but it is their problem. They can apply to the UN or international courts about it.

---
Of course, I agree with your rational humanistic perspective. Unfortunately, the Russian-Ukraine-West conflict is political, where. "power" & "distrust" are major stumbling blocks.

It seems to me the current Kremlin leader & his cronies are paranoid about the West surrounding them geographically, and Ukraine is a major card in the poker game.
Putin was pissed that Poland & Baltic states were accepted into the EU & NATO, and nationalistic Russians feel betrayed and fearful, not trusting the West anymore.

For a while, in the 1990's and early 2000's, Russia-NATO relations were actually cooperative, although Russia struggled economically. When Russia's economy prospered in the 2000's, and former USSR countries joined the West, Putin & Russians who support him (86% now, after Ukraine conflict) regained their nationalistic "world power" attitude to stroke their egos.

Will the current relations continue for several more years?
It will come down to economics.