Would republican voters support lowering the minimum wage if the GOP pushed such a thing?

[blackhawk]

I wouldn’t support lowering it any more than I support raising it to 15 dollars an hour.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

After all, the government had no place in raising the wage to begin with! Cost of living and inflation be damned! Corporate profits are all that matters! The GOP really looks out for us all huh? That turtle faced piece of shit McDonnell is a true Christian after all.

Them doing this really wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility. After all, the GOP was outraged after Obama expanded over time pay entitlement to thousands of workers. They of course had to undo that!

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

I'd support eliminating it entirely. The Government can't properly allocate resources or measure supply and demand curves, and nobody who works in Government is at all qualified to run a business, otherwise they would be running businesses instead of stealing our money and sending Road Pirates after us.

EDIT: Roughly 2.7% of people who work for an hourly wage are paid minimum wage, for the record.

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

 

[Wyatt earp]

After all, the government had no place in raising the wage to begin with! Cost of living and inflation be damned! Corporate profits are all that matters! The GOP really looks out for us all huh? That turtle faced piece of shit McDonnell is a true Christian after all.

Them doing this really wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility. After all, the GOP was outraged after Obama expanded over time pay entitlement to thousands of workers. They of course had to undo that!

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

I'd support eliminating it entirely. The Government can't properly allocate resources or measure supply and demand curves, and nobody who works in Government is at all qualified to run a business, otherwise they would be running businesses instead of stealing our money and sending Road Pirates after us.

EDIT: Roughly 2.7% of people who work for an hourly wage are paid minimum wage, for the record.

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

That's not greed it's economics on the part of the companies, they can't go in debt paying what ever wage you demand of them.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

After all, the government had no place in raising the wage to begin with! Cost of living and inflation be damned! Corporate profits are all that matters! The GOP really looks out for us all huh? That turtle faced piece of shit McDonnell is a true Christian after all.

Them doing this really wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility. After all, the GOP was outraged after Obama expanded over time pay entitlement to thousands of workers. They of course had to undo that!

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

I'd support eliminating it entirely. The Government can't properly allocate resources or measure supply and demand curves, and nobody who works in Government is at all qualified to run a business, otherwise they would be running businesses instead of stealing our money and sending Road Pirates after us.

EDIT: Roughly 2.7% of people who work for an hourly wage are paid minimum wage, for the record.

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

After all, the government had no place in raising the wage to begin with! Cost of living and inflation be damned! Corporate profits are all that matters! The GOP really looks out for us all huh? That turtle faced piece of shit McDonnell is a true Christian after all.

Them doing this really wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility. After all, the GOP was outraged after Obama expanded over time pay entitlement to thousands of workers. They of course had to undo that!

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

Let the market decide.

"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
Ronald Reagan

 

[Daryl Hunt]

After all, the government had no place in raising the wage to begin with! Cost of living and inflation be damned! Corporate profits are all that matters! The GOP really looks out for us all huh? That turtle faced piece of shit McDonnell is a true Christian after all.

Them doing this really wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility. After all, the GOP was outraged after Obama expanded over time pay entitlement to thousands of workers. They of course had to undo that!

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

I'd support eliminating it entirely. The Government can't properly allocate resources or measure supply and demand curves, and nobody who works in Government is at all qualified to run a business, otherwise they would be running businesses instead of stealing our money and sending Road Pirates after us.

EDIT: Roughly 2.7% of people who work for an hourly wage are paid minimum wage, for the record.

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I'd support eliminating it entirely. The Government can't properly allocate resources or measure supply and demand curves, and nobody who works in Government is at all qualified to run a business, otherwise they would be running businesses instead of stealing our money and sending Road Pirates after us.

EDIT: Roughly 2.7% of people who work for an hourly wage are paid minimum wage, for the record.

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

Exactly, you get it, no matter where you raise the minimum wage it is still zero Australia and New Zealand found that out with there high minimum wage ...
it's not rocket science.


.

 

[initforme]

Don't raise it don't lower it. 7 bucks an hour is a good wage for employers that don't expect a person to put in a good effort for it. When people aren't spying for those jobs it's a great sign.

 

[dblack]

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

Not a Republican, but I'd support getting rid of minimum wage altogether.

If you do that then we need to get rid of the Right to Work laws. The Unions came into being just for that reason.

This is 1950s thinking. We don't need minimum wage nor do we need some teamster patting himself on his back for getting the worker an extra nickel an hour while he makes millions.

1. You say we don't need unions. Okay, let's go with that.

2. You say we don't need Min Wage. Okay, let's go with that

3. Now, what are you going to do with the fact that the Cost of Living, every year in the last 40 years, has outstripped the increase in wages. Todays dollar and todays wages, Today's Worker makes less than the Worker 40 years ago. What are you going to do about the Greed Factor.

Nothing.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Don't raise it don't lower it. 7 bucks an hour is a good wage for employers that don't expect a person to put in a good effort for it. When people aren't spying for those jobs it's a great sign.

Except no one pays them $7 bucks an hour an example is the local McDonald's in South Carolina is hiring at $10 an hour.

 

[fncceo]

what are you going to do with the fact that the Cost of Living, every year in the last 40 years, has outstripped the increase in wages.

Earn more or live more frugally.

Perhaps only upgrade your phone every other year or buy off brand running shoes if you never run.

And i you don't have any other choices left to you? Are you going to like to your kids that other kids are lying to them that they eat more than 1 meal a day?

Was that meant to be intelligible?

 

[Wyatt earp]

Don't raise it don't lower it. 7 bucks an hour is a good wage for employers that don't expect a person to put in a good effort for it. When people aren't spying for those jobs it's a great sign.

Except no one pays them $7 bucks an hour an example is the local McDonald's in South Carolina is hiring at $10 an hour.

Crew Team Member/ Lobby Cleaners
McDonald's Warren H.Abernathy Hwy.

44,035 reviews
Spartanburg, SC

• Job
• Insights

• Job Type:Full-time, Part-time
• Salary:$8.90 - $12.10 an hour

 

[fncceo]

The Cost of Living exceeds the take home pay.

Then lower your cost of living. It's simple math.

 

[night_son]

After all, the government had no place in raising the wage to begin with! Cost of living and inflation be damned! Corporate profits are all that matters! The GOP really looks out for us all huh? That turtle faced piece of shit McDonnell is a true Christian after all.

Them doing this really wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility. After all, the GOP was outraged after Obama expanded over time pay entitlement to thousands of workers. They of course had to undo that!

Point blank: republicans would you support lowering the minimum wage because of your weird outrage over it being raised over time in the first place?

The issue really is progressives are trying to equate a "living" wage, with the minimum wage, and the two are entirely different concepts.

The former started out as a baseline for the most menial jobs, jobs never meant as careers. The latter is an attempt to make those same jobs pay enough so someone can work at them for decades and afford the basics in life.

The 2nd is the one that is entirely unfeasible, because it usually raises the cost of a person's labor to above the value added to the final product/service of that labor.

Let's look at it another way.

There has been job loss. Due to some jobs going overseas and some jobs lost to automation. Mostly, it's been automation. In many areas that had skilled factory work that has been taken over by automation, those burger flipping jobs may be all that's available. You have bread winners working at menial jobs because that's all that there is. You can blame shipping jobs overseas, illegals, etc. but the bulk of the job losses have been lost to automation. Even the burger flippers are fast losing their jobs to automation now.

Without paid job training, what then? 50 years ago, the corporations paid for that and got a damned fine employee out of it. Today, they think that's lost revenue and would never pay that. So when the job is lost the employee is cut lose. In 10 years, even the menial tasks won't be available at such a demanding rate. Do we just send them home to starve and die? Then we wonder why the crime rate goes up because they will find a way to make a living for them and their families.

You really ought to read and possibly memorize The Grapes of Wrath. Look, I and many other Americans realize (because we've lived it) that the concept of absolute personal responsibility is terrifying. Truth is (American Truth) no one is forcing anyone to live in a place devoid of good paying jobs with plenty of advancement opportunity. If one chooses to work a low paying, hazardous or dead-end job instead of moving out of a dying industrial (for example) area, then that's on them. If one loses their highly skilled, high pay job due to whatever reason and then decides to become a janitor or fast food worker, then they must take responsibility for embracing that choice and accordingly accept the consequences. No one in America has to be a victim, unless being a victim is exactly what they're aiming for.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

I'd support eliminating it entirely. The Government can't properly allocate resources or measure supply and demand curves, and nobody who works in Government is at all qualified to run a business, otherwise they would be running businesses instead of stealing our money and sending Road Pirates after us.

EDIT: Roughly 2.7% of people who work for an hourly wage are paid minimum wage, for the record.

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

And the results are higher cost of living, and an adverse effect on the people that they're trying, supposedly, to help. This is because people won't work for too low of a price, and a business has to make money in order for the process to be worth the effort. What the effect of increasing the minimum wage shows is that businesses know what the labor and products are worth, and the Government does not.

I can't say that a bank teller should be worth any specific amount. What I can say is that she wouldn't be working the job if the money wasn't worth it to her. Alternatively, if we exchanged in a currency that had actual worth, everyone would be making a "living wage" regardless of whether a business was paying someone any specific amount or not.

See, the difficulty in living has nothing to do with your wages. One of the things politicians are intentionally taking advantage of is that a lot of people don't understand that wages does not equal purchasing power. Your purchasing power is not going far due to regulations and currency problems. Regulations, each and every one, necessarily make it more difficult for a business to enter the market, produce a product, or distribute that product, resulting in smaller businesses struggling while larger businesses acclimate to the new difficulty, which in turn results in fewer businesses in any one area, and less competitive markets. What do you think would happen if one business was paying employees 1$ an hour, one was paying employees 7$ an hour, and a third was paying 10$ an hour? People would work for the third, overflow would go to the second, and nobody would work for the first. Businesses would naturally be unable to get by only offering a 1$ wage, because nobody would work for that amount. This factor also applies to the amount items are sold for.

To be clear, my argument is not that things are fine, but that more Government isn't the answer, since Government is the problem in the first place.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Your record is broken, liar. Look at Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and you will see it's 58.4%. That 2.7% is the decrease in the number from 2016 to 2017 not the total. It's been running right about a +61% for a few years. And don't give me this crap that it was Trump that made it drop. Any change that affected 2017 was done in 2016. The Reports for 2018 are not tabulated yet. Want to bet they won't be too well off?

You can stop lying any time now.

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

And the results are higher cost of living, and an adverse effect on the people that they're trying, supposedly, to help. This is because people won't work for too low of a price, and a business has to make money in order for the process to be worth the effort. What the effect of increasing the minimum wage shows is that businesses know what the labor and products are worth, and the Government does not.

I can't say that a bank teller should be worth any specific amount. What I can say is that she wouldn't be working the job if the money wasn't worth it to her. Alternatively, if we exchanged in a currency that had actual worth, everyone would be making a "living wage" regardless of whether a business was paying someone any specific amount or not.

See, the difficulty in living has nothing to do with your wages. One of the things politicians are intentionally taking advantage of is that a lot of people don't understand that wages does not equal purchasing power. Your purchasing power is not going far due to regulations and currency problems. Regulations, each and every one, necessarily make it more difficult for a business to enter the market, produce a product, or distribute that product, resulting in smaller businesses struggling while larger businesses acclimate to the new difficulty, which in turn results in fewer businesses in any one area, and less competitive markets. What do you think would happen if one business was paying employees 1$ an hour, one was paying employees 7$ an hour, and a third was paying 10$ an hour? People would work for the third, overflow would go to the second, and nobody would work for the first. Businesses would naturally be unable to get by only offering a 1$ wage, because nobody would work for that amount. This factor also applies to the amount items are sold for.

To be clear, my argument is not that things are fine, but that more Government isn't the answer, since Government is the problem in the first place.

Actually, I wonder if the Greed Factor can't be placed under the Ricco Act. It amounts to exactly the same thing.

 

[fncceo]

Actually, I wonder if the Greed Factor can't be placed under the Ricco Act. It amounts to exactly the same thing.

I think you mean RICO Act. RICO applies to criminal conspiracy. Greed isn't criminal and isn't conspiratorial.

In fact ...

 

[dblack]

Did you not bother reading the article you cited, there, champ?

It says that the 58.3% is people working for hourly wages, and that the 2.3% is the total amount working for minimum wage. The article you cited agrees with this. Why don't you read your citation before accusing people of being liars? The second paragraph states that it's decreasing.

"
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
"

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

And the results are higher cost of living, and an adverse effect on the people that they're trying, supposedly, to help. This is because people won't work for too low of a price, and a business has to make money in order for the process to be worth the effort. What the effect of increasing the minimum wage shows is that businesses know what the labor and products are worth, and the Government does not.

I can't say that a bank teller should be worth any specific amount. What I can say is that she wouldn't be working the job if the money wasn't worth it to her. Alternatively, if we exchanged in a currency that had actual worth, everyone would be making a "living wage" regardless of whether a business was paying someone any specific amount or not.

See, the difficulty in living has nothing to do with your wages. One of the things politicians are intentionally taking advantage of is that a lot of people don't understand that wages does not equal purchasing power. Your purchasing power is not going far due to regulations and currency problems. Regulations, each and every one, necessarily make it more difficult for a business to enter the market, produce a product, or distribute that product, resulting in smaller businesses struggling while larger businesses acclimate to the new difficulty, which in turn results in fewer businesses in any one area, and less competitive markets. What do you think would happen if one business was paying employees 1$ an hour, one was paying employees 7$ an hour, and a third was paying 10$ an hour? People would work for the third, overflow would go to the second, and nobody would work for the first. Businesses would naturally be unable to get by only offering a 1$ wage, because nobody would work for that amount. This factor also applies to the amount items are sold for.

To be clear, my argument is not that things are fine, but that more Government isn't the answer, since Government is the problem in the first place.

Actually, I wonder if the Greed Factor can't be placed under the Ricco Act. It amounts to exactly the same thing.

What exactly is "the Greed Factor"?

 

[fncceo]

I'll give an oops on that one. So what is your beef with Min Wage if it's so low? I see a report that is incomplete, myself. Around here, Min Wage is 11 bucks an hour and many make between 11 and 15 bucks an hour. You need to make 20 an hour to make a livable wage. If they increased the bottom average pay to 20 bucks an hour, the fat cats would just raise the cost of living where it would require 22 to 23 bucks an hour in order to break even. And even the Oil Field Workers would suffer because they wouldn't raise their 22 and 23 buck an hour wages to compensate. Greed, pure and simple. Capitalism at it's ugliest.

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

And the results are higher cost of living, and an adverse effect on the people that they're trying, supposedly, to help. This is because people won't work for too low of a price, and a business has to make money in order for the process to be worth the effort. What the effect of increasing the minimum wage shows is that businesses know what the labor and products are worth, and the Government does not.

I can't say that a bank teller should be worth any specific amount. What I can say is that she wouldn't be working the job if the money wasn't worth it to her. Alternatively, if we exchanged in a currency that had actual worth, everyone would be making a "living wage" regardless of whether a business was paying someone any specific amount or not.

See, the difficulty in living has nothing to do with your wages. One of the things politicians are intentionally taking advantage of is that a lot of people don't understand that wages does not equal purchasing power. Your purchasing power is not going far due to regulations and currency problems. Regulations, each and every one, necessarily make it more difficult for a business to enter the market, produce a product, or distribute that product, resulting in smaller businesses struggling while larger businesses acclimate to the new difficulty, which in turn results in fewer businesses in any one area, and less competitive markets. What do you think would happen if one business was paying employees 1$ an hour, one was paying employees 7$ an hour, and a third was paying 10$ an hour? People would work for the third, overflow would go to the second, and nobody would work for the first. Businesses would naturally be unable to get by only offering a 1$ wage, because nobody would work for that amount. This factor also applies to the amount items are sold for.

To be clear, my argument is not that things are fine, but that more Government isn't the answer, since Government is the problem in the first place.

Actually, I wonder if the Greed Factor can't be placed under the Ricco Act. It amounts to exactly the same thing.

What exactly is "the Greed Factor"?

Greed is the desire for more and more ... like a politician is greedy for taxpayer dollars.

 

[dblack]

Well, first, I appreciate you calming down and having a rational discussion, as well as admitting you made a mistake, that's incredibly rare around here.

I actually have multiple problems with a minimum wage, but I'll start with the economic factors. The Government has no method of measuring supply and demand curves, nor do they have any skills which would allow any individual in Government to determine how businesses should be run, so not only are those in Government unqualified to determine this, but the Government itself, as an organization is completely incapable. As you noted in your post, increasing minimum wage doesn't actually help anyone, it just increases the cost of living, however that's not all there is to it. There are some jobs and some workers who are not worth the minimum wage, which actually causes a business to overpay some employees, and this causes them to be unable or unwilling to hire more employees.

Another problem with a minimum wage is that it prevents the lowest tier of jobs from teaching employees who become skilled enough from actually negotiating their wages, preventing them from learning such a skill at an early age. This is also in addition to the minimum wage gatekeeping newer businesses, preventing them from hiring employees that they can afford.

Not only all of this, but businesses are already naturally prevented from paying employees too low of a wage in the first place. Not only would they lose employees to competitors if they paid them too little, but they'd also be reducing the number of people in the area that can afford their products, even if people were willing to work for wages which were too low. Oh, and voluntary unions also can help people negotiate wages, though Government-Enforced Unions allow the union to bully the business, which increases the cost of living as well.

Some people also support Federal Aid for subverting the cost of living problem, however it actually pushes wages down, due to the businesses knowing that people can obtain it. One example is Walmart encouraging employees to apply for Food Stamps. Businesses do a similar thing when dealing with insurance; Knowing they're dealing with someone who has deeper pockets, they increase the cost of their services, they would otherwise ensure that consumers can afford their product, as they would otherwise make no money.

Now, with all of that explained, I also have an ethical problem with the minimum wage. It's the Government using force to tell businesses how much money they have to hand over to their employees, regardless of whether or not the position or laborer is actually worth that amount or not. This is the Government telling businesses, or really anyone who uses their property as a means of production, what they can and can't do with that property, forcing association.

I have to look at the results of the force min wage. So you force the min wage. The problem is, the Company Store just raises it's prices to not only grab the wage increase but sucks in more of your money.

One Lady was interviewed. She worked in a Bank as a Teller. That should pay enough to live on right? It didn't. She lived on a Ramien Noodle diet with an occasional Sub, lived in her older SUV on the Street, Coleman Stove to cook with, used laundromats, joined a gym for the shower. Just to make ends meet. That was on 60 minutes. Did anyone after the showing take notice? No, no one. You see, a one BR Studio Apartment (1 room, period) cost more than her wages. Plus, every 3rd day, she had to move her SUV to a new location. Luckily, she didn't have any children. But you can see the system is broken in many areas where the greed factor leaves a lot of working people out on the street.

And the results are higher cost of living, and an adverse effect on the people that they're trying, supposedly, to help. This is because people won't work for too low of a price, and a business has to make money in order for the process to be worth the effort. What the effect of increasing the minimum wage shows is that businesses know what the labor and products are worth, and the Government does not.

I can't say that a bank teller should be worth any specific amount. What I can say is that she wouldn't be working the job if the money wasn't worth it to her. Alternatively, if we exchanged in a currency that had actual worth, everyone would be making a "living wage" regardless of whether a business was paying someone any specific amount or not.

See, the difficulty in living has nothing to do with your wages. One of the things politicians are intentionally taking advantage of is that a lot of people don't understand that wages does not equal purchasing power. Your purchasing power is not going far due to regulations and currency problems. Regulations, each and every one, necessarily make it more difficult for a business to enter the market, produce a product, or distribute that product, resulting in smaller businesses struggling while larger businesses acclimate to the new difficulty, which in turn results in fewer businesses in any one area, and less competitive markets. What do you think would happen if one business was paying employees 1$ an hour, one was paying employees 7$ an hour, and a third was paying 10$ an hour? People would work for the third, overflow would go to the second, and nobody would work for the first. Businesses would naturally be unable to get by only offering a 1$ wage, because nobody would work for that amount. This factor also applies to the amount items are sold for.

To be clear, my argument is not that things are fine, but that more Government isn't the answer, since Government is the problem in the first place.

Actually, I wonder if the Greed Factor can't be placed under the Ricco Act. It amounts to exactly the same thing.

What exactly is "the Greed Factor"?

Greed is the desire for more and more ... like a politician is greedy for taxpayer dollars.

But the "Greed Factor" is a capitalized essence. Surely it is more profound than simple greed. What say you, Daryl Hunt ?