YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[JakeStarkey]

Yours is the only prideful matter here, and your comment is dismissed.

Yes, but no one here is going to forget you claimed the word Lord was not in the Constitution. Everyone knows our date system is a direct reference to Christ. To deny that is absolute foolishness. "Year of our Lord" is a direct reference to Christ.

So which dating system prevalent in the 18th century would a person have to use if he did not want to refer to the Lord.

I'll wait while you Google some more fail.

There was an Arabic calendar. There was a mayan calendar. They could have been "prideful" and started their own calendar. They could have simply left out "the year of our Lord" with just the date.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Constitution was written and signed by Christians and deists for all Americans.

You have failed in your contention from the beginning and have fallen back steadily every since.

I am Christian, covered in the Blood of the Lamb. I call Him Lord and he calls me by my first name. The great majority of Christians believe as I, in the separation of church and state, have faith this is the desire of our God. Our land is one that is generally Christian, but the government was created secular by the Founders.

Why does this bother you? Are you a better Christian? Do you believe this is a salvation issue?

Your "agenda" is clear. You despise the Lord and anyone that believes in Him. It shows in you absolute intolerance for anything Christian.

This does not bother me at all. It is what I have been saying all along, that the Constitution was written, signed, and made for Christians. No where did I say that there was any plan (in fact the was a hinderance to) for a "state" declared denomination. Thank you for finally seeing the obvious.

To the other: no where did you or anyone else provide evidence that the people named declared themselves not to be Christian. The Quakers may have wanted Jefferson to ploclaim that he believed as "they" did (not necessarily that he didn't believe in Yeshua).

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your obstructionism is obvious, fallacious, and silly.

Now you are engaged in saying I said two things I did not say. You are a typical far right extremist in your dishonorable behavior.

Jefferson was not a Christian, end of story.

I am not saying you said Jefferson didn't go to church. I said you said he went to church to fake people out and appease them. Geez!!! This is what I get for trying to argue logical points with high schoolers. You can't even remember what you wrote a couple pages back. Who can argue with someone that can't even follow the argument?

Are you reading the posts? Your comments are irrelevant and make absolutely no sense in the context of my post. Your are sounding more like Hawly with each passing page.

 

[JakeStarkey]

All who have read the thread know that you once again are lying. Overruled and dismissed.

UR is pretending that he never argued that Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, and Allan were Christians.

His a typical far right extremist reactionary who accuses other people of saying things they didn't so that he can attack them.

He is fail as a poster here.

I never argued that and you, sir, are a liar if you say I did. Please provide supporting evidence, ie, find my post. I'm still waiting for your evidence of Washington refusing communion.

 

[bobcollum]

1,000 posts....holy shite.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This has been given above in the thread. You do not get to have the evidence kept being given to you.

Accept the fact that you are wrong.

That Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, and Allan were deists or non-Christians has been conclusively proven in this thread and elsewhere.

That logical4u refuses to accept the truth is her problem. Her objections are overruled by the clear and convincing facts.

In order for this statement to be true, you would have to state what definition of Diest you are referring to.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That the nation's government was created as secular is a statement of fact.

I believe the nation was generally one of Christians in 1787 and generally one today.

I do not believe that we are, however, a Christian nation created along the thinking of "Christ in America", as do, for instance, the Mormons.

So you believe the government was created secular. Got that. Do you believe this was a Christian Nation or is now?

I am Christian, covered in the Blood of the Lamb. I call Him Lord and he calls me by my first name. The great majority of Christians believe as I, in the separation of church and state, have faith this is the desire of our God. Our land is one that is generally Christian, but the government was created secular by the Founders.

Why does this bother you? Are you a better Christian? Do you believe this is a salvation issue?

Your "agenda" is clear. You despise the Lord and anyone that believes in Him. It shows in you absolute intolerance for anything Christian.

 

[logical4u]

One, which particular incidents?

Two, did they use the terms 'Jesus', 'the Christ', 'Our Father', or other terms clearly referring to the Christian god.

Without the above, your statement below means nothing.

UR is pretending that he never argued that Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, and Allan were Christians.

His a typical far right extremist reactionary who accuses other people of saying things they didn't so that he can attack them.

He is fail as a poster here.

I think you might be confused. I gave quotes from all of them indicating that they did indeed believe in the Lord and publicly called on the Lord to assist or bless those they felt needed it.

What is it that "you" say.... evidence has already been given.

You on the other hand have provided no evidence that any of the founding fathers ever wrote or publicly stated (and was documented, as many of their other statemenst were) that they did NOT believe in Yeshua, the Savior. You did post evidence where particular denominations or the establishment of a "state" religion were rejected, but nothing demonstrating the personal beliefs of these men.

 

[logical4u]

His writings clearly reveal that he did not believe in Jesus as the son of God or divine. You know that.

It's a misrepresentation to claim Jefferson was a Christian. In his bible, Jefferson dismisses two thirds of the trinity: Jesus as savior and the resurrection. What remains is a creator and not the Christian god.

He was a Deist.

Did Jefferson ever write: I do not believe in Yeshua? Did he ever write: I am not a Christian? In "his" Bible, did he ever write: these are my beliefs?

Do you know why "Ben Hur" was written?

It was written to help the author study the Bible. He did not write the Bible according to to what he read, but wrote it to make it more comprehesive to him.

I have seen no evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the Lord. I have seen evidence that he tried to provide hard verifiable facts with practical consideration of the human condition. He did not allow people to "hide" behind their "faith" to stop a discussion, but made them step outside the "box". He made people reach deeper inside and factually to present their side.

 

[Peach]

That the nation's government was created as secular is a statement of fact.

I believe the nation was generally one of Christians in 1787 and generally one today.

I do not believe that we are, however, a Christian nation created along the thinking of "Christ in America", as do, for instance, the Mormons.

So you believe the government was created secular. Got that. Do you believe this was a Christian Nation or is now?

I am Christian, covered in the Blood of the Lamb. I call Him Lord and he calls me by my first name. The great majority of Christians believe as I, in the separation of church and state, have faith this is the desire of our God. Our land is one that is generally Christian, but the government was created secular by the Founders.

Why does this bother you? Are you a better Christian? Do you believe this is a salvation issue?

Many have given their LIVES, and many their health, to keep this nation from being a totalitarian country, and that includes a theocracy. Why fight al Qaeda if the only difference is the METHOD?

 

[logical4u]

Yours is the only prideful matter here, and your comment is dismissed.

So which dating system prevalent in the 18th century would a person have to use if he did not want to refer to the Lord.

I'll wait while you Google some more fail.

There was an Arabic calendar. There was a mayan calendar. They could have been "prideful" and started their own calendar. They could have simply left out "the year of our Lord" with just the date.

And you appear meek and humble.......NOT!

 

[logical4u]

The Constitution was written and signed by Christians and deists for all Americans.

You have failed in your contention from the beginning and have fallen back steadily every since.

I am Christian, covered in the Blood of the Lamb. I call Him Lord and he calls me by my first name. The great majority of Christians believe as I, in the separation of church and state, have faith this is the desire of our God. Our land is one that is generally Christian, but the government was created secular by the Founders.

Why does this bother you? Are you a better Christian? Do you believe this is a salvation issue?

This does not bother me at all. It is what I have been saying all along, that the Constitution was written, signed, and made for Christians. No where did I say that there was any plan (in fact the was a hinderance to) for a "state" declared denomination. Thank you for finally seeing the obvious.

To the other: no where did you or anyone else provide evidence that the people named declared themselves not to be Christian. The Quakers may have wanted Jefferson to ploclaim that he believed as "they" did (not necessarily that he didn't believe in Yeshua).

You contradict yourself.

 

[logical4u]

That the nation's government was created as secular is a statement of fact.

I believe the nation was generally one of Christians in 1787 and generally one today.

I do not believe that we are, however, a Christian nation created along the thinking of "Christ in America", as do, for instance, the Mormons.

So you believe the government was created secular. Got that. Do you believe this was a Christian Nation or is now?

I am Christian, covered in the Blood of the Lamb. I call Him Lord and he calls me by my first name. The great majority of Christians believe as I, in the separation of church and state, have faith this is the desire of our God. Our land is one that is generally Christian, but the government was created secular by the Founders.

Why does this bother you? Are you a better Christian? Do you believe this is a salvation issue?

"Qualifier" alert (you can't back up what you are saying, so you want to make it so, by re-defining the discussion). No where did we talk about what Mormons believed. They were not around when the nation was founded...

 

[logical4u]

That the nation's government was created as secular is a statement of fact.

I believe the nation was generally one of Christians in 1787 and generally one today.

I do not believe that we are, however, a Christian nation created along the thinking of "Christ in America", as do, for instance, the Mormons.

So you believe the government was created secular. Got that. Do you believe this was a Christian Nation or is now?

Many have given their LIVES, and many their health, to keep this nation from being a totalitarian country, and that includes a theocracy. Why fight al Qaeda if the only difference is the METHOD?

Honey, no one is trying to make this country a theocracy. Some of us are just trying to keep others from pretending that Christianity had little or no influence on the founding of this country. Their different "Christian" denominations (because there were no other forms of religion established in the colonies at that time), were used as a basis for the first Amendment. They wanted "Christians" to be able to follow the "Christian" denomination of their choice (not as was done in Europe previous to that where your religion was chosen by the gov't leader). This has allowed peoples of other faiths to come to this country and live in more freedom than in most parts of the world. IMHO, this country is as great as it is specifically because "Christians" have prayed for the Lord to help us live by His Son's teachings. Because of "Christian" beliefs, people assisted their neighbors, their church, and their community, making better cities and states, and country than are found in other parts of the world where "Christianity" is oppressed.

 

[Hollie]

His writings clearly reveal that he did not believe in Jesus as the son of God or divine. You know that.

Did Jefferson ever write: I do not believe in Yeshua? Did he ever write: I am not a Christian? In "his" Bible, did he ever write: these are my beliefs?

Do you know why "Ben Hur" was written?

It was written to help the author study the Bible. He did not write the Bible according to to what he read, but wrote it to make it more comprehesive to him.

I have seen no evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the Lord. I have seen evidence that he tried to provide hard verifiable facts with practical consideration of the human condition. He did not allow people to "hide" behind their "faith" to stop a discussion, but made them step outside the "box". He made people reach deeper inside and factually to present their side.

You can certainly choose to disbelieve anything you wish.

The fact remains that Jefferson did not believe in Jesus as a savior and did not believe in a resurrection.

You can certainly choose to disbelieve anything you wish.

The fact remains that Jefferson did not believe in Jesus as a savior and did not believe in a resurrection. You can choose not to believe what Jefferson wrote and you can choose not to believe that he was a Deist.

You would of course be wrong. Your certainty that you know things you obviously don’t know is amusing. That said, I happen to find the truth to be very satisfying. Certainty may be even more satisfying, but what has that gained you if your certainty is delusional?

 

[Hollie]

That the nation's government was created as secular is a statement of fact.

I believe the nation was generally one of Christians in 1787 and generally one today.

I do not believe that we are, however, a Christian nation created along the thinking of "Christ in America", as do, for instance, the Mormons.

Many have given their LIVES, and many their health, to keep this nation from being a totalitarian country, and that includes a theocracy. Why fight al Qaeda if the only difference is the METHOD?

Honey, no one is trying to make this country a theocracy. Some of us are just trying to keep others from pretending that Christianity had little or no influence on the founding of this country. Their different "Christian" denominations (because there were no other forms of religion established in the colonies at that time), were used as a basis for the first Amendment. They wanted "Christians" to be able to follow the "Christian" denomination of their choice (not as was done in Europe previous to that where your religion was chosen by the gov't leader). This has allowed peoples of other faiths to come to this country and live in more freedom than in most parts of the world. IMHO, this country is as great as it is specifically because "Christians" have prayed for the Lord to help us live by His Son's teachings. Because of "Christian" beliefs, people assisted their neighbors, their church, and their community, making better cities and states, and country than are found in other parts of the world where "Christianity" is oppressed.

Sweety, I am surprised you can't understand that Christianity clearly did influence the FF’s and their narrative we call the constitution.

The FF’s knew all too well the negative effects that Christianity had on the lives of the people in England. Their writings absolutely identified that they knew the dangers of allowing religion to interfere in government. That is why they drafted a form of government that put a muzzle on the government’s ability to interfere in the lives of the citizenry.

 

[logical4u]

His writings clearly reveal that he did not believe in Jesus as the son of God or divine. You know that.

Do you know why "Ben Hur" was written?

It was written to help the author study the Bible. He did not write the Bible according to to what he read, but wrote it to make it more comprehesive to him.

I have seen no evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the Lord. I have seen evidence that he tried to provide hard verifiable facts with practical consideration of the human condition. He did not allow people to "hide" behind their "faith" to stop a discussion, but made them step outside the "box". He made people reach deeper inside and factually to present their side.

You can certainly choose to disbelieve anything you wish.

The fact remains that Jefferson did not believe in Jesus as a savior and did not believe in a resurrection.

You can certainly choose to disbelieve anything you wish.

The fact remains that Jefferson did not believe in Jesus as a savior and did not believe in a resurrection. You can choose not to believe what Jefferson wrote and you can choose not to believe that he was a Deist.

You would of course be wrong. Your certainty that you know things you obviously don’t know is amusing. That said, I happen to find the truth to be very satisfying. Certainty may be even more satisfying, but what has that gained you if your certainty is delusional?

I hear you talking, but again, no evidence that it was as you say....

You screamed and screamed for any reference of God in the Constitution. It was provided.

You make statements and call them facts, but I have seen no evidence that Jefferson ever declared himself not to believe in Yeshua. I have seen no evidence where Jefferson stated that he was a "deist". I find your re-stating of opinions without ever presenting evidence and declaring said opinions as "fact" as deceitful, and intellectually dishonest.

 

[logical4u]

Many have given their LIVES, and many their health, to keep this nation from being a totalitarian country, and that includes a theocracy. Why fight al Qaeda if the only difference is the METHOD?

Honey, no one is trying to make this country a theocracy. Some of us are just trying to keep others from pretending that Christianity had little or no influence on the founding of this country. Their different "Christian" denominations (because there were no other forms of religion established in the colonies at that time), were used as a basis for the first Amendment. They wanted "Christians" to be able to follow the "Christian" denomination of their choice (not as was done in Europe previous to that where your religion was chosen by the gov't leader). This has allowed peoples of other faiths to come to this country and live in more freedom than in most parts of the world. IMHO, this country is as great as it is specifically because "Christians" have prayed for the Lord to help us live by His Son's teachings. Because of "Christian" beliefs, people assisted their neighbors, their church, and their community, making better cities and states, and country than are found in other parts of the world where "Christianity" is oppressed.

Sweety, I am surprised you can't understand that Christianity clearly did influence the FF’s and their narrative we call the constitution.

The FF’s knew all too well the negative effects that Christianity had on the lives of the people in England. Their writings absolutely identified that they knew the dangers of allowing religion to interfere in government. That is why they drafted a form of government that put a muzzle on the government’s ability to interfere in the lives of the citizenry.

Yes, the corruption of the truth continues.

If "Christianity" was soooo bad, why did people come to this country to worship the Lord in their specific denomination?
The FF wanted no "state" established religion to avoid gov't leaders from thinking they had the authority to tell "citizens" (different than subjects) how to worship (choose their denomination).

They did not try to prevent the Christian faith from being practiced or sugjugated (that would be the current administration).

 

[JakeStarkey]

So you are now admitting they did not use the Christian honorifics in addressing the "lord".

Your arguments are overruled and dismissed then.

One, which particular incidents?

Two, did they use the terms 'Jesus', 'the Christ', 'Our Father', or other terms clearly referring to the Christian god.

Without the above, your statement below means nothing.

I think you might be confused. I gave quotes from all of them indicating that they did indeed believe in the Lord and publicly called on the Lord to assist or bless those they felt needed it.

What is it that "you" say.... evidence has already been given.

You on the other hand have provided no evidence that any of the founding fathers ever wrote or publicly stated (and was documented, as many of their other statemenst were) that they did NOT believe in Yeshua, the Savior. You did post evidence where particular denominations or the establishment of a "state" religion were rejected, but nothing demonstrating the personal beliefs of these men.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That reflects only on your own stubborn immorality to admit the truth that he did not believe in Jesus as the Living Son of God.

No one asked you about Lew Wallace, a devout believer in Jesus.

His writings clearly reveal that he did not believe in Jesus as the son of God or divine. You know that.

Did Jefferson ever write: I do not believe in Yeshua? Did he ever write: I am not a Christian? In "his" Bible, did he ever write: these are my beliefs?

Do you know why "Ben Hur" was written?

It was written to help the author study the Bible. He did not write the Bible according to to what he read, but wrote it to make it more comprehesive to him.

I have seen no evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the Lord. I have seen evidence that he tried to provide hard verifiable facts with practical consideration of the human condition. He did not allow people to "hide" behind their "faith" to stop a discussion, but made them step outside the "box". He made people reach deeper inside and factually to present their side.