$15 minimum wage would destroy 1.4 Million jobs

[danielpalos]

Are you stupid? So you are telling me, that if a company offered you $2/hour, you would.... knowing that you'll starve... take the job and work until you die?

Maybe left-wingers are that stupid, but right-wingers are not.

I had a job that paid too little. Here's what I did...> I quit <. Then I got another job that paid more. Why? Because I'm not a brain dead idiotic mindless left-winger.

Why do right wingers complain about taxes? Just quit and get a better job that pays more so you don't have to complain about taxes, silly right wingers.

 

[danielpalos]

That trying to ensure a standard of living through the MW is a losing proposition. If society deems a certain standard of living is a constitution level right, society through the legislators needs to levy the taxes necessary, properly identify those recipients who need the assistance and write the checks. Businesses are not welfare distribution centers and shouldn't be.

A race to the bottom with cheap wages and subsidizing Capitalists is worse.

 

[danielpalos]

I guess you're not playing.

The question was, "Why should it be illegal?"... You didn't answer - you dodged.

I would agree with you if capitalists who pay less than a guideline minimum wage get fewer tax breaks.

 

[Stryder50]

A case in point is the self-employment/small business venture I engaged in back during the mid 1980s.

As sub-contracted part of another persons business, delivering furniture purchases people made from a small chain of local furniture stores. I paid him a percentage of my gross revenues, based upon a scale of fees charged per type of furniture and/or distance (radius) from the store I operated out of.

I also had to cover operating expenses of the small truck I used. Also, I hired a guy to help carry the furniture (other end of the sofa say) and paid him minimum wage at the start, hoping I might be able to give him a raise later if things went well. After all these expenses/costs, what was left was the profit which I got as my "wage" to live off of.

I invoiced and was paid on a weekly basis. There were many weeks when my hired help got a bigger paycheck than I did. Most of the time, he just rode in the passenger seat from one stop to the next, reading the paper or his book, doing "window time". All he had to do was show up each day and help out a few moments through the work day.

I on the other hand was the one taking the risks and sometimes sweating bullets wondering if there would be enough business/income to cover it all and leave me anything when the day/week was done.

I had no guarantees, and that's the case with most businesses. Part of why so many will fail within the first few years, or later on if the customers don't come through the door (so to speak) and spend enough on the goods and/or services you offer to cover your costs/expenses and provide enough profit to make it worth staying in business and feed your family, cover your rent/mortgage.

I'm sure my helper thought he should be paid more, but he wasn't sharing the costs of the operation nor taking any of the risks. When it came time for me to fold and bail out of the contract, not making enough to live off of, he didn't offer to help pay off the debt and liabilities that remained.

Thanks for the anecdote. In hindsight, would it have been better for that job to have been a part-time job with another job as your primary source of income? Business models and modeling can be important. It can be more difficult for small businesses since even large corporations who can afford to hire entire departments to help them conform to rational choice theory can still have problems.

Between loading the truck in the AM and then running deliveries in the greater Seattle Metro area, it was usually 8-10 hours a day, M-F and sometimes Saturdays.

 

[Blues Man]

It has do do with your obvious math disability.

So...

Given you obvious math disability your claims are obviously well, just wrong.

A person making , say, $10/hour gets an increase over several years to $15 per hour
What do you think that person does with the extra money?
That's right, he spends it. On groceries, washing machines, cars,...
Republicans with their tax cuts make these same claims then proceed to cut taxes for the 1%.

Increased spending at the bottom increases economic activity which increases hiring and decreases unemployment.
Every tax cut since Bush in 01 has made this claim.
If returning $40 at the endo of the year is supposed to increase economic activity imagine what increasing the paycheck by 50% will do.

Your theory is so flawed. First of all increasing the wage will get employers to hire less people, invest in automation such as many fast food places have already done with more to come, and it will create a domino effect.

When the domino effect does a complete circle, everything else costs more money. The additional wage the MW worker now has won't buy them anymore than they have today. Food will go up, dining will be a little more expensive, rent will likely increase, gasoline will have to go up. Everything increases.

The only two things that is really accomplished is that government gets more money via payroll taxes, and it will cause inflation. All you have to do is look what's happening between blue and red states. You do better in life making $15.00 an hour in a red state than you do $20.00 an hour in a blue state. The costs of living are different.

And you show a complete ignorance of actual economics.

A business operates with the minimum level of staffing required to run the business.
Cutting employees cuts the business' ability to function.
Increasing pay increases the competence of employees as less competent employees are replaced by better employees interested in the better wage.
This increases the business' performance.
Increasing the wages at the lower level increases economic activity, the basis of every tax cut Republicans have ever supported.
By increasing that economic activity at the lowest level we increase hiring at that level which reduces unemployment
Which, in turn, reduces government spending
The business owner may, in the short term, experience lower profits but, over the longer term, their businesses will grow because of increased demand.

This really is just basic economics and, unlike Truman, you don't need two hands to figure it out.

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

 

[Blues Man]

And this is according to the Far Left CBO.

Undoubtably it would be a lot more.

Any poor person who needs to work deserves this shit sandwich they are being served- if they actually voted for the Dems.

Raising minimum wage to $15 would cost 1.4 million jobs, CBO says

Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour would cost 1.4 million jobs over the next four years, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

www.cnbc.com

A federal minimum wage hike like that is stupid. Allow the states to make their own and separate decisions.

$15 in CA is a lot different than $15 in Alabama.

which is why MW is a state issue and not a federal one

 

[danielpalos]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

Only due to less effective public policies by design? Coincidence or conspiracy. There is no reason to subsidize capitalists with cheap labor in our first world economy.

You're insane.

You have nothing but fallacy (of argumentum ad hominem), why should I or anyone take you seriously?

 

[Blues Man]

If a job can't pay even $15 an hour, then it's not a real job and doesn't need doing.

Says who? If I want to take a job making less than that, why is it anyone else's business?

It could depend on whether or not you are also obtaining social services. We should not be subsidizing capitalists with cheap labor merely so they can get richer faster.

That's why it's called a 'minimum wage', so sociopaths and labor racketeers can't abuse labor past a certain point and forces businesses to compete in other ways than simply on price cutting, like you know, good management, competence, quality, customer service, etc., all the stuff that many so -called 'business owners' are incompetent at so they make noises about minimum wage laws and their rights to use criminal illegal alien labor to get around those laws.

If you want a job paying less than MW, just move to Mexico or Red China, where you will be really happy.

Minimum wage is nothing but an arbitrary number and is completely divorced from the worth of labor.

A person's whose skill set is barely high enough to pick up dog shit isn't worth 15 dollars an hour.

 

[danielpalos]

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

Why do you hate poor, unskilled workers?

Why do you hate and complain about taxes for social services which help subsidize cheap labor for Capitalists?

Unskilled workers earning low wages reduce the cost of social services.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage. It is why some firms were helping their labor force sign up for social welfare benefits.

 

[dblack]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

Only due to less effective public policies by design? Coincidence or conspiracy. There is no reason to subsidize capitalists with cheap labor in our first world economy.

You're insane.

You have nothing but fallacy (of argumentum ad hominem), why should I or anyone take you seriously?

And you have nothing but cryptic, rambling, stoner horseshit.

 

[danielpalos]

A case in point is the self-employment/small business venture I engaged in back during the mid 1980s.

As sub-contracted part of another persons business, delivering furniture purchases people made from a small chain of local furniture stores. I paid him a percentage of my gross revenues, based upon a scale of fees charged per type of furniture and/or distance (radius) from the store I operated out of.

I also had to cover operating expenses of the small truck I used. Also, I hired a guy to help carry the furniture (other end of the sofa say) and paid him minimum wage at the start, hoping I might be able to give him a raise later if things went well. After all these expenses/costs, what was left was the profit which I got as my "wage" to live off of.

I invoiced and was paid on a weekly basis. There were many weeks when my hired help got a bigger paycheck than I did. Most of the time, he just rode in the passenger seat from one stop to the next, reading the paper or his book, doing "window time". All he had to do was show up each day and help out a few moments through the work day.

I on the other hand was the one taking the risks and sometimes sweating bullets wondering if there would be enough business/income to cover it all and leave me anything when the day/week was done.

I had no guarantees, and that's the case with most businesses. Part of why so many will fail within the first few years, or later on if the customers don't come through the door (so to speak) and spend enough on the goods and/or services you offer to cover your costs/expenses and provide enough profit to make it worth staying in business and feed your family, cover your rent/mortgage.

I'm sure my helper thought he should be paid more, but he wasn't sharing the costs of the operation nor taking any of the risks. When it came time for me to fold and bail out of the contract, not making enough to live off of, he didn't offer to help pay off the debt and liabilities that remained.

Thanks for the anecdote. In hindsight, would it have been better for that job to have been a part-time job with another job as your primary source of income? Business models and modeling can be important. It can be more difficult for small businesses since even large corporations who can afford to hire entire departments to help them conform to rational choice theory can still have problems.

Between loading the truck in the AM and then running deliveries in the greater Seattle Metro area, it was usually 8-10 hours a day, M-F and sometimes Saturdays.

Did you simply not charge enough?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Are you stupid? So you are telling me, that if a company offered you $2/hour, you would.... knowing that you'll starve... take the job and work until you die?

Maybe left-wingers are that stupid, but right-wingers are not.

I had a job that paid too little. Here's what I did...> I quit <. Then I got another job that paid more. Why? Because I'm not a brain dead idiotic mindless left-winger.

Why do right wingers complain about taxes? Just quit and get a better job that pays more so you don't have to complain about taxes, silly right wingers.

Why do right wingers complain about taxes? Just quit and get a better job

Why do you complain about unemployment? Just quit smoking weed all day and get a job.

 

[initforme]

All this arguing over $15 an hour which is a wage one cannot survive on anywhere in this so called great nation.

 

[danielpalos]

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

That is a disingenuous argument and always has been. What do you when the price of materials rise that you use for input to your business?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

Why do you hate poor, unskilled workers?

Why do you hate and complain about taxes for social services which help subsidize cheap labor for Capitalists?

Unskilled workers earning low wages reduce the cost of social services.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage. It is why some firms were helping their labor force sign up for social welfare benefits.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage.

When the cost of living is above the minimum wage, welfare is still lower for workers than for bums.

 

[Blues Man]

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

That is a disingenuous argument and always has been. What do you when the price of materials rise that you use for input to your business?

When the costs of supplies goes up you raise prices.

When the cost of labor goes up you raise prices.

you have to to maintain a profitable business.

Raising a broom pushers salary from 7.25 to 15 an hour doesn't make his skills worth more and will not result in more broom pushers.

 

[danielpalos]

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

Why do you hate poor, unskilled workers?

Why do you hate and complain about taxes for social services which help subsidize cheap labor for Capitalists?

Unskilled workers earning low wages reduce the cost of social services.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage. It is why some firms were helping their labor force sign up for social welfare benefits.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage.

When the cost of living is above the minimum wage, welfare is still lower for workers than for bums.

I agree to disagree. Labor usually incurs housing costs and may have kids to take care of.

 

[Blues Man]

All this arguing over $15 an hour which is a wage one cannot survive on anywhere in this so called great nation.

Where is it written that a low skill job has to pay enough to survive?

MW jobs are for teenagers and really if you're 30 years old and still making minimum wage it's your own fault

 

[Blues Man]

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

Why do you hate poor, unskilled workers?

Why do you hate and complain about taxes for social services which help subsidize cheap labor for Capitalists?

Unskilled workers earning low wages reduce the cost of social services.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage. It is why some firms were helping their labor force sign up for social welfare benefits.

Not when the cost of living is above the minimum wage.

When the cost of living is above the minimum wage, welfare is still lower for workers than for bums.

I agree to disagree. Labor usually incurs housing costs and may have kids to take care of.

that's not the employer's problem.

 

[danielpalos]

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

That is a disingenuous argument and always has been. What do you when the price of materials rise that you use for input to your business?

When the costs of supplies goes up you raise prices.

When the cost of labor goes up you raise prices.

you have to to maintain a profitable business.

Raising a broom pushers salary from 7.25 to 15 an hour doesn't make his skills worth more and will not result in more broom pushers.

So what; value and price (cost) are two different things. Did your supplies gain more value from the increased price?