4 year old exercises his second amendment rights

[ChrisL]

Gary Kleck | Florida State College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

I wonder how much of Mr. Kleck's "research" is underwritten and funded by the NRA?

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

 

[Brain357]

Most rapes aren't defensable with a gun. The girl who is completely drunk isn't going to use a gun. The girl who is already naked and then says no cant use a gun. Many victims are under 18 and can't have a gun.

Wow ....you really are stupid.......and all the women grabbed in parking lots and at bus stops.....and in the parking garage of their college.....they should just be allowed to be raped...right...twit.

Do you always have to think like a 12 year old....?

Those are a tiny percent of rapes. And as we see in the OP, a gun is often a bad idea.

You are still stupid....so....because it is a smaller group than date rape.....they should just be raped? They should not be able to stop the rape with a gun? Are you really 12 years old or do you just post like a 12 year old.

And as I stated before......a gun stops date rape just as well as a back alley rape...twit.

They are welcome to have a gun if they wish. But they are probably more likely to be this woman shot by her 4 year old, or the woman shot dead by her kid in Walmart, or the bra holster woman who shot herself dead than to ever defend herself.

Wrong brain.....357,000,000 million guns in private hands....

over 320,000,000 million people in the United States....

non fatal gun accidents....19,000

fatal gun accidents... 505....

So no.....you are so wrong that you aren't even in the ballpark, the parking lot of the ballpark or even the state the ball park is in......

How many rapes are stopped with a gun each year?

 

[Brain357]

Gary Kleck | Florida State College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

I wonder how much of Mr. Kleck's "research" is underwritten and funded by the NRA?

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

 

[ChrisL]

Gary Kleck | Florida State College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

I wonder how much of Mr. Kleck's "research" is underwritten and funded by the NRA?

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

No he wasn't. He peer reviewed the methodology and results, and he has admitted that it is spot on. Sorry that you can't read and understand what you are reading.

 

[Brain357]

Dr. Kleck | The Propaganda Professor

There’s a certain number that gun fanatics just love. Well, actually there are several numbers they love, but there’s one in particular that they lustfully salivate over: 2.5 million. That’s the putative number of defensive gun uses (DGUs) that occur in the United States every single year. That’s a highly impressive “statistic”, which is why you’ll see it starring on bumper stickers or websites or wherever else people want to emphasize the need for firearms in order to feel safe from all the THEMs out there.

Except the “statistic” is not really a statistic. It’s a projection, an estimate, put forth in a “study” by Florida criminologist Dr. Gary Kleck (in collaboration with Professor Marc Gertz), based on interviews of alleged defenders in 1993. Except the “study” wasn’t really a study; it was a survey, which is a sort of glorified poll.

Whatever terminology you choose to use, the point is that the Kleck “study”, which involved 222 respondents, didn’t really estimate how many DGU’s actually occur; it estimated how often gun owners say they occur. That’s a different thing, but just how different is it? Well, let’s see how it stacks up against the real world.

Why do you guys always target Kleck?....one study of at least 13......which supports his numbers......


You target his study because it was the study done with the most attention to detail, and the most attention to getting it right....of course...that puts his numbers right in the middle of the highest bracket of studies....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

Ah the list of studies that are really just surveys and we see how accurate that is with all this presidential polling. If thats not enough many on your list aren't even national, don't exist, or you have zero details about the survey. Your list is a joke.

Look, brainless, you are no expert so zip it.

So how big was the la times survey? Was it national?

Are you all stupid or something???

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey.[13]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

 

[ChrisL]

NOBODY has been able to refute or debunk Dr. Kleck's studies since they were performed in the 90s. The reason WHY the CDC used them in 2010. The stupidity in this thread is just amazing. Lol.

 

[ChrisL]

Why do you guys always target Kleck?....one study of at least 13......which supports his numbers......


You target his study because it was the study done with the most attention to detail, and the most attention to getting it right....of course...that puts his numbers right in the middle of the highest bracket of studies....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

Ah the list of studies that are really just surveys and we see how accurate that is with all this presidential polling. If thats not enough many on your list aren't even national, don't exist, or you have zero details about the survey. Your list is a joke.

Look, brainless, you are no expert so zip it.

So how big was the la times survey? Was it national?

Are you all stupid or something???

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey.[13]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

The LA Times didn't conduct a survey, you idiot. They report the results. Derp. No wonder I call you brainless.

 

[Brain357]

Gary Kleck | Florida State College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

I wonder how much of Mr. Kleck's "research" is underwritten and funded by the NRA?

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

No he wasn't. He peer reviewed the methodology and results, and he has admitted that it is spot on. Sorry that you can't read and understand what you are reading.

You continue to show you have no clue.
“The usual criticisms of survey research, such as that done by Kleck
and Gertz, also apply to their research. The problems of small
numbers and extrapolating from relatively small samples to the
universe are common criticisms of all survey research, including
theirs. I did not mention this specifically in my printed comments
because I thought that this was obvious; within the specific
limitations of their research is what I meant by a lack of criticism
methodologically.”
(J of Criminal Law and Criminology 86:2 p617-8)

 

[ChrisL]

So, even if the study was off by 1 MILLION, it is still showing us that people do in fact use guns for self defense and that they do in fact save lives. MORE lives than are lost to guns. Lives that are lost to guns are because of criminals. And you assholes want to take guns away from honest law-abiding citizens. You people are fucked up.

 

[ChrisL]

Gary Kleck | Florida State College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

I wonder how much of Mr. Kleck's "research" is underwritten and funded by the NRA?

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

No he wasn't. He peer reviewed the methodology and results, and he has admitted that it is spot on. Sorry that you can't read and understand what you are reading.

You continue to show you have no clue.
“The usual criticisms of survey research, such as that done by Kleck
and Gertz, also apply to their research. The problems of small
numbers and extrapolating from relatively small samples to the
universe are common criticisms of all survey research, including
theirs. I did not mention this specifically in my printed comments
because I thought that this was obvious; within the specific
limitations of their research is what I meant by a lack of criticism
methodologically.”
(J of Criminal Law and Criminology 86:2 p617-8)

Where is the link? I don't see a link here. Post the link because we already know that you are a dishonest asshole.

 

[Brain357]

Ah the list of studies that are really just surveys and we see how accurate that is with all this presidential polling. If thats not enough many on your list aren't even national, don't exist, or you have zero details about the survey. Your list is a joke.

Look, brainless, you are no expert so zip it.

So how big was the la times survey? Was it national?

Are you all stupid or something???

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey.[13]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

The LA Times didn't conduct a survey, you idiot. They report the results. Derp. No wonder I call you brainless.

Then why does 2aguy list it as a separate survey and why does it have a different number than kleck? You really are lost...

 

[ChrisL]

Look, brainless, you are no expert so zip it.

So how big was the la times survey? Was it national?

Are you all stupid or something???

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey.[13]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

The LA Times didn't conduct a survey, you idiot. They report the results. Derp. No wonder I call you brainless.

Then why does 2aguy list it as a separate survey and why does it have a different number than kleck? You really are lost...

It was a survey based on other studies that have been performed, you retard!!! What is the matter with you?? Dr. Kleck performed a STUDY with research and data.

 

[Brain357]

I wonder how much of Mr. Kleck's "research" is underwritten and funded by the NRA?

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

No he wasn't. He peer reviewed the methodology and results, and he has admitted that it is spot on. Sorry that you can't read and understand what you are reading.

You continue to show you have no clue.
“The usual criticisms of survey research, such as that done by Kleck
and Gertz, also apply to their research. The problems of small
numbers and extrapolating from relatively small samples to the
universe are common criticisms of all survey research, including
theirs. I did not mention this specifically in my printed comments
because I thought that this was obvious; within the specific
limitations of their research is what I meant by a lack of criticism
methodologically.”
(J of Criminal Law and Criminology 86:2 p617-8)

Where is the link? I don't see a link here. Post the link because we already know that you are a dishonest asshole.

Like it matters, you live in fantasy land and ignore all facts.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6873&context=jclc

 

[Brain357]

So how big was the la times survey? Was it national?

Are you all stupid or something???

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey.[13]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

The LA Times didn't conduct a survey, you idiot. They report the results. Derp. No wonder I call you brainless.

Then why does 2aguy list it as a separate survey and why does it have a different number than kleck? You really are lost...

It was a survey based on other studies that have been performed, you retard!!! What is the matter with you?? Dr. Kleck performed a STUDY with research and data.

It was? You just said it wasn't. We aren't talkin about kleck, 2aguy lists an imaginary la times study. Give some details.

 

[ChrisL]

Kleck’s National Self-Defense Survey findings provided a strong argument for concealed carry laws and keeping guns in the home for self-defense purposes. It also provided a counter argument to other surveys at the time which claimed that keeping guns for the purpose of self-defense was inadvisable due to their overall danger to the gun owner and his family members.

Marvin Wolfgang, a noted criminologist who was on record favoring a ban on all firearms, even those carried by law enforcement officers, was quoted as saying that the Kleck survey was nearly foolproof, saying: “What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator…I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology.”

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

No he wasn't. He peer reviewed the methodology and results, and he has admitted that it is spot on. Sorry that you can't read and understand what you are reading.

You continue to show you have no clue.
“The usual criticisms of survey research, such as that done by Kleck
and Gertz, also apply to their research. The problems of small
numbers and extrapolating from relatively small samples to the
universe are common criticisms of all survey research, including
theirs. I did not mention this specifically in my printed comments
because I thought that this was obvious; within the specific
limitations of their research is what I meant by a lack of criticism
methodologically.”
(J of Criminal Law and Criminology 86:2 p617-8)

Where is the link? I don't see a link here. Post the link because we already know that you are a dishonest asshole.

Like it matters, you live in fantasy land and ignore all facts.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6873&context=jclc

From your link . . .

The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.

 

[Brain357]

So, even if the study was off by 1 MILLION, it is still showing us that people do in fact use guns for self defense and that they do in fact save lives. MORE lives than are lost to guns. Lives that are lost to guns are because of criminals. And you assholes want to take guns away from honest law-abiding citizens. You people are fucked up.

Not a single life is saved in any of the surveys.

 

[ChrisL]

Are you all stupid or something???

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use (DGU - the use of guns for self-protection), compared to about 0.5 million gun crimes as estimated by the National Crime Victimization Survey.[13]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

The LA Times didn't conduct a survey, you idiot. They report the results. Derp. No wonder I call you brainless.

Then why does 2aguy list it as a separate survey and why does it have a different number than kleck? You really are lost...

It was a survey based on other studies that have been performed, you retard!!! What is the matter with you?? Dr. Kleck performed a STUDY with research and data.

It was? You just said it wasn't. We aren't talkin about kleck, 2aguy lists an imaginary la times study. Give some details.

We already have. Multiple times in this thread and others.

 

[Brain357]

Wolfgang was clear that the survey was too small to be accurate.

No he wasn't. He peer reviewed the methodology and results, and he has admitted that it is spot on. Sorry that you can't read and understand what you are reading.

You continue to show you have no clue.
“The usual criticisms of survey research, such as that done by Kleck
and Gertz, also apply to their research. The problems of small
numbers and extrapolating from relatively small samples to the
universe are common criticisms of all survey research, including
theirs. I did not mention this specifically in my printed comments
because I thought that this was obvious; within the specific
limitations of their research is what I meant by a lack of criticism
methodologically.”
(J of Criminal Law and Criminology 86:2 p617-8)

Where is the link? I don't see a link here. Post the link because we already know that you are a dishonest asshole.

Like it matters, you live in fantasy land and ignore all facts.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6873&context=jclc

From your link . . .

The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.

And as he also says it is limited because it is so tiny.

 

[ChrisL]

So, even if the study was off by 1 MILLION, it is still showing us that people do in fact use guns for self defense and that they do in fact save lives. MORE lives than are lost to guns. Lives that are lost to guns are because of criminals. And you assholes want to take guns away from honest law-abiding citizens. You people are fucked up.

Not a single life is saved in any of the surveys.

What's your agenda here brainless? You have already been proven wrong. Lol. You just look foolish now.

 

[Brain357]

That isn't the la times survey idiot.

The LA Times didn't conduct a survey, you idiot. They report the results. Derp. No wonder I call you brainless.

Then why does 2aguy list it as a separate survey and why does it have a different number than kleck? You really are lost...

It was a survey based on other studies that have been performed, you retard!!! What is the matter with you?? Dr. Kleck performed a STUDY with research and data.

It was? You just said it wasn't. We aren't talkin about kleck, 2aguy lists an imaginary la times study. Give some details.

We already have. Multiple times in this thread and others.

No you give kleck results, that is not the la times.