A Reasonable Solution To The Gay Marriage Debate

[koshergrl]

Oh that is absolute bullshit.

But, if that is the way you want to look at it, then you must like domestic abuse, poverty, death from cancer, cureable diseases running rampant, segments of society being kept down, and the plethora of other problems that have been addressed by these changes.

No, I never said society was all peachy keen and without problems. You lied again. I simply pointed out that I do not see society in decline, and especially not due to gay marriage (which is what we are actually discussing in between your lies and strawman arguments).

You want it to be black & white. You want all the changes to be either good or bad. I am realistic enough to see there are problems with all change, but that change is inevitable. I don't scream about the decline in society unless there is actually a decline in society.

You claimed there were exponential increases in crime. There were several posts (with links) that showed relatively small increases, and plenty of decreases.

You claimed there were exponential increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STD, ect ect. And link showed different. (From no less an authority than the CDC)

And you're lying.

The CDC shows EXPONDENTIAL increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STDS and murder since the advent of the "sexual revolution".

You dishonest pieces of shit keep pretending the slight decrease in the last 10 years negates the fact that for 40 years prior to that, the rates of abortion, child murder, child abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, and STDs climbed steadily. The last 10 years decrease doesn't represent overall decreases at all.

Since we are discussing gay marriage, and that gays being out is a relatively recent occurance, no one looked at the last 40 years. 30 years ago people were still being fired from jobs, beaten up and losing custody of children simply for their sexual orientation.

I also notice you did not back down or apologize for accusing me of being in favor of child abuse or child molestation?

You deny there are any issues with child abuse or child molestation, you don't acknowledge the increase in incidence, you state that our only societal issue is a *slight* downturn in the economy...

Obviously you think it's okay to have an upsurge in those things. I have nothing to apologize for.

And yes, we are discussing gay marriage, but we are also discussing history, that of course progressives like to either lie about or just ignore. And the HISTORY of the *improvements* you extremists tout as being "positive" have actually resulted in very unsavory trends.

I can understand that you would like to ignore them. Unfortunately, those of us who aren't committed wholesale to the continued attack on all that is wholesome, healthy, and proven effective, will not.

 

[koshergrl]

Oh that is absolute bullshit.

But, if that is the way you want to look at it, then you must like domestic abuse, poverty, death from cancer, cureable diseases running rampant, segments of society being kept down, and the plethora of other problems that have been addressed by these changes.

No, I never said society was all peachy keen and without problems. You lied again. I simply pointed out that I do not see society in decline, and especially not due to gay marriage (which is what we are actually discussing in between your lies and strawman arguments).

You want it to be black & white. You want all the changes to be either good or bad. I am realistic enough to see there are problems with all change, but that change is inevitable. I don't scream about the decline in society unless there is actually a decline in society.

You claimed there were exponential increases in crime. There were several posts (with links) that showed relatively small increases, and plenty of decreases.

You claimed there were exponential increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STD, ect ect. And link showed different. (From no less an authority than the CDC)

And you're lying.

The CDC shows EXPONDENTIAL increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STDS and murder since the advent of the "sexual revolution".

You dishonest pieces of shit keep pretending the slight decrease in the last 10 years negates the fact that for 40 years prior to that, the rates of abortion, child murder, child abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, and STDs climbed steadily. The last 10 years decrease doesn't represent overall decreases at all.

So sex causes folk to murder.

Perversion, promiscuity, single parent households, and sexual molestation lead to crime. You bet.

And the rejection of children as *human* leads to lack of protection, lack of concern, and abuse. You bet count two.

 

[daws101]

I disagree. I think that you can not separate social and economic issues. Spiritual decline leads to economic decline and a decline in the ability to protect ourselves as a society and a world power.

Earlier you claimed yours was not a religous argument.

Spiritual principles are universal. They include, the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

I see less value given to universal spiritual principles including love, selflessness, honesty, integrity, humility, patience, courage, sacrifice, compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, self-discipline, open-mindedness, perseverance and gratitude to God. At the same time I see more value given to popularity, beauty, coolness, sexuality, wealth, pride, diversity ( as a virtue, in and of itself), fame, power, thrill seeking, phony self esteem and the hatred toward God.

seeing through a glass darkly are we.
all the thing you described are hand in glove you can't have one without the other.
those concepts (bad and good ) we're in play long before Christianity was invented.

 

[daws101]

We are not in decline.

We certainly aren't in decline because of social issues like gay marriage. This has been the empty shrill siren call of the self-appointed moral Cassandras for 100 years.

Not at all. The stats bear out the fact that since the sexual revolution and the release of the pro-child abuse, pro-promiscuity, Kinsey reports, pro-no-fault divorce Kinsey reports, our society has fallen into the hole that whole-sale sexual depravity leads to.

Divorce, crime, child abuse, sexually transmitted diseases, abortion...all exponentially higher than pre-Kinsey and pre-RvW.

Unless you think those are signs of a sound society?

This is one of the fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives seek to "restore America". Liberals seek to "change America".

restore America to what? some fantasy time that never existed?
what so amusing about that statement is the people who use it display a"willfull ignorance" of history.
pick a time in our history when things closer to life, liberty, happiness, justice for all and equality?
OK choose ..
this should be entertaining.

 

[Montrovant]

You keep stating that we're in a great position, socially, that the changes we have undergone are an improvement.

Those are the changes we're talking about. So obviously you approve of them.

And at least you're finally acknowledging them now. I get so tired of you wackos just pretending that everything is peachy keen.Which of course tells me, and everybody else, that you like the changes.

As we all know you do.

Oh that is absolute bullshit.

But, if that is the way you want to look at it, then you must like domestic abuse, poverty, death from cancer, cureable diseases running rampant, segments of society being kept down, and the plethora of other problems that have been addressed by these changes.

No, I never said society was all peachy keen and without problems. You lied again. I simply pointed out that I do not see society in decline, and especially not due to gay marriage (which is what we are actually discussing in between your lies and strawman arguments).

You want it to be black & white. You want all the changes to be either good or bad. I am realistic enough to see there are problems with all change, but that change is inevitable. I don't scream about the decline in society unless there is actually a decline in society.

You claimed there were exponential increases in crime. There were several posts (with links) that showed relatively small increases, and plenty of decreases.

You claimed there were exponential increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STD, ect ect. And link showed different. (From no less an authority than the CDC)

And you're lying.

The CDC shows EXPONDENTIAL increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STDS and murder since the advent of the "sexual revolution".

You dishonest pieces of shit keep pretending the slight decrease in the last 10 years negates the fact that for 40 years prior to that, the rates of abortion, child murder, child abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, and STDs climbed steadily. The last 10 years decrease doesn't represent overall decreases at all.

Do you understand what exponential means?

If something increases exponentially, it would not raise steadily. In fact, it would raise more and more. If shown as a graph, rather than a straight line, you would see a curve.

 

[koshergrl]

Are we going to focus on trivia now?

I think 80 x more abortions is exponential. If that is not mathematically correct terminology, you are free to attack my math teachers.

 

[daws101]

Spiritual principles are universal. They include, the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. They also include the following:

I see less value given to universal spiritual principles including love, selflessness, honesty, integrity, humility, patience, courage, sacrifice, compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, self-discipline, open-mindedness, perseverance, gratitude to God. At the same time I see more value given to popularity, beauty, coolness, sexuality, wealth, pride, diversity ( as a virtue, in and of itself), fame, power, thrill seeking and phony self esteem.

I think much of this has to do with where you look and the influence of the media and politicians.

I have seen great examples of love, selflessness, courage and sacrifice. Spend some time working with disastor relief or working in an area hit by a disastor and you will see it too. The problem is, the media doesn't report it. They'd rather spew garbage that keep us uncomfortable or afraid. And that is because reporting fearful things is self-serving.

I see that the value given to beauty, popularity, coolness, wealth,pride, power, thrill seeking and fame have always been with us. These are nothing new. But again, the media loves to portray what they want. It is self-serving.

I see more people communicating with more different people than ever before in the history of mankind. Anytime we have more communication there is the potential for conflict, but also the potential for great things.

I see that we have more people having access to a quality education than ever before in our history. We have more people with more access to better medical care than ever before in our history. We have more people following their dreams. We have more people free to change professions and careers. We have people who, just a few decades ago, saw only limited options now having virtually unlimited opportunities. We have music, literature and arts available to more people from more sources than ever in our history.

I see unrest being portrayed because the populations are no longer able to be controlled, as they were just a few decades ago. If that scares you I am sorry.

I see our society in a flux, as these new freedoms create new avenues for people that did not exist a short time ago. If that scares you I am sorry.




One of the basic points you need to consider is the influence of the media. You can rant about porno and glamor junk ruining us. But what ruins us is the acceptance of news slanted to an agenda. That is what destroys. That is what causes fear. And teh reaction to that fear is damaging.

Think about when you watch the news. If you are having a great day, life is good and you feel hopeful, do you rush to turn on CNN or Fox? No. But if there is a disastor you certainly do. You watch news when you are scared. News is no longer a service. News is big business. And how do they keep you watching? By keeping you afraid. Stop being afraid and you'll be much happier.

Gays marrying will not destroy anything. It is a minor issue at best, unless you are gay and in a situation where on of the benefits of being married would help.

Our society is doing fine. The economic downturn was not created by gays or diversity or any of the other things you fear. It was created by greed and by the people in charge being uninterested in what is best for people.

How can you say that our society is doing fine when the government borrows 43 cents for every dollar that it spends. This is unsustainable and nobody seems to to think that this is a critical problem that will destroy us unless we reduce the size and cost of government.

Also, American universities are a HUGE part of our decline. They promote an agenda that is anti-american, anti-God and anti-family. Without God, family and country, our nation will cease to exist. American universities do MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

There is nothing new about yellow journalism, However today's American culture is no longer able to discern the truth from lies because they have lost their moral compass.

is it just me, or does this just scream of indoctrination and a sense of entitlement.
more importantly it stinks of an assumed Superior moral agenda based on the unprovable premise of a god.

 

[koshergrl]

I think much of this has to do with where you look and the influence of the media and politicians.

I have seen great examples of love, selflessness, courage and sacrifice. Spend some time working with disastor relief or working in an area hit by a disastor and you will see it too. The problem is, the media doesn't report it. They'd rather spew garbage that keep us uncomfortable or afraid. And that is because reporting fearful things is self-serving.

I see that the value given to beauty, popularity, coolness, wealth,pride, power, thrill seeking and fame have always been with us. These are nothing new. But again, the media loves to portray what they want. It is self-serving.

I see more people communicating with more different people than ever before in the history of mankind. Anytime we have more communication there is the potential for conflict, but also the potential for great things.

I see that we have more people having access to a quality education than ever before in our history. We have more people with more access to better medical care than ever before in our history. We have more people following their dreams. We have more people free to change professions and careers. We have people who, just a few decades ago, saw only limited options now having virtually unlimited opportunities. We have music, literature and arts available to more people from more sources than ever in our history.

I see unrest being portrayed because the populations are no longer able to be controlled, as they were just a few decades ago. If that scares you I am sorry.

I see our society in a flux, as these new freedoms create new avenues for people that did not exist a short time ago. If that scares you I am sorry.




One of the basic points you need to consider is the influence of the media. You can rant about porno and glamor junk ruining us. But what ruins us is the acceptance of news slanted to an agenda. That is what destroys. That is what causes fear. And teh reaction to that fear is damaging.

Think about when you watch the news. If you are having a great day, life is good and you feel hopeful, do you rush to turn on CNN or Fox? No. But if there is a disastor you certainly do. You watch news when you are scared. News is no longer a service. News is big business. And how do they keep you watching? By keeping you afraid. Stop being afraid and you'll be much happier.

Gays marrying will not destroy anything. It is a minor issue at best, unless you are gay and in a situation where on of the benefits of being married would help.

Our society is doing fine. The economic downturn was not created by gays or diversity or any of the other things you fear. It was created by greed and by the people in charge being uninterested in what is best for people.

How can you say that our society is doing fine when the government borrows 43 cents for every dollar that it spends. This is unsustainable and nobody seems to to think that this is a critical problem that will destroy us unless we reduce the size and cost of government.

Also, American universities are a HUGE part of our decline. They promote an agenda that is anti-american, anti-God and anti-family. Without God, family and country, our nation will cease to exist. American universities do MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

There is nothing new about yellow journalism, However today's American culture is no longer able to discern the truth from lies because they have lost their moral compass.

is it just me, or does this just scream of indoctrination and a sense of entitlement.
more importantly it stinks of an assumed Superior moral agenda based on the unprovable premise of a god.

You have an active fantasy life, I can see.

 

[daws101]

You keep stating that we're in a great position, socially, that the changes we have undergone are an improvement.

Those are the changes we're talking about. So obviously you approve of them.

And at least you're finally acknowledging them now. I get so tired of you wackos just pretending that everything is peachy keen.Which of course tells me, and everybody else, that you like the changes.

As we all know you do.

who the fuck is we? I love it when you dogmabots appeal to non existent authority!

 

[koshergrl]

No authority, just a majority.

 

[daws101]

And PS...did you or did you not say our society was doing just fine, except for a *slight* economic downturn?

Yes I did. But that in no way infers any of the horrific crap you accused me of.

I see both good and bad in our society. But I see more growth, realization of potential and increases in quality of life for more people. I see that as good. I see more information and knowledge available for more people, and I think that is good.

Just because I do not see society in decline does not mean, in any way, that I see it as perfect or without problems.

bump

 

[Gadawg73]

And you're lying.

The CDC shows EXPONDENTIAL increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STDS and murder since the advent of the "sexual revolution".

You dishonest pieces of shit keep pretending the slight decrease in the last 10 years negates the fact that for 40 years prior to that, the rates of abortion, child murder, child abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, and STDs climbed steadily. The last 10 years decrease doesn't represent overall decreases at all.

So sex causes folk to murder.

Perversion, promiscuity, single parent households, and sexual molestation lead to crime. You bet.

And the rejection of children as *human* leads to lack of protection, lack of concern, and abuse. You bet count two.

Sexual promiscuity leads to crime?
Single parent households do not lead to crime.
BAD PARENTING can lead to a crime but what is that % of all crime?

How does the "rejection of children as human" lead to crime when the abortion kills the fetus?
You have no facts to back up, no correction, YOU NEVER HAVE ANY FACTS to back up anything you claim on this subject.

 

[koshergrl]

Ok I'm going to ignore that because that's just stupidity on parade.

Unless you really want to maintain that there is no connection between criminal behavior and single parent households?

 

[daws101]

I seek to restore the the basic values of God, family and country along with the spiritual values I mentioned above.

That is great. But when people decide they don't want God, don't blame the universities. Blame the greed, promotion of hatred, and control issues of the churches. That is what has turned people away.

Promoting families is great. A gay couple raising children is a family, whether you like it or not. Include that in your values and I'm more likely to believe you.

The values of country are kinda another issue. I love this country and what it has done over the 250 odd years it has been around. But I also despise some of the things it has done and has stood for. That is where we differ. You want to go back to unquestioning loyalty, whereas I prefer to see reality. I am proud of the good and ashamed of the bad.

A very small percentage of gay men are interested in raising children. Bi-sexual women often raise children from previous broken marriages. The contribution of gay couples to raising families is negligible. Also, children benefit more from opposite-sex parents. man and women complement each other and keep each other in check. Gay unions are missing balance.

The universities are systematically destroying their student's faith in God. 80% of university students lose their faith in God before they graduate. It is very arrogant to teach kids that there is NO higher power. This defies reason and commonsense. It also leaves kids vulnerable to the belief that the government is their highest authority.

total bullshit!
if you went to college you must have missed the most important reason for going.
TO open minds to possibilities..not to indoctrinate them into a one dimensional pov.
if 80% of university students lose their faith,then logically there are major flaws in that faith if knowledge has the power to kill it.

 

[daws101]

How can you say that our society is doing fine when the government borrows 43 cents for every dollar that it spends. This is unsustainable and nobody seems to to think that this is a critical problem that will destroy us unless we reduce the size and cost of government.

Also, American universities are a HUGE part of our decline. They promote an agenda that is anti-american, anti-God and anti-family. Without God, family and country, our nation will cease to exist. American universities do MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

There is nothing new about yellow journalism, However today's American culture is no longer able to discern the truth from lies because they have lost their moral compass.

is it just me, or does this just scream of indoctrination and a sense of entitlement.
more importantly it stinks of an assumed Superior moral agenda based on the unprovable premise of a god.

You have an active fantasy life, I can see.

really? lets go back over your posts and see who's "fantasy life" (project much) is more evident?

 

[daws101]

No authority, just a majority.

another lie you tell yourself news flash: 56% of the american people think that same sex marriage should be legal nation wide and the number is growing every day.

 

[garyganu]

You keep stating that we're in a great position, socially, that the changes we have undergone are an improvement.

Those are the changes we're talking about. So obviously you approve of them.

And at least you're finally acknowledging them now. I get so tired of you wackos just pretending that everything is peachy keen.Which of course tells me, and everybody else, that you like the changes.

As we all know you do.

Oh that is absolute bullshit.

But, if that is the way you want to look at it, then you must like domestic abuse, poverty, death from cancer, cureable diseases running rampant, segments of society being kept down, and the plethora of other problems that have been addressed by these changes.

No, I never said society was all peachy keen and without problems. You lied again. I simply pointed out that I do not see society in decline, and especially not due to gay marriage (which is what we are actually discussing in between your lies and strawman arguments).

You want it to be black & white. You want all the changes to be either good or bad. I am realistic enough to see there are problems with all change, but that change is inevitable. I don't scream about the decline in society unless there is actually a decline in society.

You claimed there were exponential increases in crime. There were several posts (with links) that showed relatively small increases, and plenty of decreases.

You claimed there were exponential increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STD, ect ect. And link showed different. (From no less an authority than the CDC)

And you're lying.

The CDC shows EXPONDENTIAL increases in teen pregnancy, abortion, STDS and murder since the advent of the "sexual revolution".

You dishonest pieces of shit keep pretending the slight decrease in the last 10 years negates the fact that for 40 years prior to that, the rates of abortion, child murder, child abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, and STDs climbed steadily. The last 10 years decrease doesn't represent overall decreases at all.

We have solved the problem of hunger in the US, at least for now. However, that has happened many times in the past. The cycles of feast and famine repeat throughout history.

 

[garyganu]

Earlier you claimed yours was not a religous argument.

Spiritual principles are universal. They include, the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

I see less value given to universal spiritual principles including love, selflessness, honesty, integrity, humility, patience, courage, sacrifice, compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, self-discipline, open-mindedness, perseverance and gratitude to God. At the same time I see more value given to popularity, beauty, coolness, sexuality, wealth, pride, diversity ( as a virtue, in and of itself), fame, power, thrill seeking, phony self esteem and the hatred toward God.

The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness do not have a damn thing to do with your la de la da "spiritual principles".
Americans enjoy them because OF THE LAW and the blood spilled in protection of them.
Nothing spiritual whatsoever.

The following is an excerpt from the "Declaration of Independence" Which our constitution was based on:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Your ignorance proves my point about the brainwashing that occurs in today's education system.

 

[Katzndogz]

No authority, just a majority.

another lie you tell yourself news flash: 56% of the american people think that same sex marriage should be legal nation wide and the number is growing every day.

If that is true then certainly some state would have passed same sex marriage by the vote. Out of 32 states, 32 have rejected the premise. Aside from polls conducted to prove a point, where has same sex marriage been a majority view?

 

[garyganu]

Earlier you claimed yours was not a religous argument.

Spiritual principles are universal. They include, the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

I see less value given to universal spiritual principles including love, selflessness, honesty, integrity, humility, patience, courage, sacrifice, compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, self-discipline, open-mindedness, perseverance and gratitude to God. At the same time I see more value given to popularity, beauty, coolness, sexuality, wealth, pride, diversity ( as a virtue, in and of itself), fame, power, thrill seeking, phony self esteem and the hatred toward God.

seeing through a glass darkly are we.
all the thing you described are hand in glove you can't have one without the other.
those concepts (bad and good ) we're in play long before Christianity was invented.

You are correct, you can't have good without evil, humility without braggadocia and so on and so forth. However, today's popular culture is celebrating and embracing the negative and demonizing the positive. All things run in cycles and history repeats itself. These are signs of a declining society.