Abortion: A Sad Reality

[Pennywise]

Where does FREE WILL come in here? God gave man FREE WILL and admonished him to follow his laws. It is man's choice whether or not he chooses to follow God's law. By outlawing abortion you are taking away that FREE WILL.
If a woman uses her FREE WILL and decides to have an abortion it is none of your business. It is between her and God. You have no right to try to remove her FREE WILL and to tell her what she can and cannot do.

If it's my FREE WILL to murder my neighbor, who are you to tell me I can't? I choose whether or not to follow God's law, so leave me be while I take my chainsaw to the head of the asshole next door.

It is your FREE WILL to murder your neighbor. I can tell you you shouldn't but I cannot stop you. However, if you do so you will be breaking civil law and be subject to prison or the death penality. We don't lock people up until AFTER a crime has been committed. There is no civil law against abortion. You may be breaking God's law but that is between you and God.
And please, stop with the bull shit "chain saw" shit. Before long you will be typing people to the train track

Civil Law has nothing to do with God or FREE WILLY. I am hoping you find yourself typed to a train track soon, as I have tired of your irrational bizzaro rants.

 

[Pennywise]

I see, your moral outrage only goes so far.

So it's the kind of "murder" that you don't want to punish people for. Look at you and all those "morals"

I'll play one more time. Abortion is legal, therefore I have no say in punishment. Slavery was once legal, but try and own a colored man today.

You want a hypothetical? Sure. If abortion were back to its rightful status of being illegal, it should carry the same penalty as murder of a person outside the womb carries. In fact, if I kill a woman who is pregnant and the "baby" dies as well, I will be charged with two counts of murder. Chew on that conundrum for a while, captain.

Wait, so abortion is legal so you cant say if you would would punish the people who get or perform them.

BUT Abortion is legal but that doesn't stop you from crying that everyone should do as you say. It seems the legality of abortion doesn't stop you from whining about it but it does stop you from following thru.

Proving once again you don't believe its murder. No matter if its legal or not your morals would have an opinion on it. But you're pretending

All I can say at this point, is that you are a profound dunce. Your ability to comprehend seems to have ceased to grow in grade 3. Have a nice day.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Thanks for the duplicity

 

[g5000]

going back to 5-10k deaths from hatchett jobs is not the answer- a joke...

That meme is a fabrication.

The risk of dying from childbirth is greater than the risk of dying from an abortion.

[MENTION=41417]Dragonlady[/MENTION] [MENTION=32338]francoHFW[/MENTION]

Franco was parroting a very common meme that 5,000 to 10,000 women a year were dying from back alley abortions.

It is a completely bogus meme. The pro-abortion forces had no compunctions about lying.

In Aborting America (1979) Nathanson writes: "In NARAL we generally emphasized the drama of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but when we spoke of the latter it was always '5,000 to 10,000 deaths a year.' I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose the others did too if they stopped to think of it. But in the 'morality' of our revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics?" (Emphasis is his.)

Better late than never. For 1972, the last full year before Roe, the federal Centers for Disease Control reported that 39 women died due to illegal abortion. (The death total for all abortions, including legal ones, was 88.)

The Straight Dope: Before Roe v. Wade, did 10,000 women a year die from illegal abortions?

 

[g5000]

Dude its really really simple. Mind your business and keep your morals to yourself.

Once you try to make someone else abide by what you think is right. How moral is that?

All laws are based on morality, dude. Who are you to tell me I can't murder my neighbor whose dog shits on my sidewalk? How moral is that?

You want to murder your neighbor. Go ahead.

See the difference between you and I?

Yes. I think we see the difference quite clearly.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I understand that there is great discord on the issue of abortion, but I cringe whenever someone says "If you don't want an abortion, don't get one". This is like saying "If you don't like killing another person, don't kill anyone".

If you understood the difference between criminal and civil law, you wouldn’t ‘cringe.’ In accordance with civil law, prior to viability, the state lacks the authority to dictate to a woman whether she may have a child or not. Consequently, abortion is nothing like allowing people to murder or not with impunity, as murder concerns criminal law, and abortion is not ‘murder.’

The whole essence behind the pro-life idea is that all people are endowed with the right to life when they are conceived. These rights don't come from government. They come from God.

Everyone is ‘pro-life,’ there is no one who is ‘anti-life.’

The conflict is between those who are opposed to abortion also opposing a ‘ban’ on abortion, and those opposed to abortion who advocate banning the practice – but both camps are equally opposed to abortion.

To oppose a ban on abortion does not make one ‘pro-abortion,’ just as someone who is opposed to aspirin as a ‘cure’ for a brain tumor is not ‘pro-cancer.’

I really wish people could change their mind on this issue.

To what end?

Even if a majority of people advocated banning abortion, it would still be un-Constitution, as our civil liberties are not determined by majority rule, and the majority does not have the authority to determine who will or will not be afforded his civil liberties.

With banning abortion off the table, therefore, it’s incumbent upon you to come up with a solution to the problem of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[velvtacheeze]

I understand that there is great discord on the issue of abortion, but I cringe whenever someone says "If you don't want an abortion, don't get one". This is like saying "If you don't like killing another person, don't kill anyone". The whole essence behind the pro-life idea is that all people are endowed with the right to life when they are conceived. These rights don't come from government. They come from God.

I would ask those who are obstinately pro-choice to ask themselves this: How would you justify to your creator that you thought this was OK?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...F4yTSC399IYqNc1tpZLW4SIxIe-px55h4vcEaG78mS5_A

If you say you don't believe in God, then ask yourself this: is it morally right to take someone's life for the sake of convenience?

Forget the instances of rape or the life of a mother. That's about 3% of total abortions. Let's talk about the 97% of the 50 unborn children(or "fetuses" using the pro-choice lingo") killed since Roe v. Wade.

I understand that the majority of Americans are "pro-choice". But I think the reason for that is that they don't know the real story behind abortion. I really wish people could change their mind on this issue.

A fetus and some person are not the same thing. We on the left are BAFFLED as to how anyone could think otherwise.

And besides, if the Right would agree to make child bearing and child raising less financially onerous by collectivizing the costs of it, then abortion would be much less attractive. Child birth should be a cost paid for by taxpayers fully, be they poor or the Trumps. Schooling, through college, should be taxpayer supported. In Europe, where this is the case, the standards for getting into college are where they should be: Very High. The taxpayers are generous, but you do have to earn university education.

Anyway, if you want the demand for abortion to go down, bring the cost of motherhood down.

 

[g5000]

I think the problem is more that Christians who claim to be "pro-choice" never have actually seen pictures of what abortion is, or always think about the issue as "rights of woman" rather than "the right to life". I do believe people, if given the facts, may change their minds. But demonizing people makes it impossible to educate them.......we need to assume they have good intentions, and then explain why their "intentions" are completely, 100% wrong.

Sorry, but by rejecting God, atheists and agnostics cannot be assumed to have good intentions, as they have nowhere to build there morals from, and as such, their intentions cannot be "good" since they believe in moral relativism.

Even more bull shit! Unending stupidity seems to rule your life. I have no doubt your are one of those good, moral christians who definitely want the baby to be born but who then will bitterly refuse to help feed it, clothe it, provide it shelter, and refuse to educate it.

Ah. Then we should be able to exterminate anyone on welfare. Anyone who is a burden on society.

 

[g5000]

The inconvenience argument seems to be the only leg the anti-life side has going for it. The kid would be a financial burden, and if everyone else won't open up their wallets and pay for the child, we should be allowed to kill it.

This argument could be used to support the extermination of all of society's burdens.

One half of all abortions are the result of no birth control being used during the sexual intercourse which resulted in the pregnancy.

The anti-life side is holding that child's life hostage. Let me fuck my brains out completely irresponsibly and either YOU pay for the kid that results or I will murder it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Pennywise, you're going to have to find more creative ways to express you want to control other people that's not so obvious

What I want is for people to think logically about what exactly an abortion is, and not treat the act as some minor inconvenience. Abortion is murder, no matter what the SCOTUS has claimed. Just because its legal does not make it right.

And my logic trail is sound. Unless a person can care for themselves they have no right to life.

Ignorant nonsense.

Everyone involved in the abortion debate takes the subject very seriously, no one perceives it as a ‘minor inconvenience.’

Indeed, that’s one of many reasons why it is appropriate to oppose banning abortion: because it simply won’t work, as women were having abortions long before Roe.

And abortion is not ‘murder,’ to argue otherwise is hyperbolic idiocy. What the Supreme Court wisely and correctly determined is that it was not the place of the courts or the state to determine when life begins, that the state is poorly suited to make such a determination, and that personal, moral decisions are best left to the individual to decide, in accordance with his own good conscience – we do not want politicians and bureaucrats making that decision.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I really wish people could change their mind on this issue.

We live in america and with that comes a thing called "freedom". The law of the land is the constitution, not the bible. You far right wingnuts need to understand that,..

Isn't the concept at issue what the Nuremberg Trials were about?

One, of necessity, must fight for what is right.


"Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito" meaning "do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it."


Killing an innocent human being seems to fall within that proscription.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Both a fetus and a newborn are incapable of supporting themselves outside of the womb. So the flaw in the far lefts argument is that if the newborn is just as helpless as the fetus, then both of them are by their logic not a sentient human being. Life begins when the heart starts beating within the developing unborn child. Since, by that logic, no person born or unborn can live without a heart. It is why the heart is the first thing to form during gestation, or about the 5th week of pregnancy. All the nutrients need to be pumped through the unborn child's developing body for it to continue to develop. Scientifically speaking, your life begins at the first heartbeat.

Fairly major difference.

ANYONE can care for a baby once it's been born. It's not compelling anyone to do so.

But when a fetus is still in a woman's womb, and you tell her she must carry it to term, even if it got in there because she was gang-raped, then it is compulsion of the worst kind.

I thought you guys were about "Freedom"?

 

[BDBoop]

[

Both a fetus and a newborn are incapable of supporting themselves outside of the womb. So the flaw in the far lefts argument is that if the newborn is just as helpless as the fetus, then both of them are by their logic not a sentient human being. Life begins when the heart starts beating within the developing unborn child. Since, by that logic, no person born or unborn can live without a heart. It is why the heart is the first thing to form during gestation, or about the 5th week of pregnancy. All the nutrients need to be pumped through the unborn child's developing body for it to continue to develop. Scientifically speaking, your life begins at the first heartbeat.

Fairly major difference.

ANYONE can care for a baby once it's been born. It's not compelling anyone to do so.

But when a fetus is still in a woman's womb, and you tell her she must carry it to term, even if it got in there because she was gang-raped, then it is compulsion of the worst kind.

I thought you guys were about "Freedom"?

Nope.

 

[American4Americ]

On a side note, has anyone ever seen an atheist/agnostic rejoin the flock of Christianity? Because personally I haven't, as such I am inclined to believe that they cannot be saved.

 

[Hoosier4Liberty]

On a side note, has anyone ever seen an atheist/agnostic rejoin the flock of Christianity? Because personally I haven't, as such I am inclined to believe that they cannot be saved.

Here's a good one, and a former abortion doctor and founder of NARAL(pro-abortion group that funds Democrats):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson

 

[Noomi]

On a side note, has anyone ever seen an atheist/agnostic rejoin the flock of Christianity? Because personally I haven't, as such I am inclined to believe that they cannot be saved.

Here's a good one, and a former abortion doctor and founder of NARAL(pro-abortion group that funds Democrats):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson

Dude is just as bad as Jill Stanek.

 

[JoeB131]

On a side note, has anyone ever seen an atheist/agnostic rejoin the flock of Christianity? Because personally I haven't, as such I am inclined to believe that they cannot be saved.

i have.

But it more has to do with a fear of death than a rational decision.

 

[Jughead]

As a pro-Life'er, in my opinion the only time we should consider terminating the life of an unborn baby is when the life of the mother would be in danger.

These babies are God's creation and deserve an opportunity to life just like the rest of us have had. Why should we deny them something which we all have?

In our society, the unborn child is the most vulnerable as he cannot defend himself, thus we must ensure that we do everything in our power to ensure his safety. If that means shutting down abortion clinics, so be it.

To those who would contemplate having an abortion, may I suggest that they instead allow the baby a chance to live, and give him up for adoption afterwards. Many folks cannot conceive children of their own, and usually wind up looking overseas to adopt a child. What better way to a happy ending. A couple gets to adopt a child without the need to go overseas, and a child is spared his life.

 

[ron4342]

If it's my FREE WILL to murder my neighbor, who are you to tell me I can't? I choose whether or not to follow God's law, so leave me be while I take my chainsaw to the head of the asshole next door.

It is your FREE WILL to murder your neighbor. I can tell you you shouldn't but I cannot stop you. However, if you do so you will be breaking civil law and be subject to prison or the death penality. We don't lock people up until AFTER a crime has been committed. There is no civil law against abortion. You may be breaking God's law but that is between you and God.
And please, stop with the bull shit "chain saw" shit. Before long you will be tying people to the train track

Civil Law has nothing to do with God or FREE WILLY. I am hoping you find yourself typed to a train track soon, as I have tired of your irrational bizzaro rants.

What you are calling "irrational bizzaro rants" is actually logic that you are unwilling to face and unable to defeat.
God gave man FREE WILL. You cannot deny that fact.
By removing abortion you place a woman in a position where she has NO FREE WILL regarding her pregnancy. She is supposed to be able to make that decision. That is not how FREE WILL is supposed to work.You are making the choice for her. In fact, by removing her FREE WILL you are violating God's plan. Nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone has a right to remove a person's FREE WILL, not even you religious crazies!!.
If a woman has an abortion and if God considers it a sin, HE will be the one to pass judgment on her. It is not your job, IT IS GOD'S JOB.
Perhaps you should re-read the story reqarding Sir Thomas More. I am saying exactly what he is stating except in different words.
Let me re-write it for you.
Sir Thomas More, a saint in the Catholic church, once held the position of Lord Chancellor which is a position similar to that of Attorney General.
A man once came up to Sir Thomas and asked him to arrest a certain woman. When Sir Thomas asked him what the she had done the man replied, "She is a bad person." Sir Thomas answered, "It is not against the law to be a bad person." The man then replied, "But she has sinned against God! She has had an abortion." Sir Thomas shut the man up by giving him this answer, "Oh, if she has sinned against God and had an abortion, then it is God who should arrest her.
IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE AND IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO TAKE AWAY THE FREE WILL THAT GOD HAS GIVEN THEM!!!.

 

[Mr. H.]

Abortions in the U.S. have leveled under Obama.

It is now more profitable to have and keep children!