Abortion Doctor George Tiller Reportedly Killed at Church

[Tech_Esq]

And this is precisely the sentiment I was talking about yesterday. There is no shutting down the opposition on this issue. They legitimately and honestly believe that the people engaged in performing abortions are the moral equivalent of Nazi death camp operators.

That is because that is what their "leaders" are telling them. It isn't a POLITICAL issue anywhere else in the world. They are entitled to their beliefs FOR THEMSELVES... They are NOT entitled to impose those religious beliefs on others who don't share them.

Somehow there must be an accommodation reached between the two sides on this issue.

No...there doesn't. The only accomodation they should get is the right to follow their own conscience.

They need to stay away from everyone else. And the sane and moderate christians need to call these people the terroristic wackos that they are.

I'm not the one who could tell you if they are thinking that because some "leaders" on the right are telling them that, or not. There appear to be some on this board that hold view not far from Terry's if there is any separation at all, perhaps it would be best for them to respond. I have known many people in that movement and it would not surprise me to find that they independently held the same view.

I understand that you feel strongly about the issue, however tyranny is rarely the correct answer in matters of conscience. I think their is probably a nice middle ground that neither side will find wholly acceptable, but both can live with.

I think the sane Christians do condemn their actions and would not accept the line of thought and "reason" this person exhibited. Like I said yesterday, I don't think, as a percentage, people who agree with this guy even make up a fraction of a percentage of the population. However, there are a lot of people before you get to a fraction of a percentage in this country. That's a lot of murderous assholes running around trying to kill people.

 

[jillian]

March 1993 Dr David Gunn shot by Michael Griffin, a member of "Rescue America".

1993 Dr. George Tiller shot by Shelly Shanon who later set fires aand threw acid at abortion clinics

June 1994 Dr. John Britten and clinic escort murdered by Paul Hill

six months later: John Salvi murdered two abortion clinic receptionists in Brookline. Mass... he said he was the "thief on the cross with Jesus".

1998 Good ole Eric Rudoph bombings at abortion clinics, gay bars and the Atlanta Olympics... "Rudolph declared that his bombings were part of a guerrilla campaign against abortion and the "homosexual agenda".

Eric Robert Rudolph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

October 1998 Dr. Bernard Sleppian murdered by James Kopp of the "Lambs of Christ".



And now George Tiller murdered, apparently by Scott Roederer, who liked writing things for Prayer and Action News which supports killing of abortion providers.

but he's a real good guy...

Scott Philip Roeder (born February 25, 1958(1958-02-25)) was arrested some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.[9][35][36] He was charged on June 1, 2009, with first-degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault.[37] The suspect had been a member of the anti-government Montana Freemen group and was convicted in 1996 on explosives charges after police officers discovered a fuse cord, a pound of gunpowder and nine-volt batteries in the trunk of his car. The Kansas Court of Appeals overturned this conviction in 1997, ruling that the search of Roeder's car had been illegal.[38][39][40] Roeder's ex-wife Lindsey asserted in a 2009 interview after Tiller's killing that the explosives had been intended for detonation at an abortion clinic.[41] David Leach, publisher of Prayer & Action News, a magazine that describes itself as "a trumpet call for the Armies of God to assemble" and that opines that the killing of abortion providers would be justifiable homicide, told reporters that he and Roeder had met once in the early 1990s and that Roeder had authored contributions to Leach's publication later in that decade.[42][43][44]

George Tiller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Kathleen Sebelius was wrong, eh?

BTW, good ole Randolph Terry called Dr. Tiller a "mass murderer"...

but nah... no responsibility for the wackos in the anti-choice movement...

 

[jillian]

From the terrorist at Rescue America:

I believe that the demand for non-violence in regard to the imminent deaths of innocent human beings is totally misguided and is a work of Satan. To promise to be peaceful while innocent human beings are being murdered would be unconscionable.

Rescue America and Operation Rescue about Non-Violence

 

[jillian]

If this were something being done by Muslim Fundies, the same people who say "well, the Dr. brought it on himself" would be clamoring for closed borders and sending every Muslim to Gitmo...

Fundies are fundies...

 

[jillian]

Precisely what the left would do if harm befell Bush Cheney, Gonzales, Coulter, O'Reilly, Palin, (remember you hung her in effigy) Beck, Limbaugh (remember you wished his kidney's would fail) you gonna take responsibility for that despicable act if they do??? yawn yawn yawn!

who's "you", you braindead freak?

Hey, Tech, is Willlow Psycho what you'd call your "sane Christians"? Look how the wingnuts are loving that this doctor was killed.

The people who do this type of thing should be treated no differently than any other terrorists.

 

[Agnapostate]

Oh no! That sharp tongue is at work again...

 

[Tech_Esq]

From the terrorist at Rescue America:

I believe that the demand for non-violence in regard to the imminent deaths of innocent human beings is totally misguided and is a work of Satan. To promise to be peaceful while innocent human beings are being murdered would be unconscionable.

Rescue America and Operation Rescue about Non-Violence

Thanks for all the assists! I appreciate your research. These are exactly proving my point. The more disenfranchised people on that side of the debate get, more desperate they will act. In my view it is not good to have within a country a significant set of people who are feeling this way.

It isn't good when it's racial, as it has been in the past. It isn't good when it is political, as it has been in the past. And it isn't good when this is the issue. The results are predictable and consistent.

 

[jillian]

Thanks for all the assists! I appreciate your research. These are exactly proving my point. The more disenfranchised people on that side of the debate get, more desperate they will act. In my view it is not good to have within a country a significant set of people who are feeling this way.

It isn't good when it's racial, as it has been in the past. It isn't good when it is political, as it has been in the past. And it isn't good when this is the issue. The results are predictable and consistent.

No no no no no no no no no no!

Cause these same wackos don't want sex ed, birth control, morning after pills, education funding or job training for single mothers, welfare for single mothers or anything else that allows babies to be cared for.

I know you don't think we should be giving muslim terrorists what they want from us to find a common ground.

These people are terrorists.... they need to keep their religion in their churches. Why on earth should anyone compromise their constitutional right to have government stay out of their body to pacify religious extremists?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Precisely what the left would do if harm befell Bush Cheney, Gonzales, Coulter, O'Reilly, Palin, (remember you hung her in effigy) Beck, Limbaugh (remember you wished his kidney's would fail) you gonna take responsibility for that despicable act if they do??? yawn yawn yawn!

who's "you", you braindead freak?

Hey, Tech, is Willlow Psycho what you'd call your "sane Christians"? Look how the wingnuts are loving that this doctor was killed.

The people who do this type of thing should be treated no differently than any other terrorists.

Just like I said above. There are some on this thread who believe very similar to Terry. Whether they believe that independently or because of people like Terry, is a question for them.

Look, I disagree with their conclusions, but I understand how they arrived at them. I have seen no reason to doubt that their beliefs are sincerely held. Putting myself in their position with those beliefs, I can understand that they might hold what would seem to me to be a radical view that all these abortions are murder.

Having said all that, it is not legitimate, in my view, for them to then move forward and say violence is justified in face of what they believe is a human tragedy.

But, I would ask you, if you stood with a sniper rifle on a hill outside Belsen in 1943, would you shoot the camp commander, or no?

 

[WillowTree]

From the terrorist at Rescue America:

I believe that the demand for non-violence in regard to the imminent deaths of innocent human beings is totally misguided and is a work of Satan. To promise to be peaceful while innocent human beings are being murdered would be unconscionable.

Rescue America and Operation Rescue about Non-Violence

Thanks for all the assists! I appreciate your research. These are exactly proving my point. The more disenfranchised people on that side of the debate get, more desperate they will act. In my view it is not good to have within a country a significant set of people who are feeling this way.

It isn't good when it's racial, as it has been in the past. It isn't good when it is political, as it has been in the past. And it isn't good when this is the issue. The results are predictable and consistent.

funny how the left encourages, abides, defends, and justifies their hate.. innit??? ah yes,, the "tolerant left" if we could all be just like them,, lesseee what shall we do today,, dance on Tony Snow's grave,, hurl shoes at GWB,, shall we harass the troops,, block their entrance onto our colleges,, shall we hurl pies and other stuff at ann coulter,, shall we hope LImbaugh's kidney's fail and laugh like the brain dead freaks we are,, what shall we do today??? lessee, wei'll priase Bill Ayeres for being an upstanding citizen,, yes,, that's the ticket.. oh hell yes,, it's wonderful to be left.. lessee how bout we make returning vets stand outside on the tarmac and not let them come in?? how about we exclude returning vets from the "hate crimes bill to protect the left who hate the vets how about that???how bout that? won't that be fun.. lessee,, we can burn a flag or two,, that's always nice,, how bout we go scratch up some hummers and burn down some houses?? won't that be fun.. oh and if we get bored let's rape coulter or palin they both deserve it don't they.. cry me a fucking river. oh and if we haven't had enough fun let's make Judge Thomas feel like he's had a high tech lynching.. That's always good for laughs. innit?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Thanks for all the assists! I appreciate your research. These are exactly proving my point. The more disenfranchised people on that side of the debate get, more desperate they will act. In my view it is not good to have within a country a significant set of people who are feeling this way.

It isn't good when it's racial, as it has been in the past. It isn't good when it is political, as it has been in the past. And it isn't good when this is the issue. The results are predictable and consistent.

No no no no no no no no no no!

Cause these same wackos don't want sex ed, birth control, morning after pills, education funding or job training for single mothers, welfare for single mothers or anything else that allows babies to be cared for.

I know you don't think we should be giving muslim terrorists what they want from us to find a common ground.

These people are terrorists.... they need to keep their religion in their churches. Why on earth should anyone compromise their constitutional right to have government stay out of their body to pacify religious extremists?

I think you are indulging in a little "right play." Isn't that what you accuse the Bush of doing? Once you call someone a terrorist, half the battle is won, isn't it?

The difference is that you have to live and work with these people. They are part of your society. I'm not, by any means, saying give up abortion. That's not a compromise, that's a capitulation.

Come'on, you've negotiated plenty before, you can imagine what a compromise in this situation would look like. You give up late term, except in the most dire circumstances. Abortions, are in general, scaled back to only pre-viability. Etc. Etc.

I understand your point about the sex ed, welfare etc. I don't have any problem with it. I'm not sure that it works, but I'm not against it. Careful with my money though. We might have a tussle about that.

As far as the Constitutional right goes, I'm probably not the guy you want to talk to on that. I think Griswold is a big, steaming pile of shit. It's certainly no place to rest your right to an abortion. I'd feel much better about it if the states had granted the right.

 

[Newby]

Thanks for all the assists! I appreciate your research. These are exactly proving my point. The more disenfranchised people on that side of the debate get, more desperate they will act. In my view it is not good to have within a country a significant set of people who are feeling this way.

It isn't good when it's racial, as it has been in the past. It isn't good when it is political, as it has been in the past. And it isn't good when this is the issue. The results are predictable and consistent.

No no no no no no no no no no!

Cause these same wackos don't want sex ed, birth control, morning after pills, education funding or job training for single mothers, welfare for single mothers or anything else that allows babies to be cared for.

I know you don't think we should be giving muslim terrorists what they want from us to find a common ground.

These people are terrorists.... they need to keep their religion in their churches. Why on earth should anyone compromise their constitutional right to have government stay out of their body to pacify religious extremists?

I think you are indulging in a little "right play." Isn't that what you accuse the Bush of doing? Once you call someone a terrorist, half the battle is won, isn't it?

The difference is that you have to live and work with these people. They are part of your society. I'm not, by any means, saying give up abortion. That's not a compromise, that's a capitulation.

Come'on, you've negotiated plenty before, you can imagine what a compromise in this situation would look like. You give up late term, except in the most dire circumstances. Abortions, are in general, scaled back to only pre-viability. Etc. Etc.

I understand your point about the sex ed, welfare etc. I don't have any problem with it. I'm not sure that it works, but I'm not against it. Careful with my money though. We might have a tussle about that.

As far as the Constitutional right goes, I'm probably not the guy you want to talk to on that. I think Griswold is a big, steaming pile of shit. It's certainly no place to rest your right to an abortion. I'd feel much better about it if the states had granted the right.

You're trying to use reason and common sense here which is something that is sadly lacking on the left side of the aisle, especially with the likes of Jillian. You could point out that none of what she ranted about is true. There IS sex education in schools, there IS welfare for single mothers, there ARE free clinics out the wazoo available to low income people to obtain birth control and see to pre-natal health, there ARE facilities and charities available to low income mothers for education , job training, and child careand abortion IS legal. There are millions of dollars spent every year on these programs year after year after year. 'They' have everything on their agenda fulfilled and yet is STILL isn't enough, they would throw yet more of our money at it. It will never end, and society will never do enough to satisfy these people. Yet she'll sit there and harp about hypothetical situations as if they were reality. What the hell is she bitching about exactly?

 

[jillian]

But, I would ask you, if you stood with a sniper rifle on a hill outside Belsen in 1943, would you shoot the camp commander, or no?

Terrible analogy...and exactly the type of thing that enables the loons... .

My religion says such choices are a matter of conscience. I don't think anyone has the right to impose a different religious or moral belief. their views are neither mainstream nor acceptable.

Again, we don't find "middle ground" with islamic fundamentalists... why should we find "middle ground with these terrorists.

Roe v Wade balanced the right of an individual to control her own body against the right of the government to step in to save potential life...

that works for me.

They need to stay out of other people's bodies.

 

[jillian]

You're trying to use reason and common sense here which is something that is sadly lacking on the left side of the aisle, especially with the likes of Jillian. You could point out that none of what she ranted about is true. There IS sex education in schools, there IS welfare for single mothers, there ARE free clinics out the wazoo available to low income people to obtain birth control and see to pre-natal health, there ARE facilities and charities available to low income mothers for education , job training, and child careand abortion IS legal. There are millions of dollars spent every year on these programs year after year after year. 'They' have everything on their agenda fulfilled and yet is STILL isn't enough, they would throw yet more of our money at it. It will never end, and society will never do enough to satisfy these people. Yet she'll sit there and harp about hypothetical situations as if they were reality. What the hell is she bitching about exactly?

I know you're not very bright... but do you need to prove it with every post?

 

[Ravi]

Thanks for all the assists! I appreciate your research. These are exactly proving my point. The more disenfranchised people on that side of the debate get, more desperate they will act. In my view it is not good to have within a country a significant set of people who are feeling this way.

It isn't good when it's racial, as it has been in the past. It isn't good when it is political, as it has been in the past. And it isn't good when this is the issue. The results are predictable and consistent.

No no no no no no no no no no!

Cause these same wackos don't want sex ed, birth control, morning after pills, education funding or job training for single mothers, welfare for single mothers or anything else that allows babies to be cared for.

I know you don't think we should be giving muslim terrorists what they want from us to find a common ground.

These people are terrorists.... they need to keep their religion in their churches. Why on earth should anyone compromise their constitutional right to have government stay out of their body to pacify religious extremists?

I think you are indulging in a little "right play." Isn't that what you accuse the Bush of doing? Once you call someone a terrorist, half the battle is won, isn't it?

The difference is that you have to live and work with these people. They are part of your society. I'm not, by any means, saying give up abortion. That's not a compromise, that's a capitulation.

Come'on, you've negotiated plenty before, you can imagine what a compromise in this situation would look like. You give up late term, except in the most dire circumstances. Abortions, are in general, scaled back to only pre-viability. Etc. Etc.

I understand your point about the sex ed, welfare etc. I don't have any problem with it. I'm not sure that it works, but I'm not against it. Careful with my money though. We might have a tussle about that.

As far as the Constitutional right goes, I'm probably not the guy you want to talk to on that. I think Griswold is a big, steaming pile of shit. It's certainly no place to rest your right to an abortion. I'd feel much better about it if the states had granted the right.

You don't compromise with people that commit acts of terror, and you certainly don't ask women to do it, either.

 

[Newby]

You're trying to use reason and common sense here which is something that is sadly lacking on the left side of the aisle, especially with the likes of Jillian. You could point out that none of what she ranted about is true. There IS sex education in schools, there IS welfare for single mothers, there ARE free clinics out the wazoo available to low income people to obtain birth control and see to pre-natal health, there ARE facilities and charities available to low income mothers for education , job training, and child careand abortion IS legal. There are millions of dollars spent every year on these programs year after year after year. 'They' have everything on their agenda fulfilled and yet is STILL isn't enough, they would throw yet more of our money at it. It will never end, and society will never do enough to satisfy these people. Yet she'll sit there and harp about hypothetical situations as if they were reality. What the hell is she bitching about exactly?

I know you're not very bright... but do you need to prove it with every post?

Is that all you got? Can't comment on the content, eh? Not surprised in the least. Do you want to tell me where any of the things that you mentioned are not provided for in our society? Is the word 'responsibility' even in your dictionary? I suppose it doesn't matter since you wouldn't understand it anyway.

 

[Shogun]

You are treading on a dangerous path, Jill. You are setting up the left to battle over the first amendment and it's a loser. "these people" are Americans just like you are. They are not ALL out shooting abortion doctors. Those who do ARE taken care of according to our laws. Framing them ALL as terrorists devalues the application much like your knee jerk Scarlet A routine. If you'll notice, almost every major pro-life group condemned this killing. As they should and as we all expect. Trying to marginalize their political opinion about a highly contentious issue would only lead to burning off whatever social capital that tillers death gave to the pro-choice side.


But, I'll say it again.. It is time for a compromise on abortion. I don't care if you want to insist that pro-lifers (anyone who is not as blank check about abortions as you) are the north american taliban. Tiller's death didn't close the case on the rift on this issue. You WILL compromise or you WILL see another 30 years of this same type of extremist violence from both sides.

 

[Shogun]

No no no no no no no no no no!

Cause these same wackos don't want sex ed, birth control, morning after pills, education funding or job training for single mothers, welfare for single mothers or anything else that allows babies to be cared for.

I know you don't think we should be giving muslim terrorists what they want from us to find a common ground.

These people are terrorists.... they need to keep their religion in their churches. Why on earth should anyone compromise their constitutional right to have government stay out of their body to pacify religious extremists?

I think you are indulging in a little "right play." Isn't that what you accuse the Bush of doing? Once you call someone a terrorist, half the battle is won, isn't it?

The difference is that you have to live and work with these people. They are part of your society. I'm not, by any means, saying give up abortion. That's not a compromise, that's a capitulation.

Come'on, you've negotiated plenty before, you can imagine what a compromise in this situation would look like. You give up late term, except in the most dire circumstances. Abortions, are in general, scaled back to only pre-viability. Etc. Etc.

I understand your point about the sex ed, welfare etc. I don't have any problem with it. I'm not sure that it works, but I'm not against it. Careful with my money though. We might have a tussle about that.

As far as the Constitutional right goes, I'm probably not the guy you want to talk to on that. I think Griswold is a big, steaming pile of shit. It's certainly no place to rest your right to an abortion. I'd feel much better about it if the states had granted the right.

You don't compromise with people that commit acts of terror, and you certainly don't ask women to do it, either.

You are not monopolizing the values and perspective of ALL WOMEN. I hate to break it to you but pro-lifers aren't all bullish controlling men even if such rhetoric sounds good at the naral gala.

 

[WillowTree]

Oh no! That sharp tongue is at work again...

only half of it works.

 

[Ravi]

I think you are indulging in a little "right play." Isn't that what you accuse the Bush of doing? Once you call someone a terrorist, half the battle is won, isn't it?

The difference is that you have to live and work with these people. They are part of your society. I'm not, by any means, saying give up abortion. That's not a compromise, that's a capitulation.

Come'on, you've negotiated plenty before, you can imagine what a compromise in this situation would look like. You give up late term, except in the most dire circumstances. Abortions, are in general, scaled back to only pre-viability. Etc. Etc.

I understand your point about the sex ed, welfare etc. I don't have any problem with it. I'm not sure that it works, but I'm not against it. Careful with my money though. We might have a tussle about that.

As far as the Constitutional right goes, I'm probably not the guy you want to talk to on that. I think Griswold is a big, steaming pile of shit. It's certainly no place to rest your right to an abortion. I'd feel much better about it if the states had granted the right.

You don't compromise with people that commit acts of terror, and you certainly don't ask women to do it, either.

You are not monopolizing the values and perspective of ALL WOMEN. I hate to break it to you but pro-lifers aren't all bullish controlling men even if such rhetoric sounds good at the naral gala.

So you are for compromising with people that commit terrorist acts? This doesn't surprise me.

I've got news for you, dimwit. If you don't want to have an abortion you don't have to have one.