Afghanistan is impossible to conquer.

[Mushroom]

And the thing is, back in the 1970's, both Lebanon and Afghanistan were very modernized secular nations.

But decades of unrest and fighting caused all that to go away, just as it had in Lebanon. And the crazies ended up taking over. But by reminding them what they had in the decades before the chaos of invasion and lunatics fighting, the people would have had something to build upon, a goal to strive for in returning to what they had in the past.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The Afghan war was won and very quickly by a handful of special forces troops in conjunction with our Air Force.

We got bogged down there for 20 years because we allowed the taliban a safe haven right next door from whence they harassed and attacked us for all those long years.

The problem being Pakistan who played a double game. Not to forget they harbored bin laden.

Throughout history the area we call Afghanistan today was always relatively easy to conquer, but impossible for foreigners to hold. The area has NEVER had a powerful standing army or the material basis for creating one. However its unique geography, hundreds of major tribes and clans, different languages, unifying religion, lack of roads, these all made its mountain villages impossible for outsiders to conquer, and made long-term guerrilla war the norm.

The Taliban was not “defeated” by the Northern (tribal) Alliance backed by U.S. Special Forces. Rural Taliban soldiers just abandoned the cities and returned to the central and eastern mountain ranges they came from. Many just buried their weapons and awaited their next opportunity.

The idea that the Taliban could have been tracked down in the wilds of Pakistan and eradicated is INSANE, for many reasons. Most Pushtans — but certainly not most Pashtun Taliban — live in Pakistan, and any U.S. intervention there would have created tens of millions more determined enemies, and likely led to anarchy, insurrection or revolution in nuclear armed Pakistan.

The same problems I mentioned have also always made Afghanistan very difficult even for any native leader to govern. Although some progress was made in the 1960s and 1970s, these problems by no means disappeared. Outside of Kabul and a few other places, the ethnic and rural/town and tribal problems remained severe. The Monarchy was by no means deep rooted in this tribal society and any outside power trying to bring back a new King would have gotten nowhere. (Actually, the largest Parcham faction of the “Marxist” PDPA itself originally supported a “constitutional monarchy,” and after the Soviets invaded they eventually established their own supposed “Islamic Republic.”)

The new “Great Game” Cold War hostility between the USSR & USA is what doomed first the King and then Afghanistan as a whole. We armed the Mujaheddin jihadists from across the country (giving them “Stinger” missiles) and across the world (remember Osama Bin Laden) to fight against “communism”; then the rural religious Talaban overthrew the murderous and drug dealing warlord Mujahadin; and then we swept in to do our own “nation building.” Our own militarist “anti-insurgency” orientation soon discredited the Afghan politicians we supported, who appeared to be — and soon were — nothing but corrupt U.S. puppets.

 

[lennypartiv]

The only real examples in the last century of a successful transition almost always resulted form a strong dictator

Installing a strong dictator is a necessity in operations like this. Anything else won't work.

 

[Persuader]

Throughout history the area we call Afghanistan today was always relatively easy to conquer, but impossible for foreigners to hold. The area has NEVER had a powerful standing army or the material basis for creating one. However its unique geography, hundreds of major tribes and clans, different languages, unifying religion, lack of roads, these all made its mountain villages impossible for outsiders to conquer, and made long-term guerrilla war the norm.

The Taliban was not “defeated” by the Northern (tribal) Alliance backed by U.S. Special Forces. Rural Taliban soldiers just abandoned the cities and returned to the central and eastern mountain ranges they came from. Many just buried their weapons and awaited their next opportunity.

The idea that the Taliban could have been tracked down in the wilds of Pakistan and eradicated is INSANE, for many reasons. Most Pushtans — but certainly not most Pashtun Taliban — live in Pakistan, and any U.S. intervention there would have created tens of millions more determined enemies, and likely led to anarchy, insurrection or revolution in nuclear armed Pakistan.

The same problems I mentioned have also always made Afghanistan very difficult even for any native leader to govern. Although some progress was made in the 1960s and 1970s, these problems by no means disappeared. Outside of Kabul and a few other places, the ethnic and rural/town and tribal problems remained severe. The Monarchy was by no means deep rooted in this tribal society and any outside power trying to bring back a new King would have gotten nowhere. (Actually, the largest Parcham faction of the “Marxist” PDPA itself originally supported a “constitutional monarchy,” and after the Soviets invaded they eventually established their own supposed “Islamic Republic.”)

The new “Great Game” Cold War hostility between the USSR & USA is what doomed first the King and then Afghanistan as a whole. We armed the Mujaheddin jihadists from across the country (giving them “Stinger” missiles) and across the world (remember Osama Bin Laden) to fight against “communism”; then the rural religious Talaban overthrew the murderous and drug dealing warlord Mujahadin; and then we swept in to do our own “nation building.” Our own militarist “anti-insurgency” orientation soon discredited the Afghan politicians we supported, who appeared to be — and soon were — nothing but corrupt U.S. puppets.

Very flawed analysis.

Let me try and help you out. First of all the taliban in Afghanistan were defeated as in forced to run and hide.

Driven from the field of battle by a tremendous casualty rate.

Some went into hiding in Afghanistan with family members or in villages that were supportive of the Taliban.

More along with their leadership--Bin Laden and so forth fled to pakistan.

Bin Laden apologized to his men for the catastrophe he led them into.

The fact that Pakistan has nukes is irrelevant. We have a long standing agreement with Pakistan that if their Nukes are ever under threat from revolutionary forces that we will go in and remove the nukes.

Your notion of tens of millions of pushtans taking up arms against us is ridiculous.

We would not have had to eradicate all of the pushtans.

All we needed to do was to cause them enough pain to neuter them. The same methods we used in Afghanistan could have been used in the tribal lands with much effectiveness.

Special forces in close contact and collusion with our Air Force could have wrecked havoc on the taliban and their supporters in the tribal lands. After a month of such havoc they would have ceased all infiltration and attacks into Afghanistan to stop our assault on the Tribal Lands.

We never had any intention to conquer Afghanistan.

We maintained control of Afghanistan for 20 yrs. with very few boots on the ground and we could have continued to do so.

Our big mistake was to waste billions of dollars trying to make Afghanistan a democracy.

Unfortunately Trump wanted to end it. One of his biggest mistakes.

Though he would have done it in an organized manner without all the chaos we see now because the Biden regime underestimated the Talibans ability to take over very swiftly.

The big question now is will The Taliban allow the evacuation of all Americans or hold them or some of them as hostages?

A bigger question what will the biden regime do if the Taliban takes American Hostages or begins executing Americans.

A belief is taking hold among many that all this peaceful rhetoric we are getting from some of the taliban leadership is a hoax.

We will find out very soon if they live up to their word.

Another factor that should not be forgotten is there may be rogue elements in the Taliban that want to punish and or kill Americans who may not listen to their commanders.

 

[Persuader]

Installing a strong dictator is a necessity in operations like this. Anything else won't work.

Nonsense--All it required was a little commonsense and some planning.

Biden in his stupidity refused to follow Trumps plan.

The first thing that was needed was a list of all Americans in Afghanistan and where they resided.

As soon as it was decided that we were pulling out; all the Americans should have been notified and plans made to get them out as soon as possible.

American troops with reinforcements if needed should have been put in place to protect Kabul until all American private citizens were evacuated.

The American military then would leave after all other Americans had been evacuated.

House Armed Services Chair Smith: Biden Admin. 'Didn't Listen to the Intelligence' and 'Didn't Plan Better' on Afghanistan Withdrawal

On Thursday's broadcast of MSNBC's "Hallie Jackson Reports," House Armed Services Committee Chairman Adam Smith (D-WA) said "the Biden administration | Clips

www.breitbart.com

 

[whitehall]

Yeah right, Afghanistan was impossible to conquer during a republican administration. About 35% of democrats in congress including Biden authorized Bush to use ground Troops but they had no intention of ever letting Bush do the job they authorized. Barry Hussein had eight years to deal with Afghanistan with Joe Biden sitting on his lap but the political failure of Afghanistan was politically more advantageous at the time.

 

[Mushroom]

Installing a strong dictator is a necessity in operations like this. Anything else won't work.

Not always. Also a popular monarchy like that of Mohammed Zahir Shah can have the same effect. And first establish the Parliament as a guiding body under a Prime Minister who is strong, and over the years ease more and more power over to them.

In essence, recreating the history of the UK, but over a decade or two instead of hundreds of years. The restored Monarch gives them all a central figure to look to. And also gives the sense of continuity. And notice, that is also what Franco did towards the end. He knew he was dying, so restoring the House of Bourbon helped ease the country back to Democracy after decades of Dictatorship.

 

[Mushroom]

As soon as it was decided that we were pulling out; all the Americans should have been notified and plans made to get them out as soon as possible.

Maybe by playing Bing Crosby singing "White Christmas".

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Very flawed analysis.

Let me try and help you out…

Please don’t. You haven’t a clue.

Only a madman would then have tried to convince those Uzbek and Tadjik Northern Alliance soldiers to try to find, let alone root out — Pushtan Taliban supporters in the mountains and valleys of Pakistan’s wild Waziristan region! How many Americans do you think you can convince to wage war in Pakistan? How many do you think would return from a stroll into those mountains? Good luck trying to get hold of those Pakistani nukes! Why not just march your “Special Forces” into Xinjiang why you are at it?

 

[Persuader]

Please don’t. You haven’t a clue.

Only a madman would then have tried to convince those Uzbek and Tadjik Northern Alliance soldiers to try to find, let alone root out — Pushtan Taliban supporters in the mountains and valleys of Pakistan’s wild Waziristan region! How many Americans do you think you can convince to wage war in Pakistan? How many do you think would return from a stroll into those mountains? Good luck trying to get hold of those Pakistani nukes! Why not just march your “Special Forces” into Xinjiang why you are at it?

You attempt to distort what I said....I did not mention anything about Uzbek or Tadjik Northern Alliance soldiers being sent into Pakistan.

I was referring to U.S, Special forces and they were and are very capable of operating in the most difficult terrain and in conjunction with American Air power would have been capable of wrecking such havoc on the taliban that they would have pleaded for mercy.

American soldiers follow orders and would have gladly gone into those tribal areas to go after the scumbag terrorists --most especially back then when the memory of 9/11 was very strong.

For some reason you want to denigrate our Armed Forces; thus I wonder who you really support?

Again; The Pakistani nukes are irrelevant they dare not nuke India and they have no capability to nuke the USA thus your fixation on that is completely irrelevant.

And, as I told your ignorant ass before>>>>>>The Pentagon's Secret Plans to Secure Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal | Analysis | NTI

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Persuader, you seem to be absurdly ignorant about Afghan culture and West Pakistan. There are some 50 million Pashtun in Pakistan and they live in mountains, valleys and great cities too. Pashtun tribal groups and clans make up 25% of Pakistan’s population!

The Pakistan army and security services have long had deep links with the Afghan Taliban, who can disappear equally into the Afghan rural countryside and mountains, or Pakistan teeming cities, without leaving a trace. It took decades to track down one famous Arab terrorist, Bin Laden, hiding out in Pakistan right near a Pakistan army base! No Pakistan government could ever tolerate anything like what you are fantasizing about. If it did it would be overthrown by its own people or army.

Ordinary Pakistani Muslims do not exactly love the U.S. today. mainly because of the U.S. tilt towards India. Back during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, Pakistan was run by the fundamentalist General & President Zia, who deigned to work with the U.S. only because we gave him money and armed the Mujaheddin Islamic fundamentalists. His ISI directly coordinated with the CIA, the Mujahadin, with Osama bin Laden and with the Taliban.

You also show no knowledge whatever of the basic geography of the country. Most Afghan Taliban were Afghanis who lived in Afghanistan, although Pashtun traders for a thousand years traveled regularly back and forth to Pakistan. The whole importance of Afghanistan and its cities were that they were trading centers — which is why the Chinese “Belt & Road” is so important, and can help modernize the country if it should ever stabilize. The whole of Afghanistan is divided by the great Hindu-Kush mountain range, which was never under the effective control of Russians, Americans or of any other foreign conquerors.

 

[Persuader]

Persuader, you seem to be absurdly ignorant about Afghan culture and West Pakistan. There are some 50 million Pashtun in Pakistan and they live in mountains, valleys and great cities too. Pashtun tribal groups and clans make up 25% of Pakistan’s population!

The Pakistan army and ISI have long had deep links with the Afghan Taliban, who can disappear equally into the Afghan rural countryside and mountains, or Pakistan cities, without leaving a trace. It took decades to track down one famous terrorist, Bin Laden, hiding out in Pakistan right near a Pakistan army base! No Pakistan government could ever tolerate anything like what you are fantasizing about. If it did it would be overthrown by its own people or army.

Ordinary Pakistani Muslims do not exactly love the U.S. today. mainly because of the U.S. tilt towards India. Back during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, Pakistan under the fundamentalist General Zia worked with the U.S. because we gave him money and armed the Mujaheddin Islamic fundamentalists. His ISI directly coordinated with the CIA, the Mujahadin, with Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

You also show no knowledge whatever of the the basic geography of the country. Most Afghan Taliban were Afghanistan who lived in Afghanistan, though Pashtun traders for a thousand years have traveled back and forth to Pakistan. (The whole importance of Afghanistan and its cities were that they were trading centers — which is why the Chinese “Belt & Road” is so important and can help modernize the country if it should ever stabilize.) The whole of Afghanistan is divided by the great Hindu-Kush mountain range, which was NEVER under effective control of Russians, Americans or of any other foreign conquerors.

You are hung up on a WWII notion of conquering and holding territory...your thinking is thus outdated.

Warfare has advanced and particuarly special ops which you have little or no understanding of.

Also you are ignorant of the capabilities of our special ops force.

We maintained effective control of Afghanistan for 20 yrs. with very few boots on the ground and a very low casualty rate.

We did this with special ops, superior fire power, drones and our death dealing AirForce.

There was no good reason to pull out...but several good reasons to remain.

Why Trump suddenly began to advocate we pull out is a mystery and a mistake on his part.

Not to mention you fail to grasp the importance of our failure to get an alliance with India in regards to Pakistan.

India being an enemy of the muslims and the CHICOMS would have been a natural ally for us. The state dept. riddled with liberals, socialists and marxists chose to ally with Pakistan which was a big mistake.

India Needs To Strategically Engage With Taliban: Geopolitics Expert Seshadri Chari

India Needs To Strategically Engage With Taliban: Geopolitics Expert Seshadri Chari

www.outlookindia.com

 

[Dayton3]

In the book "A Quick and Dirty Guide To War", wargamer and military historian James F. Dunnigan put it "Afghanistan like Sudan in Africa is the big nowhere that leads to everywhere".

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Local Taliban groups for the last 15 years were receiving billions in bribes every year from the government, from generals, from contractors, from warlords, from local city administrations — all flush with American cash — which was a very big reason the corrupt government was tolerated at all. It was all a “House of Cards,” as the recent collapse of the gov’t army showed. The “Special Ops” — far from “winning the war” — were increasing hatred toward the Americans and the puppet government (especially in rural areas), as President Karzai repeatedly told the Americans, to no avail.

 

[Persuader]

The History of the Taliban:

History of the Taliban

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

One of the more intelligent things Trump did, and a main reason he was elected, was that he sounded like he meant it when he said he wanted to end the “endless wars” we were fighting. He said he would end the war in Afghanistan (so did Bush and Obama of course) and millions of Americans believed him.

I’m glad Trump started a major drawdown that at long last gave “political cover” for Biden to end that pointless military adventure, where we spent a trillion dollars and predictably ended up again humiliating ourselves — at the expense of the Afghan people. Unfortunately the warmongerers among us are still plentiful and the MIC and “deep security state” lobby remains very powerful. It seems the American public, lost in petty partisan factionalism, has learned nothing.