AGW: atmospheric physics

[SSDD]

The Second Law of Thermodynamics IS NOT an absolute law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Care to prove that?

It is a statistical law --- it is a law of large numbers !!!!!!!!!

I don't see anything about statistics in the law. I see a statement made in absolute terms. Statistical statements re not made in absolute terms. You must be mistaken.

This was proven rigorously in about 1890 by Henri Poincaré in the justly famous Poincaré Recurrence Theorem, which essentially says that in any closed dynamical system, any state of the system will recur infinitely often (within epsilon of its original state, of course) -- given enough time.

Guess you are unaware that the earth and atmosphere are an open system.

I am not saying that SSDD should imitate Boltzmann (after all, SSDD does not resemble the great man in any respect), but he should go to the privacy of his own home and give himself a couple of good, vigorous slaps in the face for being such an ignorant, obstinant conceited fool !!!
.

Nah...I am quite satisfied slapping you around and watching you remain unable to provide even the smallest bit of observed, measured evidence that there is a two way net flow of energy between warm and cool objects. It is good to have faith, but misplaced faith is quite tragic. I am sorry for you.

 

[numan]

An electron is energy... as I understand, the smallest discrete bit of energy possible of electromagnetic radiation.

Another bit of ga-ga incoherence from one whose Dummheit the Gods themselves struggle in vain to correct!! It never ends! It just goes on and on and on!!

Surely no one who was not raised on a garbage dump in Calcutta could oink such total ignorance of basic physics!

An electron is not a photon! A photon is not an electron! One is ponderable matter! The other is imponderable radiation! One is a half-spin fermion, obeying Fermi-Dirac statistics; the other is an integer-spin boson, obeying Bose-Einstein statistics!

I swear that I could not dream up such total mental chaos as vomits in every utterance that this foolish, foolish man comes up with!!
.

 

[westwall]

I repeat:

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow....
Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object....

The second law is a statement made in absolute terms. There is no wiggle room there and anyone claiming any wiggle room whatsoever is claiming that the second law of thermodynamics is wrong. If there were wiggle room there, I believe the law would have been written as such...but then it wouldn't be a law, would it?

I have had it up to here with SSDD's unutterably stupid pronouncements on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!

It is bad enough when someone is ignorant and stupid and wastes one's time; it is bad enough when someone crows with arrogant certitude about something he does not understand. But when someone is ignorant and an arrogant fool, it is doubly insupportable!!

The Second Law of Thermodynamics IS NOT an absolute law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a statistical law --- it is a law of large numbers !!!!!!!!!

It is quite in accord with the 2nd Law that all the air in the room rush to a corner of the room in a blazing ball, leaving you to gasp away your life in a vacuum like a fish out of water !!!!

It is quite in accord with the 2nd Law that you should pour yourself a glass of water and suddenly have half the water turn into a block of ice, while the other half starts boiling !!!!

It is very unlikely that either of these things should happen -- unlikely beyond the ability of the average person to conceive, but there is a small probability that either will occur, and, given enough time, it is virtually certain that both will occur !!

This was proven rigorously in about 1890 by Henri Poincaré in the justly famous Poincaré Recurrence Theorem, which essentially says that in any closed dynamical system, any state of the system will recur infinitely often (within epsilon of its original state, of course) -- given enough time.

It is an urban legend among the cognoscenti that when Ludwig Boltzmann, the founder of modern thermodynamics, read Poincaré's proof, he went home and killed himself.

I am not saying that SSDD should imitate Boltzmann (after all, SSDD does not resemble the great man in any respect), but he should go to the privacy of his own home and give himself a couple of good, vigorous slaps in the face for being such an ignorant, obstinant conceited fool !!!
.

So, you're telling us that a perpetual motion machine IS possible. Right?

 

[numan]

So, you're telling us that a perpetual motion machine IS possible. Right?

And YOU are another total ignoramus who cannot even distinguish the First Law of Thermodynamics from the Second Law !!
.

 

[numan]

The Second Law of Thermodynamics IS NOT an absolute law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Care to prove that?

Read the damn article on the Poincaré Recurrence Theorem, you mindless dork!!

Guess you are unaware that the earth and atmosphere are an open system.

That has nothing to do with the 2nd Law being a statistical law, not an absolute law, you fool.

I think it is clearer and clearer that what I wrote on the following thread :

http://www.usmessageboard.com/scien...ternet-psychology-experiment.html#post7111614

is true.

You are not a human being -- you are just a Turing machine in some stupid experiment.
.

 

[mamooth]

Putting statistics aside

You can't put statistics aside. That's the point. The 2nd Law is a law of statistical probability. If you put statistics aside, you get it wrong.

Is it the mamooth contention that the 2d Law of Thermodynamics says that SOMETIMES energy naturally flows from the cooler object to the warmer object?

Nope. At least on the macro scale, total energy flow has to be from hot to cold, as the 2nd Law says.

Backradiation doesn't violate that in any way. With backradiation, total energy flow is still always from hot to cold. It flows more slowly from hot to cold, but that's still entirely in compliance with the 2nd Law.

The 2nd Law is a Statement of Probability, just like describing die rolls. Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in. It is not a magical mystical force that intelligently micromanages individual atoms. It's not anything. It's just a description of the universe. Descriptions don't cause anything, they just describe.

For any atomic-level event, both hot-to-cold and cold-to-hot are possibilities, However, the hot-to-cold type is more probable. Therefore, if you sum together the results of a gazillion atoms/photons, hot-to-cold must always predominate. On the macro scale, the 2nd law is always obeyed. On the level of single atoms and photons, the 2nd Law doesn't exist.

Oh, as an aside, one can hit molecules with lasers to make them ... colder.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=4146

That apparently violates the 2nd Law as well, yet it clearly happens. Down at the quantum level, the 2nd Law just doesn't hold any more.

 

[numan]

Putting statistics aside

You can't put statistics aside. That's the point. The 2nd Law is a law of statistical probability. If you put statistics aside, you get it wrong.

You are quite correct.

The 2nd Law is a Statement of Probability, just like describing die rolls. Repeat that to yourself until it sinks in. It is not a magical mystical force that intelligently micromanages individual atoms....

Therefore, if you sum together the results of a gazillion atoms/photons, hot-to-cold must always predominate. On the macro scale, the 2nd law is always obeyed. On the level of single atoms and photons, the 2nd Law doesn't exist.

Oh, as an aside, one can hit molecules with lasers to make them ... colder.

Laser Cooling Puts the Freeze on Fast-Moving Atoms | SpaceRef - Your Space Reference

That apparently violates the 2nd Law as well, yet it clearly happens. Down at the quantum level, the 2nd Law just doesn't hold any more.

Very good, but...

"hot-to-cold must ALMOST always predominate. On the macro scale, the 2nd Law is ALMOST always obeyed."

· · · the Poincaré Recurrence Theorem
.

 

[mamooth]

· · · the Poincaré Recurrence Theorem.

I feel fairly comfortable leaving that out, as the time between such recurrences would generally be longer than the age of the universe.

 

[westwall]

So, you're telling us that a perpetual motion machine IS possible. Right?

And YOU are another total ignoramus who cannot even distinguish the First Law of Thermodynamics from the Second Law !!
.

Well, I came from the cell that you occupy of course....DUUUUUUUHHHHHH

 

[SSDD]

An electron is energy... as I understand, the smallest discrete bit of energy possible of electromagnetic radiation.

Another bit of ga-ga incoherence from one whose Dummheit the Gods themselves struggle in vain to correct!! It never ends! It just goes on and on and on!!

I am sure that anyone who is capable of reading for comprehension would have caught the mistype. Have I perhaps made any punctuation errors? Care to do a spell check on me?

Your frustration and extreme agitation at not being able to support your beliefs with any actual observable measurable evidence is showing. Perhpas next time you join a cult, you will check into what they believe a bit more carefully.

 

[SSDD]

Read the damn article on the Poincaré Recurrence Theorem, you mindless dork!!

And what "proof" do you believe is there? Maybe you are in the same league as siagon where anyting that you believe constitutes proof.

That has nothing to do with the 2nd Law being a statistical law, not an absolute law, you fool.

So why point out claims about a closed system? Your frustration at failing to prove your point is becoming more pronounced. Calling names is a sure sign that you are losing a discussion.

 

[SSDD]

Nope. At least on the macro scale, total energy flow has to be from hot to cold, as the 2nd Law says.

Reading problems? The second law doesn't say a thing about two way net energy flows. It says that heat and energy only move in one direction.

Backradiation doesn't violate that in any way.

Backradiation doesn't exist.

he 2nd Law is a Statement of Probability, just like describing die rolls.

Statistical statements are not written in absolute terms...the second law, on the other hand is.

 

[SSDD]

You are quite correct.

Actually, he couldn't be more wrong. What sort of statement of statistical probablity is written in absolute terms?

 

[petro]

Really tough to give a shit about so called global warming as I watch 8" of snow fall in the middle of fucking April.
Is the climate changing? Possibly. The climate on the planet has changed many times though-out its 4 billion year history. Man made? Remains to be seen. However, I will not be lectured by the likes of Al Gore on my use of carbons as he burns more carbons heating his mansion than I could burn in 10 years. Average yearly utility cost for Gore hovers around 30K per year. That hypocrite can kiss my ass.

Neither should we strangle our economy by imposing fees for carbon emissions while the Chinese and other developing countries ignore their emissions and take up the slack.

Now enough about that, going to spray some CFC's out in the backyard to help the process along. It's fucking cold outside.

 

[gslack]

I repeat:

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow....
Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object....

The second law is a statement made in absolute terms. There is no wiggle room there and anyone claiming any wiggle room whatsoever is claiming that the second law of thermodynamics is wrong. If there were wiggle room there, I believe the law would have been written as such...but then it wouldn't be a law, would it?

I have had it up to here with SSDD's unutterably stupid pronouncements on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!

It is bad enough when someone is ignorant and stupid and wastes one's time; it is bad enough when someone crows with arrogant certitude about something he does not understand. But when someone is ignorant and an arrogant fool, it is doubly insupportable!!

The Second Law of Thermodynamics IS NOT an absolute law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a statistical law --- it is a law of large numbers !!!!!!!!!

It is quite in accord with the 2nd Law that all the air in the room rush to a corner of the room in a blazing ball, leaving you to gasp away your life in a vacuum like a fish out of water !!!!

It is quite in accord with the 2nd Law that you should pour yourself a glass of water and suddenly have half the water turn into a block of ice, while the other half starts boiling !!!!

It is very unlikely that either of these things should happen -- unlikely beyond the ability of the average person to conceive, but there is a small probability that either will occur, and, given enough time, it is virtually certain that both will occur !!

This was proven rigorously in about 1890 by Henri Poincaré in the justly famous Poincaré Recurrence Theorem, which essentially says that in any closed dynamical system, any state of the system will recur infinitely often (within epsilon of its original state, of course) -- given enough time.

It is an urban legend among the cognoscenti that when Ludwig Boltzmann, the founder of modern thermodynamics, read Poincaré's proof, he went home and killed himself.

I am not saying that SSDD should imitate Boltzmann (after all, SSDD does not resemble the great man in any respect), but he should go to the privacy of his own home and give himself a couple of good, vigorous slaps in the face for being such an ignorant, obstinant conceited fool !!!
.

Okay I for one have had enough... Seriously numan, you and your sock have butchered science enough now...

Your claim of the 2nd law being a statistical law comes from Boltzmann's explanation of it relating to entropy as mass disorder. For example you take a deck of cards and shuffle them enough they will eventually return to the state they started...

From wikki...

"The second law, he argued, was thus simply the result of the fact that in a world of mechanically colliding particles disordered states are the most probable. Because there are so many more possible disordered states than ordered ones, a system will almost always be found either in the state of maximum disorder – the macrostate with the greatest number of accessible microstates such as a gas in a box at equilibrium – or moving towards it. A dynamically ordered state, one with molecules moving "at the same speed and in the same direction," Boltzmann concluded, is thus "the most improbable case conceivable...an infinitely improbable configuration of energy."[17]

This was his intention, when he spoke of it being one of statistics, nowhere does he say anything about the second law specifically being about averages or net flows. He uses ONE example regarding disorder and probabilities and you two idiots shout "Eureka" and think you have it all figured out....

One word... PUH LEASE!!!!

You 3 imbeciles do not understand enough of the big picture on this to be coherent. You see a miscellaneous quote from Botlzmann and think it's a statement of fact about the second law in general. When in reality it was a statement only made to explain one aspect the use in statistics and averages regarding chaos and order in a given closed system. It did not dispute entropy, or any previous claims about the second law...

Seriously now, I'm tired of seeing your bullshit posts and condescension. You just spent a whole thread proclaiming yourself king genius, and insulting everyone else here, save for your socks, and the truths is you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...

Genius? HA!, My 11th grade son just pointed out your BS to me... He took one look at the claims you and admiral socko have been repeating and knew exactly where you got it,and what it really covered....

Yeah he's a smart kid, going to be an engineer or at least that's his plan. He was the youngest kid in the talented and gifted program here at one time. IQ around 160 or so they tell me. He sees your BS for the nonsense it is, keeps me from making a fool of myself on here, and is my consultant when you numans and sockos go insane claiming you can make 2x the energy from 1x the energy with a trace gas...

Now if you want to continue playing super-genius, start using the quotes fairly and as intended boys. We have a 17 yr old with a higher IQ and eager to show off his brain power by slapping fake admirals, and BS scientists...

 

[gslack]

Here a simple chart for the super-genius admirals...

 

[numan]

'
Well, the pretend-human Turing machines are going berserk vomiting forth their mindless absurdities.

I suppose they are programmed to do that once their cover is blown.
.

 

[gslack]

'
Well, the pretend-human Turing machines are going berserk vomiting forth their mindless absurdities.

I suppose they are are programmed to do that once their cover is blown.
.

Mindless absurdities?

You get a thesaurus?

No cover to blow shitheel, unless you meant your little clone? yeah shame about that... Sad really...

I see you don't understand the graphic...Sorry, tried to find one in crayon for you but no such luck..

 

[Saigon]

Gslacks -

Have you noticed that at least two of the posters you accuse of being mindless clones are posters who do not accept AGW?

The reason people are lining up to attack you is not because of your beliefs or politics - it is because your posting is childish and illiterate.

 

[gslack]

Gslacks -

Have you noticed that at least two of the posters you accuse of being mindless clones are posters who do not accept AGW?

The reason people are lining up to attack you is not because of your beliefs or politics - it is because your posting is childish and illiterate.

LOL, well let's see here.... We have you, and numan, and mamooth... A fake scientist, a fake nuke school graduate who happened to be an officer or not really not sure on that yet, and you a sock and weasel who can't use the quote feature...

I'm crushed really... You guys opinion of me means so, so much, it really does....

ROFL!!!!!!

Reality check toad... None of you 3 or lets be honest one of you, are capable of honesty in any form here, intellectual or otherwise. There isn't an ethical bone in the lot of you, or one of you, whatever the case may be..

You and various personas have deliberately misrepresented science, misrepresented others posts, and insulted and condescended upon any one who speaks against your cabal of BS...

So what are you this time? A rocket scientist? A physicist? President of the United states?What will you be next time?

You are an internet wannabe expert, nothing more. You come in, make a bold claim, and when it is disputed you claim some higher station, education, or intellect and put on airs of superiority, "Airs" that you and socks cannot justify by any behavior shown here...

So I am not liked by you and your army of one or three? LOL, good. I am doing well then...