All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss

[flacaltenn]

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel..

That is because a State can not compel non-citizens to its own laws. A State can't force its own laws upon non-citizens. (That would be an egregious breech of human rights, wouldn't you agree?!)

In Area C, Israeli citizens can avail themselves of the protection of the State of Israel as Israeli citizens and are compelled to follow Israeli law. Citizens of Palestine are under a complex set of laws including: Palestinian law, Jordanian law, pre-existing Ottoman law and military law of the State legally in control of the territory for concerns of security and safety according to treaties. In other words, Israeli citizens are governed by Israeli law and Palestinian citizens are governed by Palestinian/Jordanian/Ottoman law and security under military law.

But somehow, in your rush to demonize Israel, you not only ignore current norms of international law, you attempt to suggest that Israel is somehow to be vilified for following this norm.

Yeah, there are two different systems of justice in Area C -- because there are two different groups of citizens in Area C. It would be wrong to impose one system on both peoples.

In other words, Israeli citizens are governed by Israeli law and Palestinian citizens are governed by Palestinian/Jordanian/Ottoman law and security under military law.

Israel is a law free zone. It is the wild west of the Middle East. An occupying power should enforce local (Palestinian) law.

Settlers destroy and steal property. They assault or kill Palestinians. Is this legal under Israeli or Palestinian law? I don't think so. Israeli forces stand around and watch while PA forces are forbidden to act.

Israel enforces its own law over the Palestinian law even in area A. All political parties in Palestine (Fatah, Hamas, PFLP, etc.) are constitutionally protected. Yet Israel will go into Area A and kidnap people for nothing more than party affiliation.

Law in Israel, even international law, is meaningless.

Why should Israel be tasked with law enforcement in the
“country of Pal’istan”

Those are the rules of occupation. Occupations are requires to provide security and order in occupied territories.

And Israel does provide the bulk of security for those areas. The PA collects its OWN taxes. Although the majority of that is collected by Israel on behalf of the PA thru border customs which Israel ALSO provides.

One of the largest sources of income to the Palestinians is tax on the money earned by largely SKILLED workers who commute to Israel to work.

Israel is FAR from lawless as you claim. Your problem is that Palis do NOT WISH to be subject to Israeli law and courts. So the military provides a less comprehensive set of rules for security and enforcement.

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is something anti-Israelers don’t discuss and I am surprised they don’t. Rather than the hyperbole of non existent genocide and Gaza concentration camps how about focusing on the real injustices?

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel.. Guess which one has far more rights, especially for minors?

Do West Bank Israelis, Palestinians live under different set of laws?

How many Palestinians WANT to live under Israeli law and jurisdiction? Answer is -- a small minority. So why is it an issue? Can't force them to accept Israeli sovereignty or law so work to get them WHAT THEY WANT. Which is autonomy of SOME form with their own security and justice.

Seems a waste of time to call this apartheid or bias when it's really not..
Need to SUPPORT solutions to getting some autonomy for the Palis both within Israel and in the WORSE conditions elsewhere.

How many Palestinians want ti live under MILITARY LAW? How about ONE SET of laws for all in that one area? Put them ALL under military law.

Nobody wants live under military law. That's why they need to form a RESPONSIBLE govt. One that isn't focused on pushing Israelis into the sea. They HAD a functioning police force during the high point of the PA. And you know how that ended.

Put them all (WHO????) under military law.. Any Israelis in the occupied territories must ALREADY comply with the Security forces there. Not Israels fault that the settlers have easier access to borders and checkpoints.
In fact, Palis with work visas for daily jobs in Israel get a priority at the checkpoints.

 

[flacaltenn]

Israel still recognizes the PA as a governing body. Collects duties and customs for them. Allows a LARGE NUMBER of Palis work visas for daily skilled work within Israel -- which is a LARGE fraction of the PA GDP.

Only thing stopping self-governance in the West Bank and Gaza are the Palis fighting amongst themselves. The PA has a harder time with GAZA than Israel sometimes has. They need a form of governance that does not REQUIRE a "nation consensus" or powerful central govt. Like the City State concept. Their lives would be GREATLY improved under very LOCAL control of their own security, law and commerce.

Coyote

 

[Coyote]

Here is something anti-Israelers don’t discuss and I am surprised they don’t. Rather than the hyperbole of non existent genocide and Gaza concentration camps how about focusing on the real injustices?

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel.. Guess which one has far more rights, especially for minors?

Do West Bank Israelis, Palestinians live under different set of laws?

How many Palestinians WANT to live under Israeli law and jurisdiction? Answer is -- a small minority. So why is it an issue? Can't force them to accept Israeli sovereignty or law so work to get them WHAT THEY WANT. Which is autonomy of SOME form with their own security and justice.

Seems a waste of time to call this apartheid or bias when it's really not..
Need to SUPPORT solutions to getting some autonomy for the Palis both within Israel and in the WORSE conditions elsewhere.

How many Palestinians want ti live under MILITARY LAW? How about ONE SET of laws for all in that one area? Put them ALL under military law.

Nobody wants live under military law. That's why they need to form a RESPONSIBLE govt. One that isn't focused on pushing Israelis into the sea. They HAD a functioning police force during the high point of the PA. And you know how that ended.

Put them all (WHO????) under military law.. Any Israelis in the occupied territories must ALREADY comply with the Security forces there. Not Israels fault that the settlers have easier access to borders and checkpoints.
In fact, Palis with work visas for daily jobs in Israel get a priority at the checkpoints.

That is not the point at all. That is not what I am talking about.

Military law was installed shortly after Israel took those territories. In theory it everyone there. There are significant differences in terms of rights and results.

The Military Courts
It should also be emphasized that although the security legislation empowers the courts in the West Bank to try any person who commits an offense within their area or jurisdiction, in practice the military courts deal solely with cases relating to Palestinian residents. All cases involving settlers who have committed criminal and/or security offenses in the West Bank are brought before the civilian courts within the State of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel..

That is because a State can not compel non-citizens to its own laws. A State can't force its own laws upon non-citizens. (That would be an egregious breech of human rights, wouldn't you agree?!)

In Area C, Israeli citizens can avail themselves of the protection of the State of Israel as Israeli citizens and are compelled to follow Israeli law. Citizens of Palestine are under a complex set of laws including: Palestinian law, Jordanian law, pre-existing Ottoman law and military law of the State legally in control of the territory for concerns of security and safety according to treaties. In other words, Israeli citizens are governed by Israeli law and Palestinian citizens are governed by Palestinian/Jordanian/Ottoman law and security under military law.

But somehow, in your rush to demonize Israel, you not only ignore current norms of international law, you attempt to suggest that Israel is somehow to be vilified for following this norm.

Yeah, there are two different systems of justice in Area C -- because there are two different groups of citizens in Area C. It would be wrong to impose one system on both peoples.

Then shouldnt Palestinians have the right to avail themselves of Palestinian law for the same types of crimes Israeli's have that get prosecuted under Israeli civil law.

I agree with everything Rocco and flacaltenn have already stated on the matter.

Israel is, by treaty, in control of the area. Why would Israel treat its own citizens under military law? What is the point or purpose of military law? How is it different from civil law? And why?

 

[Coyote]

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel..

That is because a State can not compel non-citizens to its own laws. A State can't force its own laws upon non-citizens. (That would be an egregious breech of human rights, wouldn't you agree?!)

In Area C, Israeli citizens can avail themselves of the protection of the State of Israel as Israeli citizens and are compelled to follow Israeli law. Citizens of Palestine are under a complex set of laws including: Palestinian law, Jordanian law, pre-existing Ottoman law and military law of the State legally in control of the territory for concerns of security and safety according to treaties. In other words, Israeli citizens are governed by Israeli law and Palestinian citizens are governed by Palestinian/Jordanian/Ottoman law and security under military law.

But somehow, in your rush to demonize Israel, you not only ignore current norms of international law, you attempt to suggest that Israel is somehow to be vilified for following this norm.

Yeah, there are two different systems of justice in Area C -- because there are two different groups of citizens in Area C. It would be wrong to impose one system on both peoples.

Then shouldnt Palestinians have the right to avail themselves of Palestinian law for the same types of crimes Israeli's have that get prosecuted under Israeli civil law.

I agree with everything Rocco and flacaltenn have already stated on the matter.

Israel is, by treaty, in control of the area. Why would Israel treat its own citizens under military law? What is the point or purpose of military law? How is it different from civil law? And why?

I already posted a link with the differences.

Israel may be in control of it but it is not part of Israel. It’s citizens are OUTSIDE of Israel.

Why should not everyone be under the same system of law? Is it acceptable to have one system of law for one group and a harsher one for the other?

 

[Coyote]

From the link I posted to previously:

The military courts system

Together with the army and the Civil Administration, the military courts system is the third mechanism by which the State of Israel, as the occupying power, imposes its rule over the Palestinian population in the West Bank. The Oslo Accords established three “areas” in the West Bank. In Area C, Israel holds civilian and security control; in Area B, Israel holds security control while the Palestinian Authority holds civilian control; and in Area A, the Palestinian Authority holds civilian and security control. Despite this, however, the accords stated that the Israeli military courts are also empowered to try any person who committed an offense in Area A, if the offense injured or was intended to injure the security of the West Bank as a whole. This is consistent with the powers granted to the military courts in accordance with the Order regarding Security Provisions (Judea and Samaria) (No. 1651), 5770-2009) (hereinafter: “the Order regarding Security Provisions.”) In practice, therefore, the authority of the military courts extends over any Palestinian resident suspected of involvement in any offense that injures security.


Now I can understand the use of military law where security is an issue though I suspect the definition gets stretched. Stone throwing often falls into that category...when the thrower is a Palestinian. But if the thrower is Jewish...where does his case get adjucated.

Do West Bank Israelis, Palestinians live under different set of laws?


The firebombing of a Palestinian burning and killing most of the family inside is well known and horrific. It certainly can be argued to be a security issue. Did those youths go under civil or military law?

 

[Shusha]

Israel may be in control of it but it is not part of Israel. It’s citizens are OUTSIDE of Israel.

Why should not everyone be under the same system of law? Is it acceptable to have one system of law for one group and a harsher one for the other?

Israel has every right by treaty to control that area in all ways. (And I disagree, those citizens are NOT outside Israel but you should already know the reasons for that if you've followed me at all. And should know all the reasons why my legal argument is a valid one.)

And it is absolutely acceptable to have one system of law for one group and one for another. Canadians, as an example, have the benefit of a whole bunch of laws which Americans may not avail themselves of. Why? Because Canadians developed a set of laws compatible with their values and beliefs and those laws apply only to Canadian citizens. That's how sovereignty works. That's the POINT of sovereignty.

You are trying to make this about territory. Its not about territory. Its about sovereignty.

 

[Coyote]

Israel may be in control of it but it is not part of Israel. It’s citizens are OUTSIDE of Israel.

Why should not everyone be under the same system of law? Is it acceptable to have one system of law for one group and a harsher one for the other?

Israel has every right by treaty to control that area in all ways. (And I disagree, those citizens are NOT outside Israel but you should already know the reasons for that if you've followed me at all. And should know all the reasons why my legal argument is a valid one.)

And it is absolutely acceptable to have one system of law for one group and one for another. Canadians, as an example, have the benefit of a whole bunch of laws which Americans may not avail themselves of. Why? Because Canadians developed a set of laws compatible with their values and beliefs and those laws apply only to Canadian citizens. That's how sovereignty works. That's the POINT of sovereignty.

You are trying to make this about territory. Its not about territory. Its about sovereignty.

No. I am making it about justice. If indeed IsraelI sovereignty is all that matters than that lends creedance to those who make comparisons to apartheid. Two different systems of laws and rights for people in the same place.

 

[Shusha]

No. I am making it about justice. If indeed IsraelI sovereignty is all that matters than that lends creedance to those who make comparisons to apartheid. Two different systems of laws and rights for people in the same place.

Would the Tamimi family agree that it is "just" to force them to live under Israeli sovereignty and Israeli law? How is that justice? Two different systems of laws and rights for two different peoples, each with their own degree of sovereignty and self-determination. That seems FAR more just to me than forcing people to comply with an alien law.

Its not the place that matters -- its the sovereignty of the people. Each people under the sovereignty of their people. How is that not just? Who cares if they live in the same place?

BUT the responsibility for security lies (temporarily) with only one people (Israel) and justly so. The one side DOESN'T THINK THE OTHER HAS A RIGHT TO LIFE AND PAYS ITS PEOPLE TO MURDER INNOCENTS.

 

[Coyote]

No. I am making it about justice. If indeed IsraelI sovereignty is all that matters than that lends creedance to those who make comparisons to apartheid. Two different systems of laws and rights for people in the same place.

Would the Tamimi family agree that it is "just" to force them to live under Israeli sovereignty and Israeli law? How is that justice? Two different systems of laws and rights for two different peoples, each with their own degree of sovereignty and self-determination. That seems FAR more just to me than forcing people to comply with an alien law.

Its not the place that matters -- its the sovereignty of the people. Each people under the sovereignty of their people. How is that not just? Who cares if they live in the same place?

BUT the responsibility for security lies (temporarily) with only one people (Israel) and justly so. The one side DOESN'T THINK THE OTHER HAS A RIGHT TO LIFE AND PAYS ITS PEOPLE TO MURDER INNOCENTS.

How about giving them a choice rather than FORCING them to go under the military system?

 

[Shusha]

How about giving them a choice rather than FORCING them to go under the military system?

What makes you think they don't have a choice?

 

[Coyote]

How about giving them a choice rather than FORCING them to go under the military system?

What makes you think they don't have a choice?

If they do, show me.

 

[rylah]

I don't think the link proves the title, it's more about a funny trick when anyone who lies ceases to be a Muslim for that moment. There's no clear commandment not to lie, and actually a known religious term for specifically lying for political goals, or the goals of Jihad.

all religions have a loophole for lying.

Show me one in Judaism.

When is it Permitted to Tell a Lie? - OU Torah

All religions have them...to preserve lives, etc.

Ok, for peace in the family, what's etcetera?

Generally saving life, peace in the family is an etc.

Why are You not being specific?
Let's compare it to Islam.

 

[Shusha]

How about giving them a choice rather than FORCING them to go under the military system?

What makes you think they don't have a choice?

If they do, show me.

The Arab people in Area C and in Gaza have a choice every day whether to "make peaceful protest" cough, cough, cough or to actually make peace.

 

[Coyote]

How about giving them a choice rather than FORCING them to go under the military system?

What makes you think they don't have a choice?

If they do, show me.

The Arab people in Area C and in Gaza have a choice every day whether to "make peaceful protest" cough, cough, cough or to actually make peace.

Cop out.

 

[rylah]

all religions have a loophole for lying.

Show me one in Judaism.

When is it Permitted to Tell a Lie? - OU Torah

All religions have them...to preserve lives, etc.

Ok, for peace in the family, what's etcetera?

Generally saving life, peace in the family is an etc.

Why are You not being specific?
Let's compare it to Islam.

Jewish law "loophole" for a lie is called "change for peace":

It is commanded when one can bring peace between 2 people.
It is allowed to pretend You know little Torah when studying
It is allowed to keep modesty or prevent shame
It is allowed when describing a guest
It is allowed when someone is mourning to "steal their" mind from the moment

It is forbidden when it hurts a person
It is forbidden if You know lying to either side won't make a change.
It is forbidden to further one's religion
It is forbidden to forsake oaths

Q.What is the framework of Islam regarding use of lies and oaths?

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is something anti-Israelers don’t discuss and I am surprised they don’t. Rather than the hyperbole of non existent genocide and Gaza concentration camps how about focusing on the real injustices?

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel.. Guess which one has far more rights, especially for minors?

Do West Bank Israelis, Palestinians live under different set of laws?

How many Palestinians WANT to live under Israeli law and jurisdiction? Answer is -- a small minority. So why is it an issue? Can't force them to accept Israeli sovereignty or law so work to get them WHAT THEY WANT. Which is autonomy of SOME form with their own security and justice.

Seems a waste of time to call this apartheid or bias when it's really not..
Need to SUPPORT solutions to getting some autonomy for the Palis both within Israel and in the WORSE conditions elsewhere.

How many Palestinians want ti live under MILITARY LAW? How about ONE SET of laws for all in that one area? Put them ALL under military law.

Nobody wants live under military law. That's why they need to form a RESPONSIBLE govt. One that isn't focused on pushing Israelis into the sea. They HAD a functioning police force during the high point of the PA. And you know how that ended.

Put them all (WHO????) under military law.. Any Israelis in the occupied territories must ALREADY comply with the Security forces there. Not Israels fault that the settlers have easier access to borders and checkpoints.
In fact, Palis with work visas for daily jobs in Israel get a priority at the checkpoints.

That is not the point at all. That is not what I am talking about.

Military law was installed shortly after Israel took those territories. In theory it everyone there. There are significant differences in terms of rights and results.

The Military Courts
It should also be emphasized that although the security legislation empowers the courts in the West Bank to try any person who commits an offense within their area or jurisdiction, in practice the military courts deal solely with cases relating to Palestinian residents. All cases involving settlers who have committed criminal and/or security offenses in the West Bank are brought before the civilian courts within the State of Israel.

Because they are citizens of Israel.. Can't help you with that. All THEIR property, criminal, financial records are filed under Israeli law. They are not "citizens" of the West Bank. All their transactions with govt reside with the State of Israel.

So knock yourself out and fix it.. It's not gonna change the BASIC UNDERLYING PROBLEMS.

 

[Coyote]

all religions have a loophole for lying.

Show me one in Judaism.

When is it Permitted to Tell a Lie? - OU Torah

All religions have them...to preserve lives, etc.

Ok, for peace in the family, what's etcetera?

Generally saving life, peace in the family is an etc.

Why are You not being specific?
Let's compare it to Islam.

I was being specific. Other reasons can be hiding one’s faith when under persecution which also falls under saving of life. Again, not different than Islam despite the canard about it that has become popular.

Are Muslims allowed to lie for Islamic causes? Taqiyya explained

 

[Coyote]

Here is something anti-Israelers don’t discuss and I am surprised they don’t. Rather than the hyperbole of non existent genocide and Gaza concentration camps how about focusing on the real injustices?

The people who live in Area C are under two different systems of justice. That means if you are a Palestinian you are tried under the military court system. If you are Israeli you are tried in the civil system despite the fact you are not in Israel.. Guess which one has far more rights, especially for minors?

Do West Bank Israelis, Palestinians live under different set of laws?

How many Palestinians WANT to live under Israeli law and jurisdiction? Answer is -- a small minority. So why is it an issue? Can't force them to accept Israeli sovereignty or law so work to get them WHAT THEY WANT. Which is autonomy of SOME form with their own security and justice.

Seems a waste of time to call this apartheid or bias when it's really not..
Need to SUPPORT solutions to getting some autonomy for the Palis both within Israel and in the WORSE conditions elsewhere.

How many Palestinians want ti live under MILITARY LAW? How about ONE SET of laws for all in that one area? Put them ALL under military law.

Nobody wants live under military law. That's why they need to form a RESPONSIBLE govt. One that isn't focused on pushing Israelis into the sea. They HAD a functioning police force during the high point of the PA. And you know how that ended.

Put them all (WHO????) under military law.. Any Israelis in the occupied territories must ALREADY comply with the Security forces there. Not Israels fault that the settlers have easier access to borders and checkpoints.
In fact, Palis with work visas for daily jobs in Israel get a priority at the checkpoints.

That is not the point at all. That is not what I am talking about.

Military law was installed shortly after Israel took those territories. In theory it everyone there. There are significant differences in terms of rights and results.

The Military Courts
It should also be emphasized that although the security legislation empowers the courts in the West Bank to try any person who commits an offense within their area or jurisdiction, in practice the military courts deal solely with cases relating to Palestinian residents. All cases involving settlers who have committed criminal and/or security offenses in the West Bank are brought before the civilian courts within the State of Israel.

Because they are citizens of Israel.. Can't help you with that. All THEIR property, criminal, financial records are filed under Israeli law. They are not "citizens" of the West Bank. All their transactions with govt reside with the State of Israel.

So knock yourself out and fix it.. It's not gonna change the BASIC UNDERLYING PROBLEMS.

So citizens of Israel fall under Israeli law outside of Israel? What are Palestinians citizens of?

You know, sometimes fixing the smaller problems can lead to improvement in larger ones. Ever thought of that?