Allah is the Moon God of Ancient Mecca

[Coyote]

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

To worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.

Instead of embarassing yourself using anti-thing sites, try reading a Qur'an sometime. Allah's identity is established in the second sura.

62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

92. There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully.

98. Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

101. And when there came to them an apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!

2. The Cow

Muhammed was a false prophet himself. Why should anyone believe anything from texts he stole and plagiarized?

Do you read these things before hitting 'reply to thread?'

Why should anyone believe the Bible?

It is apparent that you don't believe the Bible from all the stupid OP's you continually put on USMB. I didn't follow you link for I had no reason to follow it.

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

 

[Coyote]

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

To worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.

no one cares

I know. Most Christians continue to believe the Pope is the antichrist. They haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that the antichrist will come forth from the Middle East, most probably Northern Iraq or Turkey. In fact, the current Prime Minister of Turkey may lead the first attack on Israel.

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

 

[the_human_being]

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

To worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.

Instead of embarassing yourself using anti-thing sites, try reading a Qur'an sometime. Allah's identity is established in the second sura.

62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

92. There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully.

98. Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

101. And when there came to them an apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!

2. The Cow

Muhammed was a false prophet himself. Why should anyone believe anything from texts he stole and plagiarized?

Do you read these things before hitting 'reply to thread?'

Why should anyone believe the Bible?

It is apparent that you don't believe the Bible from all the stupid OP's you continually put on USMB. I didn't follow you link for I had no reason to follow it.

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

Why should it bother you or the rest of these nuts what other folks believe or do not believe? Does it make you angry that I choose to drive a Nissan Titan?

 

[Coyote]

Instead of embarassing yourself using anti-thing sites, try reading a Qur'an sometime. Allah's identity is established in the second sura.

62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

92. There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully.

98. Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

101. And when there came to them an apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!

2. The Cow

Muhammed was a false prophet himself. Why should anyone believe anything from texts he stole and plagiarized?

Do you read these things before hitting 'reply to thread?'

Why should anyone believe the Bible?

It is apparent that you don't believe the Bible from all the stupid OP's you continually put on USMB. I didn't follow you link for I had no reason to follow it.

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

Why should it bother you or the rest of these nuts what other folks believe or do not believe? Does it make you angry that I choose to drive a Nissan Titan?

What makes you think it bothers me? You're the one that seems a tad hot under the collar

 

[the_human_being]

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

To worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.

no one cares

I know. Most Christians continue to believe the Pope is the antichrist. They haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that the antichrist will come forth from the Middle East, most probably Northern Iraq or Turkey. In fact, the current Prime Minister of Turkey may lead the first attack on Israel.

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

 

[Moonglow]

Several deities have been associated with the Moon God/dess, depends on which society was doing it......Even Jesus and his wife..as the goddess.....

 

[the_human_being]

Muhammed was a false prophet himself. Why should anyone believe anything from texts he stole and plagiarized?

Do you read these things before hitting 'reply to thread?'

Why should anyone believe the Bible?

It is apparent that you don't believe the Bible from all the stupid OP's you continually put on USMB. I didn't follow you link for I had no reason to follow it.

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

Why should it bother you or the rest of these nuts what other folks believe or do not believe? Does it make you angry that I choose to drive a Nissan Titan?

What makes you think it bothers me? You're the one that seems a tad hot under the collar

It must bother you or you would not have taken up the issue. LOL!!

 

[Coyote]

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

To worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.

no one cares

I know. Most Christians continue to believe the Pope is the antichrist. They haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that the antichrist will come forth from the Middle East, most probably Northern Iraq or Turkey. In fact, the current Prime Minister of Turkey may lead the first attack on Israel.

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

 

[Coyote]

Do you read these things before hitting 'reply to thread?'

Why should anyone believe the Bible?

It is apparent that you don't believe the Bible from all the stupid OP's you continually put on USMB. I didn't follow you link for I had no reason to follow it.

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

Why should it bother you or the rest of these nuts what other folks believe or do not believe? Does it make you angry that I choose to drive a Nissan Titan?

What makes you think it bothers me? You're the one that seems a tad hot under the collar

It must bother you or you would not have taken up the issue. LOL!!

pfft. Taking up issues may have nothing to do with being "bothered' or "angry". Sometimes, amusement is the primary motivation.

 

[Coyote]

Several deities have been associated with the Moon God/dess, depends on which society was doing it......Even Jesus and his wife..as the goddess.....

Moon goddess' effing rock. Nothing wrong with them. Why do folks seem to think it's a slur?

 

[the_human_being]

While "Allah" could refer to God literally, the Allah of Islam is the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia.

The Arabic word for "god" is "ilah", while "al" is the Arabic for "the". Therefore, "Allah" combines "al" with "ilah" and removes the "i", to literally means, "the god".

But much like "YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah" is the personal name of the God of the Bible, "Allah" was also the personal name given to the moon god, the highest of the 360 pagan idols worshipped in Mecca, Muhammad's home town.

What evidence is there that Islam's "Allah" is the pagan moon god of ancient Mecca?

Consider what the pagan Arabians did to worship their moon god, Allah; they prayed while bowing towards K'abah, the "house of Allah" in Mecca that houses a meteorite - a stone from space - several times a day, visited it once a year, and walked around it several times during their visit.

To worship their Allah today:

• Muslims pray bowing towards the K'abah in Mecca five times a day.

• About two million Muslims visit Mecca every year and walk around the K'abah (the black cube, which is 40 feet tall, on the right).

• The Muslim "holy" month of Ramadan starts at the sighting of a new crescent moon.

• Perched atop churches across the world is the cross, the symbol of the sacrifice made by our God. Perched atop mosques across the world is the crescent moon (above), the symbol of Allah whom Muhammad chose as the god of Islam.

When confronted with the details above, Muslim typically re-assert that "Allah" still means "al" + "ilah" - i.e., "the" + "god" - and is same as the God of the Bible not the moon god of pagan Mecca. They even point out that Arabic Christian Bibles uses "Allah" to refer to God.

The "Allah" in the current Arabic Christian Bibles is literally "the God" and does refer to the God of the Bible. Advise Muslims that if this is really the "Allah" they are worshipping, then they should stop bowing down toward a meteorite five times a day and the crescent moon should neither start their "holy" month of Ramadan nor top their mosques. If the Allah they are worshipping is the God of the Bible, then they should worship Him as the Bible instructs.

no one cares

I know. Most Christians continue to believe the Pope is the antichrist. They haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that the antichrist will come forth from the Middle East, most probably Northern Iraq or Turkey. In fact, the current Prime Minister of Turkey may lead the first attack on Israel.

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

I just told you. Are you stupid?

 

[the_human_being]

It is apparent that you don't believe the Bible from all the stupid OP's you continually put on USMB. I didn't follow you link for I had no reason to follow it.

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

Why should it bother you or the rest of these nuts what other folks believe or do not believe? Does it make you angry that I choose to drive a Nissan Titan?

What makes you think it bothers me? You're the one that seems a tad hot under the collar

It must bother you or you would not have taken up the issue. LOL!!

pfft. Taking up issues may have nothing to do with being "bothered' or "angry". Sometimes, amusement is the primary motivation.

Well, I just watched the Broncos lose their first game so don't tread on me.

 

[Coyote]

What's the biblical God based on?

Just another ancient diety.

Why SHOULD anyone believe the Bible? Or the Koran?

Why should it bother you or the rest of these nuts what other folks believe or do not believe? Does it make you angry that I choose to drive a Nissan Titan?

What makes you think it bothers me? You're the one that seems a tad hot under the collar

It must bother you or you would not have taken up the issue. LOL!!

pfft. Taking up issues may have nothing to do with being "bothered' or "angry". Sometimes, amusement is the primary motivation.

Well, I just watched the Broncos lose their first game so don't tread on me.

 

[Coyote]

no one cares

I know. Most Christians continue to believe the Pope is the antichrist. They haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that the antichrist will come forth from the Middle East, most probably Northern Iraq or Turkey. In fact, the current Prime Minister of Turkey may lead the first attack on Israel.

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

I just told you. Are you stupid?

I'm not going through entire tracts to do you your research. Provide the relevant quotes to back up your claims

 

[the_human_being]

I know. Most Christians continue to believe the Pope is the antichrist. They haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that the antichrist will come forth from the Middle East, most probably Northern Iraq or Turkey. In fact, the current Prime Minister of Turkey may lead the first attack on Israel.

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

I just told you. Are you stupid?

I'm not going through entire tracts to do you your research. Provide the relevant quotes to back up your claims

I'm not going to go get my Bible and look it up for you either. I really am not responsible for your Biblical ignorance.

 

[Moonglow]

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

I just told you. Are you stupid?

I'm not going through entire tracts to do you your research. Provide the relevant quotes to back up your claims

I'm not going to go get my Bible and look it up for you either. I really am not responsible for your Biblical ignorance.

You don't don't have an on-line Bible at home?

 

[guno]

TOP TEN SIGNS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN FUNDY

(Author Unknown)

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of other gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from lower life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in three gods- the trinity.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" --including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that some spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs --though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

 

[Moonglow]

Several deities have been associated with the Moon God/dess, depends on which society was doing it......Even Jesus and his wife..as the goddess.....

Moon goddess' effing rock. Nothing wrong with them. Why do folks seem to think it's a slur?

It is to them cause they have mental issues if that is all they can find bigotry in....

 

[Coyote]

Where in the Bible does it say all that?

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

I just told you. Are you stupid?

I'm not going through entire tracts to do you your research. Provide the relevant quotes to back up your claims

I'm not going to go get my Bible and look it up for you either. I really am not responsible for your Biblical ignorance.

Nope, you're just responsible for supporting your claims.

 

[the_human_being]

Why don't you borrow one and read it for yourself? Try Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel for starters.

So you can't show where it says all that? Just say so and we can move on.

I just told you. Are you stupid?

I'm not going through entire tracts to do you your research. Provide the relevant quotes to back up your claims

I'm not going to go get my Bible and look it up for you either. I really am not responsible for your Biblical ignorance.

You don't don't have an on-line Bible at home?

Yes, but I'm not about to spend daays explaining the scriptures to a bunch of atheists and agnostics.