America First. R U Sure?

[Correll]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

Germany's not. ENgland's not. France isn't.

IF Europe is concerned, they are more than big enough to protect themselves from what is left of Russia.

persons not concerned about the AXIS POWERS-----Russia/Iran -----are the spawn of those who were not concerned about ADOLF/MUSSOLINI

ask Charlie chaplan

I made a point about Europe being more than able to protect themselves against the greatly diminished power of Russia, if they feel the need to.

Nothing in your post addressed that.

This was the COld War.

This is today.

Where were all you tough libs back when they were actually a threat to US?

oh----ok-----my point is the combined power and AMBITIONS of Putin's Russia----which is NOT Lenin's Russia or Krushchev's Russia ------and present day IRAN.
It is a whole different situation------the USA is endangered, economically,
by the Iran/Russia alliance----and ultimately our MILITARY interests are threatened in strategic areas on land and sea

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

I wanted to share this conservative's view on Trump's foreign policy.

Charles Krauthammer: Trump's foreign-policy revolution

• 
  
  
  • By Charles Krauthammer, The Washington Post
    
  • Jan 29, 2017
    

WASHINGTON — The flurry of bold executive orders and of highly provocative Cabinet nominations (such as a secretary of education who actually believes in school choice) has been encouraging to conservative skeptics of Donald Trump. But it shouldn’t erase the troubling memory of one major element of Trump’s inaugural address.

The foreign policy section has received far less attention than so revolutionary a declaration deserved. It radically redefined the American national interest as understood since World War II.

Trump outlined a world in which foreign relations are collapsed into a zero-sum game. They gain, we lose. As in: “For many decades, we’ve enriched foreign industry at the expense of American industry; subsidized the armies of other countries” while depleting our own. And most provocatively this: “The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed all across the world.”


JFK’s inaugural pledged to support any friend and oppose any foe to assure the success of liberty. Note that Trump makes no distinction between friend and foe (and no reference to liberty). They’re all out to use, exploit and surpass us.

No more, declared Trump: “From this day forward, it’s going to be only America First.”

Imagine how this resonates abroad. “America First” was the name of the organization led by Charles Lindbergh that bitterly fought FDR before U.S. entry into World War II — right through the Battle of Britain — to keep America neutral between Churchill’s Britain and Hitler’s Reich.

Not that Trump was consciously imitating Lindbergh. I doubt he was even aware of the reference. He just liked the phrase. But I can assure you that in London and in every world capital they are aware of the antecedent and the intimations of a new American isolationism. Trump gave them good reason to think so, going on to note “the right of all nations to put their own interests first.” America included.

Some claim that putting America first is a reassertion of American exceptionalism. On the contrary, it is the antithesis. It makes America no different from all the other countries that define themselves by a particularist blood-and-soil nationalism. What made America exceptional, unique in the world, was defining its own national interest beyond its narrow economic and security needs to encompass the safety and prosperity of a vast array of allies. A free world marked by open trade and mutual defense was President Truman’s vision, shared by every president since.

Until now.

Some have argued that Trump is just dangling a bargaining chip to negotiate better terms of trade or alliance. Or that Trump’s views are so changeable and unstable — telling European newspapers two weeks ago that NATO is obsolete and then saying “NATO is very important to me” — that this is just another unmoored entry on a ledger of confusion.


But both claims are demonstrably wrong. An inaugural address is no off-the-cuff riff. These words are the product of at least three weeks of deliberate crafting for an address that Trump said would express his philosophy. Moreover, to remove any ambiguity, Trump prefaced his “America first” proclamation with: “From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land.”

Trump’s vision misunderstands the logic underlying the far larger, far-reaching view of Truman. The Marshall Plan sure took wealth away from the American middle class and distributed it abroad. But for a reason. Altruism, in part. But mostly to stabilize Western Europe as a bulwark against an existential global enemy.

We carried many free riders throughout the Cold War. The burden was heavy. But this was not a mindless act of charity; it was an exercise in enlightened self-interest. After all, it was indeed better to subsidize foreign armies — German, South Korean, Turkish and dozens of others — and have them stand with us, rather than stationing even more American troops everywhere around the world at greater risk of both blood and treasure.

We are embarking upon insularity and smallness. Nor is this just theory. Trump’s long-promised but nonetheless abrupt withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership is the momentous first fruit of his foreign policy doctrine. Last year the prime minister of Singapore told John McCain that if we pulled out of TPP “you’ll be finished in Asia.” He knows the region.

For 70 years, we sustained an international system of open commerce and democratic alliances that has enabled America and the West to grow and thrive. Global leadership is what made America great. We abandon it at our peril.


Charles Krauthammer writes for The Washington Post. Email: [email protected].

Allow me to put an European outlook to this OP. I'm a Belgian citizen with an American wife. Most of my in laws voted for Trump and I don't consider them stupid or racist. Having said that this is what is happening in my country and I suspect the world. For 70 years now the Western World has looked for guidance from the US, a deferral your country has earned through expending of lives and vast sums of money. A sacrifice that has earned the US the right to permeate our society with both your business and culture. I grew up on American TV shows and with McDonald's for food and Ford for Transport. The value of oil is expressed in USD. I love the idea of the US, the sheer exuberance, tolerance and tenacity as portrayed on TV and experienced now by my marriage.
That's why most of us watched with wonder how someone who reminds most Europeans of some of it's darkest days, could be put in charge of your country. I want to put out front now that my post is not meant as another Hitler reminder, simply a notice that for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies, Europe was set ablaze. So Trump before he came to power was looked at very warily. Then in less than 2 weeks, he showed us that what was said in those rallies was not empty words, and what's more that he isn't planning to allow anyone to hold him accountable.
Why is this important? Trump is creating a power vacuum. Where the US leads under Trump, most nations do not want to follow. This will quickly result in all deference to the US eroding away. This also will result in instability while the western world realigns itself. Where it ends I don't know, but all throughout history global instability are very bloody times. For a lot of people on this board " I don't care" would be the most common response to that, but those people should note that losing global influence mean that you inevitably will have less control over events and that that control is the very source of your power.

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

 

[forkup]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

persons not concerned about the AXIS POWERS-----Russia/Iran -----are the spawn of those who were not concerned about ADOLF/MUSSOLINI

ask Charlie chaplan

I made a point about Europe being more than able to protect themselves against the greatly diminished power of Russia, if they feel the need to.

Nothing in your post addressed that.

This was the COld War.

This is today.

Where were all you tough libs back when they were actually a threat to US?

oh----ok-----my point is the combined power and AMBITIONS of Putin's Russia----which is NOT Lenin's Russia or Krushchev's Russia ------and present day IRAN.
It is a whole different situation------the USA is endangered, economically,
by the Iran/Russia alliance----and ultimately our MILITARY interests are threatened in strategic areas on land and sea

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

I wanted to share this conservative's view on Trump's foreign policy.

Charles Krauthammer: Trump's foreign-policy revolution

• 
  
  
  • By Charles Krauthammer, The Washington Post
    
  • Jan 29, 2017
    

WASHINGTON — The flurry of bold executive orders and of highly provocative Cabinet nominations (such as a secretary of education who actually believes in school choice) has been encouraging to conservative skeptics of Donald Trump. But it shouldn’t erase the troubling memory of one major element of Trump’s inaugural address.

The foreign policy section has received far less attention than so revolutionary a declaration deserved. It radically redefined the American national interest as understood since World War II.

Trump outlined a world in which foreign relations are collapsed into a zero-sum game. They gain, we lose. As in: “For many decades, we’ve enriched foreign industry at the expense of American industry; subsidized the armies of other countries” while depleting our own. And most provocatively this: “The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed all across the world.”


JFK’s inaugural pledged to support any friend and oppose any foe to assure the success of liberty. Note that Trump makes no distinction between friend and foe (and no reference to liberty). They’re all out to use, exploit and surpass us.

No more, declared Trump: “From this day forward, it’s going to be only America First.”

Imagine how this resonates abroad. “America First” was the name of the organization led by Charles Lindbergh that bitterly fought FDR before U.S. entry into World War II — right through the Battle of Britain — to keep America neutral between Churchill’s Britain and Hitler’s Reich.

Not that Trump was consciously imitating Lindbergh. I doubt he was even aware of the reference. He just liked the phrase. But I can assure you that in London and in every world capital they are aware of the antecedent and the intimations of a new American isolationism. Trump gave them good reason to think so, going on to note “the right of all nations to put their own interests first.” America included.

Some claim that putting America first is a reassertion of American exceptionalism. On the contrary, it is the antithesis. It makes America no different from all the other countries that define themselves by a particularist blood-and-soil nationalism. What made America exceptional, unique in the world, was defining its own national interest beyond its narrow economic and security needs to encompass the safety and prosperity of a vast array of allies. A free world marked by open trade and mutual defense was President Truman’s vision, shared by every president since.

Until now.

Some have argued that Trump is just dangling a bargaining chip to negotiate better terms of trade or alliance. Or that Trump’s views are so changeable and unstable — telling European newspapers two weeks ago that NATO is obsolete and then saying “NATO is very important to me” — that this is just another unmoored entry on a ledger of confusion.


But both claims are demonstrably wrong. An inaugural address is no off-the-cuff riff. These words are the product of at least three weeks of deliberate crafting for an address that Trump said would express his philosophy. Moreover, to remove any ambiguity, Trump prefaced his “America first” proclamation with: “From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land.”

Trump’s vision misunderstands the logic underlying the far larger, far-reaching view of Truman. The Marshall Plan sure took wealth away from the American middle class and distributed it abroad. But for a reason. Altruism, in part. But mostly to stabilize Western Europe as a bulwark against an existential global enemy.

We carried many free riders throughout the Cold War. The burden was heavy. But this was not a mindless act of charity; it was an exercise in enlightened self-interest. After all, it was indeed better to subsidize foreign armies — German, South Korean, Turkish and dozens of others — and have them stand with us, rather than stationing even more American troops everywhere around the world at greater risk of both blood and treasure.

We are embarking upon insularity and smallness. Nor is this just theory. Trump’s long-promised but nonetheless abrupt withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership is the momentous first fruit of his foreign policy doctrine. Last year the prime minister of Singapore told John McCain that if we pulled out of TPP “you’ll be finished in Asia.” He knows the region.

For 70 years, we sustained an international system of open commerce and democratic alliances that has enabled America and the West to grow and thrive. Global leadership is what made America great. We abandon it at our peril.


Charles Krauthammer writes for The Washington Post. Email: [email protected].

Allow me to put an European outlook to this OP. I'm a Belgian citizen with an American wife. Most of my in laws voted for Trump and I don't consider them stupid or racist. Having said that this is what is happening in my country and I suspect the world. For 70 years now the Western World has looked for guidance from the US, a deferral your country has earned through expending of lives and vast sums of money. A sacrifice that has earned the US the right to permeate our society with both your business and culture. I grew up on American TV shows and with McDonald's for food and Ford for Transport. The value of oil is expressed in USD. I love the idea of the US, the sheer exuberance, tolerance and tenacity as portrayed on TV and experienced now by my marriage.
That's why most of us watched with wonder how someone who reminds most Europeans of some of it's darkest days, could be put in charge of your country. I want to put out front now that my post is not meant as another Hitler reminder, simply a notice that for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies, Europe was set ablaze. So Trump before he came to power was looked at very warily. Then in less than 2 weeks, he showed us that what was said in those rallies was not empty words, and what's more that he isn't planning to allow anyone to hold him accountable.
Why is this important? Trump is creating a power vacuum. Where the US leads under Trump, most nations do not want to follow. This will quickly result in all deference to the US eroding away. This also will result in instability while the western world realigns itself. Where it ends I don't know, but all throughout history global instability are very bloody times. For a lot of people on this board " I don't care" would be the most common response to that, but those people should note that losing global influence mean that you inevitably will have less control over events and that that control is the very source of your power.

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

 

[forkup]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

oh----ok-----my point is the combined power and AMBITIONS of Putin's Russia----which is NOT Lenin's Russia or Krushchev's Russia ------and present day IRAN.
It is a whole different situation------the USA is endangered, economically,
by the Iran/Russia alliance----and ultimately our MILITARY interests are threatened in strategic areas on land and sea

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

Allow me to put an European outlook to this OP. I'm a Belgian citizen with an American wife. Most of my in laws voted for Trump and I don't consider them stupid or racist. Having said that this is what is happening in my country and I suspect the world. For 70 years now the Western World has looked for guidance from the US, a deferral your country has earned through expending of lives and vast sums of money. A sacrifice that has earned the US the right to permeate our society with both your business and culture. I grew up on American TV shows and with McDonald's for food and Ford for Transport. The value of oil is expressed in USD. I love the idea of the US, the sheer exuberance, tolerance and tenacity as portrayed on TV and experienced now by my marriage.
That's why most of us watched with wonder how someone who reminds most Europeans of some of it's darkest days, could be put in charge of your country. I want to put out front now that my post is not meant as another Hitler reminder, simply a notice that for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies, Europe was set ablaze. So Trump before he came to power was looked at very warily. Then in less than 2 weeks, he showed us that what was said in those rallies was not empty words, and what's more that he isn't planning to allow anyone to hold him accountable.
Why is this important? Trump is creating a power vacuum. Where the US leads under Trump, most nations do not want to follow. This will quickly result in all deference to the US eroding away. This also will result in instability while the western world realigns itself. Where it ends I don't know, but all throughout history global instability are very bloody times. For a lot of people on this board " I don't care" would be the most common response to that, but those people should note that losing global influence mean that you inevitably will have less control over events and that that control is the very source of your power.

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

so what's your point?

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

 

[Correll]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

I made a point about Europe being more than able to protect themselves against the greatly diminished power of Russia, if they feel the need to.

Nothing in your post addressed that.

This was the COld War.

This is today.

Where were all you tough libs back when they were actually a threat to US?

oh----ok-----my point is the combined power and AMBITIONS of Putin's Russia----which is NOT Lenin's Russia or Krushchev's Russia ------and present day IRAN.
It is a whole different situation------the USA is endangered, economically,
by the Iran/Russia alliance----and ultimately our MILITARY interests are threatened in strategic areas on land and sea

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

I wanted to share this conservative's view on Trump's foreign policy.

Charles Krauthammer: Trump's foreign-policy revolution

• 
  
  
  • By Charles Krauthammer, The Washington Post
    
  • Jan 29, 2017
    

WASHINGTON — The flurry of bold executive orders and of highly provocative Cabinet nominations (such as a secretary of education who actually believes in school choice) has been encouraging to conservative skeptics of Donald Trump. But it shouldn’t erase the troubling memory of one major element of Trump’s inaugural address.

The foreign policy section has received far less attention than so revolutionary a declaration deserved. It radically redefined the American national interest as understood since World War II.

Trump outlined a world in which foreign relations are collapsed into a zero-sum game. They gain, we lose. As in: “For many decades, we’ve enriched foreign industry at the expense of American industry; subsidized the armies of other countries” while depleting our own. And most provocatively this: “The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed all across the world.”


JFK’s inaugural pledged to support any friend and oppose any foe to assure the success of liberty. Note that Trump makes no distinction between friend and foe (and no reference to liberty). They’re all out to use, exploit and surpass us.

No more, declared Trump: “From this day forward, it’s going to be only America First.”

Imagine how this resonates abroad. “America First” was the name of the organization led by Charles Lindbergh that bitterly fought FDR before U.S. entry into World War II — right through the Battle of Britain — to keep America neutral between Churchill’s Britain and Hitler’s Reich.

Not that Trump was consciously imitating Lindbergh. I doubt he was even aware of the reference. He just liked the phrase. But I can assure you that in London and in every world capital they are aware of the antecedent and the intimations of a new American isolationism. Trump gave them good reason to think so, going on to note “the right of all nations to put their own interests first.” America included.

Some claim that putting America first is a reassertion of American exceptionalism. On the contrary, it is the antithesis. It makes America no different from all the other countries that define themselves by a particularist blood-and-soil nationalism. What made America exceptional, unique in the world, was defining its own national interest beyond its narrow economic and security needs to encompass the safety and prosperity of a vast array of allies. A free world marked by open trade and mutual defense was President Truman’s vision, shared by every president since.

Until now.

Some have argued that Trump is just dangling a bargaining chip to negotiate better terms of trade or alliance. Or that Trump’s views are so changeable and unstable — telling European newspapers two weeks ago that NATO is obsolete and then saying “NATO is very important to me” — that this is just another unmoored entry on a ledger of confusion.


But both claims are demonstrably wrong. An inaugural address is no off-the-cuff riff. These words are the product of at least three weeks of deliberate crafting for an address that Trump said would express his philosophy. Moreover, to remove any ambiguity, Trump prefaced his “America first” proclamation with: “From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land.”

Trump’s vision misunderstands the logic underlying the far larger, far-reaching view of Truman. The Marshall Plan sure took wealth away from the American middle class and distributed it abroad. But for a reason. Altruism, in part. But mostly to stabilize Western Europe as a bulwark against an existential global enemy.

We carried many free riders throughout the Cold War. The burden was heavy. But this was not a mindless act of charity; it was an exercise in enlightened self-interest. After all, it was indeed better to subsidize foreign armies — German, South Korean, Turkish and dozens of others — and have them stand with us, rather than stationing even more American troops everywhere around the world at greater risk of both blood and treasure.

We are embarking upon insularity and smallness. Nor is this just theory. Trump’s long-promised but nonetheless abrupt withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership is the momentous first fruit of his foreign policy doctrine. Last year the prime minister of Singapore told John McCain that if we pulled out of TPP “you’ll be finished in Asia.” He knows the region.

For 70 years, we sustained an international system of open commerce and democratic alliances that has enabled America and the West to grow and thrive. Global leadership is what made America great. We abandon it at our peril.


Charles Krauthammer writes for The Washington Post. Email: [email protected].

Allow me to put an European outlook to this OP. I'm a Belgian citizen with an American wife. Most of my in laws voted for Trump and I don't consider them stupid or racist. Having said that this is what is happening in my country and I suspect the world. For 70 years now the Western World has looked for guidance from the US, a deferral your country has earned through expending of lives and vast sums of money. A sacrifice that has earned the US the right to permeate our society with both your business and culture. I grew up on American TV shows and with McDonald's for food and Ford for Transport. The value of oil is expressed in USD. I love the idea of the US, the sheer exuberance, tolerance and tenacity as portrayed on TV and experienced now by my marriage.
That's why most of us watched with wonder how someone who reminds most Europeans of some of it's darkest days, could be put in charge of your country. I want to put out front now that my post is not meant as another Hitler reminder, simply a notice that for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies, Europe was set ablaze. So Trump before he came to power was looked at very warily. Then in less than 2 weeks, he showed us that what was said in those rallies was not empty words, and what's more that he isn't planning to allow anyone to hold him accountable.
Why is this important? Trump is creating a power vacuum. Where the US leads under Trump, most nations do not want to follow. This will quickly result in all deference to the US eroding away. This also will result in instability while the western world realigns itself. Where it ends I don't know, but all throughout history global instability are very bloody times. For a lot of people on this board " I don't care" would be the most common response to that, but those people should note that losing global influence mean that you inevitably will have less control over events and that that control is the very source of your power.

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

You have internalized the views of the Conventional Wisdom, created by your media and political class.

Part of that it that your in laws are stupid and/or racist, for supporting TRump.

If they are wrong about that, they could be wrong about the rest of it.

Are you prepared to consider that?

 

[forkup]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

oh----ok-----my point is the combined power and AMBITIONS of Putin's Russia----which is NOT Lenin's Russia or Krushchev's Russia ------and present day IRAN.
It is a whole different situation------the USA is endangered, economically,
by the Iran/Russia alliance----and ultimately our MILITARY interests are threatened in strategic areas on land and sea

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

Allow me to put an European outlook to this OP. I'm a Belgian citizen with an American wife. Most of my in laws voted for Trump and I don't consider them stupid or racist. Having said that this is what is happening in my country and I suspect the world. For 70 years now the Western World has looked for guidance from the US, a deferral your country has earned through expending of lives and vast sums of money. A sacrifice that has earned the US the right to permeate our society with both your business and culture. I grew up on American TV shows and with McDonald's for food and Ford for Transport. The value of oil is expressed in USD. I love the idea of the US, the sheer exuberance, tolerance and tenacity as portrayed on TV and experienced now by my marriage.
That's why most of us watched with wonder how someone who reminds most Europeans of some of it's darkest days, could be put in charge of your country. I want to put out front now that my post is not meant as another Hitler reminder, simply a notice that for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies, Europe was set ablaze. So Trump before he came to power was looked at very warily. Then in less than 2 weeks, he showed us that what was said in those rallies was not empty words, and what's more that he isn't planning to allow anyone to hold him accountable.
Why is this important? Trump is creating a power vacuum. Where the US leads under Trump, most nations do not want to follow. This will quickly result in all deference to the US eroding away. This also will result in instability while the western world realigns itself. Where it ends I don't know, but all throughout history global instability are very bloody times. For a lot of people on this board " I don't care" would be the most common response to that, but those people should note that losing global influence mean that you inevitably will have less control over events and that that control is the very source of your power.

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

You have internalized the views of the Conventional Wisdom, created by your media and political class.

Part of that it that your in laws are stupid and/or racist, for supporting TRump.

If they are wrong about that, they could be wrong about the rest of it.

Are you prepared to consider that?

Yes I am. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that has been known to concede a point. The trouble is you will have to be able to give me ironclad argumentation. Can you do that?

 

[Correll]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

so what's your point?

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.

 

[Correll]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very

How are we endangered by Russia/Iran economically and militarily? Give me your scenario(s).

You know your in laws are not stupid or racist.

Yet the same people who are telling you that TRump has "demonized other groups" are telling you that your in-laws are stupid and racist.


IF those people are wrong about your in laws, then maybe they are wrong about TRump.

Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

You have internalized the views of the Conventional Wisdom, created by your media and political class.

Part of that it that your in laws are stupid and/or racist, for supporting TRump.

If they are wrong about that, they could be wrong about the rest of it.

Are you prepared to consider that?

Yes I am. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that has been known to concede a point. The trouble is you will have to be able to give me ironclad argumentation. Can you do that?

I note that you talk of the Wall as though it was the sole move to deal with the Illegal immigration problem. This is the exact opposite of the truth. Trump has numerous posted plans for addressing the problem from increasing the number of ICE agents to punishing employers of illegals, to the Wall.

 

[irosie91]

Globalism is a set up for the power of the OLIGARCHS

 

[forkup]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very
Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

so what's your point?

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.

Yes Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions. They are taking jobs, but mostly jobs that aren't getting filled by American workers, I've seen studies that even give them a net benefit to the US economy. You can probably cite studies that deny it but that's neither here nor there.Can you show a study that confirms that Mexicans coming over are predominantly criminals, which is what he claimed? No Muslims aren't killing people, terrorists are. This is exactly the broad brush that verifies my OP of him demonising large groups of people.

 

[jc456]

so what's your point?

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.

Yes Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions. They are taking jobs, but mostly jobs that aren't getting filled by American workers, I've seen studies that even give them a net benefit to the US economy. You can probably cite studies that deny it but that's neither here nor there.Can you show a study that confirms that Mexicans coming over are predominantly criminals, which is what he claimed? No Muslims aren't killing people, terrorists are. This is exactly the broad brush that verifies my OP of him demonising large groups of people.

so what about a wall? are you saying the US can't build a wall? You know there already is one right? what exactly are you implying?

And let me laugh at the entire write up about jobs you just posted.

 

[forkup]

Here's a scenario. Trump has made it very
Nobody is telling me that he demonised other groups it's all on tape.



These are not figments of imagination, these are not distortions by the press, this is the current US president speaking.

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

You have internalized the views of the Conventional Wisdom, created by your media and political class.

Part of that it that your in laws are stupid and/or racist, for supporting TRump.

If they are wrong about that, they could be wrong about the rest of it.

Are you prepared to consider that?

Yes I am. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that has been known to concede a point. The trouble is you will have to be able to give me ironclad argumentation. Can you do that?

I note that you talk of the Wall as though it was the sole move to deal with the Illegal immigration problem. This is the exact opposite of the truth. Trump has numerous posted plans for addressing the problem from increasing the number of ICE agents to punishing employers of illegals, to the Wall.

You noted correctly. The wall is the most visible and therefore the most scary part of his plans. I note that you didn't answer the premise that the root cause of this kind of immigration is economical, and that Trumps plan inevitably worsens the Mexicans economical situation, creating more people who want to cross.

 

[jc456]

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

You have internalized the views of the Conventional Wisdom, created by your media and political class.

Part of that it that your in laws are stupid and/or racist, for supporting TRump.

If they are wrong about that, they could be wrong about the rest of it.

Are you prepared to consider that?

Yes I am. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that has been known to concede a point. The trouble is you will have to be able to give me ironclad argumentation. Can you do that?

I note that you talk of the Wall as though it was the sole move to deal with the Illegal immigration problem. This is the exact opposite of the truth. Trump has numerous posted plans for addressing the problem from increasing the number of ICE agents to punishing employers of illegals, to the Wall.

You noted correctly. The wall is the most visible and therefore the most scary part of his plans. I note that you didn't answer the premise that the root cause of this kind of immigration is economical, and that Trumps plan inevitably worsens the Mexicans economical situation, creating more people who want to cross.

a wall is scary? why is that? I didn't know a structure that just stands still is capable of such a thing.

 

[Correll]

so what's your point?

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.

Yes Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions. They are taking jobs, but mostly jobs that aren't getting filled by American workers, I've seen studies that even give them a net benefit to the US economy. You can probably cite studies that deny it but that's neither here nor there.Can you show a study that confirms that Mexicans coming over are predominantly criminals, which is what he claimed? No Muslims aren't killing people, terrorists are. This is exactly the broad brush that verifies my OP of him demonising large groups of people.

1. The idea that the illegals are only taking jobs Americans don't want it bs. l've done many of those jobs that Americans supposedly don't do. And my co-workers were all Americans.

2. The government is careful to NOT track crime by illegals, so data is spotty. But indications are strong that illegals bring a shit load of crime and drugs with them.

3. I'm sure the gays in Orlando, or the girls of Rotherham are grateful that you are so very careful with the feelings of Muslims, to the point of putting that ahead of the safety of your fellow citizens. How are Belgium jews loving the rise in Muslim population?

 

[Correll]

About real issues. Or do you think that having millions of illegals coming across the border is not a problem?

2 things. My OP was about how Trump's rhetoric scares Europeans and corrodes Trump's power abroad, not about if he's right or not. Secondly having said that, I fail to see how any wall will be able to stop people from coming over, especially a 2000 mile border. People cross the mediterranean in what amounts to rafts if they get desperate enough. People crossed the Berlin Wall and that shit was barb wired, mined and guarded by people with orders to kill anybody who tried. Especially considering the fact that Trump wants to revisit NAFTA thereby almost assuredly impoverishing Mexico and create the same desperation that makes people want to come over to begin with.

You have internalized the views of the Conventional Wisdom, created by your media and political class.

Part of that it that your in laws are stupid and/or racist, for supporting TRump.

If they are wrong about that, they could be wrong about the rest of it.

Are you prepared to consider that?

Yes I am. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that has been known to concede a point. The trouble is you will have to be able to give me ironclad argumentation. Can you do that?

I note that you talk of the Wall as though it was the sole move to deal with the Illegal immigration problem. This is the exact opposite of the truth. Trump has numerous posted plans for addressing the problem from increasing the number of ICE agents to punishing employers of illegals, to the Wall.

You noted correctly. The wall is the most visible and therefore the most scary part of his plans. I note that you didn't answer the premise that the root cause of this kind of immigration is economical, and that Trumps plan inevitably worsens the Mexicans economical situation, creating more people who want to cross.

IF NOT having a large trade surplus with the US is all it takes to tank Mexico's economy, then it was a poorly led and crafted economy in the first place.


We are up for mutually beneficial trade, we are not up for being the world's bitch anymore.


I don't know that renegotiating our trade with Mexico will tank their economy, and I hope it does not.

If it does, we will still NOT be offering a safe haven for Mexico's unemployment problem. That is not their due.

 

[forkup]

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.

Yes Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions. They are taking jobs, but mostly jobs that aren't getting filled by American workers, I've seen studies that even give them a net benefit to the US economy. You can probably cite studies that deny it but that's neither here nor there.Can you show a study that confirms that Mexicans coming over are predominantly criminals, which is what he claimed? No Muslims aren't killing people, terrorists are. This is exactly the broad brush that verifies my OP of him demonising large groups of people.

so what about a wall? are you saying the US can't build a wall? You know there already is one right? what exactly are you implying?

And let me laugh at the entire write up about jobs you just posted.

[/QUOTE
This is kind of disappointing. So far we've had a cordial discussion, posting meme's trying to belittle someone's opinion doesn't seem to be called for.
Yes the US has a right to do anything they want. The world has a right to draws it's conclusions from those kind of actions, which was what my original OP was about. And the US has to be prepared that those conclusions more than likely will have far flung and more then likely unpleasant consequences for both the US and the world as a whole.

 

[sealybobo]

Color me shock but I remember quite well you love & adore Putin before Obama.

Color me shocked but I remember quit well you are retarded.

It was just last month and you cared what a foreign dictator thought but now you don't care what Germany, England, Canada or Mexico thinks? What the fuck is wrong with you?

What did I care about?

I'm lumping you in with the Republicans. Sorry Gary Johnson supporters but you are to blame for Trump too. You Jill Stein idiots as well.

I didn't vote for any of those fucks. Especially Clinton. I would have punched a stranger in the face before I voted for that war mongering corporatist

Another idiot who didn't vote? You are a bad citizen.

 

[sealybobo]

Color me shock but I remember quite well you love & adore Putin before Obama.

Color me shocked but I remember quit well you are retarded.

It was just last month and you cared what a foreign dictator thought but now you don't care what Germany, England, Canada or Mexico thinks? What the fuck is wrong with you?

What did I care about?

Last month you guys preferred a leader that Putin could do business with. But you don't give a fuck the rest of the world doesn't want to do business with Trump. Or they do but he's making them want it less and less. He's ruining our standing in the world. Fact.

You thought Obama was bad? Then you're a brain dead chimp imo.

I don't care if people get pissed at us for putting citizens first.
Obama was bad. And frankly, using an 8 year president to compare to one that has been in office for 10 days is ignorant as hell.
you're a brain dead chimp
irony

Us? I think I found one of Trump's paid chimps. You sound like you took a class from Kellyanne Conway.

Trump has done more damage in 10 days than Obama did in 8 years and it's only going to get worse.

Now I know how cons felt the last 8 years. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong but I'm sure given enough time I will be proven right.

See, I don't mind doing it your way if it will work. So I'll be fair if it's actually working or not. But you fucks said things were fine going into a great recession and said Obama sucked while he got us out. You have zero credibility. ZERO And you will make us less safe. Lower wages, etc. Watch dummy.

 

[forkup]

Sorry about that wanted to reply to something else. If you want me to finish that post I will but I fear it will meander to much of topic.

well i wondered what you think was in all of those videos? I mean you made a comment and then posted videos and none of those videos support your OP.

for Europeans someone who campaigned as Trump did, makes people remember that the last time someone got himself elected by demonising other groups in huge unruly rallies

So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?

1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.

Yes Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions. They are taking jobs, but mostly jobs that aren't getting filled by American workers, I've seen studies that even give them a net benefit to the US economy. You can probably cite studies that deny it but that's neither here nor there.Can you show a study that confirms that Mexicans coming over are predominantly criminals, which is what he claimed? No Muslims aren't killing people, terrorists are. This is exactly the broad brush that verifies my OP of him demonising large groups of people.

1. The idea that the illegals are only taking jobs Americans don't want it bs. l've done many of those jobs that Americans supposedly don't do. And my co-workers were all Americans.

2. The government is careful to NOT track crime by illegals, so data is spotty. But indications are strong that illegals bring a shit load of crime and drugs with them.

3. I'm sure the gays in Orlando, or the girls of Rotherham are grateful that you are so very careful with the feelings of Muslims, to the point of putting that ahead of the safety of your fellow citizens. How are Belgium jews loving the rise in Muslim population?

1. I said mostly not only and I'm sorry to tell you but anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it. For instance I can imagine someone working in Illinois will have less immigrants going for a job then someone living in New Mexico.
2. Ok so you have by your own admission spotty data that completely verifies."When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best," he said. "They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.".?
3. Hurting anybodies feelings doesn't come into it. ISIS is trying to sell the story of," it us against them." By demonising the entire religion, you are effectively proving them right. There are plenty of Muslims moderate or otherwise that just want to get along. But if you confirm the fears and wariness they have of the west you will push a lot of them in the camp of ISIS.

 

[TNHarley]

Color me shocked but I remember quit well you are retarded.

It was just last month and you cared what a foreign dictator thought but now you don't care what Germany, England, Canada or Mexico thinks? What the fuck is wrong with you?

What did I care about?

I'm lumping you in with the Republicans. Sorry Gary Johnson supporters but you are to blame for Trump too. You Jill Stein idiots as well.

I didn't vote for any of those fucks. Especially Clinton. I would have punched a stranger in the face before I voted for that war mongering corporatist

Another idiot who didn't vote? You are a bad citizen.

I didn't vote for them. Sorry if its un-American to not vote against your countries interests.

 

[TNHarley]

Color me shocked but I remember quit well you are retarded.

It was just last month and you cared what a foreign dictator thought but now you don't care what Germany, England, Canada or Mexico thinks? What the fuck is wrong with you?

What did I care about?

Last month you guys preferred a leader that Putin could do business with. But you don't give a fuck the rest of the world doesn't want to do business with Trump. Or they do but he's making them want it less and less. He's ruining our standing in the world. Fact.

You thought Obama was bad? Then you're a brain dead chimp imo.

I don't care if people get pissed at us for putting citizens first.
Obama was bad. And frankly, using an 8 year president to compare to one that has been in office for 10 days is ignorant as hell.
you're a brain dead chimp
irony

Us? I think I found one of Trump's paid chimps. You sound like you took a class from Kellyanne Conway.

Trump has done more damage in 10 days than Obama did in 8 years and it's only going to get worse.

Now I know how cons felt the last 8 years. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong but I'm sure given enough time I will be proven right.

See, I don't mind doing it your way if it will work. So I'll be fair if it's actually working or not. But you fucks said things were fine going into a great recession and said Obama sucked while he got us out. You have zero credibility. ZERO And you will make us less safe. Lower wages, etc. Watch dummy.

"you" Lol...
You keep calling me a dummy but you have yet to describe me. Just partisan stereotypes. Nice.