Another concealed carry owner doing the wrong thing

[2aguy]

It happens quite a lot actually:
VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers

More than you'll find verified examples of somebody saving a life with a gun.

You should really be careful using any stat from an organization that has an irrational fear of guns...the tin foil hats they wear interfere with their ability to think straight...

This is why the violence policy center is full of morons...

Texas Concealed Handgun Carriers Law-abiding Public Benefactors NCPA

Concealed handgun licensees: More law-abiding than the average Texan
In 1998 and again in 1999, the Violence Policy Center, a research organization opposed to concealed carry, released reports highlighting the numbers of Texas' concealed carry licensees who have been arrested since the law went into effect. Using Texas Department of Public Safety records, the center pointed out that Texas licensees had been arrested for nearly two crimes a day through 1998 - with more than one arrest each month for a violent crime.

In isolation these numbers paint a troubling picture. However, the reports are misleading for several reasons. First, they do not separate crimes that involve concealed weapons from those that don't. In addition, they ignore the fact that more than 55 percent of licensees arrested for violent crimes are cleared of the crimes for which they are arrested. Most tellingly, when the arrest rates of Texas' concealed carry holders are compared with those of the general population, licensees are found to be more law-abiding than the average person.

In an unpublished report, engineering statistician William Sturdevant found that concealed carry licensees had arrest rates far lower than the general population for every category of crime. For instance:

• Licensees were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public - 127 per 100,000 population versus 730 per 100,000.

• Licensees were 14 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses than the general public - 386 per 100,000 population versus 5,212 per 100,000.

• Further, the general public is 1.4 times more likely to be arrested for murder than licensees [ see Figure I ], and no licensee had been arrested for negligent manslaughter.

This is unsurprising, since the standards for getting a concealed carry license in Texas are the strictest in the nation. One must be at least 21 years of age, submit a photo and fingerprints for a background check, pay a $140 fee and take ten to fourteen hours of coursework. In addition, applicants must pass both a written test covering laws pertaining to deadly force and gun safety and a shooting accuracy test. Even with all of these hurdles, more than 200,000 Texans have received concealed carry permits.

Shootings involving licensees are rare. However, most permit holders who have wounded or killed purported assailants have not been arrested because the authorities have determined that the shootings were justified. For instance:

• Licensee Jim Eichelberg ended James Turner's brief crime spree when, in an exchange of gunfire, he shot Turner as Turner tried to carjack Eichelberg at gunpoint. Earlier, Turner had robbed another driver.

• In 1996, licensee Becky Shelton shot and killed a man who was attempting to rob and shoot her husband in their Richardson jewelry store.

Of the concealed carry licensees who have been arrested for a murder, several have been no-billed by grand juries that determined the killings were lawful. Gordon Hale III was the first Texas licensee to kill an assailant using his concealed firearm - and the first licensee arrested. Hale had been involved in a minor noninjury traffic accident that turned into an assault when the other driver, Kenny Tavai, punched Hale repeatedly in the face and then attempted to drag him out of his car through the window. Hale fired his weapon in response, killing Tavai. The Dallas district attorney's office charged Hale with murder for using what it considered excessive force in defending against Tavai. The grand jury believed that Hale justifiably feared for his life and refused to indict him.

Sooo...the violence policy center is filled with people who need to get help...and should not be looked to for information about guns...which they fear the way some people fear snakes, spiders, mice and heights...

 

[Brain357]

Yes so dangerous I've never needed a gun. Stop being so paranoid and step into reality. There are not over 2.5 million attempted homicides in the US. You'd have to be a moron to think that.

Wow this is a dangerous country. Over 2.5 million attempted homicides each year. That's a good one.

Even your incredibly inaccurate surveys don't claim 2.5 million lives saved. It is crimes stopped. A very small percent of crimes are going to lead to death. Most criminals want your money, not your life.

See, that's the thing...whenever someone takes a gun and uses it to take something from you or force you to do something, they are saying that they will kill you if you don't submit...wether they complete that threat or not is irrelevant since the threat is already made...and if you stop them from completing that threat you have saved a life...because you can't read their mind to know if they will really shoot or not and you can't see the future to know if they actually did pull the trigger on you...you have to deal with the threat, "I will kill you if you don't comply" as it actually is, not as it may be if you are lucky...

So yes...2.5 million times a year lives are saved and crimes are stopped...

No shit it's dangerous idiot. That's what we've been telling you. It's being made safer by CC holders.

 

[Brain357]

Only 17 licenses revoked? You can commit a crime with a gun and keep your concealed carry permit? Wow.

Another source that shows people who go to the trouble to get a concealed carry permit are less likely to be a problem for society than the average citizen is...

Further Proof that Concealed Carry Permit Holders Rarely Commit Crimes - WireShots.com

According to a story published in The Wichita Eagle that studied crimes committed by those with CCWs licenses in Kansas, the answer to this question is rather evident:

Of the 51,078 permits that have been issued by the state since the law took effect in 2007, 44 permit holders have been charged with a crime while using a firearm through late October, according to records provided by the Kansas Attorney General’s Office.

That works out to one charge for every 1,161 permit holders, or 0.09 percent.

The numbers squeeze even tighter when you consider that of the 44 permit holders charged, 17 licenses have been revoked because they were convicted of a crime that disqualifies them from having a permit.

Now, in juxtaposing that figure with the violent crime rate for the overall population, one can detect a noticeable difference:

The violent crime rate in Kansas in 2011 was one for every 198 people at least 21 years old, or 0.5 percent, according to the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.

It should be noted, and as The Wichita Eagle pointed out, there are limitations to looking at the numbers in such a simplified manner, but even so, it appears that concealed carry permit are overwhelmingly law-abiding folk when compared to non-permit holders.​

So again...your numbers are just not going to work out for you Brain357...

​

 

[2aguy]

Soooo, I have given you stats from several stats that show that concealed carry permit holders who carry guns are by far more law abiding than the general population and even the police....

 

[2aguy]

Another state where the concealed carry permit holders are more law abiding than the general population...

Smearing Gun Permit Holders By Omission Power Line

So do the math: if permit holders were as law-abiding as the average Minnesota citizen, you would expect them to have committed 1.2% of the 1,316,241 crimes from 2004 through 2012, or a total of a little over 16,300. Which tells us, according to the Strib’s numbers, that non-permit holders are around 15 times as likely to commit a crime as permit holders. Carry permit holders must be the most law-abiding segment of Minnesota’s population, with the possible exception of Sunday School teachers.

 

[2aguy]

Only 17 licenses revoked? You can commit a crime with a gun and keep your concealed carry permit? Wow.

Look, if we are going to discuss the issue you have to pay more attention...

the numbers squeeze even tighter when you consider that of the 44 permit holders charged, 17 licenses have been revoked because they were convicted of a crime that disqualifies them from having a permit.

only 44 people were charged...17 were actually found to be guilty of the crime, that means the rest were innocent...so they got to keep their permits, being charged doesn't mean you committed the crime, only that they want to investigate to see if you did commit a crime...please try to keep up and pay attention to what you are reading...

 

[2aguy]

I knew I saw someone debunking the tin foil hat brigade over at the violence policy center...here it is...

Massive errors in the Violence Policy Center s Concealed Carry Killers - Crime Prevention Research Center

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others. Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been responsible for 636 deaths from the entire United States over almost seven years from May 2007 to March 2014. John Lott has pointed out errors in the VPC numbers for Florida, so here let’s take the errors in just one state Michigan.
– In the Michigan state reports on concealed handgun permit holders that are cited by the VPC, 185 people died of suicides during the four reports from 2007 through 2012. That is 29 percent of the purported 636 deaths for the entire United States that the Violence Policy Center attributes to permitted concealed handguns.

But there is the problem: If you look at page 2 in the latest report, you will see that the 56 suicides do not list a cause of death. The report merely notes that permit holders committed suicide. We don’t know if they committed suicide with a gun and if it was a gun, that it was the gun that they carried concealed. Given that the overwhelming majority of these suicides were presumably at home, like most suicides, it isn’t even clear why a concealed handgun permit is relevant.

The suicide rate among permit holders in Michigan in 2010 (13.3 per 100,000 = (((43+29)/2)/270,000)*100,000) is about 18% lower than the suicide rate in the general adult population (see screen shot of suicide rate numbers from the CDC for adults in Michigan). I am using the concealed carry data for both the 2009-10 and 2010-11 years and take the average of the two because they are July to June numbers.

Wow...so if you are concerned about people comitting suicide...one way to save them is to have them get a concealed carry permit...right? Since the rate of suicide by people with concealed carry permits is 18% lower than the general population...right?

Brain357...your numbers are never going to work out to your advantage...

 

[2aguy]

Here are more stats debunking the irrational fear mongers over at the tin foil hat brigade...the violence policy center...

You thus have 12 cases for just Michigan that are triple counted. In addition, the reason that many of the arrests don’t result in conviction is because people were found to have acted in self defense. If someone uses a gun defensively in public, they are going to be arrested and retained by police until an investigation has been done. Including those cases and news stories about those arrests, thus double counts cases that shouldn’t even be included in the total — if anything they should be counted as benefits from concealed carry, not costs.

Another case from Michigan probably illustrates an instance where a permit holder was behaving properly.
Alrando Davis, permit holder who probably was defending himself against someone without a permit, May 24, 2009

– Even though there are a lot of errors in the VPC numbers, assume that the VPC claim of 636 deaths (including suicides) are correct, one has to note that there are over 11 million concealed handgun permit holder in the US right now. An annual number of deaths of 90, the rate is 0.00083%. The rate of non-suicide deaths is obviously even lower, 0.00058%.

– A comparison can also be made to the rate that police are arrested or convicted of firearms related crimes. Police were convicted of firearms violations during the period from January 1, 2005 through December 31, 2007 at a rate of about 0.007%.

concealed carry permit holders are even more law abiding than police officers....wow...

 

[2aguy]

Here is another example of where the tin foil hats of the people at the violence policy center interfere with their math skills...

The VPC claims that the Michigan State Police show in their five reports between 2007-08 and 2011-12 that murder cases were as follows: Pending 20 Convicted 14. In fact, if you look at the reports themselves you find:

2007–08: Pending 5, Convicted 0
2008–09: Pending 0, Convicted 1
2009–10: Pending 1, Convicted 2
2010–11: Pending 5, Convicted 4
2011–12: Pending 3, Convicted 4
Total: Pending 14, Convicted 11

In other words, during 2007–08, five cases were pending and there were no convictions. The Violence Policy Center makes several fundamental mistakes. First, it can’t add simple numbers up correctly. While the VPC claims 20 pending cases and 14 convictions, the Michigan State Police report a total of 14 and 11 cases respectively.

If you include both pending and convicted cases for all these years, you are going to obviously double count cases.

 

[2aguy]

Here is information that shows police officers are 3x more likely to commit homicide than concealed carry permit holders...

GUN WATCH Concealed Carry Permit Holders are One Third as Likely to Commit Murder as Police Officers

When we look at the numbers for sworn officers, I found 52 domestic homicides committed by sworn police officers from 2008 - 2011. For the police, nationally from 2008 through 2011, the rate is 52/2,818,924 or 1.854/100,000 domestic homicides per 100,000 police per year.

For the data that we have, police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder.

If we include all unjustified homicides (suicides were not included) found in Florida by the VPC for CCW holders for the entire four years, the rate is only 27/2,400,713 or 1.125 per 100,000 population per year. This is comparable with the homicide rates in developed western European countries. It is 61% of the rate for police officers for domestic homicides alone.

Just to remind people...I am not trying to bash cops here...I am trying to show how dumb the anti gun arguments,are...

 

[MXdad]

My argument is that you can't compare banning guns to cars because cars are vastly important to our country. Take away guns and most people wouldn't even notice. People use their cars every day. Most gun owners target shoot once in a while or hunt when it's season, but not necessary uses. Lose your way to work and you are in trouble.

I shoot 4-5 times a week, have a gun on or around me 7 days a week......Yep I would miss it. The main problem with your argument is............

You don't have a right to own a car, no matter how important you may think it is.

I have a right to keep and bear arms, that right is going no where. Get used to it.

I will continue to carry and the hoplophobes can continue pissing their pants, over the fear of seeing a weapon

 

[MXdad]

Yes for some tiny part of the population they are needed. For a huge percent of the population cars and trucks are needed. That is my point. You can't compare these two things. While people with cars can live fine without a gun, most people with guns still need a car.

Exactly you cant compare the two

One is a right

One is a privileged

Guess which one is a right and is going to stick around

 

[MXdad]

Ah now you are using the 2.5 million made up number. You started out using the 250k-370k number or whatever. Use whatever fake numbers you want, it really doesn't matter. I am pretty old and have not once needed a gun, but I use my car daily. The two aren't comparable.

I have a right to own a gun

You don't have a right to own a car

How does that make the hoplophobes feel?

 

[MXdad]

It happens quite a lot actually:
VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers

More than you'll find verified examples of somebody saving a life with a gun.

Come on please LOL you are referencing Josh Sugarmann's group?

They have been proved more times than I can count to having put out bogus numbers. If you want to play with the big boys you gotta up your game

The VPC LOL

Here are just a couple of examples of the Bull Shit put out by this group

How the Violence Policy Center deceives with numbers The Oregon Catalyst

Bogus Gun-Control Numbers National Review Online

FAIL Violence Policy Center Is Caught Fabricating Anti-Gun Data. Again. Still. - Bearing Arms


Please use more bogus examples your fun

 

[MXdad]

The number of deaths at CC holders hands is larger than you will every verify lives saved. You put very little value in life don't you?

Your wrong you are relying on VPC numbers and you can't prove them, but don't fret neither can they LOL

 

[MXdad]

Ahhh...I see your problem...and theirs...they take any incident involving a shooting between two people and say it was because they had a concealed carry permit...vs....people who probably had a history of violence long before they had a gun....they fail to compare normal people vs. people who are already criminally violent....

He is quoting numbers from VPC, they are well know for putting out bogus number they can't defend. But as with this poster we see the sheeple lap it up because they are not capable of looking into the numbers and have to rely on their talking heads for direction

 

[MXdad]

Yes so dangerous I've never needed a gun. Stop being so paranoid and step into reality. There are not over 2.5 million attempted homicides in the US. You'd have to be a moron to think that.

You never explained to me why those evil black ARs scare you so much

 

[MXdad]

Here is another example of where the tin foil hats of the people at the violence policy center interfere with their math skills...

The VPC claims that the Michigan State Police show in their five reports between 2007-08 and 2011-12 that murder cases were as follows: Pending 20 Convicted 14. In fact, if you look at the reports themselves you find:

2007–08: Pending 5, Convicted 0
2008–09: Pending 0, Convicted 1
2009–10: Pending 1, Convicted 2
2010–11: Pending 5, Convicted 4
2011–12: Pending 3, Convicted 4
Total: Pending 14, Convicted 11

In other words, during 2007–08, five cases were pending and there were no convictions. The Violence Policy Center makes several fundamental mistakes. First, it can’t add simple numbers up correctly. While the VPC claims 20 pending cases and 14 convictions, the Michigan State Police report a total of 14 and 11 cases respectively.

If you include both pending and convicted cases for all these years, you are going to obviously double count cases.

Good work Billc I see you were all over the bogus numbers from VPC before I read his post.

Its hard to believe there are actually folks in this world that will take any bogus claim that is spoon fed to them and run with it without vetting it for themselves.

The really scary part is that those folks vote

 

[2aguy]

Your welcome MXdad...the issue is not working for the anti gunners...our founding fathers saw them coming over 200 years ago and put our rights on paper, and now the numbers just will not support their claims of death and destruction when regular, law abiding people own and carry guns...our problem...the courts...they can side step all of our safe guards with one Supreme Court appointment...and screw things up with appellate court appointments...that is why 2014 is so important...people don't want to vote for the Republicans...and I appreciate that, I don't like them either...but right now...when it counts...they are the only ones who can break up the power of the democrats in the Senate and maybe, just maybe...prevent obama or hilary from appointing a hard core leftist to the Supreme court...obama is already packing the appellate courts with his minions...see the latest from the D.C. circuit...

 

[SixFoot]

Yes so dangerous I've never needed a gun. Stop being so paranoid and step into reality. There are not over 2.5 million attempted homicides in the US. You'd have to be a moron to think that.

You never explained to me why those evil black ARs scare you so much