Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[Moonglow]

What Christian principles allowed the practice of genocide on the Native Americans?

What Christian Principles? I can't think of one.

Hypocrisy, Greed, Selfishness, Hate, Prejudice, are not Christian Principles. Their was nothing Christian about the Trail Of Tears.

Exactly. Another strawman our esteemed leftist friends build to use as diversion from the point that the Founders built a nation on Christian principles but made certain that no religious group, Christian or not, would have power over any other religious group nor would the federal government have any power over any person or group respective to religion. A Christian nation built on Christian principles that was not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation but a nation of mostly Christian people.

As we have already shown, the Founders were mostly abolitionists when it came to slavery, but they would not allow slavery to kill the new nation. The legacy of those same Founders were people of like mind who eventually were able to end slavery. And most of them did so because of their Christian values.

Oppression of black people, Native Americans, the Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, and any number of other groups in this country did not arise out of Christian values but were the antithesis of Christian principles. And in my opinion, it was mostly Christian influence within the fabric of our society that has accomplished the tolerance and acceptance that we enjoy today.

The early colonies were theocratic establishments and were not tolerant of even violating blue laws or sabath laws.

 

[Foxfyre]

What Christian Principles? I can't think of one.

Hypocrisy, Greed, Selfishness, Hate, Prejudice, are not Christian Principles. Their was nothing Christian about the Trail Of Tears.

Exactly. Another strawman our esteemed leftist friends build to use as diversion from the point that the Founders built a nation on Christian principles but made certain that no religious group, Christian or not, would have power over any other religious group nor would the federal government have any power over any person or group respective to religion. A Christian nation built on Christian principles that was not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation but a nation of mostly Christian people.

As we have already shown, the Founders were mostly abolitionists when it came to slavery, but they would not allow slavery to kill the new nation. The legacy of those same Founders were people of like mind who eventually were able to end slavery. And most of them did so because of their Christian values.

Oppression of black people, Native Americans, the Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, and any number of other groups in this country did not arise out of Christian values but were the antithesis of Christian principles. And in my opinion, it was mostly Christian influence within the fabric of our society that has accomplished the tolerance and acceptance that we enjoy today.

The early colonies were theocratic establishments and were not tolerant of even violating blue laws or sabath laws.

There were a few theocracies within the colonies yes. The Constitution spells out the duties of the Federal government but, when implemented as the Founders intended, it secures our rights and then leaves the people free to form whatever society they wish to have. Some wished to have a society of only religious people of like mind with themselves and some were unconscionably brutal in enforcing that.

However freedom is an amazing thing. Given free rein, a free people are not trapped in any system and can make better choices. Within 25 years of the ratification of the Constitution, not a single theocracy existed anywhere. Why? Because Christian conscience won out. The people could see superior Christian values within the more tolerant societies and sought that for themselves.

There are small pockets of exceptions, but left alone, in my opinion Christians who understand and practice Christian principles will generally get around to doing the right thing.

It is also important to understand that not everybody who calls himself/herself Christian follows Christian principles, and the Church is made up not of saints who are perfect but of imperfect humans. And a few of them will be evil and/or will do evil things.

 

[Intense]

What Christian Principles? I can't think of one.

Hypocrisy, Greed, Selfishness, Hate, Prejudice, are not Christian Principles. Their was nothing Christian about the Trail Of Tears.

Exactly. Another strawman our esteemed leftist friends build to use as diversion from the point that the Founders built a nation on Christian principles but made certain that no religious group, Christian or not, would have power over any other religious group nor would the federal government have any power over any person or group respective to religion. A Christian nation built on Christian principles that was not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation but a nation of mostly Christian people.

As we have already shown, the Founders were mostly abolitionists when it came to slavery, but they would not allow slavery to kill the new nation. The legacy of those same Founders were people of like mind who eventually were able to end slavery. And most of them did so because of their Christian values.

Oppression of black people, Native Americans, the Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, and any number of other groups in this country did not arise out of Christian values but were the antithesis of Christian principles. And in my opinion, it was mostly Christian influence within the fabric of our society that has accomplished the tolerance and acceptance that we enjoy today.

The early colonies were theocratic establishments and were not tolerant of even violating blue laws or sabath laws.

This surprises you? What Government was not, in that time?

 

[Intense]

Exactly. Another strawman our esteemed leftist friends build to use as diversion from the point that the Founders built a nation on Christian principles but made certain that no religious group, Christian or not, would have power over any other religious group nor would the federal government have any power over any person or group respective to religion. A Christian nation built on Christian principles that was not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation but a nation of mostly Christian people.

As we have already shown, the Founders were mostly abolitionists when it came to slavery, but they would not allow slavery to kill the new nation. The legacy of those same Founders were people of like mind who eventually were able to end slavery. And most of them did so because of their Christian values.

Oppression of black people, Native Americans, the Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, and any number of other groups in this country did not arise out of Christian values but were the antithesis of Christian principles. And in my opinion, it was mostly Christian influence within the fabric of our society that has accomplished the tolerance and acceptance that we enjoy today.

The early colonies were theocratic establishments and were not tolerant of even violating blue laws or sabath laws.

There were a few theocracies within the colonies yes. The Constitution spells out the duties of the Federal government but, when implemented as the Founders intended, it secures our rights and then leaves the people free to form whatever society they wish to have. Some wished to have a society of only religious people of like mind with themselves and some were unconscionably brutal in enforcing that.

However freedom is an amazing thing. Given free rein, a free people are not trapped in any system and can make better choices. Within 25 years of the ratification of the Constitution, not a single theocracy existed anywhere. Why? Because Christian conscience won out. The people could see superior Christian values within the more tolerant societies and sought that for themselves.

There are small pockets of exceptions, but left alone, in my opinion Christians who understand and practice Christian principles will generally get around to doing the right thing.

It is also important to understand that not everybody who calls himself/herself Christian follows Christian principles, and the Church is made up not of saints who are perfect but of imperfect human. And a few of them will be evil.

We were an experiment, something different than anything done before, Unalienable Right/Inalienable Right, handed down from Locke, was the Root of the Declaration Of Independence.

 

[Intense]

I hear over and over and over and over again:
"This nation was founded on Christian principles"
"The Founders all practiced those Christian principles and society followed"
Ok, then how come slavery was accepted, supported and flourished with the full support of ALL OF THE FOUNDERS?
Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.
The fact is that The Church of England, IN ENGLAND, led the abolitionist movement over there as their government, the monarchy, was heavily influenced by THE CHURCH.
The Founders did not want that influence in government, were the liberals and radicals of their day, fought and defeated the church backed Torries and red coats and continued slavery for ANOTHER 190 YEARS.
Being the men of "Christian principles" they were.

David Barton - 07/2011

Even though the issue of slavery is often raised as a discrediting charge against the Founding Fathers, the historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by, the Founding Fathers; slavery had been introduced to America nearly two centuries before the Founders. As President of Congress Henry Laurens explained:

I abhor slavery. I was born in a country where slavery had been established by British Kings and Parliaments as well as by the laws of the country ages before my existence. . . . In former days there was no combating the prejudices of men supported by interest; the day, I hope, is approaching when, from principles of gratitude as well as justice, every man will strive to be foremost in showing his readiness to comply with the Golden Rule ["do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12]. 1

Prior to the time of the Founding Fathers, there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery. John Jay identified the point at which the change in attitude toward slavery began:

Prior to the great Revolution, the great majority . . . of our people had been so long accustomed to the practice and convenience of having slaves that very few among them even doubted the propriety and rectitude of it. 2

The Revolution was the turning point in the national attitude–and it was the Founding Fathers who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, many of the Founders vigorously complained against the fact that Great Britain had forcefully imposed upon the Colonies the evil of slavery. For example, Thomas Jefferson heavily criticized that British policy:

He [King George III] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. . . . Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce [that is, he has opposed efforts to prohibit the slave trade]. 3

Benjamin Franklin, in a 1773 letter to Dean Woodward, confirmed that whenever the Americans had attempted to end slavery, the British government had indeed thwarted those attempts. Franklin explained that . . .

. . . a disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed. 4

Further confirmation that even the Virginia Founders were not responsible for slavery, but actually tried to dismantle the institution, was provided by John Quincy Adams (known as the "hell-hound of abolition" for his extensive efforts against that evil). Adams explained:

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers and Slavery

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.

John Quincy Adams.

How Many of the Colonies or States were Free States? How many were Slave States? Why was the issue not better handled? We probably would have ended up as two separate entities fighting for Independence against Brittan.

 

[Foxfyre]

The early colonies were theocratic establishments and were not tolerant of even violating blue laws or sabath laws.

There were a few theocracies within the colonies yes. The Constitution spells out the duties of the Federal government but, when implemented as the Founders intended, it secures our rights and then leaves the people free to form whatever society they wish to have. Some wished to have a society of only religious people of like mind with themselves and some were unconscionably brutal in enforcing that.

However freedom is an amazing thing. Given free rein, a free people are not trapped in any system and can make better choices. Within 25 years of the ratification of the Constitution, not a single theocracy existed anywhere. Why? Because Christian conscience won out. The people could see superior Christian values within the more tolerant societies and sought that for themselves.

There are small pockets of exceptions, but left alone, in my opinion Christians who understand and practice Christian principles will generally get around to doing the right thing.

It is also important to understand that not everybody who calls himself/herself Christian follows Christian principles, and the Church is made up not of saints who are perfect but of imperfect human. And a few of them will be evil.

We were an experiment, something different than anything done before, Unalienable Right/Inalienable Right, handed down from Locke, was the Root of the Declaration Of Independence.

Exactly. The USA was an attempt at something never before tried: a nation in which the unalienable rights of the people would be secured and then the people would govern themselves. It was not anarchy because the law had consequences for those who would violate another's rights within that society, but a freedom the world had never seen. And it produced the most free, most classless, most productive, most innovative, most prosperous nation that had ever existed.

Jefferson was well versed in John Locke but I think it was also Thomas Hobbes and other of the 'Enlightenment' philosophers who caught his imagination and that guided some of the language he used.

I think he would be angry, saddened, and horrified now to see how so many clamor for a 'king' to rule over them after he and others risked so much to give us freedom to govern ourselves.

A theocracy would have the same effect as a 'monarchy' in destroying the basic concept that is the United States of America.

Neither should be acceptable to freedom loving people.

 

[Gadawg73]

Anyone with a brain knows that David Barton is a liar and a fraud.

 

[Intense]

Anyone with a brain knows that David Barton is a liar and a fraud.

Link?
You seem to be real good at putting up hoops. Put up or shut up.
What exactly is your need to say stupid shit?

 

[Gadawg73]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

 

[Intense]

There were a few theocracies within the colonies yes. The Constitution spells out the duties of the Federal government but, when implemented as the Founders intended, it secures our rights and then leaves the people free to form whatever society they wish to have. Some wished to have a society of only religious people of like mind with themselves and some were unconscionably brutal in enforcing that.

However freedom is an amazing thing. Given free rein, a free people are not trapped in any system and can make better choices. Within 25 years of the ratification of the Constitution, not a single theocracy existed anywhere. Why? Because Christian conscience won out. The people could see superior Christian values within the more tolerant societies and sought that for themselves.

There are small pockets of exceptions, but left alone, in my opinion Christians who understand and practice Christian principles will generally get around to doing the right thing.

It is also important to understand that not everybody who calls himself/herself Christian follows Christian principles, and the Church is made up not of saints who are perfect but of imperfect human. And a few of them will be evil.

We were an experiment, something different than anything done before, Unalienable Right/Inalienable Right, handed down from Locke, was the Root of the Declaration Of Independence.

Exactly. The USA was an attempt at something never before tried: a nation in which the unalienable rights of the people would be secured and then the people would govern themselves. It was not anarchy because the law had consequences for those who would violate another's rights within that society, but a freedom the world had never seen. And it produced the most free, most classless, most productive, most innovative, most prosperous nation that had ever existed.

Jefferson was well versed in John Locke but I think it was also Thomas Hobbes and other of the 'Enlightenment' philosophers who caught his imagination and that guided some of the language he used.

I think he would be angry, saddened, and horrified now to see how so many clamor for a 'king' to rule over them after he and others risked so much to give us freedom to govern ourselves.

A theocracy would have the same effect as a 'monarchy' in destroying the basic concept that is the United States of America.

Neither should be acceptable to freedom loving people.

Life, Liberty, Property, Unalienable Right, Nonviolent Civil Disobedience, Separation of Church and State ( Our obligation to God in matters of Conscience, taking President,) are Locke.

 

[Immanuel]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

Link please.

Here he does not deny the Holocaust:

http://www.davidbarton.net/2010/04/09/americas-first-publication-law-by-david-barton/

While knowing and applying Biblical guidelines certainly did not prevent all atrocities, it indisputably reduced them. Despite the fact that critics point to a few genuine atrocities perpetrated, or even allegedly perpetrated, in the name of Christianity (e.g., the witch trials in Salem, Massachusetts, and across the rest of the world; the expulsion and torture of Moors; the Inquisition; and even the World War II Holocaust (which some Jews attribute to Christians since Hitler was at one time a member of a Christian church), it is nevertheless irrefutable that those without Christian influence have committed countless more atrocities.

(Despite the fact that some Holocaust survivors believe Hitler to have been a Christian, recent documentation made available from the OSS (the noted intelligence agency of World War II), proves that Hitler was anti-Christian and that the Nazis engaged in a systematic campaign to eradicate European Christianity. 30 Furthermore, Hitler killed more than twice as many Gentiles as Jews, and both he and the Nazi party were linked to anti-Biblical occultism.

If one tabulates the loss of lives occasioned by “Christian” conduct (excluding Hitler, since it is proved that he was anti-Christian), the total which may be laid at the doorstep of Christianity over the past two thousand years is well under 5 million; however, the number of lives lost at the hands of non- and anti-Christian leaders in just the 20th century alone is over one-hundred million. Consider the 62 million killed during the 20th century by Soviet Communists; the 35 million by Communist Chinese; the 1.7 million by the Vietnamese Communists; the 1 million in the Polish Ethnic Cleansing; the 1 million in Yugoslavia; the 1.7 million in North Korea, 33 etc. – all non- or anti-Christian regimes.

I have to say that I knew nothing about David Barton before this thread, but every time I read a claim by Barton haters and I investigate the claim, I find that either his haters are down right liars such as TDM or apparently mistaken as yourself.

Immie

 

[Gadawg73]

Anyone with a brain knows that David Barton is a liar and a fraud.

Link?
You seem to be real good at putting up hoops. Put up or shut up.
What exactly is your need to say stupid shit?

Barton has acknowledged many times, specifically in his "Uncomfirmed Qutations" that he misrepresents and makes up what the Founders supposedly said. He maintains the made up quotes he cites are "completely consistent" with the views of the Founders.
Barton has admitted he has NO primary sources for the quotes he uses from Madison, Franklin, Jefferson and Supreme Court decisions.
And the gullible and naive fools believe it. Are you one?
Barton is the worst kind of fraud. You love his predetermined account of history because that fraud fits your ideology.
Facts be damned.
This is so easy it was like playing D-II schools at Sanford Stadium winning 62-7.
Are you really this ignorant?

 

[Gadawg73]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

Link please.

Immie

I have a link that states that Elvis is alive in Hahira, Ga., is working for the CIA in Afghanistan and cooks part time at the Waffle House.

You go find it yourself and see what is real. Are you incapable of doing your own research?

 

[Intense]

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.

I believe the Holocaust happened. That's all you need to know on the matter. We are not discussing the Holocaust, or are you that clueless. Maybe you could grow a pair of balls and refute what I posted. I can understand if it is beyond you, most things are.

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.

I'm sure these words are in Barton's vocabulary, so maybe you should not use them. Fucking Idiot.

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.

John Quincy Adams.

John Quincy Adams (July 11, 1767-February 23, 1848) spent most of his youth and adult life in public service to the United States, as senator, diplomat, secretary of state, president, and congressman. He made his greatest contribution to his country after his presidency, while serving in the United States House of Representatives as a staunch opponent of slavery and expansionist war.

John Quincy Adams

Ben Franklin.

"A disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed." - Letter to Rev. Dean Woodward, April 10, 1773 Ben Franklin Quotes

 

[Gadawg73]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

Link please.

Here he does not deny the Holocaust:

America's First Publication Law Part 1 by David Barton | David Barton

While knowing and applying Biblical guidelines certainly did not prevent all atrocities, it indisputably reduced them. Despite the fact that critics point to a few genuine atrocities perpetrated, or even allegedly perpetrated, in the name of Christianity (e.g., the witch trials in Salem, Massachusetts, and across the rest of the world; the expulsion and torture of Moors; the Inquisition; and even the World War II Holocaust (which some Jews attribute to Christians since Hitler was at one time a member of a Christian church), it is nevertheless irrefutable that those without Christian influence have committed countless more atrocities.

(Despite the fact that some Holocaust survivors believe Hitler to have been a Christian, recent documentation made available from the OSS (the noted intelligence agency of World War II), proves that Hitler was anti-Christian and that the Nazis engaged in a systematic campaign to eradicate European Christianity. 30 Furthermore, Hitler killed more than twice as many Gentiles as Jews, and both he and the Nazi party were linked to anti-Biblical occultism.

If one tabulates the loss of lives occasioned by “Christian” conduct (excluding Hitler, since it is proved that he was anti-Christian), the total which may be laid at the doorstep of Christianity over the past two thousand years is well under 5 million; however, the number of lives lost at the hands of non- and anti-Christian leaders in just the 20th century alone is over one-hundred million. Consider the 62 million killed during the 20th century by Soviet Communists; the 35 million by Communist Chinese; the 1.7 million by the Vietnamese Communists; the 1 million in the Polish Ethnic Cleansing; the 1 million in Yugoslavia; the 1.7 million in North Korea, 33 etc. – all non- or anti-Christian regimes.

I have to say that I knew nothing about David Barton before this thread, but every time I read a claim by Barton haters and I investigate the claim, I find that either his haters are down right liars such as TDM or apparently mistaken as yourself.

Immie

So making up "quotes" that the Founders never stated, not stating that these quotes were made up when doing so and only admitting that they were made up AFTER YOU ARE CAUGHT, is acceptable to you?
That is 100% David Barton and he has admitted it.
And calling him out for it is being a " Barton hater"?

I LOVE IT!!!
Are you folks this gullible?

 

[Immanuel]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

Link please.

Immie

I have a link that states that Elvis is alive in Hahira, Ga., is working for the CIA in Afghanistan and cooks part time at the Waffle House.

You go find it yourself and see what is real. Are you incapable of doing your own research?

Actually, I have found several sites that tell me you are mistaken. Either that or you are joining leagues with TDM and I would prefer to think better of you.

I respect your posts, but I think you have been caught up in a mistake on this one and you cannot prove your point. I can find nothing at all that is not the opinion of some one else that indicates that Mr. Barton denies the Holocaust.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

Link please.

Here he does not deny the Holocaust:

America's First Publication Law Part 1 by David Barton | David Barton

While knowing and applying Biblical guidelines certainly did not prevent all atrocities, it indisputably reduced them. Despite the fact that critics point to a few genuine atrocities perpetrated, or even allegedly perpetrated, in the name of Christianity (e.g., the witch trials in Salem, Massachusetts, and across the rest of the world; the expulsion and torture of Moors; the Inquisition; and even the World War II Holocaust (which some Jews attribute to Christians since Hitler was at one time a member of a Christian church), it is nevertheless irrefutable that those without Christian influence have committed countless more atrocities.

(Despite the fact that some Holocaust survivors believe Hitler to have been a Christian, recent documentation made available from the OSS (the noted intelligence agency of World War II), proves that Hitler was anti-Christian and that the Nazis engaged in a systematic campaign to eradicate European Christianity. 30 Furthermore, Hitler killed more than twice as many Gentiles as Jews, and both he and the Nazi party were linked to anti-Biblical occultism.

If one tabulates the loss of lives occasioned by “Christian” conduct (excluding Hitler, since it is proved that he was anti-Christian), the total which may be laid at the doorstep of Christianity over the past two thousand years is well under 5 million; however, the number of lives lost at the hands of non- and anti-Christian leaders in just the 20th century alone is over one-hundred million. Consider the 62 million killed during the 20th century by Soviet Communists; the 35 million by Communist Chinese; the 1.7 million by the Vietnamese Communists; the 1 million in the Polish Ethnic Cleansing; the 1 million in Yugoslavia; the 1.7 million in North Korea, 33 etc. – all non- or anti-Christian regimes.

I have to say that I knew nothing about David Barton before this thread, but every time I read a claim by Barton haters and I investigate the claim, I find that either his haters are down right liars such as TDM or apparently mistaken as yourself.

Immie

So making up "quotes" that the Founders never stated, not stating that these quotes were made up when doing so and only admitting that they were made up AFTER YOU ARE CAUGHT, is acceptable to you?
That is 100% David Barton and he has admitted it.
And calling him out for it is being a " Barton hater"?

I LOVE IT!!!
Are you folks this gullible?

I've found nothing to prove that he made up quotes from the founders. You evidently think that you making such a claim makes it true. I don't know you well enough to believe that and since you don't seem to have the ability to back that up with facts, I have to assume you are wrong.

Immie

 

[Intense]

David Barton claims the Holocaust never happened and Indense quotes him.
I thought we had most of the lunatics down south here. Apparently not.

Link please.

Here he does not deny the Holocaust:

America's First Publication Law Part 1 by David Barton | David Barton

While knowing and applying Biblical guidelines certainly did not prevent all atrocities, it indisputably reduced them. Despite the fact that critics point to a few genuine atrocities perpetrated, or even allegedly perpetrated, in the name of Christianity (e.g., the witch trials in Salem, Massachusetts, and across the rest of the world; the expulsion and torture of Moors; the Inquisition; and even the World War II Holocaust (which some Jews attribute to Christians since Hitler was at one time a member of a Christian church), it is nevertheless irrefutable that those without Christian influence have committed countless more atrocities.

(Despite the fact that some Holocaust survivors believe Hitler to have been a Christian, recent documentation made available from the OSS (the noted intelligence agency of World War II), proves that Hitler was anti-Christian and that the Nazis engaged in a systematic campaign to eradicate European Christianity. 30 Furthermore, Hitler killed more than twice as many Gentiles as Jews, and both he and the Nazi party were linked to anti-Biblical occultism.

If one tabulates the loss of lives occasioned by “Christian” conduct (excluding Hitler, since it is proved that he was anti-Christian), the total which may be laid at the doorstep of Christianity over the past two thousand years is well under 5 million; however, the number of lives lost at the hands of non- and anti-Christian leaders in just the 20th century alone is over one-hundred million. Consider the 62 million killed during the 20th century by Soviet Communists; the 35 million by Communist Chinese; the 1.7 million by the Vietnamese Communists; the 1 million in the Polish Ethnic Cleansing; the 1 million in Yugoslavia; the 1.7 million in North Korea, 33 etc. – all non- or anti-Christian regimes.

I have to say that I knew nothing about David Barton before this thread, but every time I read a claim by Barton haters and I investigate the claim, I find that either his haters are down right liars such as TDM or apparently mistaken as yourself.

Immie

So making up "quotes" that the Founders never stated, not stating that these quotes were made up when doing so and only admitting that they were made up AFTER YOU ARE CAUGHT, is acceptable to you?
That is 100% David Barton and he has admitted it.
And calling him out for it is being a " Barton hater"?

I LOVE IT!!!
Are you folks this gullible?

You are an idiot and a fraud. I've posted about two Founders now, with links independent of Barton, that corroborate his link. You still have not backed up your claims. That makes you exactly what you are accusing him of. This Thread has been side tracked and obstructed by you enough, Troll. Either find something relevant to contribute, back up your claims, or be ignored and seen as the intellectual fraud that you are. You want to start a thread on Barton, go for it.

 

[Foxfyre]

We were an experiment, something different than anything done before, Unalienable Right/Inalienable Right, handed down from Locke, was the Root of the Declaration Of Independence.

Exactly. The USA was an attempt at something never before tried: a nation in which the unalienable rights of the people would be secured and then the people would govern themselves. It was not anarchy because the law had consequences for those who would violate another's rights within that society, but a freedom the world had never seen. And it produced the most free, most classless, most productive, most innovative, most prosperous nation that had ever existed.

Jefferson was well versed in John Locke but I think it was also Thomas Hobbes and other of the 'Enlightenment' philosophers who caught his imagination and that guided some of the language he used.

I think he would be angry, saddened, and horrified now to see how so many clamor for a 'king' to rule over them after he and others risked so much to give us freedom to govern ourselves.

A theocracy would have the same effect as a 'monarchy' in destroying the basic concept that is the United States of America.

Neither should be acceptable to freedom loving people.

Life, Liberty, Property, Unalienable Right, Nonviolent Civil Disobedience, Separation of Church and State ( Our obligation to God in matters of Conscience, taking President,) are Locke.

I'm not arguing against Locke as important to the debate. I am just pointing that that Jefferson's (and the other Founders') education was not limited to Locke but was influenced by many of the 'enlightenment' philosophers and earlier ones including Aristotle, Cicero, Machiavelli, and Sidney. And Locke himself was also educated in and influenced by many of these same writings.

I guess I am reluctant to give the impression that Jefferson or any of the Founders were merely channeling John Locke as I do not believe that was the case. Did Locke factor significantly into their overall education? Of couse he did. And, in my opinion, that was a good thing.

 

[Gadawg73]

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.

I believe the Holocaust happened. That's all you need to know on the matter. We are not discussing the Holocaust, or are you that clueless. Maybe you could grow a pair of balls and refute what I posted. I can understand if it is beyond you, most things are.

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.

I'm sure these words are in Barton's vocabulary, so maybe you should not use them. Fucking Idiot.

Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.

John Quincy Adams.

John Quincy Adams (July 11, 1767-February 23, 1848) spent most of his youth and adult life in public service to the United States, as senator, diplomat, secretary of state, president, and congressman. He made his greatest contribution to his country after his presidency, while serving in the United States House of Representatives as a staunch opponent of slavery and expansionist war.

John Quincy Adams

Ben Franklin.

"A disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed." - Letter to Rev. Dean Woodward, April 10, 1773 Ben Franklin Quotes

I have found evidence that northern seminary schools did call for the end of slavery. That was from the faculty and students. Of course they were called liberal fanatics for doing so. I have located other indications of strong support from some Quaker influenced Methodist and Baptist congregations up north.
Of course the southerners fought that. The southerners argued that the Bible stated no objections to slavery in their LITERAL interpretation.
All of the anti slavery abolitionists stated as their platform: all of the proponents of slavery that quote the literal interpretation of The Bible are "basing their assumptions on extreme literalism" when it comes to the support of slavery.
I do see Methodists forming their own anti extreme literalism movement in the 1840s up north. They followed the Quaker example.
Funny how we have those that use the "extreme literalism" defense when the subject is slavery but run from that interpretation of The Bible like a monkey on fire when the subject is homosexuality.