Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[koshergrl]

Southerners are not the world, and represented a tiny fraction of the church. And in fact, many Southern christians did support abolition.

Christians have always been the first wave of people (and martyrs) who move to defend people from human rights violations. This is true when it comes to slavery, and the overturning of any oppressive government, since Christ.

 

[Intense]

The Underground Railroad, a vast network of people who helped fugitive slaves escape to the North and to Canada, was not run by any single organization or person. Rather, it consisted of many individuals -- many whites but predominently black -- who knew only of the local efforts to aid fugitives and not of the overall operation. Still, it effectively moved hundreds of slaves northward each year -- according to one estimate, the South lost 100,000 slaves between 1810 and 1850.

An organized system to assist runaway slaves seems to have begun towards the end of the 18th century. In 1786 George Washington complained about how one of his runaway slaves was helped by a "society of Quakers, formed for such purposes." The system grew, and around 1831 it was dubbed "The Underground Railroad," after the then emerging steam railroads. The system even used terms used in railroading: the homes and businesses where fugitives would rest and eat were called "stations" and "depots" and were run by "stationmasters," those who contributed money or goods were "stockholders," and the "conductor" was responsible for moving fugitives from one station to the next.

For the slave, running away to the North was anything but easy. The first step was to escape from the slaveholder. For many slaves, this meant relying on his or her own resources. Sometimes a "conductor," posing as a slave, would enter a plantation and then guide the runaways northward. The fugitives would move at night. They would generally travel between 10 and 20 miles to the next station, where they would rest and eat, hiding in barns and other out-of-the-way places. While they waited, a message would be sent to the next station to alert its stationmaster.

The fugitives would also travel by train and boat -- conveyances that sometimes had to be paid for. Money was also needed to improve the appearance of the runaways -- a black man, woman, or child in tattered clothes would invariably attract suspicious eyes. This money was donated by individuals and also raised by various groups, including vigilance committees.

Vigilance committees sprang up in the larger towns and cities of the North, most prominently in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston. In addition to soliciting money, the organizations provided food, lodging and money, and helped the fugitives settle into a community by helping them find jobs and providing letters of recommendation.

The Underground Railroad had many notable participants, including John Fairfield in Ohio, the son of a slaveholding family, who made many daring rescues, Levi Coffin, a Quaker who assisted more than 3,000 slaves, and Harriet Tubman, who made 19 trips into the South and escorted over 300 slaves to freedom.
The Underground Railroad

 

[Gadawg73]

Southerners are not the world, and represented a tiny fraction of the church. And in fact, many Southern christians did support abolition.

Christians have always been the first wave of people (and martyrs) who move to defend people from human rights violations. This is true when it comes to slavery, and the overturning of any oppressive government, since Christ.

No shit?
Having been raised in the deep south all of my life, grew up during integration in the late 50s and early 60s, played 15 seasons of football with many blacks that were my team mates and seeing them booed and spit on during games, I know first hand how oppressive southerners were. Some players received death threats. We played at a large school west of here and they had a black stuffed dummy with a noose on it's throat hanging from the goal post before the game. Of course our guy ran for over 100 yards that game and I dominated as usual.
Let me tell you: Christians that supported integration in the late 50s in the south were almost NONEXISTENT.
FACT. I was there and LIVED IT.

 

[Gadawg73]

The Underground Railroad, a vast network of people who helped fugitive slaves escape to the North and to Canada, was not run by any single organization or person. Rather, it consisted of many individuals -- many whites but predominently black -- who knew only of the local efforts to aid fugitives and not of the overall operation. Still, it effectively moved hundreds of slaves northward each year -- according to one estimate, the South lost 100,000 slaves between 1810 and 1850.

An organized system to assist runaway slaves seems to have begun towards the end of the 18th century. In 1786 George Washington complained about how one of his runaway slaves was helped by a "society of Quakers, formed for such purposes." The system grew, and around 1831 it was dubbed "The Underground Railroad," after the then emerging steam railroads. The system even used terms used in railroading: the homes and businesses where fugitives would rest and eat were called "stations" and "depots" and were run by "stationmasters," those who contributed money or goods were "stockholders," and the "conductor" was responsible for moving fugitives from one station to the next.

For the slave, running away to the North was anything but easy. The first step was to escape from the slaveholder. For many slaves, this meant relying on his or her own resources. Sometimes a "conductor," posing as a slave, would enter a plantation and then guide the runaways northward. The fugitives would move at night. They would generally travel between 10 and 20 miles to the next station, where they would rest and eat, hiding in barns and other out-of-the-way places. While they waited, a message would be sent to the next station to alert its stationmaster.

The fugitives would also travel by train and boat -- conveyances that sometimes had to be paid for. Money was also needed to improve the appearance of the runaways -- a black man, woman, or child in tattered clothes would invariably attract suspicious eyes. This money was donated by individuals and also raised by various groups, including vigilance committees.

Vigilance committees sprang up in the larger towns and cities of the North, most prominently in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston. In addition to soliciting money, the organizations provided food, lodging and money, and helped the fugitives settle into a community by helping them find jobs and providing letters of recommendation.

The Underground Railroad had many notable participants, including John Fairfield in Ohio, the son of a slaveholding family, who made many daring rescues, Levi Coffin, a Quaker who assisted more than 3,000 slaves, and Harriet Tubman, who made 19 trips into the South and escorted over 300 slaves to freedom.
The Underground Railroad

[url]http://www.clintondalefriends.org/history.htm

 

[koshergrl]

Southerners are not the world, and represented a tiny fraction of the church. And in fact, many Southern christians did support abolition.

Christians have always been the first wave of people (and martyrs) who move to defend people from human rights violations. This is true when it comes to slavery, and the overturning of any oppressive government, since Christ.

No shit?
Having been raised in the deep south all of my life, grew up during integration in the late 50s and early 60s, played 15 seasons of football with many blacks that were my team mates and seeing them booed and spit on during games, I know first hand how oppressive southerners were. Some players received death threats. We played at a large school west of here and they had a black stuffed dummy with a noose on it's throat hanging from the goal post before the game. Of course our guy ran for over 100 yards that game and I dominated as usual.
Let me tell you: Christians that supported integration in the late 50s in the south were almost NONEXISTENT.
FACT. I was there and LIVED IT.

Good grief you like to blather, don't you?

I didn't say the majority of Christians in the south supported integration, you dolt. I said that the South is not the world, and they represent a TINY PORTION of the church.

Good for you for surviving. I'm sure you don't have any prejudice in you. I can see that about you. I'll bet you were all about taking a stand.

 

[Gadawg73]

Link please.

Immie

I have a link that states that Elvis is alive in Hahira, Ga., is working for the CIA in Afghanistan and cooks part time at the Waffle House.

You go find it yourself and see what is real. Are you incapable of doing your own research?

Actually, I have found several sites that tell me you are mistaken. Either that or you are joining leagues with TDM and I would prefer to think better of you.

I respect your posts, but I think you have been caught up in a mistake on this one and you cannot prove your point. I can find nothing at all that is not the opinion of some one else that indicates that Mr. Barton denies the Holocaust.

Immie

One of dozens. Barton is a fraud.
You are not very good at finding this mass amount of studies proving he is a fraud.
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton/html

 

[Immanuel]

I have a link that states that Elvis is alive in Hahira, Ga., is working for the CIA in Afghanistan and cooks part time at the Waffle House.

You go find it yourself and see what is real. Are you incapable of doing your own research?

Actually, I have found several sites that tell me you are mistaken. Either that or you are joining leagues with TDM and I would prefer to think better of you.

I respect your posts, but I think you have been caught up in a mistake on this one and you cannot prove your point. I can find nothing at all that is not the opinion of some one else that indicates that Mr. Barton denies the Holocaust.

Immie

One of dozens. Barton is a fraud.

http://www.publiceyehttp://www.publiceye.org/fas/fw/9606/barton.html

Thank you for trying, but this is what I am getting.

Error 404! Page Not Found!

It looks as if you typed over the first link with a second one. I'll see if I can come up with your proof.

Immie

 

[Gadawg73]

Actually, I have found several sites that tell me you are mistaken. Either that or you are joining leagues with TDM and I would prefer to think better of you.

I respect your posts, but I think you have been caught up in a mistake on this one and you cannot prove your point. I can find nothing at all that is not the opinion of some one else that indicates that Mr. Barton denies the Holocaust.

Immie

One of dozens. Barton is a fraud.

Thank you for trying, but this is what I am getting.

David Barton: master of myth and misinformation

 

[Immanuel]

Actually, I have found several sites that tell me you are mistaken. Either that or you are joining leagues with TDM and I would prefer to think better of you.

I respect your posts, but I think you have been caught up in a mistake on this one and you cannot prove your point. I can find nothing at all that is not the opinion of some one else that indicates that Mr. Barton denies the Holocaust.

Immie

One of dozens. Barton is a fraud.

http://www.publiceyehttp://www.publiceye.org/fas/fw/9606/barton.html

Thank you for trying, but this is what I am getting.

Error 404! Page Not Found!

It looks as if you typed over the first link with a second one. I'll see if I can come up with your proof.

Immie

Here is one link:

David Barton: master of myth and misinformation

but, I am sorry to say, I had already scanned that and written it off as Rob Boston's personal opinion and I didn't see anything that indicated that Barton is guilty of denying the holocaust except for the fact that he is being associated with Malcolm Ross and since I don't know anything about Ross, I am not jumping to conclusions based on Boston's accusations.

Why should I?

Further researching "Public Eye", I found this:

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

Mission Statement:

Political Research Associates is a progressive think tank devoted to supporting movements that are building a more just and inclusive democratic society. We expose movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights.

Goal

Political Research Associates seeks to advance progressive thinking and action by providing research-based information, analysis, and referrals.

That in and of itself is enough to throw up red flags as to their philosophy.

Immie

 

[Gadawg73]

Southerners are not the world, and represented a tiny fraction of the church. And in fact, many Southern christians did support abolition.

Christians have always been the first wave of people (and martyrs) who move to defend people from human rights violations. This is true when it comes to slavery, and the overturning of any oppressive government, since Christ.

No shit?
Having been raised in the deep south all of my life, grew up during integration in the late 50s and early 60s, played 15 seasons of football with many blacks that were my team mates and seeing them booed and spit on during games, I know first hand how oppressive southerners were. Some players received death threats. We played at a large school west of here and they had a black stuffed dummy with a noose on it's throat hanging from the goal post before the game. Of course our guy ran for over 100 yards that game and I dominated as usual.
Let me tell you: Christians that supported integration in the late 50s in the south were almost NONEXISTENT.
FACT. I was there and LIVED IT.

Good grief you like to blather, don't you?

I didn't say the majority of Christians in the south supported integration, you dolt. I said that the South is not the world, and they represent a TINY PORTION of the church.

Good for you for surviving. I'm sure you don't have any prejudice in you. I can see that about you. I'll bet you were all about taking a stand.

You remind me of a 5 year old.
You have an excuse for everything.
Would not last 5 minutes in my or the real world.

 

[Gadawg73]

One of dozens. Barton is a fraud.

http://www.publiceyehttp://www.publiceye.org/fas/fw/9606/barton.html

Thank you for trying, but this is what I am getting.

Error 404! Page Not Found!

It looks as if you typed over the first link with a second one. I'll see if I can come up with your proof.

Immie

Here is one link:

David Barton: master of myth and misinformation

but, I am sorry to say, I had already scanned that and written it off as Rob Boston's personal opinion and I didn't see anything that indicated that Barton is guilty of denying the holocaust except for the fact that he is being associated with Malcolm Ross and since I don't know anything about Ross, I am not jumping to conclusions based on Boston's accusations.

Why should I?

Further researching "Public Eye", I found this:

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

Mission Statement:

Political Research Associates is a progressive think tank devoted to supporting movements that are building a more just and inclusive democratic society. We expose movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights.

Goal

Political Research Associates seeks to advance progressive thinking and action by providing research-based information, analysis, and referrals.

That in and of itself is enough to throw up red flags as to their philosophy.

Immie

"personal opinion"
So what is it when Barton MAKES UP QUOTES that the Founders NEVER stated?
And the fact that Barton is A PREACHER not "throw up red flags"?
You are biased to the core.
This is getting funnier by the minute.
LOVE IT!!!

 

[Immanuel]

Thank you for trying, but this is what I am getting.

Error 404! Page Not Found!

It looks as if you typed over the first link with a second one. I'll see if I can come up with your proof.

Immie

Here is one link:

David Barton: master of myth and misinformation

but, I am sorry to say, I had already scanned that and written it off as Rob Boston's personal opinion and I didn't see anything that indicated that Barton is guilty of denying the holocaust except for the fact that he is being associated with Malcolm Ross and since I don't know anything about Ross, I am not jumping to conclusions based on Boston's accusations.

Why should I?

Further researching "Public Eye", I found this:

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

Mission Statement:

Political Research Associates is a progressive think tank devoted to supporting movements that are building a more just and inclusive democratic society. We expose movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights.

Goal

Political Research Associates seeks to advance progressive thinking and action by providing research-based information, analysis, and referrals.

That in and of itself is enough to throw up red flags as to their philosophy.

Immie

"personal opinion"
So what is it when Barton MAKES UP QUOTES that the Founders NEVER stated?
And the fact that Barton is A PREACHER not "throw up red flags"?
You are biased to the core.
This is getting funnier by the minute.
LOVE IT!!!

You still have not proven that Barton makes up quotes.

Immie

 

[Gadawg73]

FROM AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN:

READ IT AND WEEP:

Barton is a fraud.
He sits on the Board of The National Council for Bible Curriculum in PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
They promote his self admitted made up "quotes" being taught as historical fact in all of the public schools.
There are GREAT historians out there who embrace evangelical teachings but Barton is not one of them.
American Revolution Blog: The Danger of David Barton

 

[Gadawg73]

Immie, Jesus could come back and state Barton is a fraud and you would label it as opinion only.

 

[koshergrl]

No shit?
Having been raised in the deep south all of my life, grew up during integration in the late 50s and early 60s, played 15 seasons of football with many blacks that were my team mates and seeing them booed and spit on during games, I know first hand how oppressive southerners were. Some players received death threats. We played at a large school west of here and they had a black stuffed dummy with a noose on it's throat hanging from the goal post before the game. Of course our guy ran for over 100 yards that game and I dominated as usual.
Let me tell you: Christians that supported integration in the late 50s in the south were almost NONEXISTENT.
FACT. I was there and LIVED IT.

Good grief you like to blather, don't you?

I didn't say the majority of Christians in the south supported integration, you dolt. I said that the South is not the world, and they represent a TINY PORTION of the church.

Good for you for surviving. I'm sure you don't have any prejudice in you. I can see that about you. I'll bet you were all about taking a stand.

You remind me of a 5 year old.
You have an excuse for everything.
Would not last 5 minutes in my or the real world.

You remind me of a mentally ill street person.

What did I excuse? Oh, what you mean is that I was right, and that makes you ball up your fists in fury and bang your head against the wall. I'm sorry I showed you up. I see I'm not the only one who does this to you. I'm sorry for your rage, it truly is pathetic.

 

[Gadawg73]

Here is one link:

David Barton: master of myth and misinformation

but, I am sorry to say, I had already scanned that and written it off as Rob Boston's personal opinion and I didn't see anything that indicated that Barton is guilty of denying the holocaust except for the fact that he is being associated with Malcolm Ross and since I don't know anything about Ross, I am not jumping to conclusions based on Boston's accusations.

Why should I?

Further researching "Public Eye", I found this:

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates



That in and of itself is enough to throw up red flags as to their philosophy.

Immie

"personal opinion"
So what is it when Barton MAKES UP QUOTES that the Founders NEVER stated?
And the fact that Barton is A PREACHER not "throw up red flags"?
You are biased to the core.
This is getting funnier by the minute.
LOVE IT!!!

You still have not proven that Barton makes up quotes.

Immie

He admitted to it. What more do you need? He calls them "questionable".

 

[Gadawg73]

FROM AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN:

READ IT AND WEEP:

Barton is a fraud.
He sits on the Board of The National Council for Bible Curriculum in PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
They promote his self admitted made up "quotes" being taught as historical fact in all of the public schools.
There are GREAT historians out there who embrace evangelical teachings but Barton is not one of them.
American Revolution Blog: The Danger of David Barton

A simple "Now I know that you are right and I was wrong" would do.

Wham it zero on set, EP team on ready, KO team on squares, 4th string D to group.

 

[Gadawg73]

Good grief you like to blather, don't you?

I didn't say the majority of Christians in the south supported integration, you dolt. I said that the South is not the world, and they represent a TINY PORTION of the church.

Good for you for surviving. I'm sure you don't have any prejudice in you. I can see that about you. I'll bet you were all about taking a stand.

You remind me of a 5 year old.
You have an excuse for everything.
Would not last 5 minutes in my or the real world.

You remind me of a mentally ill street person.

What did I excuse? Oh, what you mean is that I was right, and that makes you ball up your fists in fury and bang your head against the wall. I'm sorry I showed you up. I see I'm not the only one who does this to you. I'm sorry for your rage, it truly is pathetic.

I do not hang around street people.
How is that working for you?

 

[Immanuel]

"personal opinion"
So what is it when Barton MAKES UP QUOTES that the Founders NEVER stated?
And the fact that Barton is A PREACHER not "throw up red flags"?
You are biased to the core.
This is getting funnier by the minute.
LOVE IT!!!

You still have not proven that Barton makes up quotes.

Immie

He admitted to it. What more do you need? He calls them "questionable".

Then please show me where he admitted it.

You keep making these claims without supporting it with evidence. Even the American Revolution Blog is nothing but someone's opinion. And the references given to back up this opinion?

Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage"

David Barton, in his taped presentation called America's Godly Heritage, peddles the proposition that America is a "Christian Nation," legally and historically. He also asserts that the principle of church-state separation, while not in the Constitution, has systematically been used to rule religion out of the public arena, particularly the public school system. This is not a new argument, but Barton is especially slick in his presentation. His presentation has just enough ring of truth to make him credible to many people. It is, however, laced with exaggerations, half- truths, and misstatements of fact. His citation to supporting research is scant at best and at times non-existent.

This booklet contains a short critique of some of the major points that Mr. Barton raises.

The above seems to be a decent critique of Mr. Barton's assertions and it does at least quote sources. I have not reviewed the sources. However, that does not make the critique accurate or even nullify Mr. Barton's point of view.

What is a Christian? is a question that will bring up many, many different answers from people.

Today's liberals and anti-theists want to assert that there were no or very few Christians among the Founding Fathers. They assert time and time again that these men were "deists" in order to defend their point. Where do these people get off defining who is a Christian or not?

Did you by chance watch the video in your link that purports "This video is a perfect example of Barton's ridiculous "historical" claims:"? If so, what did you find to be untruthful in what he said and upon what do you base your beliefs?

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

You still have not proven that Barton makes up quotes.

Immie

He admitted to it. What more do you need? He calls them "questionable".

Then please show me where he admitted it.

You keep making these claims without supporting it with evidence. Even the American Revolution Blog is nothing but someone's opinion. And the references given to back up this opinion?

Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage"

David Barton, in his taped presentation called America's Godly Heritage, peddles the proposition that America is a "Christian Nation," legally and historically. He also asserts that the principle of church-state separation, while not in the Constitution, has systematically been used to rule religion out of the public arena, particularly the public school system. This is not a new argument, but Barton is especially slick in his presentation. His presentation has just enough ring of truth to make him credible to many people. It is, however, laced with exaggerations, half- truths, and misstatements of fact. His citation to supporting research is scant at best and at times non-existent.

This booklet contains a short critique of some of the major points that Mr. Barton raises.

The above seems to be a decent critique of Mr. Barton's assertions and it does at least quote sources. I have not reviewed the sources. However, that does not make the critique accurate or even nullify Mr. Barton's point of view.

What is a Christian? is a question that will bring up many, many different answers from people.

Today's liberals and anti-theists want to assert that there were no or very few Christians among the Founding Fathers. They assert time and time again that these men were "deists" in order to defend their point. Where do these people get off defining who is a Christian or not?

Did you by chance watch the video in your link that purports "This video is a perfect example of Barton's ridiculous "historical" claims:"? If so, what did you find to be untruthful in what he said and upon what do you base your beliefs?

Immie

I have at times not taken the time to fully consider a list of quotations and, while most were adequately sourced and verifiable, have almost certainly included one of the more 'questionable' ones in a posted list. The presence of one that is not verifiable, however, does not nullify all the rest. One particular quotation in question re Patrick Henry wasn't 'made up' by Barton but was in fact stated in a Virginia publication in an article including reference to Patrick Henry and was inadvertently picked up and used as a Henry quote thereafter. And while I know the quotation does not appear in any of his writings or transcribed speeches, I almost certainly have included it in 'lists of quotations'. I do try to catch it and remove it but don't always take the time.

It is possible that Barton also picked up the quotation in the same manner, and while he and I would characterize the quotation as spurious re it being a Patrick Henry quotation, that does not translate to either of us having 'made it up'.

Unless they have reason to deem it of significant importance, honorable people will shrug off such inadvertent error and continue to focus on the issue at hand. The anti-religion and/or anti-Christian crowd, however, do not seem to want to focus on the real issue and they divert and promote their agenda with their own spurious accusations.