Any one wish to discuss Israel vs. Palestine here?

[M14 Shooter]

You'll have to be more specific, or provide a link to the event. Either way, my prediction stands.

Here you go...

You act as if Israel's actions were unprovoked
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1
See? Told you.

Really. Cite such an instance or one substatially simiilar.

I can site several.
Israeli Terrorist Incidents against Palestinians

Sigh....
Show that these were -terrorist- incidents.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Loinboy's list might prompt somebody to check out the incidents IF he had a source that wasn't 100% pro Palestinian and 100% amti Israeli. But since he doesn't, just consider the source and move on I think.

I always shake my head in amazement at the anti-Israel mantra that it was Israel who broke the 2008 cease fire. Those saying that never ever mention the rockets that Hamas continued to fire into Israeli neighborhoods, and that Israel agreed to the cease fire only if Hamas stopped such terrorist activities. And Israel was also on record that it would not allow such attacks to go unpunished.

So who is the villain there? Ya'll can make the call.

Yeah, you can. Israel for being on someone else's land to start with....

Once there is war you can forget the status-quo-ante and to the victor go the spoils.

Israel is, apparently, the fisrt country in the history of the world that does not have the right to keep the land it won in war.

 

[M14 Shooter]

So when the Palestinians finally push the Zionists off their land, we can ignore their whining?

That's not going to happen because Palestinian's don't have the capability to push zionists from their land. What is more realistically possible, is for zionists to finally respect and obey international law and end the occupation.

Israel won the West Bank from Jordan in a war that Israel did not start. Since then, Jordan has given up claim in that land - and thus, it rightly belongs to Israel. You cannot "occupy" your own territory.

 

[Billo_Really]

You act as if Israel's actions were unprovoked
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1
See? Told you.

They were unprovoked. Your own link admits this.

From your link:
An Israeli security force had entered Gaza to destroy a tunnel

"An Israeli force had entered Gaza...", like I said, the ceasefire ended with an Israeli commando raid.

Sigh....
Show that these were -terrorist- incidents.

According to US law...

Definition of terrorism:
“terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;

I believe the victims in most of the incidents I listed are classified as non-combatants and I'm pretty sure many of those acts of violence were a result of jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israel won the West Bank from Jordan in a war that Israel did not start. Since then, Jordan has given up claim in that land - and thus, it rightly belongs to Israel. You cannot "occupy" your own territory.

I'm sorry, but aquiring land by force, has been outlawed since the end of WWII.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israel is, apparently, the fisrt country in the history of the world that does not have the right to keep the land in won in war.

No, all country's since the end of WWII, cannot aquire land by the use of force.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Israel won the West Bank from Jordan in a war that Israel did not start. Since then, Jordan has given up claim in that land - and thus, it rightly belongs to Israel. You cannot "occupy" your own territory.

I'm sorry, but aquiring land by force, has been outlawed since the end of WWII.

False. Keeping land you won in wartime is precedented by at least 5000 years of international law.

This is -especially- the case when the state that lost the land gives up its claim on it, as Jordan did.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You act as if Israel's actions were unprovoked
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1
See? Told you.

They were unprovoked. Your own link admits this.

The link I posted notes that Israel acted in response to a Palestininan action.
That's the opposite of 'unprovoked'.

Sigh....
Show that these were -terrorist- incidents.

“terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents

Yep. Show that to tbe the case for each of the incidents you cited.
remember that we're looking for something akin to sending a suicide bomber specifically to blow up a bus full of schoolkids.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Edited.

Conquest
Main article: Right of conquest
Conquest, the acquisition of territory by way of force, was historically recognised as a lawful method for acquiring sovereignty, but has been illegal in international law at least since the entry into force of the United Nations Charter.

The UN is not the sole source or arbiter of International law, and that someting go against the tenets of the UN does not in any way necessarily make it 'illegal' under international law.

And, as I said: Jordan gave up cliam to the land and its rights to the West Bank and thus, under International law, it belongs to Israel.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Loinboy's list might prompt somebody to check out the incidents IF he had a source that wasn't 100% pro Palestinian and 100% amti Israeli. But since he doesn't, just consider the source and move on I think.

I always shake my head in amazement at the anti-Israel mantra that it was Israel who broke the 2008 cease fire. Those saying that never ever mention the rockets that Hamas continued to fire into Israeli neighborhoods, and that Israel agreed to the cease fire only if Hamas stopped such terrorist activities. And Israel was also on record that it would not allow such attacks to go unpunished.

So who is the villain there? Ya'll can make the call.

The rocket attacks went down to virtually zero. The Israeli government admitted life became normal for that time. It all ended with Israel's commando raid.

BTW, GlobalResearch is not a "pro-Palestinian" website. They are non-aligned and non-partisan. Why would a Canadian media outlet be pro-anything in the Middle East? I always love it when you people have no argument or facts to refute what was said, so you try to discredit the source. Didn't anyone tell you, ad hominem's are not valid rebuttals and if you object to what was stated in my link, then the burden of proof is on you to show evidence to the contrary in order to prove your objection is not frivolous.

Israel did break the ceasefire...they admitted to it too when they bombed a tunnel and killed 6 mostly militants I think. They never send a commando force to gaza it was their airforce, but Mark Regev admitted it you can look it up

 

[Foxfyre]

Loinboy's list might prompt somebody to check out the incidents IF he had a source that wasn't 100% pro Palestinian and 100% amti Israeli. But since he doesn't, just consider the source and move on I think.

I always shake my head in amazement at the anti-Israel mantra that it was Israel who broke the 2008 cease fire. Those saying that never ever mention the rockets that Hamas continued to fire into Israeli neighborhoods, and that Israel agreed to the cease fire only if Hamas stopped such terrorist activities. And Israel was also on record that it would not allow such attacks to go unpunished.

So who is the villain there? Ya'll can make the call.

The rocket attacks went down to virtually zero. The Israeli government admitted life became normal for that time. It all ended with Israel's commando raid.

BTW, GlobalResearch is not a "pro-Palestinian" website. They are non-aligned and non-partisan. Why would a Canadian media outlet be pro-anything in the Middle East? I always love it when you people have no argument or facts to refute what was said, so you try to discredit the source. Didn't anyone tell you, ad hominem's are not valid rebuttals and if you object to what was stated in my link, then the burden of proof is on you to show evidence to the contrary in order to prove your objection is not frivolous.

Israel did break the ceasefire...they admitted to it too when they bombed a tunnel and killed 6 mostly militants I think. They never send a commando force to gaza it was their airforce, but Mark Regev admitted it you can look it up

Well I've looked at every credible site I can find, and I can find nothing to suggest that Israel admitted breaking the cease fire or acted in any manner other than retaliation for repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

I can find any number of outrageous and unsupportable accusations and charges on the many dozens of anti-Israel sites out there.

So do you have a reliable quotation of any Israeli official admitting that Israel broke the cease fire?

 

[ConservaDerrps]

The rocket attacks went down to virtually zero. The Israeli government admitted life became normal for that time. It all ended with Israel's commando raid.

BTW, GlobalResearch is not a "pro-Palestinian" website. They are non-aligned and non-partisan. Why would a Canadian media outlet be pro-anything in the Middle East? I always love it when you people have no argument or facts to refute what was said, so you try to discredit the source. Didn't anyone tell you, ad hominem's are not valid rebuttals and if you object to what was stated in my link, then the burden of proof is on you to show evidence to the contrary in order to prove your objection is not frivolous.

Israel did break the ceasefire...they admitted to it too when they bombed a tunnel and killed 6 mostly militants I think. They never send a commando force to gaza it was their airforce, but Mark Regev admitted it you can look it up

Well I've looked at every credible site I can find, and I can find nothing to suggest that Israel admitted breaking the cease fire or acted in any manner other than retaliation for repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

I can find any number of outrageous and unsupportable accusations and charges on the many dozens of anti-Israel sites out there.

So do you have a reliable quotation of any Israeli official admitting that Israel broke the cease fire?

What credible sites did you visit, out of curiosity?

 

[Foxfyre]

Oh Snopes, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Washington Post, LA Times. Sources like that; most of which tilt pro-Palestinian.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

The rocket attacks went down to virtually zero. The Israeli government admitted life became normal for that time. It all ended with Israel's commando raid.

BTW, GlobalResearch is not a "pro-Palestinian" website. They are non-aligned and non-partisan. Why would a Canadian media outlet be pro-anything in the Middle East? I always love it when you people have no argument or facts to refute what was said, so you try to discredit the source. Didn't anyone tell you, ad hominem's are not valid rebuttals and if you object to what was stated in my link, then the burden of proof is on you to show evidence to the contrary in order to prove your objection is not frivolous.

Israel did break the ceasefire...they admitted to it too when they bombed a tunnel and killed 6 mostly militants I think. They never send a commando force to gaza it was their airforce, but Mark Regev admitted it you can look it up

Well I've looked at every credible site I can find, and I can find nothing to suggest that Israel admitted breaking the cease fire or acted in any manner other than retaliation for repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

I can find any number of outrageous and unsupportable accusations and charges on the many dozens of anti-Israel sites out there.

So do you have a reliable quotation of any Israeli official admitting that Israel broke the cease fire?

The official himself speaks on video, google mark regev admits Israel broke the ceasefire, he goes on to say for security reasons obviously either way they broke it, it's very easy to find

 

[Foxfyre]

Israel did break the ceasefire...they admitted to it too when they bombed a tunnel and killed 6 mostly militants I think. They never send a commando force to gaza it was their airforce, but Mark Regev admitted it you can look it up

Well I've looked at every credible site I can find, and I can find nothing to suggest that Israel admitted breaking the cease fire or acted in any manner other than retaliation for repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

I can find any number of outrageous and unsupportable accusations and charges on the many dozens of anti-Israel sites out there.

So do you have a reliable quotation of any Israeli official admitting that Israel broke the cease fire?

The official himself speaks on video, google mark regev admits Israel broke the ceasefire, he goes on to say for security reasons obviously either way they broke it, it's very easy to find

If it is easy to find, then surely you can post a reliable link to him saying it? Does he also admit that Hamas was firing rockets into southern Israel almost immediately after the cease fire?

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Well I've looked at every credible site I can find, and I can find nothing to suggest that Israel admitted breaking the cease fire or acted in any manner other than retaliation for repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

I can find any number of outrageous and unsupportable accusations and charges on the many dozens of anti-Israel sites out there.

So do you have a reliable quotation of any Israeli official admitting that Israel broke the cease fire?

The official himself speaks on video, google mark regev admits Israel broke the ceasefire, he goes on to say for security reasons obviously either way they broke it, it's very easy to find

If it is easy to find, then surely you can post a reliable link to him saying it? Does he also admit that Hamas was firing rockets into southern Israel almost immediately after the cease fire?

Well I need 15 posts to post a URL so let me catch up lol

 

[Foxfyre]

The official himself speaks on video, google mark regev admits Israel broke the ceasefire, he goes on to say for security reasons obviously either way they broke it, it's very easy to find

If it is easy to find, then surely you can post a reliable link to him saying it? Does he also admit that Hamas was firing rockets into southern Israel almost immediately after the cease fire?

Well I need 15 posts to post a URL so let me catch up lol

It isn'tall that important. I have seen the youtube video and have also noted that it is posted on almost every anti-Israel site with the exact same commentary accompanying it. I just haven't been able to find any more objective source supporting it or confirming it. And we all know that youtube can be edited to make a person appear to say something other than what was actually said. That was underscored in a major way with that altered youtube video of Obama's now infamous 'you didn't build that' speech. And shame on the anti-Obama people who resorted to that.

Again I am not a committed apologist for Israel. Just trying to keep it honest here though.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

If it is easy to find, then surely you can post a reliable link to him saying it? Does he also admit that Hamas was firing rockets into southern Israel almost immediately after the cease fire?

Well I need 15 posts to post a URL so let me catch up lol

It isn'tall that important. I have seen the youtube video and have also noted that it is posted on almost every anti-Israel site with the exact same commentary accompanying it. I just haven't been able to find any more objective source supporting it or confirming it. And we all know that youtube can be edited to make a person appear to say something other than what was actually said. That was underscored in a major way with that altered youtube video of Obama's now infamous 'you didn't build that' speech. And shame on the anti-Obama people who resorted to that.

Again I am not a committed apologist for Israel. Just trying to keep it honest here though.

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk, this is the attack the ended the ceasefire

 

[Foxfyre]

Well I need 15 posts to post a URL so let me catch up lol

It isn'tall that important. I have seen the youtube video and have also noted that it is posted on almost every anti-Israel site with the exact same commentary accompanying it. I just haven't been able to find any more objective source supporting it or confirming it. And we all know that youtube can be edited to make a person appear to say something other than what was actually said. That was underscored in a major way with that altered youtube video of Obama's now infamous 'you didn't build that' speech. And shame on the anti-Obama people who resorted to that.

Again I am not a committed apologist for Israel. Just trying to keep it honest here though.

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk, this is the attack the ended the ceasefire

And here is the New York Times version that leaves room for a difference opinion as to whether taking out a secret tunnel created by the Palestinians into Gaza constitutes breaking the cease fire. Which is the less defensible hostile act?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/world/africa/14iht-15gaza.17839437.html

The Jewish Virtual Library accounts report that the the rockets never fully stopped during the cease fire, but I have not been able to verify that from any other source either.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

It isn'tall that important. I have seen the youtube video and have also noted that it is posted on almost every anti-Israel site with the exact same commentary accompanying it. I just haven't been able to find any more objective source supporting it or confirming it. And we all know that youtube can be edited to make a person appear to say something other than what was actually said. That was underscored in a major way with that altered youtube video of Obama's now infamous 'you didn't build that' speech. And shame on the anti-Obama people who resorted to that.

Again I am not a committed apologist for Israel. Just trying to keep it honest here though.

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk, this is the attack the ended the ceasefire

And here is the New York Times version that leaves room for a difference opinion as to whether taking out a secret tunnel created by the Palestinians into Gaza constitutes breaking the cease fire. Which is the less defensible hostile act?

The Jewish Virtual Library accounts report that the the rockets never fully stopped during the cease fire, but I have not been able to verify that from any other source either.

That's still breaking the ceasefire, and this tunnel was in Deir al balah which raises another question, that would not make it an act of defense