Are people good or bad?

[G.T.]

Subjective ~ no factual response exists.

That's not true.

It is, but I didnt post it to have a discussion on it with the kid's table. I was hoping to come across someone rational who disagrees, to have a discussion with.

You were wanting to discuss that there is no factual answer to the question are people good or bad?

I just listed the factual basis to the answer. In fact, I listed two.

I no longer read your posts concerning anything intellectual because I find you to be stupid.

Dont worry about my opinion - just keep it moving and talk to other folks about it.

Way ahead of you, skippy.

Good.

 

[Votto]

So there are no universal heroes or villains?

Sounds about right...

I would say that Jesus is as close to universal good and Hitler is as close to universal evil as it gets.

Even Hitler did not do evil for evil's sake.

But Hitler did some good. He put an economy back in order, built up the infrastructure, and ended a dark economic time. Hitler had the largest welfare state on earth as its citizen enjoyed a higher standard of living than anywhere else on earth.

Men like Al Capone even owned a soup kitchen for the poor.

Once you do "good", it legitimizes you and gives you power that you simply point to when people say you are "bad".

I wasn't arguing that exactly. I was trying to say that when men do what some would perceive as evil, they don't do it for evil's sake. They do it for their own good. If you show me someone who worships evil and does evil for evil's sake, then I might have a different opinion.

Good and evil are not subjective. People are subjective.

Some people are sadistic. They get pleasure from watching others suffer, but you are correct, people turn to evil for a perceived need that supersedes what they know to be good.

 

[ding]

Sounds about right...

I would say that Jesus is as close to universal good and Hitler is as close to universal evil as it gets.

Even Hitler did not do evil for evil's sake.

But Hitler did some good. He put an economy back in order, built up the infrastructure, and ended a dark economic time. Hitler had the largest welfare state on earth as its citizen enjoyed a higher standard of living than anywhere else on earth.

Men like Al Capone even owned a soup kitchen for the poor.

Once you do "good", it legitimizes you and gives you power that you simply point to when people say you are "bad".

I wasn't arguing that exactly. I was trying to say that when men do what some would perceive as evil, they don't do it for evil's sake. They do it for their own good. If you show me someone who worships evil and does evil for evil's sake, then I might have a different opinion.

Good and evil are not subjective. People are subjective.

Some people are sadistic. They get pleasure from watching others suffer, but you are correct, people turn to evil for a perceived need that supersedes what they know to be good.

And yet they still have mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, children, etc that they care for and love.

They don't do those sadistic acts for evil's sake. They do them for their own sake; their own pleasure. If you show me someone whose existence is devoid of good. Then that might be a bad person. But that's not what we see. We see good men who do bad things. That does not make them bad.

 

[G.T.]

Good and evil are abstract terms that humans use to communicate certain opinions, of certain behaviours.

Good and evil themselves do not exist, but only our opinions of each.

Good and evil having an absolute standard would be impossible -> if it were an omniscient God, it's subjective based on said God's command....thus not absolute.

If said God was incapable of changing its command, then said God is not inherently omniscient - but instead has limitations.

If the standard can change, it is not absolute.
If the standard cannot change - then the authority creating the standard is not omniscient, but is limited. If the Authority is limited, the standard is not absolute.

There is no scenario that good and evil are anything but human abstractions made to describe our opinions of behaviours.

 

[G.T.]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

 

[Michelle420]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

Also, God is defined in different ways to different people, different cultures, different religions.

 

[ding]

Good and evil are not abstract terms. Evil is the absence of good. Perception of good and evil is subjective which leads some humans to the erroneous conclusion that there is no such thing as good or evil.

If good and evil are abstract terms then hot and cold are abstract terms too. Of course we know that hot and cold are not abstract terms. What we do know is that cold does not exist in and of itself. Cold is the absence of heat just as evil is the absence of good. Nothing abstract about any of that at all.

 

[G.T.]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

Also, God is defined in different ways to different people, different cultures, different religions.

Sometimes I think we are inside of a super computer - but only when Im doing some creative/for fun wondering.

What might happen is that we discover that existence had no beginning, but was eternal - and Universes are cyclic.

Eternal as a word wouldnt even make sense outside of space-time, so that could be a conundrum in and of itself.

At the end of the day, I respect everyones beliefs, but I dont respect anyone who declares its knowledge, in terms of creation, as opposed to belief. Two very distinct terms....knowledge and belief.

 

[ding]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

God cannot oppose Himself. He cannot oppose His Nature and make a moral change.

God cannot be proven to exist anymore than He can be proven not to exist.

But evidence of His existence can be examined for clues as to his invisible attributes and the purpose of existence.

 

[G.T.]

Hot and cold are descriptive terms based on human definitions. Subjective, and abstract.

Humans would describe 120 degrees as a hot day.

The sun would giggle.

Myrtle Beach would call 35 degrees a bitter cold day.

Canadians would giggle.

 

[G.T.]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

God cannot oppose Himself. He cannot oppose His Nature and make a moral change.

God cannot be proven to exist anymore than He can be proven not to exist.

But evidence of His existence can be examined for clues as to his invisible attributes and the purpose of existence.

If he cannot oppose himself, then the God youre describing is not all powerful.

The part about proving a god to exist....youd fail there so lets just not talk about it. Its not been done in human history, ding on USMB isnt going to do it.

 

[ding]

Good and evil or right and wrong are absolutes. Perception of good and evil and right and wrong are relative. All one has to do to know this is to experience both first hand.

 

[G.T.]

Good and evil or right and wrong are absolutes. Perception of good and evil and right and wrong are relative. All one has to do to know this is to experience both first hand.

Experience is subjective.

Absolutes are the exact opposite of being "based on experience."

Thats why I asked for the adult table.

You just "declare" things. Thats not how logic works.

"god cannot change his opinion, or else hes not all powerful" is logic.

"good and evil are absolutes...cuz...experience"... is not logic.

 

[ding]

Hot and cold are descriptive terms based on human definitions. Subjective, and abstract.

Humans would describe 120 degrees as a hot day.

The sun would giggle.

Myrtle Beach would call 35 degrees a bitter cold day.

Canadians would giggle.

"There's cold in the same sense that there's dark. You can't open the door to a room and have the dark spill out. Dark is the absence of light," says Dr. David Goldberg, a Drexel University physicist. "If you leave your door open when the air-conditioning is on, you're not letting the cold out. You're letting the heat in."

The idea that there is no cold is a fundamental building block in physics and thermodynamics. Kids study the concept in school, but it often fades into the haze of all the stuff they have to master to move on and up, when they're not praying for snow days so they can ditch class and homework entirely.

Tulasi Nandan Parashar, a post-doctoral researcher in physics and astronomy at the University of Delaware, explains the concept of heat by starting at the atomic level.

"Everything is made up of atoms – yourself, your desk, your belt, your cellphone," he says. "And atoms vibrate very fast. If they are free to move, they move around very fast. If they are in a solid state, they shake around in that position. There's random shaking of liquids, gasses and movement. It's a form of energy.

"The more shaking we have, the more energy is emitted and we call it hotter, or it has temperature."

Or heat.

There is a limit to that shaking, though: At absolute zero, at which point scientists believe all the motion of atoms ceases.

There is no cold. Only absence of heat

 

[ding]

Hot and cold are descriptive terms based on human definitions. Subjective, and abstract.

Humans would describe 120 degrees as a hot day.

The sun would giggle.

Myrtle Beach would call 35 degrees a bitter cold day.

Canadians would giggle.

At absolute zero, at which point scientists believe all the motion of atoms ceases.

Nothing abstract about that.

 

[ding]

Good and evil or right and wrong are absolutes. Perception of good and evil and right and wrong are relative. All one has to do to know this is to experience both first hand.

Experience is subjective.

Absolutes are the exact opposite of being "based on experience."

Thats why I asked for the adult table.

You just "declare" things. Thats not how logic works.

"god cannot change his opinion, or else hes not all powerful" is logic.

"good and evil are absolutes...cuz...experience"... is not logic.

Outcomes are not subjective. The greatest organizing principle is virtue.

 

[G.T.]

cold and hot are subjective human descriptions of temperature.

to prove theyre absolute, i.e. exist in the literal sense....you cant do it by citing humans.

oye vey

 

[ding]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

God cannot oppose Himself. He cannot oppose His Nature and make a moral change.

God cannot be proven to exist anymore than He can be proven not to exist.

But evidence of His existence can be examined for clues as to his invisible attributes and the purpose of existence.

If he cannot oppose himself, then the God youre describing is not all powerful.

The part about proving a god to exist....youd fail there so lets just not talk about it. Its not been done in human history, ding on USMB isnt going to do it.

He is so powerful He can't oppose Himself. What's not to understand?

 

[G.T.]

Good and evil or right and wrong are absolutes. Perception of good and evil and right and wrong are relative. All one has to do to know this is to experience both first hand.

Experience is subjective.

Absolutes are the exact opposite of being "based on experience."

Thats why I asked for the adult table.

You just "declare" things. Thats not how logic works.

"god cannot change his opinion, or else hes not all powerful" is logic.

"good and evil are absolutes...cuz...experience"... is not logic.

Outcomes are not subjective. The greatest organizing principle is virtue.

Outcomes are not subjective?

Thats a stupid remark. Was Trump winning the Presidency good...or bad?

Ohh...

Nevermind. Youre ding.

 

[G.T.]

Can an Omniscient God make a Rock that it cannot move...

Can an Omniscient God make a moral that it cannot change.

Also, is a God even proven to exist in the first place.


These would all need to be answered before it can be said that good and evil exist.(outside of the abstract).otherwise you are just nature bloviating.

God cannot oppose Himself. He cannot oppose His Nature and make a moral change.

God cannot be proven to exist anymore than He can be proven not to exist.

But evidence of His existence can be examined for clues as to his invisible attributes and the purpose of existence.

If he cannot oppose himself, then the God youre describing is not all powerful.

The part about proving a god to exist....youd fail there so lets just not talk about it. Its not been done in human history, ding on USMB isnt going to do it.

He is so powerful He can't oppose Himself. What's not to understand?

"so powerful"


or..."all powerful"



words matter.

if he cant oppose himself, thats a contradiction to being "all" powerful.