Arizona execution goes terribly wrong

[Meathead]

Honestly, guy, 5.5K posts of just trolling just shows you don't have all that much to say.

There are Rightwingers here who talk about interesting stuff, even though I disagree with them quite a bit.

You rarely add anything to a conversation other than to troll.

Painfully stupid is the best description I've heard of you yet. Wish I had thought of that.

 

[JoeB131]

Honestly, guy, 5.5K posts of just trolling just shows you don't have all that much to say.

There are Rightwingers here who talk about interesting stuff, even though I disagree with them quite a bit.

You rarely add anything to a conversation other than to troll.

Painfully stupid is the best description I've heard of you yet. Wish I had thought of that.

So you're not really adding anything to the conversation, you are just trolling because i'm one of the few who pays attention to you?

Got it.

 

[Meathead]

Honestly, guy, 5.5K posts of just trolling just shows you don't have all that much to say.

There are Rightwingers here who talk about interesting stuff, even though I disagree with them quite a bit.

You rarely add anything to a conversation other than to troll.

Painfully stupid is the best description I've heard of you yet. Wish I had thought of that.

So you're not really adding anything to the conversation, you are just trolling because i'm one of the few who pays attention to you?

Got it.

You're "special" and more than a bit hypocritical in your heart bleeding for the worst of the human species and your complete disregard of the lives of the most innocent and helpless.

You have strong beliefs yet a severe deficit in articulating them. Thats where the "pain" in painfully stupid kicks in.

 

[JFK_USA]

Sadly, the worst sum of the earth are heroes to be cherished while their victims don't even deserve to be remembered to liberal idiots.

No it's about following the 8th amendment rule against cruel and unusual punishment. Everyone has rights, including murderers.

Yeah, and you are more worried about the murderers rights, than those he killed, and the victims he left behind.

This is why we on the right, don't give a crap what you people think. If you care more about murderers than the victims, that makes you an accomplice in my book. You should die with them. Save us all having you scum supporting criminals in our society.

So you don't care about the 8th amendment? Oh and I should be killed for my beliefs. So much for living in a free thinking society.

 

[Andylusion]

No it's about following the 8th amendment rule against cruel and unusual punishment. Everyone has rights, including murderers.

Yeah, and you are more worried about the murderers rights, than those he killed, and the victims he left behind.

This is why we on the right, don't give a crap what you people think. If you care more about murderers than the victims, that makes you an accomplice in my book. You should die with them. Save us all having you scum supporting criminals in our society.

So you don't care about the 8th amendment? Oh and I should be killed for my beliefs. So much for living in a free thinking society.

The 8th Amendment does not apply. There is nothing cruel or unusual about punishing people who take innocent life, by taking guilty life.

If 'free-thinking' means 'supporting those who murder people', then no, I'm against that kind of 'free-thinking'.

You are supporting people who commit murder, and try to claim that's 'free-thinking'?

No that's just being scum sucking criminal trash. Civil societies are only civil, because they take out the trash. *YOU* are the trash, if you support murderers. The more people like you there are, the worse and less civil our society gets.

 

[JoeB131]

Painfully stupid is the best description I've heard of you yet. Wish I had thought of that.

So you're not really adding anything to the conversation, you are just trolling because i'm one of the few who pays attention to you?

Got it.

You're "special" and more than a bit hypocritical in your heart bleeding for the worst of the human species and your complete disregard of the lives of the most innocent and helpless.

You have strong beliefs yet a severe deficit in articulating them. Thats where the "pain" in painfully stupid kicks in.

Okay, now, you see, you are trying your best for an argument and can't quite get there.

I don't think fetuses are people. Sorry, they just aren't. And as a practical matter, it's not really my call because I don't own a uterus.

On the other hand, I'd have a real problem if the government executed someone for a crime they didn't commit, something they've almost done 148 times so far.

That you are too dumb to understand this, or too racist to care, isn't really my problem.

 

[JoeB131]

[

The 8th Amendment does not apply. There is nothing cruel or unusual about punishing people who take innocent life, by taking guilty life.

If 'free-thinking' means 'supporting those who murder people', then no, I'm against that kind of 'free-thinking'.

You are supporting people who commit murder, and try to claim that's 'free-thinking'?

No that's just being scum sucking criminal trash. Civil societies are only civil, because they take out the trash. *YOU* are the trash, if you support murderers. The more people like you there are, the worse and less civil our society gets.

Just remember, the only thing that keeps "Christians" like Androw from going on murderous rampages is their fear of their imaginary Sky Fairy.

 

[Meathead]

So you're not really adding anything to the conversation, you are just trolling because i'm one of the few who pays attention to you?

Got it.

You're "special" and more than a bit hypocritical in your heart bleeding for the worst of the human species and your complete disregard of the lives of the most innocent and helpless.

You have strong beliefs yet a severe deficit in articulating them. Thats where the "pain" in painfully stupid kicks in.

Okay, now, you see, you are trying your best for an argument and can't quite get there.

I don't think fetuses are people. Sorry, they just aren't. And as a practical matter, it's not really my call because I don't own a uterus.

On the other hand, I'd have a real problem if the government executed someone for a crime they didn't commit, something they've almost done 148 times so far.

That you are too dumb to understand this, or too racist to care, isn't really my problem.

"something they've almost done 148 times so far".

What are you blabbering about.?! This is inarticulation!

 

[JFK_USA]

Yeah, and you are more worried about the murderers rights, than those he killed, and the victims he left behind.

This is why we on the right, don't give a crap what you people think. If you care more about murderers than the victims, that makes you an accomplice in my book. You should die with them. Save us all having you scum supporting criminals in our society.

So you don't care about the 8th amendment? Oh and I should be killed for my beliefs. So much for living in a free thinking society.

The 8th Amendment does not apply. There is nothing cruel or unusual about punishing people who take innocent life, by taking guilty life.

If 'free-thinking' means 'supporting those who murder people', then no, I'm against that kind of 'free-thinking'.

You are supporting people who commit murder, and try to claim that's 'free-thinking'?

No that's just being scum sucking criminal trash. Civil societies are only civil, because they take out the trash. *YOU* are the trash, if you support murderers. The more people like you there are, the worse and less civil our society gets.

The 8th amendment has been applied to say that certain methods of the death penalty are cruel and unusual. Standing up for individuals rights doesn't mean you support their actions. That's a logical fallacy. Does every attorney for a person found guilty of murder support murderers? No. They just defend their rights established in the US Constitution. Defending rights is different from support. You should learn the difference.

 

[Andylusion]

[

The 8th Amendment does not apply. There is nothing cruel or unusual about punishing people who take innocent life, by taking guilty life.

If 'free-thinking' means 'supporting those who murder people', then no, I'm against that kind of 'free-thinking'.

You are supporting people who commit murder, and try to claim that's 'free-thinking'?

No that's just being scum sucking criminal trash. Civil societies are only civil, because they take out the trash. *YOU* are the trash, if you support murderers. The more people like you there are, the worse and less civil our society gets.

Just remember, the only thing that keeps "Christians" like Androw from going on murderous rampages is their fear of their imaginary Sky Fairy.

As opposed to people who believe in nothing, and morality is relative.... and there is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from going on murderous rampages.

“if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” - Jeffrey Dahmer

" took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism." - Jim Jones.

Poster children for the non-religious.

 

[JoeB131]

[

The 8th Amendment does not apply. There is nothing cruel or unusual about punishing people who take innocent life, by taking guilty life.

If 'free-thinking' means 'supporting those who murder people', then no, I'm against that kind of 'free-thinking'.

You are supporting people who commit murder, and try to claim that's 'free-thinking'?

No that's just being scum sucking criminal trash. Civil societies are only civil, because they take out the trash. *YOU* are the trash, if you support murderers. The more people like you there are, the worse and less civil our society gets.

Just remember, the only thing that keeps "Christians" like Androw from going on murderous rampages is their fear of their imaginary Sky Fairy.

As opposed to people who believe in nothing, and morality is relative.... and there is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from going on murderous rampages.

“if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” - Jeffrey Dahmer

" took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism." - Jim Jones.

Poster children for the non-religious.

So your authority is a cannibal serial killer and a cult leader? Really?

Not that I want to take the time and energy to do so, But I'll bet those are false quotes.

 

[JoeB131]

You're "special" and more than a bit hypocritical in your heart bleeding for the worst of the human species and your complete disregard of the lives of the most innocent and helpless.

You have strong beliefs yet a severe deficit in articulating them. Thats where the "pain" in painfully stupid kicks in.

Okay, now, you see, you are trying your best for an argument and can't quite get there.

I don't think fetuses are people. Sorry, they just aren't. And as a practical matter, it's not really my call because I don't own a uterus.

On the other hand, I'd have a real problem if the government executed someone for a crime they didn't commit, something they've almost done 148 times so far.

That you are too dumb to understand this, or too racist to care, isn't really my problem.

"something they've almost done 148 times so far".

What are you blabbering about.?! This is inarticulation!

148 people have been charged, convicted, sentenced to death, and would have been executed if someone hadn't fought the system to prove their innocence.

I'm sorry plain English and simple logic escapes you.

 

[Kondor3]

Fine.

Then keep the Death Penalty but devise better sentencing standards.

Hell, have juries who declare a Guilty verdict in capital cases, to devise two (2) sentences:

1. the death penalty

2. some alternative sentence

...then submit the sentences to some kind of death penalty judicial review panel.

All open and above board, with their own procedures and legal representations.

The purpose being to review the nature of the evidence used to convict.

If it's "hard evidence" - purely forensic, leaving no doubt of guilt, then off to Death Row goes the convict.

If it's "softer evidence" - testimony, etc., then the death penalty is rejected, and the alternative sentence is imposed.

With it's own time-limit and 'appeals' process, as well, within the domain of a hierarchy of Death Penalty Review specialist-jurists and court mechanisms.

Such evaluations to begin immediately and automatically after such a Guilty verdict and Preliminary Sentencing.

And, once reviewed, and if the Death Penalty is upheld, set a much shorter and inviolable time-limit for further appeals of the older kind (prior to the advent of Death Penalty Review mechanisms) - say, no more than two to five years.

Once that 'other appeals' time-limit is exhausted, it's Lights Out.

That should go a long way towards resolving concerns over the nature and fallibility of evidence, and related consistency in connection with sentencing, and would have the added benefit of eliminating the 20 or 30 year-long waits that some of these condemned folks enjoy, even though they're guilty as Hell. Cheaper, too.

 

[Andylusion]

Just remember, the only thing that keeps "Christians" like Androw from going on murderous rampages is their fear of their imaginary Sky Fairy.

As opposed to people who believe in nothing, and morality is relative.... and there is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from going on murderous rampages.

“if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” - Jeffrey Dahmer

" took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism." - Jim Jones.

Poster children for the non-religious.

So your authority is a cannibal serial killer and a cult leader? Really?

Not that I want to take the time and energy to do so, But I'll bet those are false quotes.

Coming from someone that denies there is any authority greater than himself.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Coming from someone that denies there is any authority greater than himself.

No, when I cite authority, it's authority that knows what it is talking about.

 

[JoeB131]

Fine.

Then keep the Death Penalty but devise better sentencing standards.

Hell, have juries who declare a Guilty verdict in capital cases, to devise two (2) sentences:

1. the death penalty

2. some alternative sentence

...then submit the sentences to some kind of death penalty judicial review panel.

All open and above board, with their own procedures and legal representations.

The purpose being to review the nature of the evidence used to convict.

If it's "hard evidence" - purely forensic, leaving no doubt of guilt, then off to Death Row goes the convict.

If it's "softer evidence" - testimony, etc., then the death penalty is rejected, and the alternative sentence is imposed.

With it's own time-limit and 'appeals' process, as well, within the domain of a hierarchy of Death Penalty Review specialist-jurists and court mechanisms.

Such evaluations to begin immediately and automatically after such a Guilty verdict and Preliminary Sentencing.

And, once reviewed, and if the Death Penalty is upheld, set a much shorter and inviolable time-limit for further appeals of the older kind (prior to the advent of Death Penalty Review mechanisms) - say, no more than two to five years.

Once that 'other appeals' time-limit is exhausted, it's Lights Out.

That should go a long way towards resolving concerns over the nature and fallibility of evidence, and related consistency in connection with sentencing, and would have the added benefit of eliminating the 20 or 30 year-long waits that some of these condemned folks enjoy, even though they're guilty as Hell. Cheaper, too.

That's all sounds nice and stuff.

But here's the problem. When they convicted Ronaldo Cruz for the murder of Jeanine Nicaraco, they had Forensics and a confession. Cops here in DuPage swore up and down that Rolando committed the murder, and he confessed to it.

Except he hadn't. The cops lied. They decided he "looked good for it" and fabricated evidence against him and two other guys who happened to be his friends.

Then a serial creep named Brian Dugan- already in prison for two other murders with the same MO - said he did this one, too.

The prosecutors and cops didn't tell the defense or the court. Cruz got the death penalty.

Then some hard-working law students - not the system- worked very hard to get him an appeal. The prosecutors changed their story, that Dugan confessed, but it was a jailhouse scheme to get Cruz off the hook. They got a SECOND conviction and death penalty.

The appeals courts threw that one out, but fortunately, by that time, someone actually bothered to test the evidence for DNA and it was Dugan all along. Geezus fucking Christ, Scooby-Doo could have figured this one out. Not to worry, the prosecutors had a new theory. Dugan and Cruz, who apparently never met, conspired to kill this little girl. They had a confession, dammit!!!!

Except by that time, they finally got ahold of the original interview notes. Oh, wait, they didn't have a confession. They spent 10 years and three trials trying to convict this man.

So, no, given the system is this flawed, I'm simply not in favor of executing anyone.

I should also point out the poor fool who usually finds himself on death row is the one who thinks he can beat the rap, sometimes becuase he didn't do it, sometimes because the evidence sucks, and sometimes because his lawyer sucks.

The guys who are as guilty as cats in a canary cage usually have the good sense to cop a plea.

 

[Andylusion]

Fine.

Then keep the Death Penalty but devise better sentencing standards.

Hell, have juries who declare a Guilty verdict in capital cases, to devise two (2) sentences:

1. the death penalty

2. some alternative sentence

...then submit the sentences to some kind of death penalty judicial review panel.

All open and above board, with their own procedures and legal representations.

The purpose being to review the nature of the evidence used to convict.

If it's "hard evidence" - purely forensic, leaving no doubt of guilt, then off to Death Row goes the convict.

If it's "softer evidence" - testimony, etc., then the death penalty is rejected, and the alternative sentence is imposed.

With it's own time-limit and 'appeals' process, as well, within the domain of a hierarchy of Death Penalty Review specialist-jurists and court mechanisms.

Such evaluations to begin immediately and automatically after such a Guilty verdict and Preliminary Sentencing.

And, once reviewed, and if the Death Penalty is upheld, set a much shorter and inviolable time-limit for further appeals of the older kind (prior to the advent of Death Penalty Review mechanisms) - say, no more than two to five years.

Once that 'other appeals' time-limit is exhausted, it's Lights Out.

That should go a long way towards resolving concerns over the nature and fallibility of evidence, and related consistency in connection with sentencing, and would have the added benefit of eliminating the 20 or 30 year-long waits that some of these condemned folks enjoy, even though they're guilty as Hell. Cheaper, too.

That's all sounds nice and stuff.

But here's the problem. When they convicted Ronaldo Cruz for the murder of Jeanine Nicaraco, they had Forensics and a confession. Cops here in DuPage swore up and down that Rolando committed the murder, and he confessed to it.

Except he hadn't. The cops lied. They decided he "looked good for it" and fabricated evidence against him and two other guys who happened to be his friends.

Then a serial creep named Brian Dugan- already in prison for two other murders with the same MO - said he did this one, too.

The prosecutors and cops didn't tell the defense or the court. Cruz got the death penalty.

Then some hard-working law students - not the system- worked very hard to get him an appeal. The prosecutors changed their story, that Dugan confessed, but it was a jailhouse scheme to get Cruz off the hook. They got a SECOND conviction and death penalty.

The appeals courts threw that one out, but fortunately, by that time, someone actually bothered to test the evidence for DNA and it was Dugan all along. Geezus fucking Christ, Scooby-Doo could have figured this one out. Not to worry, the prosecutors had a new theory. Dugan and Cruz, who apparently never met, conspired to kill this little girl. They had a confession, dammit!!!!

Except by that time, they finally got ahold of the original interview notes. Oh, wait, they didn't have a confession. They spent 10 years and three trials trying to convict this man.

So, no, given the system is this flawed, I'm simply not in favor of executing anyone.

I should also point out the poor fool who usually finds himself on death row is the one who thinks he can beat the rap, sometimes becuase he didn't do it, sometimes because the evidence sucks, and sometimes because his lawyer sucks.

The guys who are as guilty as cats in a canary cage usually have the good sense to cop a plea.

You confess to murder, you get what you deserve.

If he was coerced, or the police fabricated evidence as you say, then the police need to be punished to the same level as the criminal act they were framing on him.

See you are looking at a system where the police and prosecutors are not held accountable for their errors, and then complaining the punishment is wrong?

Every single time you say "we should not do this because police lied", I'm going to say, no we should do it, but we should hold police accountable for lying.

What you just spewed on here, is not a reason to not have capital punishment. It's a reason to enforce justice on prosecutors and police.

 

[JoeB131]

You confess to murder, you get what you deserve.

No, he didn't, and no, you don't. People confess to murders they didn't commit all the time, and if the cops know what they are doing, they usually figure that out pretty quickly. Sadly, the Barney Fifes out here in DuPage didn't.

If he was coerced, or the police fabricated evidence as you say, then the police need to be punished to the same level as the criminal act they were framing on him.

See you are looking at a system where the police and prosecutors are not held accountable for their errors, and then complaining the punishment is wrong?

Well, funny you should mention that. Seven prosecutors and cops WERE put on trial for framing Cruz. A mostly white Dupage County Jury not only acquitted them in a few hours, but then went out and had drinks with them afterwards.

Every single time you say "we should not do this because police lied", I'm going to say, no we should do it, but we should hold police accountable for lying.

What you just spewed on here, is not a reason to not have capital punishment. It's a reason to enforce justice on prosecutors and police.

No, guy, until you eliminate every bit of racism, incompetence, ego and malice from the system, you cannot assure me that every person you execute really has it coming.

On top of that, it's still barbaric and stupid, which is why every civilized country has abandoned it.

 

[Andylusion]

You confess to murder, you get what you deserve.

No, he didn't, and no, you don't. People confess to murders they didn't commit all the time, and if the cops know what they are doing, they usually figure that out pretty quickly. Sadly, the Barney Fifes out here in DuPage didn't.

He either did, or he didn't. If he didn't, then he didn't. If he did, then I have little sympathy. I promise you, you put me in that situation, I'm not confessing to something I didn't do.

Unless he was being beaten, in which case the prosecutors need to be prosecuted.

If he was coerced, or the police fabricated evidence as you say, then the police need to be punished to the same level as the criminal act they were framing on him.

See you are looking at a system where the police and prosecutors are not held accountable for their errors, and then complaining the punishment is wrong?

Well, funny you should mention that. Seven prosecutors and cops WERE put on trial for framing Cruz. A mostly white Dupage County Jury not only acquitted them in a few hours, but then went out and had drinks with them afterwards.

Then that needs fixed. That's the problem. The punishment is not the problem, that right there is the problem.

Again, we're never going to agree on this. Never. The problem is not capital punishment. The problem is bad law enforcement. Under your system, we should just not have law enforcement at all, because people can be framed for life, and end up imprisoned forever. Can't have that, so let's just not have a justice system at all.

Every single time you say "we should not do this because police lied", I'm going to say, no we should do it, but we should hold police accountable for lying.

What you just spewed on here, is not a reason to not have capital punishment. It's a reason to enforce justice on prosecutors and police.

No, guy, until you eliminate every bit of racism, incompetence, ego and malice from the system, you cannot assure me that every person you execute really has it coming.

On top of that, it's still barbaric and stupid, which is why every civilized country has abandoned it.

Every civilized country? Japan? Singapore? Russia? South Korea? Taiwan?

In fact, I have personally talked to Asians that come here, and can't believe we let known murderers live. They think we're the barbarians.

Stop being a liar. You disagree, that's fine. But if you are going to lie constantly to make your point, the that just makes you the barbaric stupid person. Stop being barbaric and stupid. Don't lie. Agree to disagree if you want, but don't be exactly what you claim others are.

 

[JoeB131]

Then that needs fixed. That's the problem. The punishment is not the problem, that right there is the problem.

Again, we're never going to agree on this. Never. The problem is not capital punishment. The problem is bad law enforcement. Under your system, we should just not have law enforcement at all, because people can be framed for life, and end up imprisoned forever. Can't have that, so let's just not have a justice system at all.

No, it means you don't have one that has punishments that can't be undone. Lock someone up for the rest of his life, but he's got the rest of his life to prove he didnt do it. Once you've executed him, you can't undo it.

Every civilized country? Japan? Singapore? Russia? South Korea? Taiwan?

In fact, I have personally talked to Asians that come here, and can't believe we let known murderers live. They think we're the barbarians.

Stop being a liar. You disagree, that's fine. But if you are going to lie constantly to make your point, the that just makes you the barbaric stupid person. Stop being barbaric and stupid. Don't lie. Agree to disagree if you want, but don't be exactly what you claim others are.

Alright, guy, if you want to go there. We can eliminated Russia from that list. Russia is hardly civilized. It's a dictatorship.

As for other Asian countries, I'm sure you don't want to have their justice system. To start with, they aren't allowed to own guns as private citizens.

Japan has executed all of one person this year.

They had no executions in 2011. In 2013 they did execute 8 people.

South Korea hasn't executed anyone since 1997.

While Singapore had two executions this year, they hadn't executed anyone since 2009 before that. Singapore also publicly flogs people for minor offenses.

Point is, civilized western countries have abolished the death penalty, and civilized eastern countries have largely abolished it.

But down in Red State America, you bible thumping slackjaws just can't wait to murder people.