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I think religion is bad. I can't help it. When I think religion is harmless I'll stop.Yes. I was one of those people, but let me clarify that. Atheism in and of itself is not a religion. It only manifests itself as a religion when it becomes dogmatic like a religion and its adherents act like it is a religion. That does not apply to the vast majority of atheists most of whom have no interest in God or religion at all, but it does apply to militant atheists who attack other religions like a rival religion attacks a fellow rival religion. Protestants and Catholics come to mind as well as Sunnis and Shiites. I have posted the dogmatic faith of these militant atheists. It is listed at the bottom of every one of my posts. It is not something new. It is not something I made up. It has been observed and discussed for over 100 years.I didn't claim Atheism was a religion. That claim was made by Christians in this forum. Please provide some sort of evidence for blind dogmatic faith by atheists. I will be waiting.Wrong again. Atheism isn't like religion. But the human behaviors of blind dogmatic faith are remarkably the same for both atheists and religious fundamentalists.Many of your com-padres would disagree. There was a thread here about Atheism being a belief and a religion. To state an atheist only knows what they don't believe is a ridiculous statement. It first implies that an atheists knows nothing about anything else. I'm sure you don't believe the moon is made out of cheese. If there was a name for people not believing the moon was made out of cheese (let's call them noncasiests) then a statement like A Noncasiest only knows what they don't believe would be wrong and ridiculous. I know you are only trying to poke subtle jabs and insults because you actually have no argument. You also said to Czernobog that you are not obliged to call him anything right after you called him a pop culture atheist. Another little jab. How about staying away from ridiculous labels and argue the points.Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with the term "unified belief system". Obviously there are many different unified belief systems, religious and otherwise. Atheism simply doesn't happen to be one of them. Atheism, if it can even be considered a philosophical model of any kind, comprises no actual beliefs. They only know what they don't believe. Is that clear enough for you? Or can I expect yet another round of knee jerks?You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.
No because no one threatened him with hell or promised eternal life if he believes those things.You didn't answer my question.Do you believe in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick? Yes, or no.Why should I? I believe in angels and demons and that demons were angels. I believe I don't want to meet either of them in this world. I believe in guardian angels. I believe that the Holy Spirit whispers in a very soft voice and can soften the hearts of others and carries one bad ass monster of a stick. I believe in intercessory prayers. I believe that the power of confession, forgiveness, thankfulness and dying to self is more powerful than anything you will ever possess and leads to happiness and success.And therein lies your problem. Your mythical God exists in the same realm as ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick. Do you accept the existance of all of those, as well?God is supernatural. Science cannot prove or disprove the supernatural. Your religion of atheism is based as much on faith as mine is, I just have a good reason for my faith, whereas you don't.A scientific theory is as close to a fact as you are going to get to a fact. God isn't even a common theory because there's zero evidence. God is a hypothesis at bestUmmmm... that isn't proof, dumbass, that is theory. Do you have any fucking proof? The only proof we have is for the beginning. Do you need for me to show it to you so that you can understand the difference between proof and theory?
"southern" Baptist split from Baptists because they refused to free their slaves.You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.Atheists don't actually have a structured philosophy, so I don't think I'm obliged to call you anything. If atheists had some kind of unified belief system then distinctions of atheism might matter.Then I would prefer that you not lump me in with such. You have no idea of my history, or theological training, so referring to me as a "pop culture atheist" is as presumptive as it is insulting.Like any other social phenomenon these days days, pop culture atheists are multiplied by mass media, TV and Youtube are filled with glib pseudo intellectual philosophers. None the less their understanding of religion remains as superficial as their understanding of science.You keep talking about "pop culture atheists". What exactly do you mean by this, and how do "Pop Culture Atheiosts" differe from...classic (?) atheists?Pop culture atheists apparently believe that systems of morality evolve independently without historic or cultural influence.
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I did answer your question. My answer was.... Why should I? Was that beyond your intellect to grasp that I don't believe in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick? I then went on to tell you what beliefs I had in the supernatural world, right?You didn't answer my question.Do you believe in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick? Yes, or no.Why should I? I believe in angels and demons and that demons were angels. I believe I don't want to meet either of them in this world. I believe in guardian angels. I believe that the Holy Spirit whispers in a very soft voice and can soften the hearts of others and carries one bad ass monster of a stick. I believe in intercessory prayers. I believe that the power of confession, forgiveness, thankfulness and dying to self is more powerful than anything you will ever possess and leads to happiness and success.And therein lies your problem. Your mythical God exists in the same realm as ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick. Do you accept the existance of all of those, as well?God is supernatural. Science cannot prove or disprove the supernatural. Your religion of atheism is based as much on faith as mine is, I just have a good reason for my faith, whereas you don't.A scientific theory is as close to a fact as you are going to get to a fact. God isn't even a common theory because there's zero evidence. God is a hypothesis at best
The way I understand it is these mens choices and philosophy has led us towards being a religious, corrupt, rich control everything, ok to own slaves society where the masses are really stupid.The relativist moral philosophy of Socrates and Aristotle is what ultimately leads to Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin.That is a lie. It is your absolutism that justifies calling stopping Hitler wrong. In a world of your design, no one would have done anything to stop Hitler, and an entire race of people would have met with genocide. How would you justify sitting back and allowing that? The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. And yet that is precisely what you would have had all good men do in response to Hitler's atrocities - nothing.You didn't understand anything I wrote, did you? First of all, you have no basis for moral or immoral. What you are calling moral is really a preference because you have no concept of absolute good. I do. As such, I don't rationalize doing wrong as doing right. I adhere to a higher standard than you do. The act of not rationalizing keeps me attached to the absolute moral. Your worldview will and has justified a great many atrocities.So, stopping a man committing genocide was an immoral thing? Like I said...exposed as a moron. Such absolutism is moronic.The moral thing would have been to not rationalize that it was a moral thing. Why? Because it gets easier and easier the more one does so. Admit that what you are doing is not moral and that you knowingly choose to do it anyway is the better of the two options. That is the highest standard.So the moral thing for America, and the American president to do in 1941 would have been to do nothing, and allow Hitler to take over Europe, and continue his genocide of Jews? Really? That would have been moral?
How do you reason with people who believe in something that is supernatural and not even a part of our space and time?I don't disagree with CA. Atheists don't have beliefs per se. They have arguments against others having beliefs. God can no more be creation than a painter can be a painting. Looking for proof of God's existence won't be found in the natural world as God is a supernatural being who is not part of our space and time. Atheists require scientific proof of God's existence. That just isn't possible. The best we can do with science is to study what He has created and use that as indirect evidence for His existence. Atheists reject that concept. They argue that we cannot assume that God exists before we can use what He has created as evidence. The problem with that is that it is exactly backwards. That's not even how science works. Science begins by making observations and then formulating an idea of why it is the way it is and then they test that. Atheists on the other hand refuse to test its validity and instead use critical theory arguments to criticize what they don't believe to validate what they do believe. Which by the way can never be proven in the way they want because God is a supernatural being. They have a false belief that they are being critical thinkers but they are not. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you do believe to test its validity. So... atheists don't have beliefs (i.e. critical thinking). They have arguments (i.e. critical theory) against the beliefs of others, but in no way do they have a belief system that they can test. The reality is that believing or not believing is based on a leap of faith. Interestingly enough, the definition of faith is having trust in something. Atheists have trust in nothing.Many of your com-padres would disagree. There was a thread here about Atheism being a belief and a religion. To state an atheist only knows what they don't believe is a ridiculous statement. It first implies that an atheists knows nothing about anything else. I'm sure you don't believe the moon is made out of cheese. If there was a name for people not believing the moon was made out of cheese (let's call them noncasiests) then a statement like A Noncasiest only knows what they don't believe would be wrong and ridiculous. I know you are only trying to poke subtle jabs and insults because you actually have no argument. You also said to Czernobog that you are not obliged to call him anything right after you called him a pop culture atheist. Another little jab. How about staying away from ridiculous labels and argue the points.Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with the term "unified belief system". Obviously there are many different unified belief systems, religious and otherwise. Atheism simply doesn't happen to be one of them. Atheism, if it can even be considered a philosophical model of any kind, comprises no actual beliefs. They only know what they don't believe. Is that clear enough for you? Or can I expect yet another round of knee jerks?You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.Atheists don't actually have a structured philosophy, so I don't think I'm obliged to call you anything. If atheists had some kind of unified belief system then distinctions of atheism might matter.Then I would prefer that you not lump me in with such. You have no idea of my history, or theological training, so referring to me as a "pop culture atheist" is as presumptive as it is insulting.
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Or that there is proof but you aren't seeing it because you aren't doing it right. You have to want to believe.I have no problem with someone saying "I believe in God although I cannot prove his existence." What I have a problem with is one claims to have proof of God's existence and cannot provide any.I don't disagree with CA. Atheists don't have beliefs per se. They have arguments against others having beliefs. God can no more be creation than a painter can be a painting. Looking for proof of God's existence won't be found in the natural world as God is a supernatural being who is not part of our space and time. Atheists require scientific proof of God's existence. That just isn't possible. The best we can do with science is to study what He has created and use that as indirect evidence for His existence. Atheists reject that concept. They argue that we cannot assume that God exists before we can use what He has created as evidence. The problem with that is that it is exactly backwards. That's not even how science works. Science begins by making observations and then formulating an idea of why it is the way it is and then they test that. Atheists on the other hand refuse to test its validity and instead use critical theory arguments to criticize what they don't believe to validate what they do believe. Which by the way can never be proven in the way they want because God is a supernatural being. They have a false belief that they are being critical thinkers but they are not. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you do believe to test its validity. So... atheists don't have beliefs (i.e. critical thinking). They have arguments (i.e. critical theory) against the beliefs of others, but in no way do they have a belief system that they can test. The reality is that believing or not believing is based on a leap of faith. Interestingly enough, the definition of faith is having trust in something. Atheists have trust in nothing.Many of your com-padres would disagree. There was a thread here about Atheism being a belief and a religion. To state an atheist only knows what they don't believe is a ridiculous statement. It first implies that an atheists knows nothing about anything else. I'm sure you don't believe the moon is made out of cheese. If there was a name for people not believing the moon was made out of cheese (let's call them noncasiests) then a statement like A Noncasiest only knows what they don't believe would be wrong and ridiculous. I know you are only trying to poke subtle jabs and insults because you actually have no argument. You also said to Czernobog that you are not obliged to call him anything right after you called him a pop culture atheist. Another little jab. How about staying away from ridiculous labels and argue the points.Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with the term "unified belief system". Obviously there are many different unified belief systems, religious and otherwise. Atheism simply doesn't happen to be one of them. Atheism, if it can even be considered a philosophical model of any kind, comprises no actual beliefs. They only know what they don't believe. Is that clear enough for you? Or can I expect yet another round of knee jerks?You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.Atheists don't actually have a structured philosophy, so I don't think I'm obliged to call you anything. If atheists had some kind of unified belief system then distinctions of atheism might matter.
I am waiting too.I didn't claim Atheism was a religion. That claim was made by Christians in this forum. Please provide some sort of evidence for blind dogmatic faith by atheists. I will be waiting.Wrong again. Atheism isn't like religion. But the human behaviors of blind dogmatic faith are remarkably the same for both atheists and religious fundamentalists.Many of your com-padres would disagree. There was a thread here about Atheism being a belief and a religion. To state an atheist only knows what they don't believe is a ridiculous statement. It first implies that an atheists knows nothing about anything else. I'm sure you don't believe the moon is made out of cheese. If there was a name for people not believing the moon was made out of cheese (let's call them noncasiests) then a statement like A Noncasiest only knows what they don't believe would be wrong and ridiculous. I know you are only trying to poke subtle jabs and insults because you actually have no argument. You also said to Czernobog that you are not obliged to call him anything right after you called him a pop culture atheist. Another little jab. How about staying away from ridiculous labels and argue the points.Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with the term "unified belief system". Obviously there are many different unified belief systems, religious and otherwise. Atheism simply doesn't happen to be one of them. Atheism, if it can even be considered a philosophical model of any kind, comprises no actual beliefs. They only know what they don't believe. Is that clear enough for you? Or can I expect yet another round of knee jerks?You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.Atheists don't actually have a structured philosophy, so I don't think I'm obliged to call you anything. If atheists had some kind of unified belief system then distinctions of atheism might matter.
Give us an example ofWrong again. Atheism isn't like religion. But the human behaviors of blind dogmatic faith are remarkably the same for both atheists and religious fundamentalists.Many of your com-padres would disagree. There was a thread here about Atheism being a belief and a religion. To state an atheist only knows what they don't believe is a ridiculous statement. It first implies that an atheists knows nothing about anything else. I'm sure you don't believe the moon is made out of cheese. If there was a name for people not believing the moon was made out of cheese (let's call them noncasiests) then a statement like A Noncasiest only knows what they don't believe would be wrong and ridiculous. I know you are only trying to poke subtle jabs and insults because you actually have no argument. You also said to Czernobog that you are not obliged to call him anything right after you called him a pop culture atheist. Another little jab. How about staying away from ridiculous labels and argue the points.Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with the term "unified belief system". Obviously there are many different unified belief systems, religious and otherwise. Atheism simply doesn't happen to be one of them. Atheism, if it can even be considered a philosophical model of any kind, comprises no actual beliefs. They only know what they don't believe. Is that clear enough for you? Or can I expect yet another round of knee jerks?You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.Atheists don't actually have a structured philosophy, so I don't think I'm obliged to call you anything. If atheists had some kind of unified belief system then distinctions of atheism might matter.Then I would prefer that you not lump me in with such. You have no idea of my history, or theological training, so referring to me as a "pop culture atheist" is as presumptive as it is insulting.
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Of course not. It is not possible to follow God's Ways. His ways are higher than our ways. We are imperfect broken creatures trying to become adopted sons. The real problem is people not reading the Bible in its proper context. They read it like it was written yesterday with yesterday's knowledge and worldview. But if they read it in its proper context of 3000 and 2000 years ago, it would be different. Additionally, people do not appreciate that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. The nearest I can come to understanding that is that they were given visions which they did not fully understand and were allowed to put in into words and ways that man 3000 and 2000 years ago could understand. They were given great latitude in recording the laws which were not to the standard of God's laws but were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries of their day. So to say it is the infallible Word of God is probably not entirely true. So even though I do not believe that all of the laws written in the OT were what God necessarily intended, the reality is that what intention He did intend for us still challenges us today to meet. One final thought on the OT. Historians will tell you that the continued 3000 year existence and success of a people disproportionate to their numbers is inexplicable. When asked for the secret of their success, they give all credit to God. They don't see anything special about themselves. So their "chosenness" is the least arrogant answer they can make. I attribute their success to their standards which naturally lead to success. It is very Darwinian in that regard. Yes, they have cycled between remembering and forgetting God and His ways, but their journey and consequences are meant to serve as an example of how to live and how not to live for all.No one on earth chooses to follow the complete Law of the Bible. Do you consider all people evil or is it OK just to pick and choose certain passages in the Bible?Just because you don't understand something does not mean it isn't true.I don't believe in him but the diversity is because the bible is so vague, unclear and contradictory. Since Christians attribute the teachings of the bible to God then yes God would be responsible for any ambiguity found within it.That would be beyond God's control, lol. Don't blame Him for diversity of thought.You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.Atheists don't actually have a structured philosophy, so I don't think I'm obliged to call you anything. If atheists had some kind of unified belief system then distinctions of atheism might matter.
Even when it comes to God's law?We do have free will after all.
This makes no sense. I will allow you to explain yourself on this.The interesting thing though is the thing that you point to as a reason to not believe in God is in reality a reason to believe in God which is man's persistent belief in believing in God.
I didn't claim it was new. Nice deflection. There have also been people like yourself rejecting one man's hugher power for your own higher power.Don't kid yourself either, you are not making a new argument here. For as long as there have been men who believe in a higher power there have been people like you making arguments to not believe in a higher power.
The belief in a higher power or a god. That is easy. Fear, Child indoctrination and manipulation, lack of responsibility, tradition, comfort and assurance on death and the afterlife... many many more reasons.So one must wonder why has man persisted in this wholly irrational belief, right?
No, the fear of death is the main reason. Nothing else.The answer is simple, natural selection. It is hard wired into us.keep telling yourself thatMaybe your wires got crossed or your genes have not kicked in yet. There's really no telling.
Yes, we have free will even when it comes to God's law. We have free will to choose between good and evil.
Consequences for what? Be specific.Of course that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.
Yet in traditional Christian angelology, Virtue is the seventh highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy.Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to mankind.
Ones interpretation of success and failure are different from others. There are people on this planet who are ruthless, corrupt, greedy and irresponsible and yet they are idolized by many.It promotes order and harmony. Successful behaviors will naturally lead to success. Lack of virtue, not so much. Failed behaviors will naturally lead to failure.
Like I said. the consequences are always different. Look at it this way. Most people consider slavery to be wrong. Today owning a slave would be considered a failed behaviour. There was once a time for a lot of Christian devotees when owning a slave was considered a successful behaviour.So while we are free to choose between the two, our actions will have consequences.
But you do know when you are doing good without God. How many people throw rocks at people for growing improper rows in their garden. Do we stone to death anyone who works on Sunday? Of course not. We as humans figured that these bible laws were wrong on our own.He would not give us a way to figure out when we were doing good versus doing bad and rationalizing we were doing good.
Get back to me on this when you cover the part above about working on Sundays.Of course, I can understand your confusion in reading the Bible. The Bible is effectively a how to Book. How to live and how not to live. It can be confusing. It is also an account of a people who cycled between remembering His ways and forgetting His ways and what happens to them as they bounce back and forth.
No. Birth is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. It's really that simple.Birth is a forgetting and death is a remembering.
I'm not here to change your beliefs. In fact I'm happy that you are comfortable with your beliefs. Most atheists were once religious themselves, so to say it may not be their time in condescending.As you approach death, it will be made clear to you that He was always the matrix. Science tells us that the energy and matter that make up you was created when the universe was created.
Of course I will keep telling myself that because I believe it. It isn't your time yet and it may never be your time. No one knows but God.
So now the big bang is a fact not a theory? You are 100% sure of that? I worship science and even I am open to this being wrong. Maybewe are only 15000 years oldOf course not. It is not possible to follow God's Ways. His ways are higher than our ways. We are imperfect broken creatures trying to become adopted sons. The real problem is people not reading the Bible in its proper context. They read it like it was written yesterday with yesterday's knowledge and worldview. But if they read it in its proper context of 3000 and 2000 years ago, it would be different. Additionally, people do not appreciate that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. The nearest I can come to understanding that is that they were given visions which they did not fully understand and were allowed to put in into words and ways that man 3000 and 2000 years ago could understand. They were given great latitude in recording the laws which were not to the standard of God's laws but were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries of their day. So to say it is the infallible Word of God is probably not entirely true. So even though I do not believe that all of the laws written in the OT were what God necessarily intended, the reality is that what intention He did intend for us still challenges us today to meet. One final thought on the OT. Historians will tell you that the continued 3000 year existence and success of a people disproportionate to their numbers is inexplicable. When asked for the secret of their success, they give all credit to God. They don't see anything special about themselves. So their "chosenness" is the least arrogant answer they can make. I attribute their success to their standards which naturally lead to success. It is very Darwinian in that regard. Yes, they have cycled between remembering and forgetting God and His ways, but their journey and consequences are meant to serve as an example of how to live and how not to live for all.No one on earth chooses to follow the complete Law of the Bible. Do you consider all people evil or is it OK just to pick and choose certain passages in the Bible?Just because you don't understand something does not mean it isn't true.I don't believe in him but the diversity is because the bible is so vague, unclear and contradictory. Since Christians attribute the teachings of the bible to God then yes God would be responsible for any ambiguity found within it.That would be beyond God's control, lol. Don't blame Him for diversity of thought.You mean like all religious people having a structured philosophy, oh wait, there are over 1000 different religions. Well at least all Christians have a structured philosophy, oh wait there are hundreds of different types of Christianity, in fact some of these differences have been fought over to the death. Not really a unified belief system. The only unified system atheists have is they don't believe in God/gods. It's really that simple.
Even when it comes to God's law?We do have free will after all.
This makes no sense. I will allow you to explain yourself on this.The interesting thing though is the thing that you point to as a reason to not believe in God is in reality a reason to believe in God which is man's persistent belief in believing in God.
I didn't claim it was new. Nice deflection. There have also been people like yourself rejecting one man's hugher power for your own higher power.Don't kid yourself either, you are not making a new argument here. For as long as there have been men who believe in a higher power there have been people like you making arguments to not believe in a higher power.
The belief in a higher power or a god. That is easy. Fear, Child indoctrination and manipulation, lack of responsibility, tradition, comfort and assurance on death and the afterlife... many many more reasons.So one must wonder why has man persisted in this wholly irrational belief, right?
No, the fear of death is the main reason. Nothing else.The answer is simple, natural selection. It is hard wired into us.keep telling yourself thatMaybe your wires got crossed or your genes have not kicked in yet. There's really no telling.
Yes, we have free will even when it comes to God's law. We have free will to choose between good and evil.
Consequences for what? Be specific.Of course that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.
Yet in traditional Christian angelology, Virtue is the seventh highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy.Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to mankind.
Ones interpretation of success and failure are different from others. There are people on this planet who are ruthless, corrupt, greedy and irresponsible and yet they are idolized by many.It promotes order and harmony. Successful behaviors will naturally lead to success. Lack of virtue, not so much. Failed behaviors will naturally lead to failure.
Like I said. the consequences are always different. Look at it this way. Most people consider slavery to be wrong. Today owning a slave would be considered a failed behaviour. There was once a time for a lot of Christian devotees when owning a slave was considered a successful behaviour.So while we are free to choose between the two, our actions will have consequences.
But you do know when you are doing good without God. How many people throw rocks at people for growing improper rows in their garden. Do we stone to death anyone who works on Sunday? Of course not. We as humans figured that these bible laws were wrong on our own.He would not give us a way to figure out when we were doing good versus doing bad and rationalizing we were doing good.
Get back to me on this when you cover the part above about working on Sundays.Of course, I can understand your confusion in reading the Bible. The Bible is effectively a how to Book. How to live and how not to live. It can be confusing. It is also an account of a people who cycled between remembering His ways and forgetting His ways and what happens to them as they bounce back and forth.
No. Birth is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. It's really that simple.Birth is a forgetting and death is a remembering.
I'm not here to change your beliefs. In fact I'm happy that you are comfortable with your beliefs. Most atheists were once religious themselves, so to say it may not be their time in condescending.As you approach death, it will be made clear to you that He was always the matrix. Science tells us that the energy and matter that make up you was created when the universe was created.
Of course I will keep telling myself that because I believe it. It isn't your time yet and it may never be your time. No one knows but God.
I am not talking about afterlife consequences. I am talking about consequences of the here and now. Man knows right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes that he didn't. There is a law of compensation at work that allows man to tell the difference between doing right and rationalizing that he is doing right when he is really doing wrong. That law of compensation is called outcomes. We are allowed to make whatever errors we want, but since error cannot stand, it will eventually fail, and when it does if we are honest and paying attention, we will come to know the error of our way and repent which is really just a fancy word for transforming ourselves and progressing as human beings. It is very Darwinian. Consciousness is evolving just like every other phase of the evolution of matter before it and they are all controlled by the Laws of Nature which came into existence when space and time and the matter that makes up you came into existence. Violations of physical laws are immediate. Violations of moral laws are not, but just like there are consequences for violating physical laws of nature there are consequences for violating moral laws of nature.
I don't care what Christian angelology says. I don't even know what Christian angelology is. What I do know and what you should know is that two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time... all of the time. The same goes for thankful versus thankless and loving versus hateful and humble versus arrogant or kind versus cruel or forgiving versus vindictive, etc. No some of the time all of the time. So you tell me if you don't believe that virtue is the greatest organizing principle or not.
Do you really believe it matters what other people believe is the measure of success. I can tell you this with absolute scientific certainty... success does not lead to happiness. Happiness leads to success. Like I said before, virtue is a successful behavior. Doing the right thing, the right way for the right reason will naturally lead to success in all things. Mind you I did not say utopia. There's no such thing in a world of broken human beings. There will always be trials, tribulations, obstacles, challenges and storms. The question is whether one will have peace through the storm.
I believe that the spirit of God is within everyone, so I don't dispute people can do good. I dispute they can do good without God. I have already explained to you the OT and context. I don't need to do it again. You are free to see them anyway you want. I seriously could not care less.
I explained what I meant in more detail to CA in post # 414 on the slight differences in the form of God in the major religions, but similarities on the teaching of His Ways. If you can't figure it out from that I doubt I can help you understand it, but to suffice it to say asking us to understand the nature of God and all see it the same way is akin to asking ants to understand us.
You are absolutely right that just wanting something to be true does not make it true. Most people don't believe what they do because they believe in what they do, they believe it because they believe that they can't be wrong. There are very few exceptions to this. The only way to see objective truth is to die to self and have no preference for an outcome or consequences to one's self. This is the 6th stage of the morality progression as defined through science. Only then can someone see reality for what it is. We're great at seeing the reality of others but no so good at seeing our own. This goes back to the whole rationalization thingee I spoke of earlier.
The Commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was written for men, not God. We were told to do as the Original Worker did, to create for 6 days and then rest. We are supposed to get so much satisfaction from creating that we would need to be told to take a break from it. Unfortunately, most people see creating as a chore, a drudgery, something they do for money, something they do to get to the weekend. Those people are dead already. No wonder they hate living.
Believe what you want but conception is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. The matter and energy that make up who you are was created 14 billion years ago. That is a scientific fact.
Condescending is a term that has a negative connotation. That's not how that word was first used. Yes. I am condescending to you, but not how you believe I am.
Laughing leads to crying.I am alive (have soul) and apparently I have a faith too according to you. My faith provides me with comfort too. The truth is the wayNo. I'm ok with atheists either way. I couldn't care less because I know there is a law of compensation at work which will eventually correct all errors. It is only a matter of time. I have no preference for an outcome because I have peace. I accept things the way they are. You don't and I doubt you ever will until right before you die. Each of us are on our own journey. We collide with each other, yet our accountabilities stay with us. Nothing you do can harm me. Only I can harm myself. I have a soul and I have my faith. What do you have?Sooo...you're okay with atheists...just so long as they are conservatives?Ayn Rand was a conservative. You're not.Like to suggest we're all socialists or commies. Tell that to Ayn randYou're attitude towards atheists is clear in your misrepresentation of who atheists are, and your assumption that you know how "all athiests" think. Just because you want to dishonestly pretend like you have no animosity, it doesn't mean that the animosity isn't obvious.
Science proves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al or it disproves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al. Science is never conclusive because laws, theories, principles, et al are always subject to revision if new data comes along - up to and including refuting the laws, theories, principles, et al.So now the big bang is a fact not a theory? You are 100% sure of that? I worship science and even I am open to this being wrong. Maybewe are only 15000 years oldOf course not. It is not possible to follow God's Ways. His ways are higher than our ways. We are imperfect broken creatures trying to become adopted sons. The real problem is people not reading the Bible in its proper context. They read it like it was written yesterday with yesterday's knowledge and worldview. But if they read it in its proper context of 3000 and 2000 years ago, it would be different. Additionally, people do not appreciate that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. The nearest I can come to understanding that is that they were given visions which they did not fully understand and were allowed to put in into words and ways that man 3000 and 2000 years ago could understand. They were given great latitude in recording the laws which were not to the standard of God's laws but were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries of their day. So to say it is the infallible Word of God is probably not entirely true. So even though I do not believe that all of the laws written in the OT were what God necessarily intended, the reality is that what intention He did intend for us still challenges us today to meet. One final thought on the OT. Historians will tell you that the continued 3000 year existence and success of a people disproportionate to their numbers is inexplicable. When asked for the secret of their success, they give all credit to God. They don't see anything special about themselves. So their "chosenness" is the least arrogant answer they can make. I attribute their success to their standards which naturally lead to success. It is very Darwinian in that regard. Yes, they have cycled between remembering and forgetting God and His ways, but their journey and consequences are meant to serve as an example of how to live and how not to live for all.No one on earth chooses to follow the complete Law of the Bible. Do you consider all people evil or is it OK just to pick and choose certain passages in the Bible?Just because you don't understand something does not mean it isn't true.I don't believe in him but the diversity is because the bible is so vague, unclear and contradictory. Since Christians attribute the teachings of the bible to God then yes God would be responsible for any ambiguity found within it.That would be beyond God's control, lol. Don't blame Him for diversity of thought.
Even when it comes to God's law?We do have free will after all.
This makes no sense. I will allow you to explain yourself on this.The interesting thing though is the thing that you point to as a reason to not believe in God is in reality a reason to believe in God which is man's persistent belief in believing in God.
I didn't claim it was new. Nice deflection. There have also been people like yourself rejecting one man's hugher power for your own higher power.Don't kid yourself either, you are not making a new argument here. For as long as there have been men who believe in a higher power there have been people like you making arguments to not believe in a higher power.
The belief in a higher power or a god. That is easy. Fear, Child indoctrination and manipulation, lack of responsibility, tradition, comfort and assurance on death and the afterlife... many many more reasons.So one must wonder why has man persisted in this wholly irrational belief, right?
No, the fear of death is the main reason. Nothing else.The answer is simple, natural selection. It is hard wired into us.keep telling yourself thatMaybe your wires got crossed or your genes have not kicked in yet. There's really no telling.
Yes, we have free will even when it comes to God's law. We have free will to choose between good and evil.
Consequences for what? Be specific.Of course that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.
Yet in traditional Christian angelology, Virtue is the seventh highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy.Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to mankind.
Ones interpretation of success and failure are different from others. There are people on this planet who are ruthless, corrupt, greedy and irresponsible and yet they are idolized by many.It promotes order and harmony. Successful behaviors will naturally lead to success. Lack of virtue, not so much. Failed behaviors will naturally lead to failure.
Like I said. the consequences are always different. Look at it this way. Most people consider slavery to be wrong. Today owning a slave would be considered a failed behaviour. There was once a time for a lot of Christian devotees when owning a slave was considered a successful behaviour.So while we are free to choose between the two, our actions will have consequences.
But you do know when you are doing good without God. How many people throw rocks at people for growing improper rows in their garden. Do we stone to death anyone who works on Sunday? Of course not. We as humans figured that these bible laws were wrong on our own.He would not give us a way to figure out when we were doing good versus doing bad and rationalizing we were doing good.
Get back to me on this when you cover the part above about working on Sundays.Of course, I can understand your confusion in reading the Bible. The Bible is effectively a how to Book. How to live and how not to live. It can be confusing. It is also an account of a people who cycled between remembering His ways and forgetting His ways and what happens to them as they bounce back and forth.
No. Birth is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. It's really that simple.Birth is a forgetting and death is a remembering.
I'm not here to change your beliefs. In fact I'm happy that you are comfortable with your beliefs. Most atheists were once religious themselves, so to say it may not be their time in condescending.As you approach death, it will be made clear to you that He was always the matrix. Science tells us that the energy and matter that make up you was created when the universe was created.
Of course I will keep telling myself that because I believe it. It isn't your time yet and it may never be your time. No one knows but God.
I am not talking about afterlife consequences. I am talking about consequences of the here and now. Man knows right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes that he didn't. There is a law of compensation at work that allows man to tell the difference between doing right and rationalizing that he is doing right when he is really doing wrong. That law of compensation is called outcomes. We are allowed to make whatever errors we want, but since error cannot stand, it will eventually fail, and when it does if we are honest and paying attention, we will come to know the error of our way and repent which is really just a fancy word for transforming ourselves and progressing as human beings. It is very Darwinian. Consciousness is evolving just like every other phase of the evolution of matter before it and they are all controlled by the Laws of Nature which came into existence when space and time and the matter that makes up you came into existence. Violations of physical laws are immediate. Violations of moral laws are not, but just like there are consequences for violating physical laws of nature there are consequences for violating moral laws of nature.
I don't care what Christian angelology says. I don't even know what Christian angelology is. What I do know and what you should know is that two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time... all of the time. The same goes for thankful versus thankless and loving versus hateful and humble versus arrogant or kind versus cruel or forgiving versus vindictive, etc. No some of the time all of the time. So you tell me if you don't believe that virtue is the greatest organizing principle or not.
Do you really believe it matters what other people believe is the measure of success. I can tell you this with absolute scientific certainty... success does not lead to happiness. Happiness leads to success. Like I said before, virtue is a successful behavior. Doing the right thing, the right way for the right reason will naturally lead to success in all things. Mind you I did not say utopia. There's no such thing in a world of broken human beings. There will always be trials, tribulations, obstacles, challenges and storms. The question is whether one will have peace through the storm.
I believe that the spirit of God is within everyone, so I don't dispute people can do good. I dispute they can do good without God. I have already explained to you the OT and context. I don't need to do it again. You are free to see them anyway you want. I seriously could not care less.
I explained what I meant in more detail to CA in post # 414 on the slight differences in the form of God in the major religions, but similarities on the teaching of His Ways. If you can't figure it out from that I doubt I can help you understand it, but to suffice it to say asking us to understand the nature of God and all see it the same way is akin to asking ants to understand us.
You are absolutely right that just wanting something to be true does not make it true. Most people don't believe what they do because they believe in what they do, they believe it because they believe that they can't be wrong. There are very few exceptions to this. The only way to see objective truth is to die to self and have no preference for an outcome or consequences to one's self. This is the 6th stage of the morality progression as defined through science. Only then can someone see reality for what it is. We're great at seeing the reality of others but no so good at seeing our own. This goes back to the whole rationalization thingee I spoke of earlier.
The Commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was written for men, not God. We were told to do as the Original Worker did, to create for 6 days and then rest. We are supposed to get so much satisfaction from creating that we would need to be told to take a break from it. Unfortunately, most people see creating as a chore, a drudgery, something they do for money, something they do to get to the weekend. Those people are dead already. No wonder they hate living.
Believe what you want but conception is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. The matter and energy that make up who you are was created 14 billion years ago. That is a scientific fact.
Condescending is a term that has a negative connotation. That's not how that word was first used. Yes. I am condescending to you, but not how you believe I am.
I know you do. I've always known you did. That's what makes you a militant atheist.I think religion is bad. I can't help it. When I think religion is harmless I'll stop.Yes. I was one of those people, but let me clarify that. Atheism in and of itself is not a religion. It only manifests itself as a religion when it becomes dogmatic like a religion and its adherents act like it is a religion. That does not apply to the vast majority of atheists most of whom have no interest in God or religion at all, but it does apply to militant atheists who attack other religions like a rival religion attacks a fellow rival religion. Protestants and Catholics come to mind as well as Sunnis and Shiites. I have posted the dogmatic faith of these militant atheists. It is listed at the bottom of every one of my posts. It is not something new. It is not something I made up. It has been observed and discussed for over 100 years.I didn't claim Atheism was a religion. That claim was made by Christians in this forum. Please provide some sort of evidence for blind dogmatic faith by atheists. I will be waiting.Wrong again. Atheism isn't like religion. But the human behaviors of blind dogmatic faith are remarkably the same for both atheists and religious fundamentalists.Many of your com-padres would disagree. There was a thread here about Atheism being a belief and a religion. To state an atheist only knows what they don't believe is a ridiculous statement. It first implies that an atheists knows nothing about anything else. I'm sure you don't believe the moon is made out of cheese. If there was a name for people not believing the moon was made out of cheese (let's call them noncasiests) then a statement like A Noncasiest only knows what they don't believe would be wrong and ridiculous. I know you are only trying to poke subtle jabs and insults because you actually have no argument. You also said to Czernobog that you are not obliged to call him anything right after you called him a pop culture atheist. Another little jab. How about staying away from ridiculous labels and argue the points.Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with the term "unified belief system". Obviously there are many different unified belief systems, religious and otherwise. Atheism simply doesn't happen to be one of them. Atheism, if it can even be considered a philosophical model of any kind, comprises no actual beliefs. They only know what they don't believe. Is that clear enough for you? Or can I expect yet another round of knee jerks?
For example George Bush used the stupidity of religion to win. People deny science because of religion. And Muslims CuT off heads over it. Sorry these things bother me
But I still vote for religious idiots. But would you religious idiots vote for an admitted atheist? No you wouldn't. So who's got the problem here?
This is all in your head.No because no one threatened him with hell or promised eternal life if he believes those things.You didn't answer my question.Do you believe in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick? Yes, or no.Why should I? I believe in angels and demons and that demons were angels. I believe I don't want to meet either of them in this world. I believe in guardian angels. I believe that the Holy Spirit whispers in a very soft voice and can soften the hearts of others and carries one bad ass monster of a stick. I believe in intercessory prayers. I believe that the power of confession, forgiveness, thankfulness and dying to self is more powerful than anything you will ever possess and leads to happiness and success.And therein lies your problem. Your mythical God exists in the same realm as ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick. Do you accept the existance of all of those, as well?God is supernatural. Science cannot prove or disprove the supernatural. Your religion of atheism is based as much on faith as mine is, I just have a good reason for my faith, whereas you don't.A scientific theory is as close to a fact as you are going to get to a fact. God isn't even a common theory because there's zero evidence. God is a hypothesis at best
How do you know 100% sure it was 14 billion years ago was my point. You said that was a scientific fact. If that's a fact so is evolution.Science proves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al or it disproves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al. Science is never conclusive because laws, theories, principles, et al are always subject to revision if new data comes along - up to and including refuting the laws, theories, principles, et al.So now the big bang is a fact not a theory? You are 100% sure of that? I worship science and even I am open to this being wrong. Maybewe are only 15000 years oldOf course not. It is not possible to follow God's Ways. His ways are higher than our ways. We are imperfect broken creatures trying to become adopted sons. The real problem is people not reading the Bible in its proper context. They read it like it was written yesterday with yesterday's knowledge and worldview. But if they read it in its proper context of 3000 and 2000 years ago, it would be different. Additionally, people do not appreciate that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. The nearest I can come to understanding that is that they were given visions which they did not fully understand and were allowed to put in into words and ways that man 3000 and 2000 years ago could understand. They were given great latitude in recording the laws which were not to the standard of God's laws but were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries of their day. So to say it is the infallible Word of God is probably not entirely true. So even though I do not believe that all of the laws written in the OT were what God necessarily intended, the reality is that what intention He did intend for us still challenges us today to meet. One final thought on the OT. Historians will tell you that the continued 3000 year existence and success of a people disproportionate to their numbers is inexplicable. When asked for the secret of their success, they give all credit to God. They don't see anything special about themselves. So their "chosenness" is the least arrogant answer they can make. I attribute their success to their standards which naturally lead to success. It is very Darwinian in that regard. Yes, they have cycled between remembering and forgetting God and His ways, but their journey and consequences are meant to serve as an example of how to live and how not to live for all.No one on earth chooses to follow the complete Law of the Bible. Do you consider all people evil or is it OK just to pick and choose certain passages in the Bible?Just because you don't understand something does not mean it isn't true.I don't believe in him but the diversity is because the bible is so vague, unclear and contradictory. Since Christians attribute the teachings of the bible to God then yes God would be responsible for any ambiguity found within it.
Even when it comes to God's law?
This makes no sense. I will allow you to explain yourself on this.
I didn't claim it was new. Nice deflection. There have also been people like yourself rejecting one man's hugher power for your own higher power.
The belief in a higher power or a god. That is easy. Fear, Child indoctrination and manipulation, lack of responsibility, tradition, comfort and assurance on death and the afterlife... many many more reasons.
No, the fear of death is the main reason. Nothing else. keep telling yourself that
Yes, we have free will even when it comes to God's law. We have free will to choose between good and evil.
Consequences for what? Be specific.Of course that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.
Yet in traditional Christian angelology, Virtue is the seventh highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy.Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to mankind.
Ones interpretation of success and failure are different from others. There are people on this planet who are ruthless, corrupt, greedy and irresponsible and yet they are idolized by many.It promotes order and harmony. Successful behaviors will naturally lead to success. Lack of virtue, not so much. Failed behaviors will naturally lead to failure.
Like I said. the consequences are always different. Look at it this way. Most people consider slavery to be wrong. Today owning a slave would be considered a failed behaviour. There was once a time for a lot of Christian devotees when owning a slave was considered a successful behaviour.So while we are free to choose between the two, our actions will have consequences.
But you do know when you are doing good without God. How many people throw rocks at people for growing improper rows in their garden. Do we stone to death anyone who works on Sunday? Of course not. We as humans figured that these bible laws were wrong on our own.He would not give us a way to figure out when we were doing good versus doing bad and rationalizing we were doing good.
Get back to me on this when you cover the part above about working on Sundays.Of course, I can understand your confusion in reading the Bible. The Bible is effectively a how to Book. How to live and how not to live. It can be confusing. It is also an account of a people who cycled between remembering His ways and forgetting His ways and what happens to them as they bounce back and forth.
No. Birth is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. It's really that simple.Birth is a forgetting and death is a remembering.
I'm not here to change your beliefs. In fact I'm happy that you are comfortable with your beliefs. Most atheists were once religious themselves, so to say it may not be their time in condescending.As you approach death, it will be made clear to you that He was always the matrix. Science tells us that the energy and matter that make up you was created when the universe was created.
Of course I will keep telling myself that because I believe it. It isn't your time yet and it may never be your time. No one knows but God.
I am not talking about afterlife consequences. I am talking about consequences of the here and now. Man knows right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes that he didn't. There is a law of compensation at work that allows man to tell the difference between doing right and rationalizing that he is doing right when he is really doing wrong. That law of compensation is called outcomes. We are allowed to make whatever errors we want, but since error cannot stand, it will eventually fail, and when it does if we are honest and paying attention, we will come to know the error of our way and repent which is really just a fancy word for transforming ourselves and progressing as human beings. It is very Darwinian. Consciousness is evolving just like every other phase of the evolution of matter before it and they are all controlled by the Laws of Nature which came into existence when space and time and the matter that makes up you came into existence. Violations of physical laws are immediate. Violations of moral laws are not, but just like there are consequences for violating physical laws of nature there are consequences for violating moral laws of nature.
I don't care what Christian angelology says. I don't even know what Christian angelology is. What I do know and what you should know is that two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time... all of the time. The same goes for thankful versus thankless and loving versus hateful and humble versus arrogant or kind versus cruel or forgiving versus vindictive, etc. No some of the time all of the time. So you tell me if you don't believe that virtue is the greatest organizing principle or not.
Do you really believe it matters what other people believe is the measure of success. I can tell you this with absolute scientific certainty... success does not lead to happiness. Happiness leads to success. Like I said before, virtue is a successful behavior. Doing the right thing, the right way for the right reason will naturally lead to success in all things. Mind you I did not say utopia. There's no such thing in a world of broken human beings. There will always be trials, tribulations, obstacles, challenges and storms. The question is whether one will have peace through the storm.
I believe that the spirit of God is within everyone, so I don't dispute people can do good. I dispute they can do good without God. I have already explained to you the OT and context. I don't need to do it again. You are free to see them anyway you want. I seriously could not care less.
I explained what I meant in more detail to CA in post # 414 on the slight differences in the form of God in the major religions, but similarities on the teaching of His Ways. If you can't figure it out from that I doubt I can help you understand it, but to suffice it to say asking us to understand the nature of God and all see it the same way is akin to asking ants to understand us.
You are absolutely right that just wanting something to be true does not make it true. Most people don't believe what they do because they believe in what they do, they believe it because they believe that they can't be wrong. There are very few exceptions to this. The only way to see objective truth is to die to self and have no preference for an outcome or consequences to one's self. This is the 6th stage of the morality progression as defined through science. Only then can someone see reality for what it is. We're great at seeing the reality of others but no so good at seeing our own. This goes back to the whole rationalization thingee I spoke of earlier.
The Commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was written for men, not God. We were told to do as the Original Worker did, to create for 6 days and then rest. We are supposed to get so much satisfaction from creating that we would need to be told to take a break from it. Unfortunately, most people see creating as a chore, a drudgery, something they do for money, something they do to get to the weekend. Those people are dead already. No wonder they hate living.
Believe what you want but conception is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. The matter and energy that make up who you are was created 14 billion years ago. That is a scientific fact.
Condescending is a term that has a negative connotation. That's not how that word was first used. Yes. I am condescending to you, but not how you believe I am.
Some people have said that science can't disprove the existence of something. I say to those people, if science can't really disprove the existence of something, then science can't really prove the existence of something either.
So, we are left with having to accept that practically speaking, science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al
or
That everything is taken on faith as nothing can really be proven.
So for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume the former; that practically speaking science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al.
Practically speaking, the universe had a beginning. Unless of course you don't see anymore usable energy in the closed system.
Like godThis is all in your head.No because no one threatened him with hell or promised eternal life if he believes those things.You didn't answer my question.Do you believe in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick? Yes, or no.Why should I? I believe in angels and demons and that demons were angels. I believe I don't want to meet either of them in this world. I believe in guardian angels. I believe that the Holy Spirit whispers in a very soft voice and can soften the hearts of others and carries one bad ass monster of a stick. I believe in intercessory prayers. I believe that the power of confession, forgiveness, thankfulness and dying to self is more powerful than anything you will ever possess and leads to happiness and success.And therein lies your problem. Your mythical God exists in the same realm as ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick. Do you accept the existance of all of those, as well?God is supernatural. Science cannot prove or disprove the supernatural. Your religion of atheism is based as much on faith as mine is, I just have a good reason for my faith, whereas you don't.
Your actions say otherwise.Yes I am because I admit you can't know either way but I lean towards not believing there is a God.No. You are not.That's why I'm an agnostic atheistAtheists are just as deluded as theists as there's no proof that a god can't exist.
Yes. I'm good, but I'm not that good. If you like we could call it 14 1/2 billion years ago. Would that make you feel better?How do you know 100% sure it was 14 billion years ago was my point. You said that was a scientific fact. If that's a fact so is evolution.Science proves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al or it disproves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al. Science is never conclusive because laws, theories, principles, et al are always subject to revision if new data comes along - up to and including refuting the laws, theories, principles, et al.So now the big bang is a fact not a theory? You are 100% sure of that? I worship science and even I am open to this being wrong. Maybewe are only 15000 years oldOf course not. It is not possible to follow God's Ways. His ways are higher than our ways. We are imperfect broken creatures trying to become adopted sons. The real problem is people not reading the Bible in its proper context. They read it like it was written yesterday with yesterday's knowledge and worldview. But if they read it in its proper context of 3000 and 2000 years ago, it would be different. Additionally, people do not appreciate that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. The nearest I can come to understanding that is that they were given visions which they did not fully understand and were allowed to put in into words and ways that man 3000 and 2000 years ago could understand. They were given great latitude in recording the laws which were not to the standard of God's laws but were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries of their day. So to say it is the infallible Word of God is probably not entirely true. So even though I do not believe that all of the laws written in the OT were what God necessarily intended, the reality is that what intention He did intend for us still challenges us today to meet. One final thought on the OT. Historians will tell you that the continued 3000 year existence and success of a people disproportionate to their numbers is inexplicable. When asked for the secret of their success, they give all credit to God. They don't see anything special about themselves. So their "chosenness" is the least arrogant answer they can make. I attribute their success to their standards which naturally lead to success. It is very Darwinian in that regard. Yes, they have cycled between remembering and forgetting God and His ways, but their journey and consequences are meant to serve as an example of how to live and how not to live for all.No one on earth chooses to follow the complete Law of the Bible. Do you consider all people evil or is it OK just to pick and choose certain passages in the Bible?Just because you don't understand something does not mean it isn't true.
Yes, we have free will even when it comes to God's law. We have free will to choose between good and evil.
Consequences for what? Be specific.Of course that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.
Yet in traditional Christian angelology, Virtue is the seventh highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy.Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to mankind.
Ones interpretation of success and failure are different from others. There are people on this planet who are ruthless, corrupt, greedy and irresponsible and yet they are idolized by many.It promotes order and harmony. Successful behaviors will naturally lead to success. Lack of virtue, not so much. Failed behaviors will naturally lead to failure.
Like I said. the consequences are always different. Look at it this way. Most people consider slavery to be wrong. Today owning a slave would be considered a failed behaviour. There was once a time for a lot of Christian devotees when owning a slave was considered a successful behaviour.So while we are free to choose between the two, our actions will have consequences.
But you do know when you are doing good without God. How many people throw rocks at people for growing improper rows in their garden. Do we stone to death anyone who works on Sunday? Of course not. We as humans figured that these bible laws were wrong on our own.He would not give us a way to figure out when we were doing good versus doing bad and rationalizing we were doing good.
Get back to me on this when you cover the part above about working on Sundays.Of course, I can understand your confusion in reading the Bible. The Bible is effectively a how to Book. How to live and how not to live. It can be confusing. It is also an account of a people who cycled between remembering His ways and forgetting His ways and what happens to them as they bounce back and forth.
No. Birth is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. It's really that simple.Birth is a forgetting and death is a remembering.
I'm not here to change your beliefs. In fact I'm happy that you are comfortable with your beliefs. Most atheists were once religious themselves, so to say it may not be their time in condescending.As you approach death, it will be made clear to you that He was always the matrix. Science tells us that the energy and matter that make up you was created when the universe was created.
Of course I will keep telling myself that because I believe it. It isn't your time yet and it may never be your time. No one knows but God.
I am not talking about afterlife consequences. I am talking about consequences of the here and now. Man knows right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes that he didn't. There is a law of compensation at work that allows man to tell the difference between doing right and rationalizing that he is doing right when he is really doing wrong. That law of compensation is called outcomes. We are allowed to make whatever errors we want, but since error cannot stand, it will eventually fail, and when it does if we are honest and paying attention, we will come to know the error of our way and repent which is really just a fancy word for transforming ourselves and progressing as human beings. It is very Darwinian. Consciousness is evolving just like every other phase of the evolution of matter before it and they are all controlled by the Laws of Nature which came into existence when space and time and the matter that makes up you came into existence. Violations of physical laws are immediate. Violations of moral laws are not, but just like there are consequences for violating physical laws of nature there are consequences for violating moral laws of nature.
I don't care what Christian angelology says. I don't even know what Christian angelology is. What I do know and what you should know is that two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time... all of the time. The same goes for thankful versus thankless and loving versus hateful and humble versus arrogant or kind versus cruel or forgiving versus vindictive, etc. No some of the time all of the time. So you tell me if you don't believe that virtue is the greatest organizing principle or not.
Do you really believe it matters what other people believe is the measure of success. I can tell you this with absolute scientific certainty... success does not lead to happiness. Happiness leads to success. Like I said before, virtue is a successful behavior. Doing the right thing, the right way for the right reason will naturally lead to success in all things. Mind you I did not say utopia. There's no such thing in a world of broken human beings. There will always be trials, tribulations, obstacles, challenges and storms. The question is whether one will have peace through the storm.
I believe that the spirit of God is within everyone, so I don't dispute people can do good. I dispute they can do good without God. I have already explained to you the OT and context. I don't need to do it again. You are free to see them anyway you want. I seriously could not care less.
I explained what I meant in more detail to CA in post # 414 on the slight differences in the form of God in the major religions, but similarities on the teaching of His Ways. If you can't figure it out from that I doubt I can help you understand it, but to suffice it to say asking us to understand the nature of God and all see it the same way is akin to asking ants to understand us.
You are absolutely right that just wanting something to be true does not make it true. Most people don't believe what they do because they believe in what they do, they believe it because they believe that they can't be wrong. There are very few exceptions to this. The only way to see objective truth is to die to self and have no preference for an outcome or consequences to one's self. This is the 6th stage of the morality progression as defined through science. Only then can someone see reality for what it is. We're great at seeing the reality of others but no so good at seeing our own. This goes back to the whole rationalization thingee I spoke of earlier.
The Commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was written for men, not God. We were told to do as the Original Worker did, to create for 6 days and then rest. We are supposed to get so much satisfaction from creating that we would need to be told to take a break from it. Unfortunately, most people see creating as a chore, a drudgery, something they do for money, something they do to get to the weekend. Those people are dead already. No wonder they hate living.
Believe what you want but conception is the beginning of life and death is the end of life. The matter and energy that make up who you are was created 14 billion years ago. That is a scientific fact.
Condescending is a term that has a negative connotation. That's not how that word was first used. Yes. I am condescending to you, but not how you believe I am.
Some people have said that science can't disprove the existence of something. I say to those people, if science can't really disprove the existence of something, then science can't really prove the existence of something either.
So, we are left with having to accept that practically speaking, science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al
or
That everything is taken on faith as nothing can really be proven.
So for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume the former; that practically speaking science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al.
Practically speaking, the universe had a beginning. Unless of course you don't see anymore usable energy in the closed system.
You're just saying our universe had a beginning. Not the exact date. Got it.
Their religion is socialism which worships big government and social policy. It is based on atheism and deification of man.Like godThis is all in your head.No because no one threatened him with hell or promised eternal life if he believes those things.You didn't answer my question.Do you believe in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick? Yes, or no.Why should I? I believe in angels and demons and that demons were angels. I believe I don't want to meet either of them in this world. I believe in guardian angels. I believe that the Holy Spirit whispers in a very soft voice and can soften the hearts of others and carries one bad ass monster of a stick. I believe in intercessory prayers. I believe that the power of confession, forgiveness, thankfulness and dying to self is more powerful than anything you will ever possess and leads to happiness and success.And therein lies your problem. Your mythical God exists in the same realm as ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and magick. Do you accept the existance of all of those, as well?
Vanity is satan's favorite sin..For anyone to imagine humanity even begins to be capable of perceiving, let alone understanding the totality of what comprises a universe, shows an incredibly arrogant and amazingly simplistic view of life. Not to mention being devoid of any self awareness.I don't really care enough to make it my job to convince you. Sorry. I have proven to myself that God exists. You don't accept it. I'm cool with that. I don't need to validate my beliefs through your non-belief. That's what you are doing here, brother.Not my job. You want to prove that God exists, you find the objective evidence, and present it.So where exactly do you believe you can find this object evidence you aren't seeking?I understand. However, were you presented with objective evidence that the "God who visited" existed, would you change your position? That is my point, atheists do not argue that God can't exist; only that God doesn't exist, until object evidence proves otherwise.
shows an incredibly arrogant and amazingly simplistic view of life.
as the vanity of self reflection ...
