atheists will love this.....

[Anguille]

Every religion is unprovable without godly intervention and that includes atheism.

God can prove atheism is true?

 

[Kalam]

The point is that Atheism being built upon logic and reason

Atheism is built upon a lack of empirical evidence and generally fails to consider most logical arguments. I'll contend that deism and agnosticism are far more logical and rational given our current knowledge, or lack thereof.

 

[Anguille]

During the time of ignorance, Arabian women, with few exceptions, were chattel. Women, like slaves, were sold by their families into marriage. Marriages could only be terminated if the husband willed it. Wives were, like all property, inheritable. Female (and in some cases, male) children were typically seen as a financial liability and a curse, so infanticide was commonplace. Islam ended these practices by recognizing the rights of women as human beings and the necessity of treating them as such. Property rights were recognized, women could decide themselves to divorce, infanticide was banned, etc.

Whereas women in England, where the Anglican church is the official state religion, had to wait several more centuries before being granted the right to own property or keep their own children after a divorce.

 

[Anguille]

The point is that Atheism being built upon logic and reason

Atheism is built upon a lack of empirical evidence and generally fails to consider most logical arguments. I'll contend that deism and agnosticism are far more logical and rational given our current knowledge, or lack thereof.

Atheism requires faith.

 

[dilloduck]

During the time of ignorance, Arabian women, with few exceptions, were chattel. Women, like slaves, were sold by their families into marriage. Marriages could only be terminated if the husband willed it. Wives were, like all property, inheritable. Female (and in some cases, male) children were typically seen as a financial liability and a curse, so infanticide was commonplace. Islam ended these practices by recognizing the rights of women as human beings and the necessity of treating them as such. Property rights were recognized, women could decide themselves to divorce, infanticide was banned, etc.

Whereas women in England, where the Anglican church is the official state religion, had to wait several more centuries before being granted the right to own property or keep their own children after a divorce.

and humanity has suffered ever since.

 

[Anguille]

During the time of ignorance, Arabian women, with few exceptions, were chattel. Women, like slaves, were sold by their families into marriage. Marriages could only be terminated if the husband willed it. Wives were, like all property, inheritable. Female (and in some cases, male) children were typically seen as a financial liability and a curse, so infanticide was commonplace. Islam ended these practices by recognizing the rights of women as human beings and the necessity of treating them as such. Property rights were recognized, women could decide themselves to divorce, infanticide was banned, etc.

Whereas women in England, where the Anglican church is the official state religion, had to wait several more centuries before being granted the right to own property or keep their own children after a divorce.

and humanity has suffered ever since.

I just noticed that your avatar has loopholes.

 

[dilloduck]

Whereas women in England, where the Anglican church is the official state religion, had to wait several more centuries before being granted the right to own property or keep their own children after a divorce.

and humanity has suffered ever since.

I just noticed that your avatar has loopholes.

if anyone could find em, it would be you.

 

[JBeukema]

Atheism is built upon a lack of empirical evidence and generally fails to consider most logical arguments. I'll contend that deism and agnosticism are far more logical and rational given our current knowledge, or lack thereof.

HAHAHAHA

Funny AND stupid

Atheism require faith.

HAHA! there are two of them!

 

[Newby]

Classic case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. How anyone who claims to be an athiest and can bitch and moan about Christianity but then embrace Islam and do it with a straight face is anyone's guess. But, highly amusing in any case.

Because to non-believers both religions are equally without merit and their adherents equally good and bad. Kalam is a reasonable and logically-minded believer. We non-believers at least can respect that even if we don't understand it. Kalam also never preaches or uses the Quran as the end all be all of concrete evidence for stupid behavior like the extremists of both religiouns do.

And this isn't 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend", its more like: "Hey, I'm an agnostic and I can change my mind when I am exposed to new information because, unlike my religious peers, I don't dogmatically believe in arbitrary rules and ancient texts or imaginary creators or long-deceased saviors or prophets or miracles that don't happen anymore, etc. etc. etc."

Its an advantage we non-believers have over you dogmatics.

Frankly, you're full of shit. I've never once seen you bash Islam or extremist terrorists, I have however seen you bash Christians and your own country and military for their actions on numerous occasions. You're an apologist because of your hatred for Christians, it's really quite plain to see.

I've seen Kalam use the Quran on many occasions to defend his position, so I'm not sure where you've been. The only times, outside of one or two posters on here that I've seen anyone use the Bible has been in defense of people like you starting Christian bashing threads and asking insulting, disrespecting questions in the guise of wanting to be more informed. I'd have more respect for you if you dropped the bullshit about how you're just trying to learn more. Eventually you do get around to the real you when you can't help yourself and start to ask your questions with obvious hatred, bias and slant in them, but you always start out like little Mr. Innocent just looking for the truth.

Who the hell are you kidding? You're never going to 'change your mind'. Your agenda is obvious for anyone who really wants to see it.

 

[Newby]

kalam, nothing in your religion is true, just read the koran, it's all crap, written by a dude who was just trying to catch up to the bible (which is also a load of crap). Islam was invented to keep women down and treated like chattel.

During the time of ignorance, Arabian women, with few exceptions, were chattel. Women, like slaves, were sold by their families into marriage. Marriages could only be terminated if the husband willed it. Wives were, like all property, inheritable. Female (and in some cases, male) children were typically seen as a financial liability and a curse, so infanticide was commonplace. Islam ended these practices by recognizing the rights of women as human beings and the necessity of treating them as such. Property rights were recognized, women could decide themselves to divorce, infanticide was banned, etc.

O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to take women as heritage against (their) will. Nor should you straiten them by taking part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency. And treat them kindly. Then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it. - 4:19

And covet not that by which Allah has made some of you excel others. For men is the benefit of what they earn. And for women is the benefit of what they earn. And ask Allah of His grace. Surely Allah is ever Knower of all things. - 4:32

Say: Come! I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you: Associate naught with Him and do good to parents and slay not your children for (fear of) poverty - We will provide for you and for them - and draw not nigh to indecencies, open or secret, and kill not the soul which Allah has made sacred except in the course of justice. This He enjoins upon you that you may understand. - 6:51​

If it was really a religion of peace, you wouldn't have jihad,

Why? Are we to willingly accept aggression and persecution and not attempt to repel our assailants as any rational people would?


Which part of the Qur'an mentions 72 virgins? The Qur'an describes every believer returning to a sexually and morally pure state upon death.

and you wouldn't be forcing your women to wear a black sheet over themselves in a desert country.

You are incorrectly assuming that the tenets of Islam are congruous with those of the Wahhabi heresy. The Qur'an simply tells believing men and women to be modest in gaze and in dress.

That anyone would even marry off their 9 year old is just plain as sick as it gets.

In this society, perhaps, but why is a betrothal at age 9 (at youngest) in 7th century Arabia reprehensible? In Islam, women can file for divorce and consummation of the marriage does not occur until both husband and wife have reached majority.

So, Kalam, according to what you've presented here in numerous threads in answer to numerous questions put to you, then a good percentage of people practicing Islam today are not practicing it correctly according to the Quran? Including entire countries such as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, etc...?

 

[TofuDog]

kalam, you're smoking some good hash if you think that none of these perverts who marry a 9 year old aren't having sex with them.
jihad is a war for god. The only kind of war you guys wage. Everything is an attack on your god. You want to re-establish a caliphate... for god. You want to repel the infidels... All your war are about religion. Iraq vs Iran, religious war...
As for the sheets, if a woman takes it off, she'll be burned with acid or killed, or raped, then killed... Nice code of conduct you guys live by.

 

[AllieBaba]

"Beard patrols".

I think that says it all.

And also, any man has the right and the obligation to "punish" any woman for not following the Islamic code of conduct. Strange men can attack, rape, kill women in the streets of Islamic controlled government for what they see as violations of the Koran in conduct, dress, or behavior.

They're just great people all around. Really. I have so much respect for them.

 

[Gurdari]

Atheism is not the bastion of logic and reason nor is it the bastard child of science. The minute science claims to have an answer to 'is there at least one God', then you can start calling dibs on the religion brought to you by science.

Every religion is unprovable without godly intervention and that includes atheism.

Remember that before you get into a pointless 'my spaghetti monster is better than your God' thread.

rare is the atheist who actually claims there is no God(s). That is an unscientific view-point and unprovable. Most of us apply the same analysis to all claims, religious or otherwise in a consistent logical manner. Thus, I think there could be God(s), there could be a lot of things ...but I will only believe they exist when I am convinced, not just because someone told me to believe it, or because they have a book (even if it's a really, really old one).

Isn't that agnosticism then?

COuld be, those terms get used in many ways... since anyone actually claiming to KNOW that there is 'No God' would have to support that claim with evidence (of which there can never be any) so they are certainly not a member of the science-based thought process... just some random fool making unsubstantiated cliams.

Now, refusing to be CONVINCED of God's existence (for good reason) is just being logical and analytical in the same we ALL are about everything else in our lives. I think the 'believers' among us just turn that off when it comes to religion... unless they all belive fantastical claims in other areas... which they rarely do.

 

[Gurdari]

kalam, nothing in your religion is true, just read the koran, it's all crap, written by a dude who was just trying to catch up to the bible (which is also a load of crap). Islam was invented to keep women down and treated like chattel. If it was really a religion of peace, you wouldn't have jihad, 72 ugly virgins... and you wouldn't be forcing your women to wear a black sheet over themselves in a desert country. That anyone would even marry off their 9 year old is just plain as sick as it gets.

Actually... the Koran is far better in its treatment of women than the Bible or Torah... actually (sounds odd in this day and age) it was the most progressive religious text (of the 'big three'). Compared to now, obviously it is archaic and sexist (IMO) but if one actually lived according to the Bible it would be FAR worse. It is just that there are so few die-hard Christians, while there seem to be many die-hard Muslims.


All religions (except maybe Taoism) are pretty violent, read the bible it's pretty colonialist and and sexist and violent and advocates slavery, says rape is ok... I mean come on, how many Christians treat their slaves according to the good book's rules? How many actually treat their children and wives according to its rules?

None that I've ever met.

Too bad they don't follow the Quran then when it comes to the treatment of their women, huh?

Much of what we see is cultural, rather than strictly religious... but for anyone to follow a text that is that old and not treat women as equals is shitty IMO. I just mentioned that as texts go... the Koran is more progressive and egalitarian than the other "two".

 

[Newby]

Actually... the Koran is far better in its treatment of women than the Bible or Torah... actually (sounds odd in this day and age) it was the most progressive religious text (of the 'big three'). Compared to now, obviously it is archaic and sexist (IMO) but if one actually lived according to the Bible it would be FAR worse. It is just that there are so few die-hard Christians, while there seem to be many die-hard Muslims.


All religions (except maybe Taoism) are pretty violent, read the bible it's pretty colonialist and and sexist and violent and advocates slavery, says rape is ok... I mean come on, how many Christians treat their slaves according to the good book's rules? How many actually treat their children and wives according to its rules?

None that I've ever met.

Too bad they don't follow the Quran then when it comes to the treatment of their women, huh?

Much of what we see is cultural, rather than strictly religious... but for anyone to follow a text that is that old and not treat women as equals is shitty IMO. I just mentioned that as texts go... the Koran is more progressive and egalitarian than the other "two".

Yeah, and it really shows when you compare women in the middle east to women in the west.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Frankly, you're full of shit. I've never once seen you bash Islam or extremist terrorists,

Whose full of shit? You've never once seen me bash Islam or extremist terrorists? Well, here's a post where I condemmn Islamic extremism, and below it is your reply to that post. So, unless you just respond without reading my post, you're full of shit:

Do you not read my posts? I said that I thought what the terrorists have done is wrong. Their actions are wrong. Their methods, I said, are wrong. Their perspective...well, that's different. Who am I to judge that the way these extremists see things is wrong? God? Whose God, yours or theirs?

Like I said, already once before, I don't condone, excuse, or justify the actions of those people who committed acts of terrorism, or terrorism in general. I even wrote that those convicted of committing or plotting to commit acts of terrorism should be locked away for the rest of their lives.

You certainly are full of yourself, aren't you? Every post you make is a book, wonder why that is?

The second picture that you posted is not HOW the US tortures people, you lied. I don't need three paragraphs to explain that. It's pretty cut and dried, actually.

I understand you much better than you know, CMM. I know that you think 'the' enemy is the conservative Christian and that that group is the beginning and ending of all evils in the world. I know how you feel about your country, you don't need to spell it out. I know how you excuse everyone else's behavior because they're just 'poor' people taken advantage of by the evil imperialist conservative Christian nation, the United States. There is no evil in the world, it's just people lashing back at being kept down and abused by the imperialist U.S. Well, wait, you do believe in evil, but only if it's the conservative Christian, every other group gets a pass from you. And especially American conservative Christians, I'm sure they're much more evil than say European conservative Christians. You're an open book, and you've been indoctrinated well.

You are one of the most sanctimonious judgmental persons I've ever had the displeasure to come across. You're too smart for God, you've got it all figured out in that smug little brain of yours and anyone that feels or believes differently than you do are just a bunch of 'complacent and oblivious ignoramuses'. Yet you're too damn stupid to look in the mirror and recognize that what you described is yourself.

This is from the post you have just responded to where I am addressing both Islam and Christianity:

Because to non-believers both religions are equally without merit and their adherents equally good and bad.

I have however seen you bash Christians and your own country and military for their actions on numerous occasions. You're an apologist because of your hatred for Christians, it's really quite plain to see.

Yep, its called freedom of speech. And I never said I was ashamed of the US, just ashamed of some of the things its done. And the same with the military, and I'm a former Marine. I'm proud of my service to my country and the Corps. But that doesn't mean I'm proud of everything my country and the Marine Corps has done. Just read about the massacre at al-Haditha. 24 innocent villagers gunned down by Marines. I'm not proud of that.

For whom have I ever acted as an apologist? That is a baseless accusation. Can you back it up?

I don't hate Christians. Isn't that what you conservatives are always accusing the left of doing, accusing conservatives of hatred simply because they disagree with something the left supports? I really like my girlfriend's Unitarian parents and her Christian grandmother who cries when I talk to her on the phone because she knows that I'm a good man to her grand-daughter and she finds it very touching. I really like Tigerbob, Brokenangel, Immanuel, Editec, and many other Christians on this forum. Most of the people I work with are Christians and I like them. What I don't like is what some Christians do. I hate when Christians think there is something wrong with me because I don't believe in God. I hate when Christians discriminate against or judge my uncle because he's gay. I hate when Christians accuse Islam, a religion that is essentially no different from Christianity, or Muslims, who are essentially no different from Christians, of being violent pedophiles.

Hate the sin, not the sinner, right?

I've seen Kalam use the Quran on many occasions to defend his position, so I'm not sure where you've been.

Yes, but it isn't the end-all be-all foundation for his religious convictions. He applies analytical and critical thinking, reason and logic, and rational thought to his interpretation of the Quran as well as his life experiences. That was my point. Unlike fundamentalists who interpret their holy texts literally and can't see beyond their blind faith.

The only times, outside of one or two posters on here that I've seen anyone use the Bible has been in defense of people like you starting Christian bashing threads and asking insulting, disrespecting questions in the guise of wanting to be more informed.

Well, that's what you've seen. I've seen it a lot. Just read some of Allie Baba's, Againsheila's, Yukon's, Manu's, and many others' posts.

Some of my threads are meant to challenge religious beliefs, some are for my own curiousity, and some are both. What's wrong with that? Why don't you challenge my religious philosophies? Nowhere did I get hateful about it.

I'd have more respect for you if you dropped the bullshit about how you're just trying to learn more.

It isn't bullshit. You just want it to be. And you believe what you want.

Eventually you do get around to the real you when you can't help yourself and start to ask your questions with obvious hatred, bias and slant in them, but you always start out like little Mr. Innocent just looking for the truth.

Do you mean this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/71977-for-those-who-do-believe-in-god-6.html

Those who answered my questions without hostility seem to be saying that one doesn't choose to believe, that it either just sort of happens or you are almost chosen to believe.

Those with the least hostility in their answers also seemed to accept that perhaps they aren't the only right religion and everyone else will burn in Hell forever. They believed because they did, they didn't care if I did, they answered my questions because they wanted to talk about their beliefs, and although I started this thread to challenge people's faith by posing questions based in logic, I've actually learned to better understand why people have faith even if I don't have it myself or understand faith itself.

Those who did answer defensively or with hostility, perhaps you should consider how that represents your faith and how those who don't have faith perceive adherents of your faith and your faith itself.

or this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/71977-for-those-who-do-believe-in-god-9.html

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

or this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/71977-for-those-who-do-believe-in-god-13.html

After starting this thread, and seeing what faith can mean to someone, I think I really do want more than just a vast, cold, dark, inhospitable Universe in which to briefly exist and then not-exist for a really long time. I've been inspired by what you, Broken Angel, and Tiger Bob have all written and I have been thinking about it a lot the last couple of days.

Now don't think I'm going to jump right into religion, because that is not only very distasteful to me but I can't compromise my principals and experiences enough to believe in the anthropomorphic monotheist gods of most of our US citizen peers, but I think I would like to undertake to understand faith more. I think its very hard for me to understand because, like having a low IQ, I have a low EQ, emotional quotient. And I think faith is an emotional kinda thing.

My girlfriend says I think too much. I think I think too much. I think I want to start feeling and stop thinking, if just for a moment.

I almost feel as though my whole life has been a battle between logic, reason, rational thinking and passionate, unreasonable, irrational feeling.

Maybe this is the next step? I had no idea that I would end up typing this after starting this thread. I thought I would be typing: Cecilie! You're a wacko! Allie, you're insane! Sheila, open your eyes!

Ha! This life...

Man did I ever get nasty. Can you put forth evidence that I've gotten hateful? And of course, there is a bias and slant, as I am a human being and do not observe reality objectively.

Now you wouldn't be a hypocrite... Just look at the first line of the last post you made in response to me. I quoted it in this response. And go back and read some of your other responses to my posts, you know, the ones where you call me a liar, or judgemental, or sanctimonious.

I've never accused you of dishonesty, until this post. And I still left room for your dishonesty to really just be ignorance. I have accused you of ignorance, complacency, and dogma, yes, but nothing as intentional as lying.

Who the hell are you kidding? You're never going to 'change your mind'. Your agenda is obvious for anyone who really wants to see it.

I just posted quotes and links where you can read where I changed my mind. Try again.

Is there anything wrong with having an agenda, Newby? Don't you have one? Doesn't everyone?

 

[Anguille]

Yeah, and it really shows when you compare women in the middle east to women in the west.

Are you confusing geographics and ethnicity with religion?

 

[Newby]

Yeah, and it really shows when you compare women in the middle east to women in the west.

Are you confusing geographics and ethnicity with religion?

I don't think so, it's called a generalization. Do you agree with him that the Jewish and Christian faiths are worse when compared to the Islamic faith in their treatment of women? That is, after all, what we were talking about. I'm talking about the reality of the faith itself, so perhaps I should clarify that.

 

[Newby]

Frankly, you're full of shit. I've never once seen you bash Islam or extremist terrorists,

Whose full of shit? You've never once seen me bash Islam or extremist terrorists? Well, here's a post where I condemmn Islamic extremism, and below it is your reply to that post. So, unless you just respond without reading my post, you're full of shit:

You certainly are full of yourself, aren't you? Every post you make is a book, wonder why that is?

The second picture that you posted is not HOW the US tortures people, you lied. I don't need three paragraphs to explain that. It's pretty cut and dried, actually.

I understand you much better than you know, CMM. I know that you think 'the' enemy is the conservative Christian and that that group is the beginning and ending of all evils in the world. I know how you feel about your country, you don't need to spell it out. I know how you excuse everyone else's behavior because they're just 'poor' people taken advantage of by the evil imperialist conservative Christian nation, the United States. There is no evil in the world, it's just people lashing back at being kept down and abused by the imperialist U.S. Well, wait, you do believe in evil, but only if it's the conservative Christian, every other group gets a pass from you. And especially American conservative Christians, I'm sure they're much more evil than say European conservative Christians. You're an open book, and you've been indoctrinated well.

You are one of the most sanctimonious judgmental persons I've ever had the displeasure to come across. You're too smart for God, you've got it all figured out in that smug little brain of yours and anyone that feels or believes differently than you do are just a bunch of 'complacent and oblivious ignoramuses'. Yet you're too damn stupid to look in the mirror and recognize that what you described is yourself.

This is from the post you have just responded to where I am addressing both Islam and Christianity:





Yep, its called freedom of speech. And I never said I was ashamed of the US, just ashamed of some of the things its done. And the same with the military, and I'm a former Marine. I'm proud of my service to my country and the Corps. But that doesn't mean I'm proud of everything my country and the Marine Corps has done. Just read about the massacre at al-Haditha. 24 innocent villagers gunned down by Marines. I'm not proud of that.

For whom have I ever acted as an apologist? That is a baseless accusation. Can you back it up?

I don't hate Christians. Isn't that what you conservatives are always accusing the left of doing, accusing conservatives of hatred simply because they disagree with something the left supports? I really like my girlfriend's Unitarian parents and her Christian grandmother who cries when I talk to her on the phone because she knows that I'm a good man to her grand-daughter and she finds it very touching. I really like Tigerbob, Brokenangel, Immanuel, Editec, and many other Christians on this forum. Most of the people I work with are Christians and I like them. What I don't like is what some Christians do. I hate when Christians think there is something wrong with me because I don't believe in God. I hate when Christians discriminate against or judge my uncle because he's gay. I hate when Christians accuse Islam, a religion that is essentially no different from Christianity, or Muslims, who are essentially no different from Christians, of being violent pedophiles.

Hate the sin, not the sinner, right?



Yes, but it isn't the end-all be-all foundation for his religious convictions. He applies analytical and critical thinking, reason and logic, and rational thought to his interpretation of the Quran as well as his life experiences. That was my point. Unlike fundamentalists who interpret their holy texts literally and can't see beyond their blind faith.



Well, that's what you've seen. I've seen it a lot. Just read some of Allie Baba's, Againsheila's, Yukon's, Manu's, and many others' posts.

Some of my threads are meant to challenge religious beliefs, some are for my own curiousity, and some are both. What's wrong with that? Why don't you challenge my religious philosophies? Nowhere did I get hateful about it.



It isn't bullshit. You just want it to be. And you believe what you want.



Do you mean this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/71977-for-those-who-do-believe-in-god-6.html



or this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/71977-for-those-who-do-believe-in-god-9.html




or this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/71977-for-those-who-do-believe-in-god-13.html

After starting this thread, and seeing what faith can mean to someone, I think I really do want more than just a vast, cold, dark, inhospitable Universe in which to briefly exist and then not-exist for a really long time. I've been inspired by what you, Broken Angel, and Tiger Bob have all written and I have been thinking about it a lot the last couple of days.

Now don't think I'm going to jump right into religion, because that is not only very distasteful to me but I can't compromise my principals and experiences enough to believe in the anthropomorphic monotheist gods of most of our US citizen peers, but I think I would like to undertake to understand faith more. I think its very hard for me to understand because, like having a low IQ, I have a low EQ, emotional quotient. And I think faith is an emotional kinda thing.

My girlfriend says I think too much. I think I think too much. I think I want to start feeling and stop thinking, if just for a moment.

I almost feel as though my whole life has been a battle between logic, reason, rational thinking and passionate, unreasonable, irrational feeling.

Maybe this is the next step? I had no idea that I would end up typing this after starting this thread. I thought I would be typing: Cecilie! You're a wacko! Allie, you're insane! Sheila, open your eyes!

Ha! This life...

Man did I ever get nasty. Can you put forth evidence that I've gotten hateful? And of course, there is a bias and slant, as I am a human being and do not observe reality objectively.

Now you wouldn't be a hypocrite... Just look at the first line of the last post you made in response to me. I quoted it in this response. And go back and read some of your other responses to my posts, you know, the ones where you call me a liar, or judgemental, or sanctimonious.

I've never accused you of dishonesty, until this post. And I still left room for your dishonesty to really just be ignorance. I have accused you of ignorance, complacency, and dogma, yes, but nothing as intentional as lying.

Who the hell are you kidding? You're never going to 'change your mind'. Your agenda is obvious for anyone who really wants to see it.

I just posted quotes and links where you can read where I changed my mind. Try again.

Is there anything wrong with having an agenda, Newby? Don't you have one? Doesn't everyone?

Do you expect me to read all of that? You're worse than most women I know.

Okay, CMM, you're just a sweet, good natured guy just struggling with his inner personal beliefs and making a sincere and honest effort to discover what's waiting out there in the big, wide world. Whatever you say.

 

[Anguille]

Yeah, and it really shows when you compare women in the middle east to women in the west.

Are you confusing geographics and ethnicity with religion?

I don't think so, it's called a generalization. Do you agree with him that the Jewish and Christian faiths are worse when compared to the Islamic faith in their treatment of women? That is, after all, what we were talking about. I'm talking about the reality of the faith itself, so perhaps I should clarify that.

Fundamentalists of all three faiths have rules which oppress women. No one faith is worse than any other because they are all three more alike than they are different.