Attention, gun control supporters:

[bigrebnc1775]

A WORRIED hair stylist who runs a salon near to the scene of a New Year’s Day shooting in Sheffield said he is determined to sell up and move his business out of the area - as customers are being put off by the neighbourhood’s violent reputation.
James Worrall, who owns Love Your Hair, on London Road, said he has had to reduce prices in a bid to attract more trade and is struggling to keep staff. He also said the shooting - in which a 45-year-old man from Manor was fired at close to Hill Street - was ‘the last straw’.“Customers don’t want to come to the area,” he said.“It just seems like it’s getting more dangerous and a little bit menacing.“It definitely does feel like the last straw. People are frightened and upset.”James, aged 34, said he opened Love Your Hair on London Road in 2007, having previously run a salon in Beauchief.


Two men charged over Sheffield shooting - Local - The Star[/url]
TWO men are due at court today over the shooting of a Sheffield man on a city housing estate - while a third man arrested on suspicion of attempted murder is being quizzed by police.

OH and one more

Murder and Mayhem in Sheffield: Amazon.co.uk: Geoffrey Howse: Books

Clutching at straws with the last one, aren't you?? A book about the murders in the city since 1847? Including the gang wars of the 1920s when literally a couple of dozen people died?.

Yes, there have been shootings in Sheffield. I never said that my city (with a population of half a million people) had no crime - just that the ownership of guns is really, really low compared to the US, and that I have never seen anyone carry a gun outside of Airport Police.

And yet the violent crime rate in the UK is really, really low compared to the US.

The point at issue here is "Does increasing gun ownership reduce crime?" - and the answer is, blatently, "No". - You have lots of guns in the USA, and one of the worst crime rates in the world. Having more guns hasn't made anyone any safer.

The threat of a homeowner owning a gun doesn't stop a desperate criminal from breaking into their home. It just makes it more likely that the criminal will ALSO carry a gun, for their own self-protection. And when the two meet and "self-protect" the hell out of each other until one of them lies dying and bleeding on the floor, what has that proved?

I am pointing out that the statistics are clear. The amount of violent crime does not reduce by increasing gun ownership (if it did, the USA would have the lowest crime stats in the world, and it doesn't, quite the reverse) - equally, violent crime does not increase if you reduce gun ownership (if that were true, then the UK would have the world's worst crime stats, and it doesn't - violent crime is falling and continuing to fall in the UK)

So, if you want to reduce criminal behaviour, you need to look at systems that work, not at who has a gun.

Really you say I'm the one clutching for straws? Let's address one of those links I posted from your news from the city you live in

Hairdresser
A WORRIED hair stylist who runs a salon near to the scene of a New Year’s Day shooting in Sheffield said he is determined to sell up and move his business out of the area - as customers are being put off by the neighbourhood’s violent reputation.
James Worrall, who owns Love Your Hair, on London Road, said he has had to reduce prices in a bid to attract more trade and is struggling to keep staff. He also said the shooting - in which a 45-year-old man from Manor was fired at close to Hill Street - was ‘the last straw’.“Customers don’t want to come to the area,” he said.“It just seems like it’s getting more dangerous and a little bit menacing.“It definitely does feel like the last straw. People are frightened and upset.”James, aged 34, said he opened Love Your Hair on London Road in 2007, having previously run a salon in Beauchief.

Notice the bold? You're either the most ill informed person about what happens around him or a liar.

 

[Bryllig]

Hi. Just thought I would put your misunderstandings to rest. England's violent crime rates are NOT off the chart (where did you get that impression???) - in fact they are going down.

Official quote from the UK Government "The number of homicides recorded by the police in 2011/12 fell by 14 percent compared with 2010/11, homicide is at its lowest level since 1983. The reducing trend in murder and homicide is reflected in a reduction in attempted murder (down 8%) and serious violence (down 8%) across England and Wales."

Roughly 10% of UK murder involves a firearm.

K

How can there be any murders involving firearms in England if they essentially banned them??

The murderers either a) had a legally owned weapon, or b) the gun was illegal.

Because guns are illegal, and the penalty for having a gun is very severe, most criminals in the UK don't carry a gun when carrying out their illegal activities, because they know that their sentence if they are caught will be far, far higher. And they don't need one for self-defence because the police and ordinary members of the public don't have guns either.

 

[Bryllig]

OH and one more

Murder and Mayhem in Sheffield: Amazon.co.uk: Geoffrey Howse: Books

Clutching at straws with the last one, aren't you?? A book about the murders in the city since 1847? Including the gang wars of the 1920s when literally a couple of dozen people died?.

Yes, there have been shootings in Sheffield. I never said that my city (with a population of half a million people) had no crime - just that the ownership of guns is really, really low compared to the US, and that I have never seen anyone carry a gun outside of Airport Police.

And yet the violent crime rate in the UK is really, really low compared to the US.

The point at issue here is "Does increasing gun ownership reduce crime?" - and the answer is, blatently, "No". - You have lots of guns in the USA, and one of the worst crime rates in the world. Having more guns hasn't made anyone any safer.

The threat of a homeowner owning a gun doesn't stop a desperate criminal from breaking into their home. It just makes it more likely that the criminal will ALSO carry a gun, for their own self-protection. And when the two meet and "self-protect" the hell out of each other until one of them lies dying and bleeding on the floor, what has that proved?

I am pointing out that the statistics are clear. The amount of violent crime does not reduce by increasing gun ownership (if it did, the USA would have the lowest crime stats in the world, and it doesn't, quite the reverse) - equally, violent crime does not increase if you reduce gun ownership (if that were true, then the UK would have the world's worst crime stats, and it doesn't - violent crime is falling and continuing to fall in the UK)

So, if you want to reduce criminal behaviour, you need to look at systems that work, not at who has a gun.

Really you say I'm the one clutching for straws? Let's address one of those links I posted from your news from the city you live in

A WORRIED hair stylist who runs a salon near to the scene of a New Year’s Day shooting in Sheffield said he is determined to sell up and move his business out of the area - as customers are being put off by the neighbourhood’s violent reputation.
James Worrall, who owns Love Your Hair, on London Road, said he has had to reduce prices in a bid to attract more trade and is struggling to keep staff. He also said the shooting - in which a 45-year-old man from Manor was fired at close to Hill Street - was ‘the last straw’.“Customers don’t want to come to the area,” he said.“It just seems like it’s getting more dangerous and a little bit menacing.“It definitely does feel like the last straw. People are frightened and upset.”James, aged 34, said he opened Love Your Hair on London Road in 2007, having previously run a salon in Beauchief.

Notice the bold? You're either the most ill informed person about what happens around him or a liar.

Hi. Thanks for the bold. That made it much clearer.

The problem is that when the newspaper that the area had "a violent reputation" you assumed that this meant guns. To you, violence and guns go hand in hand.

But you got it wrong. The Manor is a rough area of Sheffield. It is a violent area of the city - by which I mean that i would be careful walking around by myself late at night, because I might get mugged. And shop keepers are scared because they might get robbed. But this doen't involve guns!!!!!

People in the UK get mugged without guns being involved.
Shops get robbed without guns being involved.

Violent behaviour, and rough city streets do not have to have guns all over the place, as you have (incorrectly) assumed.

 

[The Rabbi]

Hi. Just thought I would put your misunderstandings to rest. England's violent crime rates are NOT off the chart (where did you get that impression???) - in fact they are going down.

Official quote from the UK Government "The number of homicides recorded by the police in 2011/12 fell by 14 percent compared with 2010/11, homicide is at its lowest level since 1983. The reducing trend in murder and homicide is reflected in a reduction in attempted murder (down 8%) and serious violence (down 8%) across England and Wales."

Roughly 10% of UK murder involves a firearm.

K

How can there be any murders involving firearms in England if they essentially banned them??

The murderers either a) had a legally owned weapon, or b) the gun was illegal.

Because guns are illegal, and the penalty for having a gun is very severe, most criminals in the UK don't carry a gun when carrying out their illegal activities, because they know that their sentence if they are caught will be far, far higher. And they don't need one for self-defence because the police and ordinary members of the public don't have guns either.

10% of murderers disagree with you.
Again, 10% is a pretty big number given no one is suppsoed to have a gun. How do you explain that?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Clutching at straws with the last one, aren't you?? A book about the murders in the city since 1847? Including the gang wars of the 1920s when literally a couple of dozen people died?.

Yes, there have been shootings in Sheffield. I never said that my city (with a population of half a million people) had no crime - just that the ownership of guns is really, really low compared to the US, and that I have never seen anyone carry a gun outside of Airport Police.

And yet the violent crime rate in the UK is really, really low compared to the US.

The point at issue here is "Does increasing gun ownership reduce crime?" - and the answer is, blatently, "No". - You have lots of guns in the USA, and one of the worst crime rates in the world. Having more guns hasn't made anyone any safer.

The threat of a homeowner owning a gun doesn't stop a desperate criminal from breaking into their home. It just makes it more likely that the criminal will ALSO carry a gun, for their own self-protection. And when the two meet and "self-protect" the hell out of each other until one of them lies dying and bleeding on the floor, what has that proved?

I am pointing out that the statistics are clear. The amount of violent crime does not reduce by increasing gun ownership (if it did, the USA would have the lowest crime stats in the world, and it doesn't, quite the reverse) - equally, violent crime does not increase if you reduce gun ownership (if that were true, then the UK would have the world's worst crime stats, and it doesn't - violent crime is falling and continuing to fall in the UK)

So, if you want to reduce criminal behaviour, you need to look at systems that work, not at who has a gun.

Really you say I'm the one clutching for straws? Let's address one of those links I posted from your news from the city you live in

A WORRIED hair stylist who runs a salon near to the scene of a New Year’s Day shooting in Sheffield said he is determined to sell up and move his business out of the area - as customers are being put off by the neighbourhood’s violent reputation.
James Worrall, who owns Love Your Hair, on London Road, said he has had to reduce prices in a bid to attract more trade and is struggling to keep staff. He also said the shooting - in which a 45-year-old man from Manor was fired at close to Hill Street - was ‘the last straw’.“Customers don’t want to come to the area,” he said.“It just seems like it’s getting more dangerous and a little bit menacing.“It definitely does feel like the last straw. People are frightened and upset.”James, aged 34, said he opened Love Your Hair on London Road in 2007, having previously run a salon in Beauchief.

Notice the bold? You're either the most ill informed person about what happens around him or a liar.

Hi. Thanks for the bold. That made it much clearer.

The problem is that when the newspaper that the area had "a violent reputation" you assumed that this meant guns. To you, violence and guns go hand in hand.

But you got it wrong. The Manor is a rough area of Sheffield. It is a violent area of the city - by which I mean that i would be careful walking around by myself late at night, because I might get mugged. And shop keepers are scared because they might get robbed. But this doen't involve guns!!!!!

People in the UK get mugged without guns being involved.
Shops get robbed without guns being involved.

Violent behaviour, and rough city streets do not have to have guns all over the place, as you have (incorrectly) assumed.

WOW it appears violent behavior is OK with you as long as guns aren't involved?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

How can there be any murders involving firearms in England if they essentially banned them??

The murderers either a) had a legally owned weapon, or b) the gun was illegal.

Because guns are illegal, and the penalty for having a gun is very severe, most criminals in the UK don't carry a gun when carrying out their illegal activities, because they know that their sentence if they are caught will be far, far higher. And they don't need one for self-defence because the police and ordinary members of the public don't have guns either.

10% of murderers disagree with you.
Again, 10% is a pretty big number given no one is suppsoed to have a gun. How do you explain that?

as long as guns aren't used he really doesn't care about how someone is murdered.

 

[daveman]

Gosh; such a poor turnout by the RRMAS (Righty Retard Mutual Admiration Society.)

The Rabbi, Big Reb, and Dave is all who've chimed-in? Jesus; I need to try harder next time.

Run along, troll.

You think up that brilliant retort all by yourself, or did your care provider help out?

What makes you think you deserve anything else?

 

[daveman]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

Hi. It seems to me that you have LOTS of guns in the US. I mean, staggeringly large numbers of guns. Here in the UK we have none (well, almost none - farmers have shotguns, and some police are armed), but I have never seen a gun in the UK (except in the hands of the police, but only at airpots) , nor do I know anyone that has fired one.

So it must be heaven for criminals in the UK - we must all be terrified of walking the streets at night?

Well, no. It's fine over here. In fact we have a far lower percentage of crime and far, far fewer people in prison than you do in the US.

So, in answer to your question "How are you going to get criminals to obey the law" the answer is most definitely NOT not by allowing everyone to have guns. You have tried that in the US and it has spectacularly failed.

So what does work? Well, unsurprisingly, the countries in the world with the lowest crime are the ones that invest in education and have efficient policing, who deal with people firmly but fairly.

That's your answer.

Thanks for your input. It's wrong, by the way.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.
Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes in the UK has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.15
Fact: Britan has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe, more so than the United States or even South Africa. They also have the second highest over all crime rate in the European Union. In 2008, Britan had a violent crime rate nearly five times higher than the United states (446 vs. 2034 pre 100,000 population).16
Fact: 67% of British residents surveyed believed that “As a result of gun and knife crime [rising], the area I live in is not as safe as it was five years ago.”17
Fact: U.K. street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.18
Fact: This trend continues in the U.K in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.
Fact: In 1919, before they had any gun control, the U.K. had a homicide rate that was 8% of the U.S. rate. By 1986, and after enacting significant gun control, the rate was 9% – practically unchanged.19
Fact: “... [There is] nothing in the statistics for England and Wales to suggest that either the stricter controls on handguns prior to 1997 or the ban imposed since have controlled access to such firearms by criminals.”20
Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is fundamentally flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there.21 To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.22
Fact: An ongoing parliamentary inquiry in Britain into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation – double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago – and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of 25 possesses or has access to a firearm. 23
Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.24
Fact: Handguns were used in 3,685 British offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%.25 It is interesting to note:
• Of the 20 areas with the lowest number of legal firearms, 10 had an above average level of “gun crime.”
• Of the 20 areas with the highest levels of legal guns, only 2 had armed crime levels above the average.
Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership.26
Fact: Over the last century, the British crime rate was largely unchanged. In the late nineteenth century, the per capita homicide rate in Britain was between 1.0 and 1.5 per 100,000.27 In the late twentieth century, after a near ban on gun ownership, the homicide rate is around 1.4.28 This implies that the homicide rate did not vary with either the level of gun control or gun availability.
Fact: The U.K. has strict gun control and a rising homicide rate of 1.4 per 100,000. Switzerland has the highest per capita firearm ownership rate on the planet (all males age 20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home) and has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. To date, there has never been a schoolyard massacre in Switzerland.29
Fact: “The scale of gun crime in the capital [London] has forced senior officers to set up a specialist unit to deal with ... shootings.”30
​

 

[thanatos144]

So how long after guns are confiscated and banned do we start putting Jews and blacks in camps killing them???????? Tell me progressives whats the timeline to cull the heard?

 

[daveman]

Clutching at straws with the last one, aren't you?? A book about the murders in the city since 1847? Including the gang wars of the 1920s when literally a couple of dozen people died?.

Yes, there have been shootings in Sheffield. I never said that my city (with a population of half a million people) had no crime - just that the ownership of guns is really, really low compared to the US, and that I have never seen anyone carry a gun outside of Airport Police.

And yet the violent crime rate in the UK is really, really low compared to the US.

The point at issue here is "Does increasing gun ownership reduce crime?" - and the answer is, blatently, "No". - You have lots of guns in the USA, and one of the worst crime rates in the world. Having more guns hasn't made anyone any safer.

The threat of a homeowner owning a gun doesn't stop a desperate criminal from breaking into their home. It just makes it more likely that the criminal will ALSO carry a gun, for their own self-protection. And when the two meet and "self-protect" the hell out of each other until one of them lies dying and bleeding on the floor, what has that proved?

I am pointing out that the statistics are clear. The amount of violent crime does not reduce by increasing gun ownership (if it did, the USA would have the lowest crime stats in the world, and it doesn't, quite the reverse) - equally, violent crime does not increase if you reduce gun ownership (if that were true, then the UK would have the world's worst crime stats, and it doesn't - violent crime is falling and continuing to fall in the UK)

So, if you want to reduce criminal behaviour, you need to look at systems that work, not at who has a gun.

Really you say I'm the one clutching for straws? Let's address one of those links I posted from your news from the city you live in

A WORRIED hair stylist who runs a salon near to the scene of a New Year’s Day shooting in Sheffield said he is determined to sell up and move his business out of the area - as customers are being put off by the neighbourhood’s violent reputation.
James Worrall, who owns Love Your Hair, on London Road, said he has had to reduce prices in a bid to attract more trade and is struggling to keep staff. He also said the shooting - in which a 45-year-old man from Manor was fired at close to Hill Street - was ‘the last straw’.“Customers don’t want to come to the area,” he said.“It just seems like it’s getting more dangerous and a little bit menacing.“It definitely does feel like the last straw. People are frightened and upset.”James, aged 34, said he opened Love Your Hair on London Road in 2007, having previously run a salon in Beauchief.

Notice the bold? You're either the most ill informed person about what happens around him or a liar.

Hi. Thanks for the bold. That made it much clearer.

The problem is that when the newspaper that the area had "a violent reputation" you assumed that this meant guns. To you, violence and guns go hand in hand.

But you got it wrong. The Manor is a rough area of Sheffield. It is a violent area of the city - by which I mean that i would be careful walking around by myself late at night, because I might get mugged. And shop keepers are scared because they might get robbed. But this doen't involve guns!!!!!

People in the UK get mugged without guns being involved.
Shops get robbed without guns being involved.

Violent behaviour, and rough city streets do not have to have guns all over the place, as you have (incorrectly) assumed.

Do you believe that someone killed by a gun is somehow MORE dead than someone beaten to death with a tire iron?

Violent crime is violent crime. It doesn't matter what weapons, if any, are used. Stop trying to move the goalposts.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

[ame=http://youtu.be/84ptFVq22PY]Gun Control explained - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Bryllig]

The murderers either a) had a legally owned weapon, or b) the gun was illegal.

Because guns are illegal, and the penalty for having a gun is very severe, most criminals in the UK don't carry a gun when carrying out their illegal activities, because they know that their sentence if they are caught will be far, far higher. And they don't need one for self-defence because the police and ordinary members of the public don't have guns either.

10% of murderers disagree with you.
Again, 10% is a pretty big number given no one is suppsoed to have a gun. How do you explain that?

as long as guns aren't used he really doesn't care about how someone is murdered.

Oh, I care, believe me. But if someone tries to murder me with a candlestick or a rope or a piece of lead piping, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the encounter!

The good news for people in the UK is that over 90% potential murderers don't carry guns.

Which is why we have less murder than in the US.

Can you answer a question? Why, in your opinion, is the murder rate in the USA so high?

 

[GuyPinestra]

10% of murderers disagree with you.
Again, 10% is a pretty big number given no one is suppsoed to have a gun. How do you explain that?

as long as guns aren't used he really doesn't care about how someone is murdered.

Oh, I care, believe me. But if someone tries to murder me with a candlestick or a rope or a piece of lead piping, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the encounter!

The good news for people in the UK is that over 90% potential murderers don't carry guns.

Which is why we have less murder than in the US.

Can you answer a question? Why, in your opinion, is the murder rate in the USA so high?

Gangs and illegal drugs...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

10% of murderers disagree with you.
Again, 10% is a pretty big number given no one is suppsoed to have a gun. How do you explain that?

as long as guns aren't used he really doesn't care about how someone is murdered.

Oh, I care, believe me. But if someone tries to murder me with a candlestick or a rope or a piece of lead piping, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the encounter!

The good news for people in the UK is that over 90% potential murderers don't carry guns.

Which is why we have less murder than in the US.

Can you answer a question? Why, in your opinion, is the murder rate in the USA so high?

Oh, I care, believe me. But if someone tries to murder me with a candlestick or a rope or a piece of lead piping, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the encounter!

590 victims would disagree with you. Those are the people murdered without the use of a firearm in England and wales for the year of 2011
Murders in the UK

Can you answer a question? Why, in your opinion, is the murder rate in the USA so high?

I'm still trying to figure out how gun grabbers negate a murder unless it's with a firearm, how do you expect me to answer why idiots do the things they do?

 

[GuyPinestra]

Chicago’s murder numbers have hit that magic 500. Baltimore’s murder toll has passed 200. In Philly, it’s up to 324, the highest since 2007. In Detroit, it’s approaching 400, another record. In New Orleans, it’s almost at 200. New York City is down to 414 from 508. In Los Angeles, it’s over 500. In St. Louis it’s 113 and 130 in Oakland. It’s 121 in Memphis and 76 in Birmingham.

Washington, D.C., home of the boys and girls who can solve it all, is nearing its own big 100.

Those 12 cities alone account for nearly 3,200 dead and nearly a quarter of all murders in the United States. And we haven’t even visited sunny Atlanta or chilly Cleveland.

America Doesn’t Have a Gun Problem, It Has a Gang Problem

You should read the whole article, my Limey friend, a little education goes a long way.

 

[Bryllig]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

Hi. It seems to me that you have LOTS of guns in the US. I mean, staggeringly large numbers of guns. Here in the UK we have none (well, almost none - farmers have shotguns, and some police are armed), but I have never seen a gun in the UK (except in the hands of the police, but only at airpots) , nor do I know anyone that has fired one.

So it must be heaven for criminals in the UK - we must all be terrified of walking the streets at night?

Well, no. It's fine over here. In fact we have a far lower percentage of crime and far, far fewer people in prison than you do in the US.

So, in answer to your question "How are you going to get criminals to obey the law" the answer is most definitely NOT not by allowing everyone to have guns. You have tried that in the US and it has spectacularly failed.

So what does work? Well, unsurprisingly, the countries in the world with the lowest crime are the ones that invest in education and have efficient policing, who deal with people firmly but fairly.

That's your answer.

Thanks for your input. It's wrong, by the way.

Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.
Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes in the UK has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.15
Fact: Britan has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe, more so than the United States or even South Africa. They also have the second highest over all crime rate in the European Union. In 2008, Britan had a violent crime rate nearly five times higher than the United states (446 vs. 2034 pre 100,000 population).16
Fact: 67% of British residents surveyed believed that “As a result of gun and knife crime [rising], the area I live in is not as safe as it was five years ago.”17
Fact: U.K. street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.18
Fact: This trend continues in the U.K in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.
Fact: In 1919, before they had any gun control, the U.K. had a homicide rate that was 8% of the U.S. rate. By 1986, and after enacting significant gun control, the rate was 9% – practically unchanged.19
Fact: “... [There is] nothing in the statistics for England and Wales to suggest that either the stricter controls on handguns prior to 1997 or the ban imposed since have controlled access to such firearms by criminals.”20
Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is fundamentally flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there.21 To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.22
Fact: An ongoing parliamentary inquiry in Britain into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation – double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago – and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of 25 possesses or has access to a firearm. 23
Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.24
Fact: Handguns were used in 3,685 British offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%.25 It is interesting to note:
• Of the 20 areas with the lowest number of legal firearms, 10 had an above average level of “gun crime.”
• Of the 20 areas with the highest levels of legal guns, only 2 had armed crime levels above the average.
Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership.26
Fact: Over the last century, the British crime rate was largely unchanged. In the late nineteenth century, the per capita homicide rate in Britain was between 1.0 and 1.5 per 100,000.27 In the late twentieth century, after a near ban on gun ownership, the homicide rate is around 1.4.28 This implies that the homicide rate did not vary with either the level of gun control or gun availability.
Fact: The U.K. has strict gun control and a rising homicide rate of 1.4 per 100,000. Switzerland has the highest per capita firearm ownership rate on the planet (all males age 20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home) and has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. To date, there has never been a schoolyard massacre in Switzerland.29
Fact: “The scale of gun crime in the capital [London] has forced senior officers to set up a specialist unit to deal with ... shootings.”30
​

Hi. Thanks for all the facts!!

Fact 1: The rate of violent crime has risen. WRONG. It has fallen.
(You have to be careful with statistics, and avoid selecting the ones to prove your point, as they can be quoted out of context. Because crime goes up and down a bit over time, it would be easy to select a specific period where crime goes up and then state "crime has risen" or "crime has fallen" - which is what politicians do all the time - but if you look at the stats for violent crime for the UK over the last decade, there is a clear and obvious trend showing that violent crime is reducing in the UK. I could point out that it fell by 14% last year, which is a lot, but I would be guily of the same selective failing. Violent crime did rise a bit the year before, and fell the year before that.).

Fact 2: Firearm use has doubled since handguns were banned.
Again, you are wrong. The UK Police wrote a report for parliament summarising gun crime in the UK over the past decade. They said. "...the trend in total firearm offences recorded by the police since 1969 shows that these offences generally rose from the late 1990s to a peak of 24,094 offences in 2003/04. The number of firearm offences has fallen in each year since then with 11,227 offences recorded in 2010/11, 13% lower than the previous year and 53% below the peak of 2003/04. The proportion of all recorded crimes in which firearms, including air weapons, were used was 0.3% during 2010/11."

This shows a very clear and demonstratable REDUCTION in firearm use since handguns were banned.

Fact 3: Britain has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe.
Really???? You are kidding me!!! I have heard this trotted out several times, but repetition doesn't make it true.

The figures for murder in the UK last year was 550 (of which 39 were caused by a gun / firearm) in a country of over 62 million people.

Let me repeat. That is just 39 deaths by shooting. How does that compare to, say, New Jersey???

Fact 4: 67% of residents surveyed said that they were increasingly concerned by crime.

Well I agree that, we have newspapers in the UK that like to whip up a story, and the fear of crime is one of them. I am sure your statistic is correct - in that, probably, some survey or other achieved these statistics. But I'm also sure that surveys showing that 9 out of 10 women agree that a particular face cream reduces the appearence of wrinkles is also true.

Beware of selective surveys!!

Fact 5: UK street robberies soared in 2001.
I haven't checked, but you may be right. I refer back to my response to Fact 1. Selecting a single year out of the overall stats (and I notice you had to go back over a decade to find this one) is a bit arbitrary, and doesn't tell you anything about the overall pattern.

etc, etc, etc.

 

[Bryllig]

Do you believe that someone killed by a gun is somehow MORE dead than someone beaten to death with a tire iron?

Violent crime is violent crime. It doesn't matter what weapons, if any, are used. Stop trying to move the goalposts.

OK, let's move the goalposts back to where they were!

I agree with you 100% that murder is wrong, whether it involves a gun or a tire iron.

I am sure you agree with me when I say that guns are more effective killing weapons than tire irons.

And I agree with you that that, if my life was in danger by a crazed madman pointing a loaded gun at me, I would prefer to have a gun in my hand than a tire iron.

I am NOT a pacifist!!

The point we disagree on is - does arming the population reduce crime and make the streets safer, or does it increase crime and make the streets less safe?

And I am saying that if you compare the crime stats in the USA to the crime stats in the UK it very clearly shows that widespread gun ownership does not make peoples lives safer.

 

[Ernie S.]

Clutching at straws with the last one, aren't you?? A book about the murders in the city since 1847? Including the gang wars of the 1920s when literally a couple of dozen people died?.

Yes, there have been shootings in Sheffield. I never said that my city (with a population of half a million people) had no crime - just that the ownership of guns is really, really low compared to the US, and that I have never seen anyone carry a gun outside of Airport Police.

And yet the violent crime rate in the UK is really, really low compared to the US.

The point at issue here is "Does increasing gun ownership reduce crime?" - and the answer is, blatently, "No". - You have lots of guns in the USA, and one of the worst crime rates in the world. Having more guns hasn't made anyone any safer.

The threat of a homeowner owning a gun doesn't stop a desperate criminal from breaking into their home. It just makes it more likely that the criminal will ALSO carry a gun, for their own self-protection. And when the two meet and "self-protect" the hell out of each other until one of them lies dying and bleeding on the floor, what has that proved?

I am pointing out that the statistics are clear. The amount of violent crime does not reduce by increasing gun ownership (if it did, the USA would have the lowest crime stats in the world, and it doesn't, quite the reverse) - equally, violent crime does not increase if you reduce gun ownership (if that were true, then the UK would have the world's worst crime stats, and it doesn't - violent crime is falling and continuing to fall in the UK)

So, if you want to reduce criminal behaviour, you need to look at systems that work, not at who has a gun.

Really you say I'm the one clutching for straws? Let's address one of those links I posted from your news from the city you live in

A WORRIED hair stylist who runs a salon near to the scene of a New Year’s Day shooting in Sheffield said he is determined to sell up and move his business out of the area - as customers are being put off by the neighbourhood’s violent reputation.
James Worrall, who owns Love Your Hair, on London Road, said he has had to reduce prices in a bid to attract more trade and is struggling to keep staff. He also said the shooting - in which a 45-year-old man from Manor was fired at close to Hill Street - was ‘the last straw’.“Customers don’t want to come to the area,” he said.“It just seems like it’s getting more dangerous and a little bit menacing.“It definitely does feel like the last straw. People are frightened and upset.”James, aged 34, said he opened Love Your Hair on London Road in 2007, having previously run a salon in Beauchief.

Notice the bold? You're either the most ill informed person about what happens around him or a liar.

Hi. Thanks for the bold. That made it much clearer.

The problem is that when the newspaper that the area had "a violent reputation" you assumed that this meant guns. To you, violence and guns go hand in hand.

But you got it wrong. The Manor is a rough area of Sheffield. It is a violent area of the city - by which I mean that i would be careful walking around by myself late at night, because I might get mugged. And shop keepers are scared because they might get robbed. But this doen't involve guns!!!!!

People in the UK get mugged without guns being involved.
Shops get robbed without guns being involved.

Violent behaviour, and rough city streets do not have to have guns all over the place, as you have (incorrectly) assumed.

Well, there ya go. American gun owners have been saying for years that guns don't kill people; people kill people.
You don't have many guns, but you have murders and rapes and roberies, in other words, human nature.
There are people who have no respect for human life, personal property, a woman's right to nor be forced to have sex.... These things will happen whether there are guns available or not.
Making guns illegal will have no more effect on the number of violent crimes than making robbery, rape and murder illegal did.
The one effect making guns illegal WILL have, is it will make it harder for law abiding people to defend themselves from the criminals who will still be armed.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

OK, let's move the goalposts back to where they were!

I agree with you 100% that murder is wrong, whether it involves a gun or a tire iron.

I am sure you agree with me when I say that guns are more effective killing weapons than tire irons.

And I agree with you that that, if my life was in danger by a crazed madman pointing a loaded gun at me, I would prefer to have a gun in my hand than a tire iron.

I am NOT a pacifist!!

The point we disagree on is - does arming the population reduce crime and make the streets safer, or does it increase crime and make the streets less safe?

And I am saying that if you compare the crime stats in the USA to the crime stats in the UK it very clearly shows that widespread gun ownership does not make peoples lives safer.

No one but you has moved the goal post. How did you do that? by negating all murders unless it involves a firearm.

 

[Ernie S.]

10% of murderers disagree with you.
Again, 10% is a pretty big number given no one is suppsoed to have a gun. How do you explain that?

as long as guns aren't used he really doesn't care about how someone is murdered.

Oh, I care, believe me. But if someone tries to murder me with a candlestick or a rope or a piece of lead piping, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the encounter!

The good news for people in the UK is that over 90% potential murderers don't carry guns.

Which is why we have less murder than in the US.

Can you answer a question? Why, in your opinion, is the murder rate in the USA so high?

You'd have a much better chance of surviving if you had a gun, preferably with 30+ rounds of ammunition.